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Dr Stan
08-16-2011, 07:35 PM
Here's a summary of the report about the accident that killed the female student using a lathe in a Yale lab.

http://www.salon.com/wires/us/2011/08/16/D9P5BC182_us_yale_lab_accident/index.html

lazlo
08-16-2011, 07:42 PM
Shame. She should have had her hair up, but an E-stop would have saved her life.

Black_Moons
08-16-2011, 07:50 PM
Shame. She should have had her hair up, but an E-stop would have saved her life.

They don't list lathe RPM, (Or hah! SFM to be exact) so you can't really say for sure if E-stop would of helped.

Id say the biggest violations is not posting the 'rules' for using the lathe in plain view, allowing access at 2am (IIRC), And no E-stop is pertty lame as they are rather cheap (If you can find a place to buy them..)

topct
08-16-2011, 08:10 PM
E stops and guards and posted rules are not substitutes for actual training as to the hazards with operating machinery.

These hazards and the end results of not thinking through must be shown in a manner that imprints the needed precautions into each individual.

lazlo
08-16-2011, 08:15 PM
E stops and guards and posted rules are not substitutes for actual training as to the hazards with operating machinery.

Yale is claiming that she attended mandatory safety training. There's a major lawsuit in progress, so no surprise...

Black_Moons
08-16-2011, 08:17 PM
E stops and guards and posted rules are not substitutes for actual training as to the hazards with operating machinery.

These hazards and the end results of not thinking through must be shown in a manner that imprints the needed precautions into each individual.

"Yale has said Dufault completed a safety course that included instructions to tie back long hair."

Really, common sense. Im sure she had been told many times and was just lazy, Happens to all of us. Have you not forgotten your safty glasses, Just once?

Kids are very lazy, It needs to be beaten into them by making this women a posterchild for "DO WHAT WE SAY DAMNIT... And not what we do..." when it comes to safty rules.

lazlo
08-16-2011, 08:30 PM
Im sure she had been told many times and was just lazy, Happens to all of us. Have you not forgotten your safty glasses, Just once?

I forget my safety glasses all the time. I've had steel wire surgically removed from my eyeball twice. I've got short hair though :p

My current strategy is to keep buying safety glasses until they stop disappearing :D

gwilson
08-16-2011, 08:30 PM
I believe the machine was a wood lathe.

macona
08-16-2011, 08:37 PM
There is no guard you can put on a lathe that would have prevented this suicide. She knew the rules and didnt follow them.

In the early articles it said she was involved in safety.

wierdscience
08-16-2011, 08:51 PM
Wonder how much the mfg is gonna get sued for?

Dr Stan
08-16-2011, 08:54 PM
There is no guard you can put on a lathe that would have prevented this suicide.

I do not think this was a suicide, but a tragic accident that could have been prevented. It is a good example of a university saving money by not employing enough lab assistants to oversee the facilities. :(

IMHO it should have not been open 24/7, but had some reasonable hours during which time a lab assistant, trained student worker or grad student would have been on duty.

You can bet your sweet backside that no athlete goes into the weight room without someone there to spot him/her. :mad:

Robin R
08-16-2011, 08:54 PM
I'm surprised OSHA let them off without a fine, because surely the shop tech's are employes.

I had a look at the first of the MIT lathe tutorials and right at the start it said all OSHA guards had been removed for demonstration purposes, shouldn't they be demonstrating safety as part of the tutorial. Also there was no evidence that safety guards had ever been fitted and no E stop either.

justanengineer
08-16-2011, 09:26 PM
I do not think this was a suicide, but a tragic accident that could have been prevented. It is a good example of a university saving money by not employing enough lab assistants to oversee the facilities. :(

IMHO it should have not been open 24/7, but had some reasonable hours during which time a lab assistant, trained student worker or grad student would have been on duty.

You can bet your sweet backside that no athlete goes into the weight room without someone there to spot him/her. :mad:

You do realize this is a college/university correct?

Situations like this are basically unpreventable as students regularly have access to labs after hours whether allowed or not. Student teachers ("teaching assistants") are given keys in order to perform their duties. These keys then find their way into the hands of others who work on their own projects after hours, whether for school or personal. Some staff members even encourage this behavior as it encourages creativity and use of the school's facilities instead of drugs and booze.

