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Rustybolt
08-09-2011, 01:35 PM
I hope the current troubles have not found you, and you are all safe.
Along with all your stuff.

Blackadder
08-09-2011, 01:39 PM
Thanks for the thoughts Rusty

We are approx. 140 miles from London but only 9 from Nottingham, So we are keeping our heads down and hoping for the best


Stuart

shipto
08-09-2011, 01:43 PM
Its mostly a bunch of thieves using a bunch of idiots as police fodder while they cash in on the chance to steal some stuff.
Main Problem is some of the shops they have set light to have flats above them they are lucky they havent killed anyone yet.
Scumbags pure and simple.

madwilliamflint
08-09-2011, 03:22 PM
I hope the current troubles have not found you, and you are all safe.
Along with all your stuff.

Amen to that.

philbur
08-09-2011, 04:19 PM
Some would argue that, in the light of currently planned public budget cuts, the police have a vested interest in things going badly.

The problem with calling in the army to counter armed gangs rioting in the streets is that some might draw a comparison with the current unrest in Syria or Libya. Then some well meaning government would start arming the looters and arsonists with rocket launchers and providing air cover !!!!

Just a thought or two.

Phil:)

.RC.
08-09-2011, 05:45 PM
I thought the riots were in protest to Sir John hating bridgeports...

tdmidget
08-09-2011, 07:11 PM
It's a shame that you are not allowed to defend yourselves.

Pherdie
08-09-2011, 07:35 PM
The problem with calling in the army to counter armed gangs rioting in the streets is that some might draw a comparison with the current unrest in Syria or Libya.

While I would not argue that statement, I also offer that in some countries the military is not trained, nor equipped, as police are, in escalation of force (voice commands, batons, chemicals, instruments that deliver disabling shocks, etc.) that are possibly more effective in not further inflaming a situation beyond what is necessary to regain control. Without this training and equipment, the military is resigned to go from no action directly to 'shots fired' (possibly to the satisfaction of some).

I can say that in the U.S., many police now train in military tactics and conversely, military receive training for policing actions. I have no idea what is occurring in the UK as far this 'cross training'.

My heart goes out to all those that suffer and live in fear. May this madness end soon.

Peter.
08-09-2011, 07:37 PM
I'm at work in Central London and there's a van full of cops parked outside. Seems all quiet though and I'm not in fear of any danger. Things were a lot more lively yesterday but tonight I just heard the odd siren.

Seems that over in Ealing where there was a lot of looting and burning yesterday the locals have taken to the streets tooled up to defend their patch from further destruction.

Some youths in Nottingham have firebombed the local police station but only superficial damage and the few staff inside rushed out and made arrests top marks to them!

EddyCurr
08-09-2011, 08:01 PM
It's a shame that you are not allowed to defend yourselves.An ironic remark in light of the circumstances that ostensibly prompted
the ensuing chaos.

I haven't seen use of water cannons in recent public disturbances. Are
these out of fashion for some reason, now?

.

Mcgyver
08-09-2011, 08:09 PM
While I would not argue that statement, I also offer that in some countries the military is not trained, nor equipped, as police are, in escalation of force (voice commands, batons, chemicals, instruments that deliver disabling shocks, etc.) that are possibly more effective in not further inflaming a situation beyond what is necessary to regain control. Without this training and equipment, the military is resigned to go from no action directly to 'shots fired' (possibly to the satisfaction of some).
.

On one hand no one wants to see a day with hundreds of citizens lying bleeding and dead in the streets.....on the other hand I just can't accept this failing to escalate force to whatever is necessary to stop crimes in progress. Copious amounts of tear gas, rubber bullet machine guns? I'm not an expert in this area but I feel that looting, going on for an hour in front of police, requires escalation to whatever level it takes.

Our government here did the same thing for months if not years with native protesters occupying private property and with armed blockades of public roads. Whats being protested is irrelevant....but it seems like a form of terrorism when the government backs off of enforcing laws in the face of violence....in the sense that it encourages violence, destruction and unlawfulness as a legitimate means of political statement. What have you got when the government starts decided when and with whom they enforce the criminal act, or not.

I hope these crimes/acts of terrorism leave you and yours at least physically unscathed

Peter.
08-09-2011, 08:10 PM
There are no watercannons remaining in mainland UK. Northern Ireland have some still but ours were de-comissioned.


Shame, because we could do with some right now.

garagemark
08-09-2011, 08:29 PM
It is imperative to keep order in any country. Without some kind of order, lawlessness takes innocent lives and property. There are many ways to protest without damage. From what I see, most of these are just frenzy riots, and should not be tolerated. This is WAY different than Syria or Lybia. They are protesting severe oppression.

I'd be flying rubber bullets and water cannons. By the same token I would also hear out legitimate protests.... by peaceful protesters.

Innocent people do not deserve chite like this.

Mark

Peter.
08-09-2011, 08:46 PM
Plastic bullets (we call them baton rounds) were authorized for use. Haven't heard of any being deployed yet though.

J. R. Williams
08-09-2011, 08:49 PM
It is too bad the UK population has been disarmed. How can a shop owner protect his hard earned business? The police need to start firing real bullets and not rubber ones. Then leave the bodies piled up in the street. Now they have the mob running the show. Take no prisoners.

JRW

EddyCurr
08-09-2011, 08:58 PM
Shame, because we could do with some right now.Agreed.

What kind of property damage results when water cannons are used to
disperse crowds - I imagine the consequences to storefronts and inventory
can be considerable. Were claims for restitution successfully made against
the government?

Current reports indicate there is talk about deployment of plastic bullets.
The property damage from plastic bullets will be more contained than that
from water cannon. The consequences for those targeted (and others
unfortunate enough to find themselves in the line of fire) may be rather
elevated, however.

A study of the use of plastic bullets by the IDF in Gaza (http://www.ippnw.org/pdf/mgs/psr-2-1-schnitzer.pdf)

Toronto - June 26, 2010. Vancouver - June 15, 2011. Now Tottenham.
Odd how there are small groups of provocateurs who spring up seemingly
from nowhere to tap into the madness of crowds at these events.

.

EddyCurr
08-09-2011, 09:02 PM
It is too bad the UK population has been disarmed. How can a shop owner
protect his hard earned business? The police need to start firing real bullets
and not rubber ones. Then leave the bodies piled up in the street. Now they
have the mob running the show. Take no prisoners.

JRWRed armbands for the rioters and blue armbands for the civilians
defending their property so the authorities can determine whom to target.

.

Carld
08-09-2011, 09:13 PM
From the news reports I see here it looks like a bunch of thieves and hooligans out to steal and destroy. Since no one but Police have guns the citizens could use quarter staffs, clubs, chains, nun chucks, etc. against the rioters. The Cops could just carry off the fallen to jail or hospital.

lazlo
08-09-2011, 09:29 PM
This is WAY different than Syria or Lybia. They are protesting severe oppression.

Innocent people do not deserve chite like this.

+1 -- very important distinction. At one point in our history, we were protesting severe oppression as well...


I can say that in the U.S., many police now train in military tactics and conversely, military receive training for policing actions.

Lessons learned from the Civil War: the US military forces are banned from police action on US territory, unless specifically mandated by Congressional or Presidential order. Look up the Posse Comitatus Act.

Stay safe guys!

Evan
08-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Canadian police: "Stop or I'll shoot!"

USA police "Stop or I'll shoot again!"

UK police "Stop or I'll yell Stop again!"

lazlo
08-09-2011, 09:43 PM
That's hilarious Evan!

