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Duffy
08-12-2011, 11:04 AM
When did Duracell move to China?
Monday I bought a booklite c/w batteries. Imported into Canada, but made in China. Included were six Duracell AAA cellls. Lo and behold, they were made in China also. I then checked the last box of AAAs that I bought from Costco about six months ago, and THEY were made in USA.

gda
08-12-2011, 11:48 AM
duracell like all companies has factories all over the world - they are owned by P&G which is an American company

mike os
08-12-2011, 01:29 PM
who cares, as long as the QC is maintained....

Evan
08-12-2011, 01:41 PM
There is a very good reason to move consumer battery production to China. While this doesn't directly apply to the manufacture of regular alkaline batteries it is entirely pertinent to the manufacture of the more advanced battery types such as NiMH and Lithium batteries.

The advanced battery types contain a variety of rare earth elements. China is the primary supplier of rare earth elements. China has been restricting the export of rare earth elements by imposing export duties. If you want to buy rare earth elements at a reasonable price you must do so in China and use them there.

That is the main reason that battery manufacturing is moving to China.

hareng
08-12-2011, 06:42 PM
Slightly off topic but Ever Ready supplied the cores to Duracel made very locally then moved up NE. UK

flylo
08-12-2011, 07:03 PM
It matters to me. All these companies move production offshore & don't bother to tell their customers. It's like Cessna is going to make their new LSA plane in china. I'm sorry I'm not flying or supporting a Harbor Freight aircraft. Like importing milk from mexico. It's our jobs were talking about & it's pure greed by US companies which will come back to bite them in the end. We all better learn to say "would you like fries with that" in chinese. :mad:

Mad Scientist
08-12-2011, 10:32 PM
I have no problem if a company want to move production to China or elsewhere but I think it might be "appropriate" to charge them a tariff when they bring their product back into the country for sale.:)

Mcgyver
08-12-2011, 10:50 PM
I have no problem if a company want to move production to China or elsewhere but I think it might be "appropriate" to charge them a tariff when they bring their product back into the country for sale.:)

that would be the correct thing to do to counteract the consumer greed that caused the company to go there.

There should be a duty based on the unequal playing field, human rights, working conditions, environment etc.

on the corpoarte greed bit, I just can't let this go...it is nonsense to refer to corporate greed, it's an anthropomorphism. A company is a set of dusty documents, an organizational framework. People exhibit greed and people make decisions. Start working back on who the people are and why the made decisions and explain how you'd do differently. Not that all decisions are good or defensible, but take a realistic and critical look at who does what why instead of making nonsensical demonizations like corporate greed. You could just as readily demonize all the citizens for wanting cheaper goods or more valuable 401k's, pension plans etc.


There is a very good reason to move consumer battery production to China

We're talking alkaline here, besides, where rare earths are found doesn't matter much on where they are made into things.. Having done a brief foray into the alkaline battery business awhile ago, China did not quicklyh dominate production in this area because 1) it is so automated cheap labour doesn't matter that much and 2) their manganese dioxide has historically been of poorer quality. Interestingly, even most while label came from Duracell plants here not a china plant, at least they did 10 years ago. Likely a major driver for production over there is about being a global player and gaining access to the local market/region.

Evan
08-12-2011, 11:30 PM
We're talking alkaline here, besides, where rare earths are found doesn't matter much on where they are made into things..

Generally a plant makes more than one type of battery. Where the rare earths are found most certainly makes a difference. China is by far the largest supplier and they are restricting the export of rare earths. China supplies 97% of all rare earths on the planet. There are no other options.

Mcgyver
08-13-2011, 12:40 AM
Generally a plant makes more than one type of battery.

I'm looking forward to hearing how you know this as you unequivocally state it as fact.

A plant not only is extremely likely to make only one kind of battery, they may even make only make one size of battery

Bill736
08-13-2011, 12:46 AM
I think it does matter where the batteries are made. I say that as I put on my reading glasses that were made in China. They are supposed to be identical to the other pair of reading glasses I have. But, they're not. That's no surprise. In the last 20 or so years, I've bought many, many parts that were reproductions , or knockoffs, of parts originally made in the USA. Not once has a part made in China been of the same quality as the original. Some parts have been so poorly made that they are simply non-functioning mockups of real parts. I'd gladly pay more for a quality part, but they're just not available. There's a problem with moral codes and accountability in China. They just don't seem to care , and will do any sneaky thing they can get away with to save time and money. I have a real concern that the infrastructure of this country is being compromised by poor quality Chinese goods. Basic building products such as pipe fittings made in China leak because of defective threads, and even my plumbing supply houses now only stock Chinese pipe fittings. Electrical switches and supplies are faulty right out of the box. Water pumps fail after a few hours of use. NAPA stores are selling replacement parts for American cars that are made in China. ( I just bought an exhaust manifold for my Chevy truck that turned out to be made in China. It was, of course, defective. ) All of these products are sold under American company names, but made in China. There's no doubt that these American companies are being flooded with returned merchandise, and are trying to solve these quality control problems, but they are failing repeatedly. There's a reason , and I believe it's moral indifference that is endemic to the Chinese. On the other hand, I do not see the same problems with items made in Mexico, and selling for a similar price. As for revitalizing American industry, it's not going to happen any time soon. We found out the hard way that production line workers, essentially unskilled labor , cannot live upper middle class lifestyles if their employers are to stay in business.