Not to sound cruel, but our planet has been ruled by Darwin's theory of evolution for thousands of years. OSHA, lawyers, lawmakers, you, me..we cannot get around this and no one is exempt from the rule of life.

Dr Stan
08-16-2011, 09:42 PM
You do realize this is a college/university correct?

Situations like this are basically unpreventable as students regularly have access to labs after hours whether allowed or not.

Until I returned to industry I taught for several years at a vo-tech and then in higher ed. My labs which included machining, welding, forging, casting, and fluid power were always supervised by myself or a trained assistant.

They are preventable if the colleges & universities place a priority on learning and properly funding the labs.

Black_Moons
08-16-2011, 10:15 PM
Not to sound cruel, but our planet has been ruled by Darwin's theory of evolution for thousands of years. OSHA, lawyers, lawmakers, you, me..we cannot get around this and no one is exempt from the rule of life.

Yep, in the end, its her own fault for not listening and doing as she was told, Simple as that.

If you can't serve as a good example of what to do, Serve as an example of what NOT to do.

lazlo: Thats exactly why I bought a 12 box of glasses. Well, More that someone was raging about how awsome this brand was, so I was like, well, i'll buy some since I needed another pair or two to avoid having excuses (can't find em, i'll just drill this one hole without them...), and then they said 'How many boxes?' and I replyed '..Uh, Just one' realising that buying one pair of glasses would be kinda silly and costly shiping wise and I think they where just $2~ each in a box of 12. Gave a couple away to friends/family so I would'nt have an entire drawer full of em... Should of given my oddball ones away insted, these are too nice! :P

Evan
08-16-2011, 10:27 PM
It wasn't a wood lathe. The accident happened in the Chemistry lab's machine shop. We have already discussed this in exhaustive detail shortly after the accident happened. Guarding cannot consistently prevent this sort of accident and neither can an E-Stop. Tying back your hair can.

I have worn my hair very long at times over the years and currently it is plenty long enough to get caught in my lathe. I tie it back with elastics and stuff it inside my collar.

KiddZimaHater
08-16-2011, 10:28 PM
was missing physical guards to protect the operatorThis proves how stupid and incompetent our government really is.
Especially OSHA.
NOBODY in OSHA knows that lathes, mills, and drill presses are manufactured and designed to operate with open spindles?
If someone gets hurt or killed by their own ignorance:
Blame the machine.
Fine the company.
Ridiculous.....

Peter.
08-16-2011, 10:30 PM
Not to sound cruel, but our planet has been ruled by Darwin's theory of evolution for thousands of years. OSHA, lawyers, lawmakers, you, me..we cannot get around this and no one is exempt from the rule of life.

I think it was the theory of 'revolution' she had a problem with. It's a crying shame but proves once again that being academically bright doesn't go hand in hand with having common sense.

Black_Moons
08-16-2011, 10:44 PM
I think it was the theory of 'revolution' she had a problem with. It's a crying shame but proves once again that being academically bright doesn't go hand in hand with having common sense.

Maybe she was a creationist and believe everything should revolve around the center of the lathe?

gwilson
08-16-2011, 11:42 PM
Sorry,on the PM forum,the last thing I heard about it was that it was a wood lathe. Doesn't matter,really. Long hair in any powerful machine is bad.

I really don't think that allowing students to operate machinery at 2:00 AM is a good idea. Liable to be quite tired out and probably thus impatient by that time,no?

I remember my own impatience as a student. It must be learned and practiced over the years.

wooleybooger
08-16-2011, 11:53 PM
that OSHA report is typical "justify my job" govt bs. OSHA never did their job in the first place because yale supplies future govt minions.

flutedchamber
08-17-2011, 12:41 AM
What happened is a damn shame, but stupidity can be deadly. Shame or not, what she did was stupid.

Forrest Addy
08-17-2011, 02:00 AM
A little rough analysis based the facts presented and our assumption:

1. I did some calculations. Let's assume the spindle was running at 700 RPM, her hair was a foot long, and her reaction time was 500 milliseconds (about normal for someone young and in good shape). Let's also assume the young woman had practiced hitting the E-stop or the clutch until she had it perfect.