Mad Scientist
08-09-2011, 09:53 PM
With the problems in Britain we need to take a fresh look at how best to solve them. The old way of shooting looters and/or locking them up and throwing away the key is just way too primitive. The following article shows us a more modern approach.

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Tuesday, August 9, 2011

Given the fine example set in Libya, it follows that the rebels who expressed their grievances against the establishment last night by burning and looting half of London and other cities around the UK should swiftly be given their own embassy and declared the legitimate government of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
David Cameron and the Queen need to relinquish power immediately now that their authority to rule has been so clearly and justifiably undermined.
The actions by police to disperse these rebels also amounts to an international war crime and mandates an immediate humanitarian intervention from the NATO powers.
If Cameron and the Queen fail to step down and recognize the rebels as the legitimate government, US warplanes are on standby to enforce a “no fly zone” over Great Britain.
Reports are also circulating that NATO could target the Prime Minister and his entire family for assassination if he refuses to vacate London.
The rebels who are attempting to liberate themselves from a corrupt regime by ransacking JD Sports clothing outlets should be embraced, commended, and supported by the international community.

macona
08-09-2011, 09:55 PM
I am having a hard time grasping why this started. I know I guy got shot, but that happens everywhere. It seems there is something being intentionally left out. Is this mess race related?

Evan
08-09-2011, 10:06 PM
According to reports nobody knows why they are rioting, not even the rioters.

lazlo
08-09-2011, 10:09 PM
Is this mess race related?

Seems that way, although race is being carefully excluded from most reports. From what I'm reading, this is the English version of the LA riots.

Tottenham 2011 and Brixton 1981 – different ideals, similar lessons
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/tottenham-2011-brixton-1981

jkilroy
08-09-2011, 10:21 PM
You wont see much of that is *most* of the US, sure the eastern and western socialist welfare states will have plenty of it but here in the south? Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama etc.? Nah, I don't think so.

TGTool
08-09-2011, 10:54 PM
I rather presume in this situation John Stevenson is secretly urging them on in the hope that someone will break in and steal his POS Bridgeport which he can't get out of the shop any other way.

Black_Moons
08-09-2011, 11:05 PM
While the rioters who turned violent are definately breaking the law and should be condemed, you do realise the protest STARTED because the police did not even comment on the case where a man was shot, BY POLICE, and they said he shot first? Turned out, the round found in a police radio.. was police issue. IE: A cop shot a cop first, Then another cop shot an innocent man to death, Then people 2 days later went to ask cops ".. What happened?" And cops refused to awnser. People got upset after waiting 3 hours for.. Any kind of comment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns

"It is unforgivable police refused dialogue. We know the history here – how can Tottenham have a guy killed by police on Thursday, and resist requests for dialogue from the community 48 hours later?"

wierdscience
08-09-2011, 11:37 PM
But if your gonna cross the line and go from protester to looter/rioter why trash and burn businesses that had nothing to do with it?

Wouldn't logic dictate the police station be burned instead if outrage against the cops is really the reason?

Nah,this is just a good excuse to pillage/steal and burn.

RetiredFAE
08-09-2011, 11:43 PM
Canadian police: "Stop or I'll shoot!"

USA police "Stop or I'll shoot again!"

UK police "Stop or I'll yell Stop again!"


Las Vegas (NV) Metro Police say:

"I've stopped shooting, but I am going to shoot again as soon as I finish reloading, and.....,,,, what is this "Stop!!" BS?"

flylo
08-10-2011, 12:11 AM
You cam machine up a Sten pretty easy. Maybe time to fire up the mill & lathe!

Dawai
08-10-2011, 12:26 AM
Okay.. Nobody is Listening.. ATTACK PIGS.. them crazy muslims hate them...
Send a few pissed off Russian boars into the looters and see them disperse..

Or, as in the Zoot Suit rioters in LA, bring out the old Tommy gun..

Carld
08-10-2011, 12:40 AM
Those that see themselves as on the bottom and have nothing to lose are quick to riot. I still say, all they are interested in is destroying property and stealing. It's just a pent up emotion against everyone and the law.

When the USA goes bankrupt I hope the rioting won't happen but I really think it will. It always does when people don't have anything to lose.

Mad Scientist
08-10-2011, 12:41 AM
What Black Moons & wierdscience said follows reports that I have read. Originally some people were rightly upset over what had happened, but latter as others join in it evolved into being just an excuse to go out looting and burning businesses.

I realize Britain does not have a 2nd amendment, but still have the people and shop owners been so neutered that it is now unthinkable for them to get together grab some sticks or pipes, whatever, and defend their property or go to the aid of a person being attacked by these mobs?

Carld
08-10-2011, 01:06 AM
A report I saw on TV showed them cleaning the street and they said they were going to try to defend their areas against the looters. I bet the police work extra hard to keep them apart.

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 01:09 AM
What Black Moons & wierdscience said follows reports that I have read. Originally some people were rightly upset over what had happened, but latter as others join in it evolved into being just an excuse to go out looting and burning businesses.

I realize Britain does not have a 2nd amendment, but still have the people and shop owners been so neutered that it is now unthinkable for them to get together grab some sticks or pipes, whatever, and defend their property or go to the aid of a person being attacked by these mobs?

Protip: Don't give people excuses to riot.

Now I just wish our locals would'nt consider 'losing a hocky game' as an excuse to riot.. -_-, But some riots could be more easily avoided in the first place if police would act with more decency and transparency. Remember, they are here to serve YOU, the public. Not the government!

Evan
08-10-2011, 01:11 AM
I realize Britain does not have a 2nd amendment, but still have the people and shop owners been so neutered that it is now unthinkable for them to get together grab some sticks or pipes, whatever, and defend their property or go to the aid of a person being attacked by these mobs?

They are. Aluminum baseball bats sales on Amazon UK have gone up 5000 percent since last week and are now one of the top selling "sports" items. Merchants in some areas have driven off rioters.

The rioters are almost entirely young people under the age of 25. The vast majority have not graduated from high school and have never held a job. There are no jobs for them. They have attacked police stations, they firebombed the Nottingham station last night. They attack mainly those who have money in their own neighbourhoods, that being the merchants. Asked why they are doing it the reply goes something like "Eff off, we're 'avin a bit of fun."

Peter.
08-10-2011, 01:23 AM
Right this is a precis of whats started it off, might not be 100% correct but it'll give you the jist.

There was a covert police surveillance operation watching known criminals, dealers of drugs & arms. For whatever reason they went to detain this guy (who has in the past happily posed in typical 'gangsta' photos complete with gun). He was carrying a gun with him in the car, with a live round in the breech - a converted weapon but live nonetheless.
He got shot twice, once in the arm - the bullet that ended-up lodged in the cop's radio and once in the chest which was fatal. Same police weapon fired both bullets. The dead guy never fired his own gun and it's not clear yet whether he had it drawn. This all happened in Tottenham - a depressed suburb of London, has good areas and bad like most places.
The family of the dead guy demanded explainations from police who did nothing, so they (and others) mounted a protest outside the Police station. Initially it was quiet but somehow it got out of hand and things escalated into a riot in which shops got smashed & looted.

Now the rest of the story isn't really about that incident. What happened was people realised that during the riot shops got looted and folks were getting away with goods for free. The details aren't known as of yet but it looks like news got around on social networking sites (actually the finger is being pointed for now at the non-public blackberry messaging system, which makes sense because phone providers have been giving away free Blackberrys with low-value contracts for some time now) and these do-nothing-got-nothing folk have been organising riots across town in order to loot clothes and electrical shops mainly. Once word got around more people joined in and it then has spread to towns and cities across the country. The usual form has been to look a store of it's goods then torch it to remove the evidence and keep the emergency services there whilst the looters moves areas.