Evan
08-13-2011, 01:20 AM
I'm looking forward to hearing how you know this as you unequivocally state it as fact.

This is one of the companies that makes Duracell batteries on contract.




Guang Zhou Garsun Power Science&Technology Co.,Ltd

Guangzhou Garsun Power Science & Technology Co., Ltd was established in 1995. After 10 years' development, Garsun has become a global well-known battery manufacturer. Headquartered in Guangzhou, Garsun's sales network covers all over China and expands into many countries and oversea areas, such as Europe, North America, Southeast Asia, Hong Kong, Taiwan and so on.

Main products include Lithium-Manganese Button Cell, Zinc-Manganese Button Cell, Lithium-ion Button Cell, Carbon Dry Battery and Acid Dry Battery. Our products have passed CE Certificate and ISO 9000 Quality System Certificate (in compliance with European safety standard). Besides, they also meet the IEC international standard and Japanese JISC8512 Industrial Standard. They are widely used in computer mainboard, automotive warning device, tyre tester, laptop, calculator, watch, shoe light, electronic thermometer, electronic toy, mini electronic gift, wireless bluetooth products, multi- function wireless remote controller, PDA, MP3, digital camera memory stand-by power supply, electronic key, card-style radio, IC Card, wireless mobile phone, digital camera, FRS and other devices.


Their factory is located here:

Guangzhou Garsun Power Technology Co., Ltd.
Contact Person: Ms.Amy Liu
Address: Huichuang Industrial Zone, Xintang Town
Zip/Post Code: 511340
City: Guangzhou
Province/State: Guangdong
Country/Region: China


They aren't the only contractor to Duracell. Others also make other types including regular alkalines. None of them make just one type.

[added]

I didn't get this from Google. I subscribe to newsletters from Made-in-China.com re subjects of anything to do with energy. I make money investing in energy products. It pays well if you keep up with what is happening in the markets. That's why I am aware of the recent events in the rare earths markets.

Mcgyver
08-13-2011, 01:38 AM
that's a bad hint not solid footing to make another equivocal claim on something you really don't know. That's one company who's a contractor to Duracell and does not say what they make at what plant, you do not know how many plants they have or what they make at each. How do we even know they are a Duracell contractor - does Duracell verify it?

Even if we they do make more than one type and one plant, which we do not know, to have a credible opinion on whether battery plans typically make more than one type you would have had to visited dozens, have you? otherwise you wouldn't know what they make where

There are synergies in the mixing rooms for different sizes of the same type, ie alkaline, however the lines are so different for different sizes its a small win. The don't typically, in a western design plant, make lots of different types.

Circlip
08-13-2011, 04:45 AM
There's a problem with moral codes and accountability in China. They just don't seem to care , and will do any sneaky thing they can get away with to save time and money

Perhaps you should research details surrounding the construction of the Brooklyn bridge or a range of submarines manufactured by the Electric Boat Co.?

Prices are determined by the greed of Joe public.

Regards Ian.

mike os
08-13-2011, 04:53 AM
well you have exactly 2 options......

stop buying
stop bitching

as long as you (and millions of others) buy, they will continue as thay are

bitching will do nothing to change this

Circlip
08-13-2011, 05:28 AM
You forgot the third, - - - Gloating.

Regards Ian.

Your Old Dog
08-13-2011, 07:30 AM
Goverments are formed to do what the citizens cannot do themselves. They are not formed for any other reason except in violent over-throws.

It's not realistic to expect any countries citizenry to do what the government refuses to do to help. It flies in the face of reality for any normal lunch bucket guy to spend more then he has to in order to buy something he needs/wants/desires. It would take a monumental effort for citizens to try to force production back to their own country. It isn't always the little guys fault.

Carld
08-13-2011, 10:24 AM
I never have been a strong fan for closed borders but I am getting to the point where I feel we need to do something strong to force our manufacturers back to the USA. Whether we force manufacturers to return by raising our tariffs or some other method matters little to me. We need to make what we buy here. We need the jobs but the pay will have to be according to current norms and the price of the products will have to reflect the current wages.

We can't have high priced products and low wages. The lack of money to buy high priced American products is what started the manufacturers to leave in the first place and the government didn't help matters with their tax laws that gave them breaks for leaving the USA.

Wal Mart forcing their suppliers to go to China and other countries didn't help matters either. Since the government is unwilling to make the needed changes we need to force our representatives to make the changes as needed.

mike os
08-13-2011, 10:46 AM
we need to force our representatives to make the changes as needed.


only way it will ever happen, that or force laws that make it illegal for the political bastards to take money, donations, perks "freebies" and jobs.... for at least 5 years after they leave office, from any company, orginisation or buisiness sector they have had any "government" input into during their term of office.... otherwise they just bow to "pressure" and the promice of a large "salary" when they become a VP or "consultant" later on.....