2. Did she have time to react? Say she became aware of the situation when she felt the first tug. 700 RPM in 7.8 revs/sec. 1" dia is Pi inches in circumference. The first tug would require about 1 wrap, say 4 inches of her 12" of hair. She has 8" of hair left or 2 1/2 work revs more or less before her head contacted the work. That's about 300 milliseconds. Another 100 milliseconds and some fatal injury would have happened - broken neck, skull fracture etc. 400 miliseconds to death and she had a 500 milli-second reaction time. An eStop would not have saved the woman's life once her hair was snarled in the work. She didn't have a chance even if she hit the button squarely and the lathe stopped instantly.

3. Effectiveness of the E-stop. In order for the E-stop to save her she would have had to push it in time for the spindle to stop before it spooled up her hair. The usual E-stop opens the motor contactor and the motor slows down from the mechanical drag of the mechanism it drives. Usually there is no brake that responds to an E-stop. The motor/spindle would have to have an instant fail-safe brake, something I've never seen on a lathe and only recently on a table saw. No way an E-stop in the usual sense could have saved her even if she had hit the button instantly. There was anough kinetic energy in the rotating mass to kill her, motor power or not.

4. Effectiveness of the spindle clutch/brake. No mechanical brake on a machine tool is instantaneous. Typically, a mechanical brake will slow a manual machine tool spindle to a stop in one to three seconds. Probably not quick enough to save the victim even if the clutch lever was instantly shifted to "brake".

Conclusion: I can see no mode of machine safety or operation whereby timely action could have saved the victim's life once her hair became entangled unless some part of her scalp ripped free.

Assessment from personal experience in other shops: Everywhere I've ever worked there were safety posters. Safety glasses, safety shoes, PPE, filter masks, welding flash, hot work, pinch points, the list goes on forever. Among these is ALWAYS warnings about long hair and loose clothing. Keeping long hair up and tight to the head, clothing clean and close-fitting etc. Also the shop policy is always to have more than one guy working in any particular area.

Findings: Both the secured hair and the two man rule were not enforced. Shop safety at the Yale lab frankly sucked.

Exculpatory conclusion: There is a possibilility that the victim wishing to preserve her hairdo elected to let it flow free instead of pinning it up. If vanity was involved, this fatality was Darwinian.

Another point is: even if an observer, vigilant and reflexive as a cat, could not have saved the victim had he a hand on the clutch, his eyes wide open, and his senses wary.

It wasn't the machine or the lack of guards. Guard a machine against every hazard real and imagined and the thing won't be operable.

Un-bound hair tangling in rotating equipment is what actually killed the young woman. Lax safety awareness or the victim's deliberate violation of safety rules is what set the stage.

Finally: Who to point the finger at depends the results of questioning the students using the shop on their safety awareness particularly about securing hair and the two man rule.

macona
08-17-2011, 02:22 AM
I call it suicide since she knowingly violated the rules and was smart enough to know exactly what would happen.

Guards are not required on lathes, even by OSHA.

OSHA has no jurisdiction there. The only time they are involved is with an employer/employee situation, the occupation part of the name. Just like OSHA can't come in to your garage or for that matter your business if you are the sole person.

914Wilhelm
08-17-2011, 03:48 AM
I disagree that she was stupid. If she were stupid she likey would have not made it into an ivy league university. She, more likely, was inexperienced and ignorant of the dangers of machinery. I have citified friends come out to my farm and they aren't stupid but have just never put too much thought into the dangers of standing too close to the boom of the backhoe, the pto shaft on the brush hog or the rearend of a 1200 pound horse. I have had to save some from nearly making catastophic errors with their lives. I had those dangers beat into me starting at a young age by a lifetime of growing up with people who showed me the dangers and who recalled the tragedies they had witnessed. Just like I would never turn my 7 year old son loose alone with a lathe, I would not turn my 25 yo college educated daughter loose with one either till I was convinced they understood the inherent dangers of equipment. That knowledge just doesn't come out in a one hour safety class, it is learned by someone riding your ass constantly while you are using that equipment till they can trust that you're safe. Safety defined that you understand the dangers and that you can predict what will be dangerous. Some people can be made safe in a few weeks and some people will unfortunately never get it and for their sakes should be excluded from those activities. I doubt you can create a test that will predict someone will be safe based on their test taking abilities. I think safety will be more of a "I know it when I see it" phenomena; an observed display of what I call safety maturity. When i see that maturity, that will be the point I will turn people loose with my equipment.

Your Old Dog
08-17-2011, 07:09 AM
In the end it will be everyone's fault but hers. Everyone will have to anti up for stupidity. What kind of safety guard that would keep hair out of a spinning lathe would also allow you to accomplish any work?