The main looting and arson hasn't been about civil unrest no matter what the press would have you think, it's been pure and simple organised destruction for the sole purpose of looting goods. A BBC reporter & camera crew actually had people carrying large bags approach them to ask whereabouts the riots were happening - they wanted in on the looting action and didn't know where to find it. Arrests have already been made of people inciting others on places like Facebook to riot, and you can bet your life there's much more of that to follow. Let's hope they nick as many as possible.

London was pretty calm last night. Manchester suffered some rioting and other towns & cities too but in a much more minor way.

Brett Hurt
08-10-2011, 01:28 AM
send the California highway petrol or in ca as they are known THE CHP they well fix it in one day and back them up LAPD . It would be like the texaxs rangers 1 riot one ranger

HomeRangers TodayVisitorsEducationResearch CenterHistoryHall of FameFamily HistoryBanquet RentalsContact Us
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Standard Issue Field Equipment

Ranger Dudley White, Jr.
with 1950s horse trailer and issued equipment.
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The following equipment was issued to active duty Texas Rangers in the late 1990's by the State of Texas.

As in the 19th century, the Texas Rangers' most valuable assets are the training and experience they carry into the field and their knowledge of people.

Special Thanks to Sgt. Matt Cawthon, retired and Capt. Clete Buckaloo, retired, for their assistance.


Transport

In addition to their issued vehicles, Texas Rangers have access to Texas Department of Public Safety helicopters, airplanes, armored personnel carriers -- and horses. State-issued Sedan or 4-Wheel Drive
Motorola X900 Radio with siren
Red Light
Battery Cable

Electronics Dell Notebook Computer
Sony Digital Camera
Motorola Saber III Portable Radio
Marantz PM0201 Tape Recorder
Sony Micro cassette Recorder
Cellular Phone & Charger
Video Camera
Copier

Cameras, Optics & Illumination Canon F1 Camera
Camera Tripod
Bushnell Binoculars
Flashlight
Mela Beam Hand Spotlight

Firearms & Defensive Gear

Rangers are permitted to carry any sidearms they chose as long as they can qualify on a regular basis. Most favor the department issue .357 cal. Sig Sauer, or .45 cal. Colt Automatics. Sig Sauer P226 Pistol
Ruger Mini-14 Automatic Rifle
Remington 12 Ga. Shotgun
Gas Mask
Body Armor
ASP Baton
Kevlar Helmet

Restraints Smith & Wesson Handcuffs
Leg Irons
Transport Belt
Belt Rig with Buckle

Kits & Tools Fingerprint Kit
First Aid Kit
Tool Box
Evidence Kit
Webb Gear
Bolt Cutters

Clothing

Clothing is by personal discretion,
with Western-style preferred - white hats, western-style buckles and boots
are a tradition. Raid Jacket
Coveralls
Parka Jacket
BDUs (Fatigues)
Other

Service Badge, I.D. & Funds Gold badge for Captains
Silver badge for Lieutenants and Sergeants Department Credit Cards
Or let the ranger do it they come with equipment
But iam sorry about it I was in the west end last year for 2 weeks

The Artful Bodger
08-10-2011, 01:34 AM
Los Angeles riots, death toll 50+? UK riots, death toll?

Now what could the difference be? Hmmmmmmm!!!!:rolleyes:

Carld
08-10-2011, 01:40 AM
Los Angeles, 50+ less rioters. UK, still same number of rioters.

Peter.
08-10-2011, 01:44 AM
No guns :)

Here's an interview of two girls explaining why they were rioting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

wierdscience
08-10-2011, 02:06 AM
Don't worry,given time the riots will burn themselves out........probably after they run out of stuff to burn.

Evan
08-10-2011, 02:22 AM
The idea of opening fire on the rioters is ridiculous. It isn't worth even mentioning as if it were some sort of alternative.

While there may not be any water riot cannons still available I bet there are a few spare airport fire trucks with foam cannons that could be borrowed. That would put a quick damper on the crowds and probably screw up the blackberrys at the same time.

The Artful Bodger
08-10-2011, 02:29 AM
The idea of opening fire on the rioters is ridiculous. It isn't worth even mentioning as if it were some sort of alternative.

While there may not be any water riot cannons still available I bet there are a few spare airport fire trucks with foam cannons that could be borrowed. That would put a quick damper on the crowds and probably screw up the blackberrys at the same time.


Especially if they used the old blood and bone foaming additives...:D

Evan
08-10-2011, 02:43 AM
They could also borrow some sound systems with 1000 watt amps and big horn speakers and play opera.

macona
08-10-2011, 03:08 AM
Turned out, the round found in a police radio.. was police issue.

From what I am reading their determination that it was a police round was solely based on it being a full metal jacket round. Lets see, 9mm round in mp5 is the same caliber as the other guys .380.

Now I don't know if his weapon was single fire or what. So who knows. But more of the same half stories.

Peter.
08-10-2011, 03:13 AM
No, the police spokesman said on BBC news last night that forensics had identified the origin of both bullets.

Allan Waterfall
08-10-2011, 03:16 AM
News this morning says that rioters have killed three people in a hit and run incident.

Allan

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 03:27 AM
News this morning says that rioters have killed three people in a hit and run incident.

Allan

Drive by rioting? I allways thought riots where a pedestrian event.

I think the news is just trying to blame a hit and run on rioters. a hit and run.. is a hit and run.

yf
08-10-2011, 03:37 AM
Didn't Napoleon say "A mere whiff of grapeshot" after cutting down scores of rioters with cannon?

Seems like England needs a Napoleon.

Peter.
08-10-2011, 03:38 AM
The three Asians were part of a local community crowd gathering to fend off looters from their area. The driver deliberately mounted the pavement (sidewalk) and drove through the crowd at speed before continuing on. News reports say a person (assumedly the owner or driver) is under arrest and are treating it as a murder investigation.

malbenbut
08-10-2011, 04:28 AM
Riots will not happen in the two nearest cities to me, Newcastle on Tyne and Sunderland. We appreciate our cities to much to destroy them.
I dont think any riots will happen north of the border in Scotland for the same reason. Its not Muslims that is doing the rioting but blacks of African and West Indian descent.
MBB

The Artful Bodger
08-10-2011, 04:52 AM
Didn't Napoleon say "A mere whiff of grapeshot" after cutting down scores of rioters with cannon?

Seems like England needs a Napoleon.


I can see where you are coming from.............


..........and I hope you go straight back there.

Evan
08-10-2011, 05:09 AM
Its not Muslims that is doing the rioting but blacks of African and West Indian descent.

I see just as many white faces in the pictures from the Telegraph.

mike4
08-10-2011, 05:33 AM
I rather presume in this situation John Stevenson is secretly urging them on in the hope that someone will break in and steal his POS Bridgeport which he can't get out of the shop any other way.

With his cnc experience , looters had better watch out ,that "flexible POS" may be set in attack mode.

Seriously I hope all goes well for members and their families in this testing time.
Michael

small.planes
08-10-2011, 07:00 AM
I haven't seen use of water cannons in recent public disturbances. Are
these out of fashion for some reason, now?


A bit late, but I think the Hosepipe ban prevents them being used
:D ;) :p :D

Dave

aboard_epsilon
08-10-2011, 07:23 AM
According to reports nobody knows why they are rioting, not even the rioters.

American exported rap and hip hop has poisend their brains.
the great god Nike-Reebok has ordered them to follow the Audi TT Directive.