Tony Ennis
08-13-2011, 11:31 AM
It flies in the face of reality for any normal lunch bucket guy to spend more then he has to in order to buy something he needs/wants/desires.

More to the point, this is the only weapon in the consumers' arsenal. We buy at the sweet spot between quality and price. Not everyone buys Snap-On.

How does my family tell Coca-Cola their prices are too high? We buy Meijer sodas unless there's a sale on Cokes.

Tariffs... Every government intervention carries an unintended consequence. If the perfect tariffs are applied to imports, US companies will become competitive and things will be 'fair.' However, this is the US we're talking about; lobbyists will continually force the tariffs higher and higher. As the price of imports increases, US companies will charge more simply because they can. The end result is that the tariff on the imports becomes an effective tax on the consumer. The US companies become bloated with unearned income and effectively wards of the state.

If the importing nation improves one of the faults for which they were punished by the tariff, they can expect tariff to be reduced. But if it is, the US company starts bleeding cash and employees that they didn't earn and never should have hired. Now the importers are stealing jobs again, yadda. It's a very complex situation.

Mcgyver
08-13-2011, 12:06 PM
I never have been a strong fan for closed borders but I am getting to the point where I feel we need to do something strong to force our manufacturers back to the USA..

or at least force a level playing field. I have not doubt Americans (and I'll include Canada in this as well as we too are American as in North America) can compete head to head, but not with the disparity in environmental rules, worker safety and conditions, human rights etc.


only way it will ever happen, that or force laws that make it illegal for the political bastards to take money, donations, perks "freebies" and jobs.... for at least 5 years after they leave office, .....

agreed, cronyism, and when its in the reverse direction crony capitalism, are kind of our version of public corruption....which we criticise the rest of the work for (and is absolutely an economic sea anchor - an economic drag). Systemically right now is seems it simply a game as to much virtue they can project to the gullible voters but their actions (like most people) end up focused on benefiting themselves. Not an easy one to solve, but a core problem imo


It's a very complex situation.

yes it is. I wonder how many realize to what extent the American standard of living is subsidized by cheap offshore labour? Your life style is as high as it is because there's a low paid, abused Chinese (or wherever in asia) making your T shirts and underwear.

Bringing a lot of manufacturing jobs back here would affect things (many good, many a surprise) in ways the average Joe probably hasn't thought of. Goods would become much more expensive, so standard of living insofar as 'stuff' goes drops. Services also becomes more scarce and hence more expensive and labour is drawn from there to manufacturing.

Remember the honeymooners? How Ralph Kramden lived on a bus drivers salary in the early '50's? Compare that to how a bus driver lives today - I know one who makes 100k a year with overtime. As a high cost labour market, the more duties you have to shift work back here, the more that bus drivers life starts to look like Ralphs instead of my friends....maybe a good thing, but man, there will be some turmoil to get there. Ironically though, its almost inevitable one way or another...people will either just be bitter or shift from emphasizing standard of living to quality of living

Seastar
08-13-2011, 12:31 PM
Here is one input from some one who has absolute knowledge of where batteries are built in China.
My company:
WWW.ritron.com
is one of the last manufacturers of two way radio products in the US.
We buy parts from all over the world including many from China.
In almost all cases there are no US made equivalent parts.
We have bought millions of dollars of ni-metal hydride and ni-cad batteries from China to power our portable products.
Lately we use mostly all ni-metal hydride.
I can assure you that the Chinese companies we deal with make many types and many sizes of batteries in one massive plant.
They contract lable many brands including ours.

From the owner of a company that is trying to stay in the US and keep our jobs here.
Corporate profits are exactly what drives companies to shift production
offshore.
Those profits are for the benefit of the shareholders who are the millions of people who own stock in those companies either directly or indirectly through IRAs, pension plans, saving deposits and so on.
Bill

Evan
08-13-2011, 12:55 PM
This is about where batteries are made. Right now China is forcing the issue because they own the vast majority of the rare earth supplies on this planet. They are doing exactly what some of the posters are advocating should be done and that is resulting in the battery business moving to China because that is where the required raw materials are available.

If the tables were turned and the US owned those resources the US would do exactly the same thing.

RTPBurnsville
08-15-2011, 08:47 AM
With all the regulations and the enviro nut cases running this country, we are lucky anything is still made here. Just try to build a modern factory here which uses anything deamed not green and see how far you get. Until the American people pull their head out of the sand it is only going to get worst.

mike os
08-15-2011, 12:55 PM
With all the regulations and the enviro nut cases running this country, we are lucky anything is still made here. Just try to build a modern factory here which uses anything deamed not green and see how far you get. Until the American people pull their head out of the sand it is only going to get worst.


Well you let Nixon and Carson get away with it, now you are reaping the rewards.... unfortunately so are we....;)