Peter.
08-17-2011, 07:15 AM
The door on a turning center :)

lazlo
08-17-2011, 08:41 AM
Not to sound cruel, but our planet has been ruled by Darwin's theory of evolution for thousands of years. OSHA, lawyers, lawmakers, you, me..we cannot get around this and no one is exempt from the rule of life.

Except the young student in this case was the exact opposite of natural selection -- she was a highly intelligent young physicist and astronomer, rushing to finish a semester project.

By the way, she was asphyxiated by her own hair, so I do believe an E-Stop would have saved her life.


It's a crying shame but proves once again that being academically bright doesn't go hand in hand with having common sense.

Oh, come on -- we all do stupid stuff in the shop. That's not common sense, that's Get 'R Done, especially at 2 am at the end of the semester.

There was a post on PM a long time ago, where we were all talking about close calls in the shop. A machinist over there who has long hair was describing that he had the power feed on, and was surprised when he notice that the chuck was getting bigger and bigger -- he got his hair caught in the power feed, and it was dragging his face into the chuck.

goose
08-17-2011, 08:44 AM
The OSHA report states the lathe was a Harrison Claussing (sic) 1962 machine. The part involved was the lead screw " a horizontal rotating member"

Considering how slow lead screws rotate, it indeed must have given time for the victim to realize what was happening. The young lady was only 25, so cut her some slack.
My guess is that she was probably only somewhat familiar with the operation of the machine, almost certainly never took a safety course (University's error) Was un-supervised (University's error) and most likely had time to activate an e-stop, if one were present (University error, again) and within reach.

When my young ladies are old enough to be in the shop, I'll make sure their hair is tied up good, either that or a pixie cut.

A.K. Boomer
08-17-2011, 08:56 AM
I disagree that she was stupid. If she were stupid she likey would have not made it into an ivy league university. She, more likely, was inexperienced and ignorant of the dangers of machinery. I have citified friends come out to my farm and they aren't stupid but have just never put too much thought into the dangers of standing too close to the boom of the backhoe, the pto shaft on the brush hog or the rearend of a 1200 pound horse. I have had to save some from nearly making catastophic errors with their lives.


Very good Wilhelm,

there's still allot of hillbillies on this board that must have one clean track record their entire life to call someone who lost their life in this way "stupid", she was obviously brilliant but like you say either let her guard down or did not have the proper experience/respect for the equipment, stupid would have been if she instead decided to go drinking rather than work on her project and then drove and crashed her car.

The fact is is we all do stupid things from time to time - it's funny how your only labeled "stupid" only if you get "caught", yet just because you lucked out and then said "wow - that was close" make's it alright for you to then judge others.

I'll tell you what stupid is - slopping down a bunch of trans fat every day and plugging up your arteries, now that's stupid, it not only drastically shortens your life but it plugs up your brain so you can't think straight...
It's right up there with Meth and "huffing", and if someone is still doing this with all the information that's out there then they are not just ignorant - they are stupid... - it's like having your hair get caught in your lathe every single waking day of your life and not changing it...
there's a little perspective that should shut most of the people up that are being disrespectful to the young lady who lost her life...
How many of you eat ice cream ? just wondering...

wierdscience
08-17-2011, 09:11 AM
The only rule that would have prevented this is manditory collar length hair period end of story.Don't give me any BS about tying it up or pinning it back or tucking it in,the threat is still there like it or not.

There is a picture floating around of an 8" wire wheel on an 8" Baldor buffer that has a wad of hair wrapped in it and the gaurd busted from the user's head hitting it.That picture should be used to "encourage" short hair around machinery.

Evan
08-17-2011, 11:50 AM
The only rule that would have prevented this is manditory collar length hair period end of story.Don't give me any BS about tying it up or pinning it back or tucking it in,the threat is still there like it or not.

Do you leave your dick hanging out when you are using machinery?

I don't leave my hair hanging out either.