I dont understand them, most dont speak English they speak hiphop slang...you have to grow huge bottom lips to be able to speak it..so the media have no understanding of them either.

all the best.markj

Richard Wilson
08-10-2011, 07:50 AM
[QUOTE=Black_Moons]While the rioters who turned violent are definately breaking the law and should be condemed, you do realise the protest STARTED because the police did not even comment on the case where a man was shot, BY POLICE, and they said he shot first? Turned out, the round found in a police radio.. was police issue. IE: A cop shot a cop first, Then another cop shot an innocent man to death, Then people 2 days later went to ask cops ".. What happened?" And cops refused to awnser. People got upset after waiting 3 hours for.. Any kind of comment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns

Its still a bit unclear, but the dead man was not unarmed, he was carrying a handgun. He was killed by a shot to the head, and also had a bullet wound in a bicep. Its this bullet which appears to have travelled on and lodged in a police radio carried by another officer. I haven't seen any information on which of the 2 shots was fired first, the fatal one or the non fatal one. I also don't know if both shots were fired by one officer, or if 2 separate officers fired.

In my book, if you are on the street carrying an illegal firearm for no legitimate purpose, and you get shot by the police, you have only yourself to blame.
The first riot may have had some link to this incident but the current riots have no link at all, just a bunch of tearaways taking the opportunity to destroy or steal other peoples property. And now 3 people, out as part of a group defending property from the mob, have been killed in a hit and run incident.
I'd send in the army, and I don't care if the rioters get hurt. The hell with their 'human rights', they shouldn't have any.

Richard

Dawai
08-10-2011, 08:20 AM
Reply>

In my book, if you are on the street carrying an illegal firearm for no legitimate purpose, and you get shot by the police, you have only yourself to blame.
The first riot may have had some link to this incident but the current riots have no link at all, just a bunch of tearaways taking the opportunity to destroy or steal other peoples property. And now 3 people, out as part of a group defending property from the mob, have been killed in a hit and run incident.
I'd send in the army, and I don't care if the rioters get hurt. The hell with their 'human rights', they shouldn't have any.
Richard

At First I didn't agree, being a "legally Ordained Member of Society that can carry a firearm concealed"... then.. the "illegal" part sunk in.. I have been told by "people" my 300lb, bearded, tattooed appearance would get me "tased" before they asked if I had a license for the weapon I carry.

BUT.. A point has been made that I speed-read over the first time.. Illegal.. Kinda like when that "17 year old CHILD" was walking down to the liquor store with his buddies and had his 9mm in his belt.. he got into a shoot out with the Chattanooga Police and was killed.. Where are these "Children's parents?" Who allows their child to carry a 9mm to the liquor store down the block?? There was a uprising there at the Housing projects over this. Luckily there was cameras on the street.

I, you, were not there at the Policemans shooting of the suspect.. He may very well have deserved it, or maybe he was just "scary" and the Police put him down for questioning??

HERE'S one for this discussion... A new 360 lens for the Apple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o8AAOtOiPQ&playnext=1&list=PL42C52FC12DA52A6C Put one of these on every policemans shoulder.

I had a wrecker, due to the fact that policemen "graft" extortion money from wrecker drivers that deal in cash, I was afraid to drive it. Give a policeman power, and he can be judge and jury before you hit the court, cost you legal fees beyond what you can pay.. Monitor that power, and you can then make him accountable for his actions. All the crooked policemen then would have to become politicians to "steal money honestly".

EddyCurr
08-10-2011, 08:51 AM
I haven't seen use of water cannons in recent public disturbances.
Are these out of fashion for some reason, now?There are no watercannons remaining in mainland UK. Northern
Ireland have some still but ours were de-comissioned.

Shame, because we could do with some right now.While there may not be any water riot cannons still available I bet
there are a few spare airport fire trucks with foam cannons that
could be borrowed. That would put a quick damper on the crowds
and probably screw up the blackberrys at the same time.A bit late, but I think the Hosepipe ban prevents them being used

DaveHoses have now been authorized


London riots: David Cameron approves water cannon (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692996/London-riots-David-Cameron-approves-water-cannon.html)
By Andrew Porter
The Telegraph 2011.08.10

The Prime Minister said water cannon – until now only ever seen in
the UK in Ulster - will be available at 24 hours notice to deal with the
“despicable violence” being carried out in cities across the country.


"At 24 hrs notice" ?

Must take a while to fill them up ...

.

Rustybolt
08-10-2011, 08:52 AM
Those that see themselves as on the bottom and have nothing to lose are quick to riot. I still say, all they are interested in is destroying property and stealing. It's just a pent up emotion against everyone and the law.

When the USA goes bankrupt I hope the rioting won't happen but I really think it will. It always does when people don't have anything to lose.


Of course it will, Carl. When societies perpetuate a permanent victimhood class, this is what results. Arson and looting in England and violent flashmobs here in the U.S.
At any rate I hope all is well with you and your shop. We,ve all put a lot of ourselves and our treasure in it to see it destroyed.

EddyCurr
08-10-2011, 09:19 AM
The idea of opening fire on the rioters is ridiculous. It isn't worth even
mentioning as if it were some sort of alternative.As you know, this is a long standing option for dealing with looters when
martial law is imposed. There were claims that Mayor Ray Nagin of
New Orleans gave such orders in 2005 following Hurricane Katrina


After Katrina, Cops Given OK to Shoot Looters (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/25/national/main6804049.shtml)

Mind you, sending charging pairs of armoured vehicles along the streets
indiscriminately into crowds, as has been done now in the London riots
barely seems a more humane means of dispersing unruly mobs.

.

Peter.
08-10-2011, 09:23 AM
Charging AT crowds, not into them is what I've seen. I followed about 8 of those armoured trucks down the motorway towards home this morning. Dunno how much they weigh but they look damned heavy and formiddable. I wouldn't want to be facing one down.

Evan
08-10-2011, 09:38 AM
As you know, this is a long standing option for dealing with looters when
martial law is imposed. There were claims that Mayor Ray Nagin of
New Orleans gave such orders in 2005 following Hurricane Katrina

Well then, who do you shoot in this picture?

http://ixian.ca/pics9/looter.jpg

Roof top sniper? Or just open fire indiscriminately?

EddyCurr
08-10-2011, 09:43 AM
I followed about 8 of those armoured trucks down the motorway
towards home this morning. Dunno how much they weigh but they
look damned heavy and formiddable. I wouldn't want to be facing one
down.Nor would I, but you and I presumably are still in possession of a certain
degree of reason.

Will Tottenham or some other borough see people inspired by the Tank Man
of Tiananmen Square (and disposessed of his faculties) attempt a standoff?
In the event that they do and the armoured vehicles stop - then the mob
wins. If the vehicles fail to stop, the inevitable casualties will serve as
further incitement and the mob 'wins', too.

.

EddyCurr
08-10-2011, 10:19 AM
Well then, who do you shoot in this picture?The most vulnerable person is the young girl wearing the dark hoodie
standing at the threshold of the entry.

Clearly, without the armband scheme for identification of rioters and civilians
I proposed tongue-in-cheek back in post #17, fulfillment of such an edict
is made more difficult for right-thinking members of the constabulary.

The article about circumstances in Katrina gives some insight into the
state of mind of authorities at different levels when they are faced with
conflicting and incomplete information during a crisis.


Roof top sniper? Or just open fire indiscriminately?Well, if the approach were based on the zero tolerance model of policing
displayed during the Toronto G20 summit, indiscriminate fire after corralling
the crowd in a cul-de-sac. Perhaps recalling General Dyer's command of
events in Amritsar.

.

Rustybolt
08-10-2011, 10:23 AM
They could also borrow some sound systems with 1000 watt amps and big horn speakers and play opera.



They'd only get stolen.


You, my son, have no idea of the resourcefulness of the average member of the urban underclass.
Just recently some stalwart citizens of one of our quaint villages managed to make away with several central air conditioning units. Lifting them over a six foot fence. From a church no less.
can I get an AMEN!

Carld
08-10-2011, 10:25 AM
When you look at the rioting anywhere it all boils down to those that are living off the government rioting because the government is not giving them more. The socialist programs that have been going on for 100 or more years are finally coming to a head.

You start giving people money for doing nothing and they will riot when you stop paying or cut the pay or feel they deserve more. Yes, as the governments around the world go bankrupt the poor living off socialist programs will rise up. Look at what happened in Turkey and other countries.

If the Congress, Senate and President keep spending and taxing and borrowing we too will go bankrupt. From all indications the Democrats don't think we can or will go bankrupt if we keep the same path we're on.

The riots in England are just the beginning of the trouble the Brit's will have and other countries are not far behind. Those on government relief may start a riot but it starts a life of it's own.

People don't have the compassion, restraint and respect of others property they did in the last Great Depression and when it happens in this day and time it will be extremely nasty and dangerous. There is not enough police and armys to put down a real riot that is going on all over a nation.

It does seem to be that this riot was started by police arrogance which doesn't surprise me at all. Police everywhere are arrogant and power hungry. A driving force of most police officers is to have power over others. It's a basic nature of humans. While most officers say they want to serve the public the underling thing is power in most cases. Few officers are laid back easy going and not power hungry. You will find those in small towns more than big cities.

wierdscience
08-10-2011, 10:31 AM
They'd only get stolen.


You, my son, have no idea of the resourcefulness of the average member of the urban underclass.
Just recently some stalwart citizens of one of our quaint villages managed to make away with several central air conditioning units. Lifting them over a six foot fence. From a church no less.
can I get an AMEN!

Stole the AC from a church?There is only one fix then-Zombieland:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8faZ9LRors&NR=1

Circlip
08-10-2011, 10:35 AM
A few years ago, a couple of enterprising ex plods came up with a substance called "Smart Water" This is a liquid which can be misted onto those little darlings who break and enter for the purpose of theivery, via a sprinkler system triggered by entry. It would appear that this stuff seems to stain for a long time and can be "Lit up" by shining a suitable light beam on it.

Now the simple brain doesn't need to go into overdrive to realise that if some hairy a**ed copper has given you a squirt of this stuff from something dangerous like a high powered water pistol, they can then arrest at leasure.

Serious news for the rubber neckers, If you light up, you're part of the problem so don't complain if you're nicked.

Why don't the parents get involved??


Cos it's always some bugger elses kids.


Regards Ian.

Carld
08-10-2011, 10:38 AM
Hell, in Lou. Ky this summer one church had 6 outside AC units stolen TWICE.

lazlo
08-10-2011, 10:39 AM
Lets see, 9mm round in mp5 is the same caliber as the other guys .380.

Wow, they shot him with a submachine gun??


Now I don't know if his weapon was single fire or what. So who knows. But more of the same half stories.

He had some kind of toy gun that was jury rigged to fire a live round. From what I've read, it hadn't been fired.

EddyCurr
08-10-2011, 10:40 AM
They could also borrow some sound systems with 1000 watt amps
and big horn speakers and play opera.They'd only get stolen.The current weapon of choice for policing crowd control in North America
is the LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) designed by American Technology
Corporation.

These were deployed at the G20 summits in Pittsburgh '09 and Toronto '10.
A search reveals they were even used to help break up a college block
party at Western Illinois University '11.

.

Peter.
08-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Wow, they shot him with a submachine gun??


Yes - but...


Unlike the versions used by the SAS/SBS, all MP5s used by British police are single fire / semi-automatic only. Low capacity (15 9mm rounds apposed to the usual 30) magazines are also often used. Hollow-point rounds are used to prevent over-penetration - rounds passing through a target or wall and hitting a bystander.

BillTodd
08-10-2011, 10:48 AM
A few years ago, a couple of enterprising ex plods came up with a substance called "Smart Water" This is a liquid which can be misted onto those little darlings who break and enter for the purpose of theivery, via a sprinkler system triggered by entry. It would appear that this stuff seems to stain for a long time and can be "Lit up" by shining a suitable light beam on it.

Now the simple brain doesn't need to go into overdrive to realise that if some hairy a**ed copper has given you a squirt of this stuff from something dangerous like a high powered water pistol, they can then arrest at leasure.

Serious news for the rubber neckers, If you light up, you're part of the problem so don't complain if you're nicked.

Why don't the parents get involved??


Cos it's always some bugger elses kids.


Regards Ian.

Great idea, Ian :)

I wondered about spraying a dye from water cannon or perhaps paint-ball guns; Something that will ruin expensive trainers! - nothing will stop a kid quicker than away taking his trainers :)

lazlo
08-10-2011, 10:52 AM
When the USA goes bankrupt I hope the rioting won't happen but I really think it will. It always does when people don't have anything to lose.

You've been watching too much Glenn Beck :) You realize the US has less debt ratio than the UK, Australia, and most (all?) the European nations?

As of 2000, we had a pretty reasonable national debt of $7 trillion, but more than doubled the debt from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the Wall Street bailouts.

Thruthefence
08-10-2011, 11:20 AM
"Burn, Baby, Burn!"

- H.R. Brown, 1968

philbur
08-10-2011, 11:20 AM
I see no arsonists or looters so nobody. If the guy is throwing a petrol bomb or running out of a shop with a 42" flat screen under his arm then that may be a different matter.

In a riot the issue is to regain control, you use the minimum force necessary, but you must regain control.

If you have 16,000 policemen and 16,000 rioters you arrest them. If you have 100 policemen and 16,000 rioters you shot a few.

Phil:)


Well then, who do you shoot in this picture?

http://ixian.ca/pics9/looter.jpg

Roof top sniper? Or just open fire indiscriminately?

aboard_epsilon
08-10-2011, 11:23 AM
Great idea, Ian :)

I wondered about spraying a dye from water cannon or perhaps paint-ball guns; Something that will ruin expensive trainers! - nothing will stop a kid quicker than away taking his trainers :)
already done ..and the UK police do have it

glows under ultraviolet light ..and has a unique DNA in it for every batch ...and takes a month to scrub off
http://www.redwebsecurity.com/products/forensic-tagging

http://www.redwebsecurity.com/products/reddna-offender-id


was invented in wales ///well the DNA idea was applied to it .

all the best.markj

Evan
08-10-2011, 12:47 PM
Reminds me of an incident in Vancouver quite a few years ago that made the news. Some loser decided to rob a bank. He succeeded, after a fashion. The teller gave him the bait money roll which is a roll of small bills held with an elastic band. In the middle is a special exploding dye packet that is armed by squeezing the roll as it is handed over.

The perp stuffed it down the front of his pants and ran out of the bank.

He was easy to identify when found a block away rolling around on the sidewalk in some degree of pain.