Scottike
08-17-2011, 12:08 PM
I have always been a proponent of "Stupid Should Hurt!", but it's a shame when something like this happpens and there's no "do over".
By stupid I mean the refusal, or inability to foresee the potential hazards of not spending 30 seconds with a rubberband to tie back her hair.
I have no doubt that at some earlier point in her life she had to deal with her hair getting tangled up into something because she didn't tie it back, and it probably happened several times through her life. It's unfortunate that the lesson wasn't learned then.
Was the university at fault for not enforcing the safety rules or making a safer work enviroment - probably.
Was it her fault for not following the rules - yes.
At some point as adults (which I assume she was), we have to take responsibility for our own actions or inactions, part of that is to be able to spot potential danger and take the appropriate action.
I think part of the problem is that learning has become so compartmentalized that many young people today have difficulty taking what they have learned in one area of their life and apply it to other areas of their lives. In this regard, many of the smartest, most intellengent people I know are ... stupid.

macona
08-17-2011, 12:09 PM
The OSHA report states the lathe was a Harrison Claussing (sic) 1962 machine. The part involved was the lead screw " a horizontal rotating member"



Almost guarantee it was not the leadscrew. She would have had to have very, very, long hair for that to happen. It had to be the spindle or work.

macona
08-17-2011, 12:14 PM
Except the young student in this case was the exact opposite of natural selection -- she was a highly intelligent young physicist and astronomer, rushing to finish a semester project.

By the way, she was asphyxiated by her own hair, so I do believe an E-Stop would have saved her life.


Depends, it could have knocked her out. And if the machine was geared the spindle can be rather hard to turn so she still may have died. Plus an e-stop would just remove power, most likely. There is enough mass on a larger lathe to still pull you in while it spins down. If there is a brake and she was sucked in then she still would have not been able to unwind herself after and same result.

goose
08-17-2011, 12:38 PM
Almost guarantee it was not the leadscrew. She would have had to have very, very, long hair for that to happen. It had to be the spindle or work.

This is the OSHA finding, in part:


d.
The part of the lathe involved in the incident was the "Lead Screw", which is a horizontal rotating member on the lathe. According to paragraph 4.7, ANSI 11.6-1984, "When a lead screw, feed rod, traverse rod, or camshaft is completely exposed without some portion of the lathe protecting the operator, a safeguard shall be provided."
Such safeguards could include physical guarding, use of personal protective equipment and/or emergency stops. Further investigation into the lathe revealed that guards were not provided for the chucks where the jaws protruded beyond the face of the chuck.

linky (http://www.scribd.com/doc/62441063/Findings-Letter-Yale-13-April-11-Investigation)



Yale's response to OSHA finding:


The safety of Yale’s students is paramount, and the university community was deeply saddened and troubled by the tragic accident that took the life of Michele DuFault.

Yale has reviewed OSHA’s letter regarding its investigation of the accident, a letter which apparently was shared first by the agency with the media. Unfortunately, OSHA’s assessment contains a number of significant inaccuracies. The facts are as follows:

The machine in question met ANSI standards, which incorporate both training and personal protective equipment for certain types of machines and activities. Machine tool training provided by Yale was extensive, consistently reinforced by professional staff, and confirmed by Yale’s expert to be exemplary. Personal protective equipment was provided in the shop.

The machine shop had room access controls and students were repeatedly instructed not to use machinery without a buddy present.

Lastly, shop professional staff inspected and maintained machines regularly.

Since the accident, Yale has conducted a thorough review of its machine shops and equipment, and its policies and practices. The university is now in the process of implementing the recommendations developed through the review process, which will further enhance machine shop safety and accident prevention through a number of measures, including increased awareness by users of safety rules. Monitors will be present in shops at all times they are in use by undergraduates.

wierdscience
08-17-2011, 01:18 PM
Do you leave your dick hanging out when you are using machinery?

I don't leave my hair hanging out either.

Stupid question.


Evan,I have seen quite a few guys bend over to pick something up off the floor and they're hair fall out of they're shirt,most thought it mind and went right back work with it out.

MasterMaker
08-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Reading about stuff like this makes me(and most) cringe.

When it comes to how smart she was..

I have found that a high IQ is not the same as smart and neither does a high degree of education equate to it either.

I have met a lot of highly educated morons over the years.

Rosco-P
08-17-2011, 02:25 PM
Restricting the hours of access or hiring a nanny to sit in the shop isn't going to prevent a similar occurance. A lab assistant who is busy texting, on the phone, doing homework or working on their own project isn't going to prevent an accident that happened in the blink of an eye.

lazlo
08-17-2011, 03:03 PM
Reading about stuff like this makes me(and most) cringe.

I have found that a high IQ is not the same as smart and neither does a high degree of education equate to it either.

So only folks with high IQ are injured in a machine shop?

Show of hands: how many here have been injured in the shop because you were doing something stupid? Raises hand.
It would be a lot quicker to count the number of folks who haven't been injured in the shop. Any hands raised?


Restricting the hours of access ... isn't going to prevent a similar occurrence.

I think it would have, in this case. She was working late, trying to finish a semester project. Presumably tired and sleep deprived. That's when most people get hurt, including professional machinists. For the same reasons, 2 - 3 AM is the peak time for truck accidents.

macona
08-17-2011, 03:10 PM
Ill take the OSHA report with a grain of salt. I doubt they know what is what.

I think I have seen two lathes that have lead screw covers. Never one in person.

lazlo
08-17-2011, 03:12 PM
I think I have seen two lathes that have lead screw covers. Never one in person.

What about E-stops? Has there been an industrial machine made in the last 30 years without an E-stop?

Evan
08-17-2011, 03:14 PM
Evan,I have seen quite a few guys bend over to pick something up off the floor and they're hair fall out of they're shirt,most thought it mind and went right back work with it out.

Do you ever drive without wearing your seat belt? I don't. I'd rather walk down the street with my dick hanging out. I find myself putting on the seat belt just moving vehicles in my yard. Same with long hair which I had for years working at Xerox. There are many rotating hazards on those machines when you run them with the panels off and the interlocks cheated (using the supplied interlock cheaters). On the large machines some people have lost arms by not following safety precautions.

Safety is a state of mind. If you fail to keep it in mind then bad things happen.

macona
08-17-2011, 03:49 PM
What about E-stops? Has there been an industrial machine made in the last 30 years without an E-stop?

Yep, lots of them. Our mill at work is about 10 years old and there is no estop.

Black_Moons
08-17-2011, 04:00 PM
Do you ever drive without wearing your seat belt? I don't. I'd rather walk down the street with my dick hanging out. I find myself putting on the seat belt just moving vehicles in my yard. Same with long hair which I had for years working at Xerox. There are many rotating hazards on those machines when you run them with the panels off and the interlocks cheated (using the supplied interlock cheaters). On the large machines some people have lost arms by not following safety precautions.

Safety is a state of mind. If you fail to keep it in mind then bad things happen.

I remember taking apart an OLD photocopyer, the ones the size of a modren 'smartcar'
Had to take it apart to be able to lift it into the dumpster :rolleyes:

Got about 40lbs of electronics, solenoids and motors outta it. Including a 1/3HP motor. Whats so special about a 1/3HP motor? iirc it had something like a 60:1 gearbox on the end of it and drove a chain that went half way around the photocopyer and back. I bet that could kill someone right there if you got caught it in, Or at least remove a couple fingers. Basicly, 1/3HP at 60rpm~. LOTS of torque, dispite moving slowly. 1/3HP was also just its 'running' HP, Im sure near stall speed its torque incresses greatly (Split capacitor motor too iirc)

Harvey Melvin Richards
08-17-2011, 04:08 PM
They are preventable if the colleges & universities place a priority on learning and properly funding the labs.
You mean the morons in the state legislature.

John Stevenson
08-17-2011, 04:08 PM
Do you ever drive without wearing your seat belt? I don't. I'd rather walk down the street with my dick hanging out.

Just as people won't notice someone driving past without a seat belt they probably won't notice your dick hanging out.

Arcane
08-17-2011, 04:27 PM
And then the fight started! (http://www.funcage.com/blog/and-then-the-fight-started/)

Dr Stan
08-17-2011, 06:26 PM
You mean the morons in the state legislature.

They too are at fault, but in this case (Yale) it is a private school that does not receive state funding.


BTW, the amount of support for state colleges and universities has dramatically declined in the past decade.

Black_Moons
08-17-2011, 06:39 PM
Just as people won't notice someone driving past without a seat belt they probably won't notice your dick hanging out.

Yea, But you'll only get arrested and embarassed for having your dick hanging out.

You might die without your seat belt. Lets also note that automotive accidents are the leading cause of accidential death, And claims way more lives the guns (Including gang warfair and people shot by cops).

justanengineer
08-17-2011, 06:44 PM
Except the young student in this case was the exact opposite of natural selection -- she was a highly intelligent young physicist and astronomer, rushing to finish a semester project.