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2011, 12:51 PM
There are three problems oportunistic thieves seeing a store open with lots of cell phones jewelery etc is just too much of a temtation even for non criminals .Then gangs of trouble makers and anti authority types hell bent on making and causing as much carnage as possible.And genuinely groups angry at yet another person being shot in London there seems to be lots of Black people killed whilst in police custody lies are told by the police re why they were shot I.E we thought he was pointing a gun from three feet away when he was holding a mars bar.people also being taken into police custody and falling dow stairs even when the pathologist said they were killed unlawfully by strangulation and beating the police get away with some very flimsy excuses.Always repeat always whatever happens the police are found not guilty and get away with virtually murder.I have never known even with the demenezes case when a young man was killed mistakenly shot numerous times without warning,when the police changed there story several times and lied blatantly ,the police all got away scot free. Its about time someone said enough is enough ,and then went on peaceful protest ,but the violent thugs came along too, as did the opportunistic thieves normally not criminals saw the police inaction and merchandise thrown around is simply too much of a temptation. When police get charged and jailed for unlawful killing this will go away.And Evan it's not funny I don't want to see kids shot dead for stealing.The penal;ty for theft is not and should not be death

TGTool
08-10-2011, 12:53 PM
The problem I have with the "just shoot a few and let that be a lesson to them" principle of societal management is thinking through the general to the specific.

If you had, for instance, a group of 30 convicted murderers and shot a few one could say this just hastened the already ordained execution. (I'll gloss over the capital punishment issue here altogether.) If you had a mixed group of murderers and tax cheats, and some tax cheats died it might be unjust but some could rationalize that away.

If you have a just a group of people like those in the current riots, there's no way to know a priori who might be guilty of repeated thefts, who might be innocent but contemplating crime, and who might have been just walking the street when surrounded by an unruly crowd. So the "just shoot a few" argument would say maybe it's too bad that a completely innocent passerby is killed to make an example, but that's just the price for order in society.

So it's still acceptable for society to invoke that to protect US (upstanding citizens) from THEM, collateral damage notwithstanding. So, if that's acceptable, what are the acceptable limits? The IRS knows there are tax cheats and tries to prosecute those it finds, but would it be acceptable to simply jail some taxpayers as an example to the rest? What if the police arrested YOU and the IRS threw you in jail as an example to others, even if you were completely innocent of any tax evasion?

It seems to me that this is where the "screw 'em, they deserve it" philosophy breaks down. So long as I'm in the group on top it's okay, but what if that were to change? If as a Protestant it's okay to bash Catholics, or as a Christian it's okay to bash Muslims, what happens if the demographics were to shift. This isn't completely hypothetical if you look at trends in Hispanic populations, for instance. It's not inconceivable that I might wind up living in an area with a minority white population where power had shifted and civil rights for whites (or Protestants or blonds or heterosexuals or whatever) could be easily dispensed with.

Our country was built on the ethic of the rule of law and equality under the law because that's the only way that abuse and repression can be avoided for even the majority in the long haul. If I consent to any limitation of rights for any group I open the door to loss of my own. I'd hate to see that happen.

Evan
08-10-2011, 12:57 PM
And Evan it's not funny I don't want to see kids shot dead for stealing.The penal;ty for theft is not and should not be death

That is the point I have been making.

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2011, 01:01 PM
Thanks your a good man as usual .Alistair

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 01:18 PM
Derp at people suggesting to shoot the rioters. It was shooting innocent people that STARTED the riots, Do you really think shooting a few more is gonna make em go "oh, sorry mate, did'nt know you where serious about dis shooting people thing, lets all go home because apparently the cops are on our side after all!"

macona
08-10-2011, 01:22 PM
It was shooting innocent people that STARTED the riots

That remains to be seen. There is more to the story than what has been let on.

shipto
08-10-2011, 01:23 PM
A few years ago, a couple of enterprising ex plods came up with a substance called "Smart Water" This is a liquid which can be misted onto those little darlings who break and enter for the purpose of theivery, via a sprinkler system triggered by entry. It would appear that this stuff seems to stain for a long time and can be "Lit up" by shining a suitable light beam on it.

Now the simple brain doesn't need to go into overdrive to realise that if some hairy a**ed copper has given you a squirt of this stuff from something dangerous like a high powered water pistol, they can then arrest at leasure.

Serious news for the rubber neckers, If you light up, you're part of the problem so don't complain if you're nicked.

Why don't the parents get involved??


Cos it's always some bugger elses kids.


Regards Ian.
Good idea but i think that the shops should have some kind of misting system so that when they get broken into it sprays by the door and windows.
anyone lighting up then would be a looter or at the very least guilty of illegal entry. with the dna signature the police could even pinpoint which shops they went into.

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 01:26 PM
You, my son, have no idea of the resourcefulness of the average member of the urban underclass.
Just recently some stalwart citizens of one of our quaint villages managed to make away with several central air conditioning units. Lifting them over a six foot fence. From a church no less.
can I get an AMEN!

AMEN! Im glad to see the church is giving to the needy in this time of crisis.

Who needs AC more anyway, Poor people who spend most of thier time at home, Or a church only used 1 day a week?

Mcgyver
08-10-2011, 01:28 PM
There are three problems oportunistic thieves seeing a store open with lots of cell phones jewelery etc is just too much of a temtation even for non criminals .

I don't agree with the last bit, if the temptation is too great that person reveals their true colours and is a criminal. Its a criminal in act of crime and must be stopped. That individual person or flat screen doesn't matter in the grand scheme, but postponing or selectively ignoring the duty of government to protect property is a big crack in the foundation of our western democracies. It just can't be tolerated or you should expect it to happen much much more, for either personal gain or political statement.


I see no arsonists or looters so nobody. If the guy is throwing a petrol bomb or running out of a shop with a 42" flat screen under his arm then that may be a different matter.

In a riot the issue is to regain control, you use the minimum force necessary, but you must regain control.

If you have 16,000 policemen and 16,000 rioters you arrest them. If you have 100 policemen and 16,000 rioters you shot a few.

Phil:)

I don't disagree with what you say. Does a non-rioter, say a merchant in his store or innocent living in flat have to die in the one of fires or attacks first? If you had to shoot some, the possible targets would be the ones trying to run down the merchants in a car, the ones leaving a store with looted goods, the ones assaulting police, the ones setting fire to cars and buildings, not a bunch of people standing around as in the photo

It would be a sad day for Britain to shoot one, but otoh they are felons in midst of committing crimes and refuse police orders to stop. A fleeing felon or one in the act of a crime shouldn't be characterized as an innocent student. that ship sailed when they threw the brick, lite the building or took the TV

Really though it would be an awful thing to start shooting.....maybe though allowing criminals to run rampant with violence and destruction right in front of the police is a more awful thing. You'd think there a many more aggressive tactics between standing around and the lead flying that should have brought to bear earlier, as well as some sort of emergency measures/curfew etc....point being i don't want to see people shot either but force (lots alternatives to guns) should have escalated quickly to regain control.

Dawai
08-10-2011, 01:41 PM
Shooting a thief? Okay.. I know of a few cases where Old people had thier retirement checks stolen till they died unable to pay doctor bills, rent, food bills..

Sometimes a theft can be a death sentence.. as I asked Evan once about "someone just stealing a chainsaw".. does he have wood heat? what would be the consequences of not being able to heat your home?? A theft can sometimes trigger a chain of events.

Thieves just suck out loud. People should post cameras.. perhaps animal "RF ID" tags shot into the "masked" banditos?? I can think of a few compounds shot with a dart gun that would "change the skin color" of Perps.. It's that PURPLE guy over there.. that's him.. those are also hard on the kidneys tho..

I've worked my whole life for what I have, someone taking it to continue a drug habit? Not my idea of a good time.

The chinese gun shop owners during the LA riots defended their property rightfully.. What would have been the consequences if a truckload of weapons and ammo was turned loose to hotheads??

AS SUBJECTS OF THE CROWN, thou... OUR brothers over there don't have that option. Kneel befo the Royalty boys..

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 01:50 PM
The chinese gun shop owners during the LA riots defended their property rightfully.. What would have been the consequences if a truckload of weapons and ammo was turned loose to hotheads??


... Ohhhh... Can't resist... Urge... to comment....

You mean like what happens every day in the US with the continious, never ending gun shows that have lobbyed and recived exceptions on the backround checks and waiting periods in the USA and sell assult rifles and fully automatic machine guns with ammo? (Exceptions granted because gun shows where supposed to be just a couple day event then move on, Where as they are now year round events and replaced gun stores because less restrictions)

Where regulation is so lax, Someone actualy handed a 8 year old kid a fully automatic, loaded machine gun (Uzi).. Where he proceeded to fire it.. And fire it.. And fire it... Yaknow, just one trigger pull... Things have a nasty recoil though.. every shot.. higher.. and higher.. And whoops, Shoot himself in the head.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/t/boy-accidentally-kills-self-gun-show/

Personaly, I would'nt give an 8 year old an airsoft/paintball gun, let alone an uzi.

America: the consequences of a truckload of weapons and ammo that was turned loose to hotheads.

lazlo
08-10-2011, 01:54 PM
It would be a sad day for Britain to shoot one, but otoh they are felons in midst of committing crimes and refuse police orders to stop.

Considering that a police shooting triggered the riot, shooting random looters would just further inflame the situation.
From watching the Vancouver and Toronto riots, it's not clear to me that the police really do much to stop the riot. It's pack behavior, and eventually the riot loses momentum/energy and dies out.

A see a lot of similarities to the L.A. riots, which were dying out on the second day, until a Korean shopkeeper shot and killed an unarmed 15 year old girl. That enraged the riot, which went on for another 2 days until Bush Sr. sent 4,000 soldiers from Fort Ord and Camp LeJeune. Shock and Awe can be very effective.

Mcgyver
08-10-2011, 02:13 PM
Shooting a thief?

Some have made the logical error of assuming whatever escalation in force has to somehow match the crime being committed. The police are not there to punish, the force the use isn't determined by what the person 'deserves' as a penalty for the crime the committed, the force they use is determined by what they have to do to regain control, stop the next crime from happening, arrest the criminals and make the streets safe.

Its a very important distinction ; IF (and its big if) greater force was used it is NOT to punish or sanction someone for theft, it is because of their refusal to stop the felonious act. its like the old idea of shooting a fleeing felon - they are shot because they're fleeing not as punishment for whatever crime they did.

I'm not ok with just shooting people...but I'm also not ok with mob violence and destruction.

To make the point more obvious, pretend you're are in a place that does not have the death penalty. The don't shoot murders or thieves. Fine, that's the law of that land. However suppose some is walking down the street shooting everyone they encounter. The police, death penalty or no death penalty, are going to shoot him - not as punishment for the murder, but as the only way to stop him from committing another crime. Its what they are supposed to do, stop people form committing crime and protect the law abiding citizens. It would be absurd to say 'don't shoot him, we don't shoot murders here', he wouldn't be shot for murder (that's the judge and juries job to punish) he'd be shot to prevent the next crime, regain control and makes streets safe.

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 02:23 PM
Mcgyver: One thing that never made sense to me.. Why don't police 'training' targets have legs?

Yea, Shoot for body mass and all that... If theres no choice and they are a direct threat, or there is a large distance..

Shooting for legs is hard sure. But if someone is fleeing or posing a minor threat (Knife at distance?), shooting em in the leg (or arm..) sure seems like a good option over shooting them in the head (or chest). I get +- 1" accuracy at 20' and im no expert and only have a crappy pistol. (And thats shooting about 1 round a second with 2 seconds to initialy aim from gun holstered) That seems like enough to hit a leg with reasonable accuracy.. Given a 8 shot clip at least.

Example: http://www.hmsecurity.co.za/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/f/i/file_15_21.jpg

Although this one clearly has arms, they are worth next to no points, and has no legs.

http://glarp.atk.com/2005_images/LE_2005/Federal/images/Police%20Target-Paper.jpg Other targets don't even score the arms.

macona
08-10-2011, 02:25 PM
... Ohhhh... Can't resist... Urge... to comment....

You mean like what happens every day in the US with the continious, never ending gun shows that have lobbyed and recived exceptions on the backround checks and waiting periods in the USA and sell assult rifles and fully automatic machine guns with ammo? (Exceptions granted because gun shows where supposed to be just a couple day event then move on, Where as they are now year round events and replaced gun stores because less restrictions)

Where regulation is so lax, Someone actualy handed a 8 year old kid a fully automatic, loaded machine gun (Uzi).. Where he proceeded to fire it.. And fire it.. And fire it... Yaknow, just one trigger pull... Things have a nasty recoil though.. every shot.. higher.. and higher.. And whoops, Shoot himself in the head.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/ns/us_news-life/t/boy-accidentally-kills-self-gun-show/

Personaly, I would'nt give an 8 year old an airsoft/paintball gun, let alone an uzi.

America: the consequences of a truckload of weapons and ammo that was turned loose to hotheads.

You just cant buy an automatic weapon at a gun show like that. You have to go through the red tape to get a Class 3 firearms license.

Here in oregon we do have instant background checks. Last time I did one is when I bought my dad an old .30 Luger for his birthday.

I was brought up with firearms, firing rifles as young as 5.

Note, that kid was not at a gun show.

macona
08-10-2011, 02:29 PM
Mcgyver: One thing that never made sense to me.. Why don't police 'training' targets have legs?

Yea, Shoot for body mass and all that... If theres no choice and they are a direct threat, or there is a large distance..

Shooting for legs is hard sure. But if someone is fleeing or posing a minor threat (Knife at distance?), shooting em in the leg (or arm..) sure seems like a good option over shooting them in the head (or chest). I get +- 1" accuracy at 20' and im no expert and only have a crappy pistol. That seems like enough to hit a leg with reasonable accuracy.. Given a 8 shot clip at least.

Example: http://www.hmsecurity.co.za/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/f/i/file_15_21.jpg

Although this one clearly has arms, they are worth next to no points, and has no legs.

http://glarp.atk.com/2005_images/LE_2005/Federal/images/Police%20Target-Paper.jpg Other targets don't even score the arms.

When you shoot, you shoot to kill, not wound like in the movies.

Also they cant sue you when they are dead.

Mcgyver
08-10-2011, 02:37 PM
Mcgyver: One thing that never made sense to me.. Why don't police 'training' targets have legs?
.

that's a good point, I suppose the answer is something like when things get so bad deadly force is required there's no middle ground...all that matters is taking him out and that is the most effective/biggest target. It does highlight a difference though; with the riots and mob lawlessness, whether in Britain or the natives here, you'd rather not use deadly force, just force enough, to whatever level is necessary, to get this onside in short order. Could be rubber bullets, tear gas, horses, water cannon, etc. The police should have been provided with a clear mandate to control it and provided with various equipment/options that would lie between standing around watching and letting the lead fly

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 02:38 PM
When you shoot, you shoot to kill, not wound like in the movies.

Also they cant sue you when they are dead.

Hey, Im definately not saying allways shoot for the legs, But im sure it would be a nice option to have in some cases, Especialy where tazers are not allowed/used.

"Innocent man shot in legs by cop" would likey be a little less riot worthy too.
Also, when you die after getting shot in the legs, they usally mark it down as killed by the bullet.

When you die after getting tazered 15 times, they mark it down as 'died due to excited delirium.. Nothing to do with the tazer at ALL, tazers don't kill people, And we* will sue any coroner who says otherwise, Dispite it being his ENTIRE JOB to figure out what actualy killed someone, we* clearly know more about tazers then him because we* invented them, And no you can't sue the city/cops because they where not the cause of his death, it was excited delirium!

we* in this case refers to the people who made the tazers and sold them and have a large vested intrest in them staying 'non lethal' weapons. Dispite intelligent people calling them 'Less lethal weapons'. Just like a butter knife is really a 'Less lethal weapon' and not a 'non lethal weapon'.. You just have to try harder with one.

Rustybolt
08-10-2011, 02:44 PM
The old cliche'," When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
seems to hold in this situation.
Unfortunately it is those that are the greatest benefit to society that are being harmed.

aboard_epsilon
08-10-2011, 02:45 PM
liquid manure ..should do it...you know ..the farmers stuff, strait from a dairy farm ..sprayed from a helicopter

those sort of people dont like getting dirty at all ..they wont fight or loot whilst coverd in that stuff .

all the best.markj

Dawai
08-10-2011, 02:46 PM
B<M:

Guns turned loose without a background check are illegal. You've heard a lot of wrong things about gun shows I think. Perhaps off the great propaganda machine television.

I've actually stopped a few thieves with a double barrel shotgun. I live in a bad neighborhood, which got bad because the property ownership changed from owners to renters over the last twenty years. People who are not vested in property ownership.

SHOOTING A THIEF: a non-lethal shot is a sure way to "pay" him payments the rest of his "sorry life". They lose in criminal court, sue you for a personal injury. Kinda like they did to OJ>?? Kinda hard, but only one SOB needs to tell "that" story.. not that "he was stealing to get his kid brother a transplant??" not he has a drug addiction. Not that he has this colostomy bag the rest of his life sitting there in court in that wheelchair. Perhaps you just need to step on his chest while you are calling the ambulance? That is another critical step to stay out of prison.

We have a great law here.. the Castle Doctrine, Ga Senate bill 396 where you can escalate the event up to a lethal response if you have to stop a felony in the act..
Where people who "own" stuff can protect it from "spread the wealth around thieves".

Alistair Hosie
08-10-2011, 02:56 PM
With those who have planned to join in with any legal protest just for the chance to cause violence and crime.If you shot at them they would soon find ways to shoot back guns despite what others will tell you can be had if you want them badly enough.
Innocent people will suffer as a result of even plastic bullets as they can be lethal. As far as water cannons are concerned I would employ them myself ,but a chief of police has advised against plastic bullets and water cannons as he said they would be innefectual in these situations as they are mainly designed to create distance between police and criminals and that wasn't required. I however feel that water cannons would be a good idea.We don't want death for stealing thats way too heavy handed .I agree it's very disturnbing to think great numbers of street cameras and are the most sophisticated in the world and many will be charged later.Alistair

mike os
08-10-2011, 02:56 PM
It was shooting innocent people that STARTED the riots, "

no, it was the shooting of a known criminal (drug dealer ) with an illegal firearm that supposedly started it....personally if you take a firearm on the street and armed police tell you to give it up, failure to comply immediately is exactly the same as saying please kill me right now.... no sympathy or wasted feelings on this front.... dont care who fired first, if he was armed he was asking for it.

This has nothing to do with protest, civil rights or any other such crap, it is arson, theft and now murder.

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 03:03 PM
B<M:

Guns turned loose without a background check are illegal. You've heard a lot of wrong things about gun shows I think. Perhaps off the great propaganda machine television.

I've actually stopped a few thieves with a double barrel shotgun. I live in a bad neighborhood.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_shows_in_the_United_States
"private firearm sellers are not required to perform background checks regardless of location—whether they are at a gun show, a flea market, their home, or anywhere else. "
"The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner"
"The ATF analyzed more than 1,530 trafficking investigations over a two-and-a-half-year period and found gun shows to be the second leading source of illegally diverted guns in the nation (behind only corrupt federally licensed dealers)."
"All told, the report identified more than 26,000 firearms that had been illegally trafficked through gun shows in 212 separate investigations"

Etc etc etc, Im sure you can read the wiki article yourself..
(Yea yea yea, wiki accuracy, I just can't be damned to find more results to make my point and cross referance blah blah blah)

So depends where you buy. Although apparently you can't get assult rifles at gun shows, Guess I was wrong about that.

Still, There are tons of 'public' gun sellers who hire some random guy to be a 'private' seller at gun shows and such to avoid the 'loss of business' that background checks produce...

macona
08-10-2011, 03:03 PM
B<M:

Guns turned loose without a background check are illegal. You've heard a lot of wrong things about gun shows I think. Perhaps off the great propaganda machine television.



Here you dont need a background check in a private party to private party sale.

Black_Moons
08-10-2011, 03:09 PM
With those who have planned to join in with any legal protest just for the chance to cause violence and crime.If you shot at them they would soon find ways to shoot back guns despite what others will tell you can be had if you want them badly enough.
Innocent people will suffer as a result of even plastic bullets as they can be lethal. As far as water cannons are concerned I would employ them myself. I however feel that water cannons would be a good idea.We don't want death for stealing thats way too heavy handed .

Anything can kill, Even water cannons. And if you think water is somehow 'safe', Let me introduce you to.. a pressure washer.. Or water jet cutter, Or water lance, or anything else that produces a 30bar+ water stream like water cannons do.

philbur
08-10-2011, 03:29 PM
So what do you do with a rioter who is throwing fire bombs directly at a group of policemen or into a shop with the floors above occupied by families.

1) Wait till he runs out of firebombs then try to arrest him when you are outnumbered and under a hail of missiles.
2) Allow him to finish throwing his fire bombs and then walk away, hoping nobody has burned to death.
3) Immediately stop him from throwing fire bombs by what ever means that represents the least risk to you and other innocents. Even if it means the use of extreme force.
4) Other.

Which group of people do you want to face in the morning. The family of the 7 year old child that burned to death in their bed, or the family of a dead fire bomber.

The use of extreme force against one person is not intended as a punishment, it's primary purpose is as a deterrent to the thousands of others who have it in their minds to copy. Failure to use a credible deterrent will almost certainly result in mindless copy cat escalation. Is the alternative proposal to evacuate the center of London until the rioters have completely trashed it and gone home, I don't think so. The UK government will continue to ratchet up it's response until the rioting is stopped, including if necessary a stage that involves deadly force, you better believe it. The only area of discussion is the speed of the ratchet.

Extreme force is never a good solution but some times it is necessary.

Those who think the arson and looting was a part of some legitimate protest haven't been follow events. These are mindless youths bent on destruction and looting for its own sake, for no other reason than they believe they can get away with it. It's time the authorities demonstrate otherwise. When the rioters believe they are not going to get away with it they will stop.

If somebody were throwing fire bombs at me, my family or my home and the police where unwilling or unable to stop them then I would use extreme force against the bomber in a New York minute. Once a thousand people decide the same thing you have anarchy. If the authorities do not gain control quickly there will be a very ugly local residence backlash. So the potential upside of shooting one fire bomber could be the saving of thousands, simple statistics.

It's interesting to note how easily civilised society slips toward anarchy without the thin blue line to prevent it.

Phil:)

philbur
08-10-2011, 03:47 PM
Water cannon are not much use against a mobile mob intent on looting and fire bombing any shop that takes their fancy. It would be like trying to hit a rat with an artillery shell. Every time you got the piece in place the target had moved. A water cannon is basically a static weapon used against a mob that has one particular location on it's agenda.

At least that's the opinion of a Chief Constable recently interview on the BBC.

Phil:)