When you quote one of my posts, please be sure to thoroughly consider your justification for rebuttal. The theory of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with stupidity or intelligence, which is why its often referred to as "survival of the fittest." In many cases throughout history, the deciding factor in evolution was an accident outside the control of the creature/species ending their existance. I intentionally did not comment about her personally out of reverence for the dead. To explain what I meant in another more common, more harsh way, "**** happens."

Speaking from firsthand experience, I would also dare say that being a student at an ivy league school does not make someone an intelligent person. Several of the people that would make the list of "least intelligent people I know" went to school in the ivy league, and trust me when I say entrance is more often a matter of parental donations or fulfilling a gender, ethnic, or other quota than it is about intelligence or academic qualifications.

As I posted earlier, Im not surprised by the disregard for safety in a college environment. Combine young adults at the peak of their immaturity with ready access to machinery, and you have the makings for disaster. Nothing against the girl killed, but the fault lies with her entirely IMHO.

lazlo
08-17-2011, 06:55 PM
The theory of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with stupidity or intelligence, which is why its often referred to as "survival of the fittest."

WTF?? You made the comment:


Not to sound cruel, but our planet has been ruled by Darwin's theory of evolution for thousands of years. OSHA, lawyers, lawmakers, you, me..we cannot get around this and no one is exempt from the rule of life.

So no, she wasn't naturally selected. She was smart, tired, and in a hurry.

Sh*t happens.

wierdscience
08-17-2011, 07:22 PM
Yep, lots of them. Our mill at work is about 10 years old and there is no estop.

And even if they do there is no garrantee that someone would be able to reach it in and accident.

Evan
08-17-2011, 07:35 PM
I remember taking apart an OLD photocopyer, the ones the size of a modren 'smartcar'
Had to take it apart to be able to lift it into the dumpster

That was one of the smaller ones.

This one takes a 50 amp 220 and a 30 amp 220 to operate and weighs a couple of tons. I was trained on everything.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/docu.jpg

Black_Moons
08-17-2011, 07:35 PM
I sure hope nobody here thinks "I have an E-stop/guards/shields on my lathe/mill and I pray every day!, So I don't need to keep long hair restrained and wear proper fiting clothing with no jewlery or rings or other things that could catch or snag."

Black_Moons
08-17-2011, 07:38 PM
That was one of the smaller ones.

This one takes a 50 amp 220 and a 30 amp 220 to operate and weighs a couple of tons. I was trained on everything.



Wow, Sounds like it likey has signifigantly more then a 1/3hp motor driving it too. :P

wierdscience
08-17-2011, 07:50 PM
Do you ever drive without wearing your seat belt? I don't. I'd rather walk down the street with my dick hanging out. I find myself putting on the seat belt just moving vehicles in my yard. Same with long hair which I had for years working at Xerox. There are many rotating hazards on those machines when you run them with the panels off and the interlocks cheated (using the supplied interlock cheaters). On the large machines some people have lost arms by not following safety precautions.

Safety is a state of mind. If you fail to keep it in mind then bad things happen.

Evan I'm glad your obsessed with your dick,but there is no way that you can guarantee 100% of the time that your hair won't get caught in something.It has the potential to happen simply due to the length and the fact that it is there.
As far as a state of mind,having one less thing to keep track of improves mental state hands down.
So by keeping my hair short there is no chance it will wrap a leadscrew,keeping my belt buckled eliminates the chance of a ticket for not wearing it and keeping my pants zipped means I don't have to wrap my dick around my waist to keep it from being stepped on:D

macona
08-17-2011, 09:32 PM
Wow, Sounds like it likey has signifigantly more then a 1/3hp motor driving it too. :P

Probably one circuit is dedicated to the fuser lamp. Also the faster you want to scan the more light you need.

gwilson
08-17-2011, 10:48 PM
The conservation dept. at Williamsburg always has interns,whose families can afford for them to never have paying jobs.

There was this 37 year old woman who had her MASTERS degree in furniture conservation. Their saw wasn't working,so she came over to use my table saw. With a MASTER's degree,she should have had training and experience using the common woodworking machines.

She wanted to rip a piece of wood about 16" long,and 6" wide. She was clearly scared to death of the saw. She stood on the RIGHT hand side of the fence,and reached over the fence to push the wood through. She was shielding her face with her right hand the whole time,and pushing with a push stick with her left. She did not use the goggles.

Somehow,the board got ripped,though I don't know how she had kept the wood against the fence in that posture.

I told the head of her shop later that he had better train her to use power tools before she cut her da**** hand off!! Remember,she should have had this training before she even arrived for an internship.

After her internship,she got a job as furniture restorer at a museum plantation on South Carolina. Tryon Palace.She stayed there for 1 year,during which time the only things she did were to help the janitors clean up,and bake fake pies and other fake foods to keep setting on the dining table. They make pies full of dry beans,covering them with crusts,etc. to look real,but they don't rot.

After her year,she decided that this was not the field for her,and she went into BUSINESS SCHOOL at the age of 38!!

Another intern,a guy I knew,got her former job down there. He later told me that she had ordered a shop full of machines,but had never even unpacked them!!

Now,no doubt she had to be smart enough to get her degree,but beyond that,she seemed totally helpless.

I will add that NONE of those guys in the furniture conservation shop could stay within 1/4" of the line with a bandsaw! They came over to rip some 6" thick walnut 2" wide. They were wasting most of it. I took a piece and showed them that the machine,handled properly,could saw exactly on the line throughout the cut. They were amazed,and wanted to know how I managed to do that! I told them"You have to learn to make love to the bandsaw!!!" Actually,my joke was true in the sense that you have to feel how the saw cuts,and how fast it wants to cut,etc.,and adjust your technique to get the most from the saw. Those other guys ALL had Master's degrees,too. I only have a B.S.,but know how to do work.

A.K. Boomer
08-18-2011, 12:44 AM
I have always been a proponent of "Stupid Should Hurt!", but it's a shame when something like this happpens and there's no "do over".
By stupid I mean the refusal, or inability to foresee the potential hazards of not spending 30 seconds with a rubberband to tie back her hair.
I have no doubt that at some earlier point in her life she had to deal with her hair getting tangled up into something because she didn't tie it back, and it probably happened several times through her life. It's unfortunate that the lesson wasn't learned then.
Was the university at fault for not enforcing the safety rules or making a safer work enviroment - probably.
Was it her fault for not following the rules - yes.
At some point as adults (which I assume she was), we have to take responsibility for our own actions or inactions, part of that is to be able to spot potential danger and take the appropriate action.
I think part of the problem is that learning has become so compartmentalized that many young people today have difficulty taking what they have learned in one area of their life and apply it to other areas of their lives. In this regard, many of the smartest, most intellengent people I know are ... stupid.


As I stated the last time this topic got brought up - don't assume anything - you weren't there and you really cannot say for sure what happened, maybe she went totally by the book,

so she gets a rubber band that was made in china - half way through her project it snaps and then fires across the shop not to be found by the "detectives"

now im not blaming the chinese - im just saying...

For the record - iv machined with my dick hanging out but I believe I was working with plastic at the time and I was on my mill...

Black_Moons
08-18-2011, 12:57 AM
I will add that NONE of those guys in the furniture conservation shop could stay within 1/4" of the line with a bandsaw! They came over to rip some 6" thick walnut 2" wide. They were wasting most of it. I took a piece and showed them that the machine,handled properly,could saw exactly on the line throughout the cut. They were amazed,and wanted to know how I managed to do that! I told them"You have to learn to make love to the bandsaw!!!" Actually,my joke was true in the sense that you have to feel how the saw cuts,and how fast it wants to cut,etc.,and adjust your technique to get the most from the saw. Those other guys ALL had Master's degrees,too. I only have a B.S.,but know how to do work.

Yep, its amazing to learn to saw something properly. You can push on that saw untill it stalls, and maybe cut 10% faster. or you can let the machine do the work, push hardly any more then needed to slide the material on the table, and have it cut effortlessly.

PS, Im scared to death of table saws too, Thats why I took extra effort to learn how to properly use them in a non dangerious manner, And what safty percautions to take. Being afraid to the point where it affects what you do while using the tool is too much however. Do it right and you won't have problems, and if you do, you are doing it right and should'nt be in the line of fire.

And just visualise the worst that could happen. If it involves cutting you.. Your not doing it right.

macona
08-18-2011, 03:34 AM
PS, Im scared to death of table saws too,


Jointers are what freaks me out.

wierdscience
08-18-2011, 09:12 AM
Jointers are what freaks me out.

My uncle accidentally made all the finger tips on his right hand the same length on a Jointer.:eek: