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View Full Version : My tools might be in for a salt bath courtesy of Irene! Advice?



gellfex
08-25-2011, 11:59 PM
I'm about 12 ft above sea level, less than mile from the Hudson's bank. There's a fair chance the storm surge from Hurricane Irene will flood my basement shop, if not the ground floor of my home, which is 2 steps up. I've felt like puking much of the day.

So, how bad is a 24 hour immersion in salt water for machine tools and their motors, really? Anybody have some cheerful advice of preparations I can take for the immovable iron? I was thinking of buying a gallon of WD-40, loading it into my HVLP gun, and spraying down the whole shop. Other than that, I got nothin. You?

Black_Moons
08-26-2011, 12:16 AM
... Ouch... Uhhh... Id pass on wd40. Buy all the LPS3 you can find. And a gasoline based water pump, you do NOT want water in your basement for any length of time.

Iv heard of other 'wax based' formuals, those should stick. I would'nt really trust oil for submersion...

Motors... Very easy to ruin, you could at LEAST take those off.

Note that all the oils on your machines will coat the top of the water, and then coat EVERYTHING as the water line rises... Everything. walls. floors (as it goes back down), wiring (only thing that will save it)

PS: Turn off the power, iv seen a battery charger corrode to nothing but abunch of stray wires in a box when it was pluged in as the boat it was connected to went down.. at dock.

JoeLee
08-26-2011, 12:17 AM
Imersion in salt water for any length of time is not good. It will get into places that you will never be able to get to to clean it out. My advise is to have a couple good pumps on stand by and a generator. Plug any serwe or drain pipes that are in your basement. Good luck.

JL.....................

Evan
08-26-2011, 12:24 AM
Spray with motorcycle spray on chain oil.

Black_Moons
08-26-2011, 12:27 AM
almost forgot, most rental places will rent gasoline pumps, might wanna grab em quick before they are gone.

Harbor freight/princess auto also sell nifty little 2 stroke 1~2hp pumps. Though you'd want to test them ASAP with time to return em.. assuming any are still in stock.

Peter.
08-26-2011, 12:36 AM
You can buy the oil-absorbant nappy pads and sausages. Leave as many as you can in the basement and they will float on the surface of the water and soak up any floating oils really well. Won't stop water damage but it'll save everything getting coated in oil when you pump out.

Sorry to hear about your impending disaster. Hopefully Irene will blow itself out, change course or fall to land at the lowest tide and the damage will be minimal (I know it's not hopeful but it's the best I could think of).

Buy up detergent and disinfectant so you don't get ill in the cleanup.

Scottike
08-26-2011, 12:36 AM
Pull the all the electric motors, electronics and as much of the wiring and switches as you can.
Once the salt water hits them they're pretty much toast.
Same for bearings, but if you can encapsulate them in grease that may help. but if you can, pull the spindles
For the machine ways - you could try to cover them with a thick coat of good heavy grease - don't use "marine grease", it's designed to absorb some water.
Afterwards, have a quanity diesel fuel on hand and get in there as soon as you can and put as many parts as you can into the diesel to pickle them and prevent the air from getting to them before the corrosion sets in, make a grate of some kind for your parts to set on in the diesel, as any water that may be on the parts will end up settling to the bottom of the fuel.
Try to get some Salt Away for cleaning things up with, it's typically used to rinse out the cooling systems of boats that have been run in salt water, but can be used for neutralizing the salt that's gotten on parts.
Any way you cut it, It's a bad situation. Let's just hope that the storm surge doesn't get that high.

gellfex
08-26-2011, 12:41 AM
I've got a generator and 3 electric pumps, but after a certain point, if it tops the curb, it's just gonna happen. I may try and put a caulk barrier on the flat hatch entrance to the basement and board the 2 18" square windows, but door at the bottom of the the back stairs is simply a steel door in a frame in the brick. If water was on the other side 6 feet high filling the stairwell, I would assume the frame would burst in.

Where would I get this LPS3, and how would it compare to Evan's chain oil?

Peter.
08-26-2011, 12:47 AM
Chain oil is VERY good at resisting water and sticking to bare metal, but it'll be a bear to clean up. Best bit about it is the better brands are delivered with a solvent which flashes off very quickly so it runs into thin gaps then dries to a sticky heavy goop.

Black_Moons
08-26-2011, 12:50 AM
LPS3 drys to a wax like coating, and removes with kerosene or your solvent of choice. I would suspect it might do a little better then chain oil, but you will have to clean it up. Id suspect chain oil would be fine all over machines. (although some chain oil is designed to 'set' somewhat too, its still pertty oily)

Chain oil is likey gonna be better for cleanup, but id suspect LPS3 is gonna be a little better for protection.

Evan
08-26-2011, 12:55 AM
According to NOAA your area has a less than 10% chance of a surge greater than 4 feet and zero for over 6 feet. You can keep track here:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/psurgegraphics_at4.shtml?gm

1-800miner
08-26-2011, 12:59 AM
Grease! It's cheap and easy/fast to get some.
The thicker grease the better.Spray cans of chain/cable lube for the hard spots.
Worry about cleanup later.
Hurry! There is a storm coming.

armedandsafe
08-26-2011, 01:00 AM
When I was in the center pivot irrigation business, we used a product called NC-123. Each pivot man carried an aerosol can and the shop had a 50 gallon drum of it. It was not unheard of to have 4 or 5 motors which had been flooded with irrigation water, containing fertilizer or other chemicals, in a bath of it, drying out. We recovered 2 to 5 HP motors which had been submerged for up to a couple of days.

http://www.chemsearch.com/productDetail.asp?pName=NC%2D123%3Csup%3E%3Csmall% 3ETM%3C%2Fsmall%3E%3C%2Fsup%3E%C2%A0Plus+Aerosol%0 D%0A&pLetter=N&country=USA&countryName=United States&language=English&language_id=4&article_id=&cat_id=&cat_desc=

That is the site for the aerosol spray, which is good for small jobs, but you would need a larger quantity.

I have no idea of the cost, as I haven't needed it for almost 40 years.

Well, that link didn't copy right. Try this one and do a search for NC-123
http://www.chemsearch.com/

Pops

gellfex
08-26-2011, 01:06 AM
So they're both hard to clean up. Great.

The temptation to drink myself into a stupor and not even try to do what can be done in the next 48 hours is great. Just walking around the shop contemplating who lives and who dies is harrowing. Obviously all the contractor tools like the Ryobi tablesaw and the miter saw can go to somewhat higher ground. Then there's the bench sanders and such. Maybe I could pull the head off the drill press. Uggh.

Does anyone know how they restore power to places that have had their entire meter service immersed? I imagine they'll be toast too. So, even after the power lines are back up, there'll be thousands of urbanites whose electric and gas service was in the basement and got destroyed.

Right now it looks like it'll hit at low tide. Maybe we'll get lucky.

gellfex
08-26-2011, 01:27 AM
According to NOAA your area has a less than 10% chance of a surge greater than 4 feet and zero for over 6 feet. You can keep track here:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/psurgegraphics_at4.shtml?gm

I've been watching that plot. It's showing 6' is in the 5-10%, but I believe that it was higher earlier. There's a lot of info flying around about the low pressure surge vs the wind surge which can be dramatically more. There are people talking about tsunami like flows. This is scary crap.

I tried to get my wife to take the kids to my sister in Ithaca. She wants to stay. Our place is a really solid 4 story brick "brownstone" surrounded by similar height buildings, with no window pane bigger than ~28 square. That's got to be stronger than the huge windows in a lot of new construction. I'm "pretty sure" we won't be in direct physical danger, but the next week could be memorable. At least the water will drain off quickly, unlike New Orleans.

Black_Moons
08-26-2011, 02:13 AM
I wonder if you could buy thick enough plastic to move the machines onto, and wrap up and withstand the sharp corners/force of the water.

Rather expensive.. but...

Id recommend spending time to remove the motors on the big boys. They are the easyest to move, most likey to be damaged the worst.

And hey, Maybe your lathe/mill/drill needs new spindle bearings after all and you just needed a good excuse?

Evan
08-26-2011, 02:18 AM
Immersion in salt water isn't that bad. It's when it comes out of the water and is exposed to oxygen that the real damage starts. Be prepared to wash everything with fresh water the minute it is exposed to the air. That will make a big difference.

Peter.
08-26-2011, 03:34 AM
Evan is right - whenever we are working with salt water we do just that, fetch a 40-gallon drum of fresh over and use a jetwash lance to blast all of the electrical tools out. Most fun is using the small Hilti drills, because salt water conducts rather well you get halfway-through drilling a small hole and start getting electrical shocks through your wet gloves.

Here's a guy drilling a hole in a sea wall and getting the motor thoroughly soaked in sea water. It was flushed out a week or so later with no ill-effects.

http://peterrimmer.myby.co.uk/ntt/pages/tt2_resize%20(3).htm

Forrest Addy
08-26-2011, 04:20 AM
Use LPS 3 if you can find it at this late date. Use LPS3 No combination of oil or grease will preserve metal against salt water like a properly formulated petroleum based metal preservative. LPS3 meets the requirements of the Navy's metal preservative, long term, soft, mil spec umpty upm. It's on the can.

Douse all bare metal. Open covers and spray gearing. bearings, (especially spindle bearings) and shafting. Spray ways and run the slides over the film back and forth several times. Slide out gibs and spray both sides before re-inserting them.


Ignore advise from shade tree yokels about home brew slushing with grease WD40 (useless!!) etc. Salt water immersion is serious stuff to machine tools and mechanical equipment. Once established, salt water corrosion is damn persistant.

Remove all motors and them them and the all the portable tools and electronics computers, heirlooms, prime lumber, photo albums etc above the surge height - attic if you have to. It's a lot of work and a huge PITA but it's better than rassling the insurance company for 10 months. They replace sewing machines, coin collections, and golf clubs in a heart beat but machine tools are factory equipment in their little bean counter minds and unless your shop equipment is specifically identified in the insured inventory the adjustors can be resistant to reason.

Anyway, An active man driven by fear of flood can move tons on stuff in a couple of hours if he has to.

rohart
08-26-2011, 04:34 AM
Good luck to all of you on the coast.

I hope none of you have and colour vision defects. On the surge probability map I can't tell the difference between the colours used for 5-10% and 50-70%.

I would guess they would use green for safe for 5-10 and red for danger for 50-70, but that doesn't help. I can't tell where they are. There are plenty like me.

We've been lucky over here storm wise, but we're waiting.

If you go for the booze option, keep away from the green !

Peter.
08-26-2011, 07:04 AM
Well this Yokel has a bit of experience using equipment underwater which is not designed for it.

This piece of plant was submerged for six days. As you can see the hydraulic motor and mount (fitted new to a used machine) are still in pristine condition and the pulley extension on the bottom was fabbed my me on site and went in bare. The haze of rust you can see on parts of the machine is actually iron particles from cutting rebar on previous jobs. After recovering this is was thoroughly jetwashed and went back into service without even changing the bearings.

http://peterrimmer.myby.co.uk/images/wire_rig01.jpg

http://peterrimmer.myby.co.uk/images/wire_rig02.jpg

Sure if you can get the LPS3 then that would be best but given that he's in an emergency situation I don't think it's fair to discount the advice of using chain grease as 'useless' (I never suggested wd40).

THe most important thing is to get the salt off it ASAP. Of course, he might not be allowed to get near his plant right away so any protection is better than leaving it bare.

aboard_epsilon
08-26-2011, 07:09 AM
waxoyl you want ..
trouble is it needs a few days for the solvents to evaporate.

so needs to be done a couple of days before

http://www.rustbusters.co.uk/images/waxoyl_pic.jpg

all the best.markj

aboard_epsilon
08-26-2011, 07:10 AM
double post

vpt
08-26-2011, 08:45 AM
What about wrapping in plastic bags? Bag on from top and tied off on the bottom, so long as the bag doesn't have a hole it will keep the air in on the top side of the bag where normally the good stuff on machines is.

WJHartson
08-26-2011, 09:00 AM
One of the problems that you have with flood water is that other corrosive substances are picked up and mixed in with the water. Salt water is bad enough but when mixed with the other "stuff" it is really corrosive and nasty to clean up. Cleaning up machine tools after a flood is a real chore even with fresh water and electricity if it is still available. I have some equipment that went under water during Katrina and most of it has some corrosion and pitting even with it being cleaned up quickly. The electrics are damaged first and most times can't be saved because of the other stuff that was in the water.

If you have fresh water available, wash everything the best you can and blow it dry with compressed air if you have that available. Coat it with oil and let it dry out before trying to start it up.

Good luck with the storm, hope for the best prepare for the worst.

EVguru
08-26-2011, 10:42 AM
I think someone actually sells flood bags, but for furniture rather than machine tools. Could well be worth a try!

Many years I had a friend who was into off shore RC boat racing. Most people tried to waterproof their radio gear (usually not sucessfully) whilst he didn't. He used to bring me his gear to be fixed and I got him to carry a sealed tub of de-ionised water. If the radio gear when for a swim, it would be rinsed under a tap, then dropped into the sealed tub and delivered to me. I rarely had to do more than open up the cases, blow out the water and give it all a long low bake.

Perhaps if the worst happens, pumping out and then re-flooding with non-saline would prevent much of the damage.

lynnl
08-26-2011, 11:30 AM
How 'bout cosmoline? ...If you could get it in time.

The military shipped untold 1000's (maybe millions) of tons of equipment protected by that stuff.

My experience is limited (very), but from what I've seen of it, it ought to protect forever.

aboard_epsilon
08-26-2011, 11:49 AM
How 'bout cosmoline? ...If you could get it in time.


That's what the waxoyl is ..sort of .

all the best.markj

lakeside53
08-26-2011, 12:07 PM
One of the problems that you have with flood water is that other corrosive substances are picked up and mixed in with the water. Salt water is bad enough but when mixed with the other "stuff" it is really corrosive and nasty to clean up. Cleaning up machine tools after a flood is a real chore even with fresh water and electricity if it is still available. I have some equipment that went under water during Katrina and most of it has some corrosion and pitting even with it being cleaned up quickly. The electrics are damaged first and most times can't be saved because of the other stuff that was in the water.

If you have fresh water available, wash everything the best you can and blow it dry with compressed air if you have that available. Coat it with oil and let it dry out before trying to start it up.

Good luck with the storm, hope for the best prepare for the worst.


Yes... its's not like a storm surge will be clean sparking salt water - you'd be lucky after pumping if the basement wasn't knee deep in mud, and "other stuff".

Ever seen a modern car that has been in salt water? Sure, they look like new after the cleanup, but a few years later? I've repaired my share of boat motors and electrics that had been sumerged. massive amounts of clean water and extended soaking helps, and run the gas motors etc asap.. but...

One thing not mentioned is what happens to flexible copper wiring - salt water will be forced in to the braids of the wires. It will not all come out... marine wire is usually plated ; most machine wiring isn't.

Electric motos - disassemble, wash and soak in fresh water, again and again, then bake these for an hour our so at 150F (air temp). Replace bearings unless you are absolutely sure they are clean and regreased.

I'm not sure how much stuff you have, but.. time is aways against you with multiple projects.

There are few posts/blogs around on machine tool cleanup/restore after Katrina - nasty....

Oh....the water.... if you have basement drains and toilets... that will be the most likely place "it" will come in first...

vpt
08-26-2011, 01:33 PM
Thinking about the bag thing more. I think it would work great if you could find some huge heavy duty plastic bags on short notice, cover the machine or tool, and vacuum out the extra air best you can and duct tape the bag tight against the foot of the machine many many wraps around with the duct tape, rope, huge zip ties, etc.

lynnl
08-26-2011, 02:49 PM
....cover the machine or tool, and vacuum out the extra air best you can ...
.

Hmmm, I'd think that extra air would be your friend.
Unless of course, you can get it all out, and then get a complete, waterproof seal, e.g. with those food vacuum sealers that heat seal the closure.

vpt
08-26-2011, 03:27 PM
Also most feet or bases on machines are hollow to the floor allowing the vacuumed air to just travel up and into the bag. I guess same goes for the water.

Black_Moons
08-26-2011, 03:44 PM
Hmmm, I'd think that extra air would be your friend.
Unless of course, you can get it all out, and then get a complete, waterproof seal, e.g. with those food vacuum sealers that heat seal the closure.

Mmmm, Vacuum packed lathe, For extra freshness.

Dawai
08-26-2011, 04:21 PM
Take fresh documentation pictures for yourself.

I wish you the best, during the recent tornadoes here, one went right over our property, but was not on the ground while passing. It tore up southwest of us, and northeast of us.

Perhaps providence and luck will provide for you too.

jep24601
08-26-2011, 06:14 PM
I like the plastic bag idea and also shrink wrap on a big roll. Your could pour oil in the bag too.

If it looks like you are going to flood then try and fill your basement with tap water first. You might give it a couple of feet now to get started. If you pump your basement out too soon (or try to keep it dry) you might blow up the floor or blow in the walls.

gellfex
08-26-2011, 09:20 PM
Thanks all.

It's been a busy day, I got 6 spray cans of LPS3 (all Grainger had) and 4 more of what seemed a similar product. I may be rash, but I'm holding off the full immersion actions like coating and electrical stripping till tomorrow when forecasts will be much more accurate. Right now, even with all the hysteria, NOAA is giving us under 40% chance of 58mph winds, and putting the chance of a 7' surge under 10%. I just don't know what to think. For all the carrying upstairs I might do of motors, hand tools, and the benchtop tools, it would only gain 18".

That might be an important 18". Or not.

Never having owned a generator before, I'm trying to figure out how they meant it to be used in a storm if they say don't even put it in an open garage. Do I just leave it running in the rain? Actually, it's still in the box. I would not have gotten such a large one, 5500w, if I had a choice. I think a 3000w would have run the pumps just fine. If we don't lose power I'm hoping to return it in the box.

Edwin Dirnbeck
08-26-2011, 10:24 PM
I have rescued many power tools long after major floods in the midwest. I realize that I am not dealing with salt water as in your area. But I have dealt with months old dried out mud and sand. You will have the advantage of imediate cleanup.Many do not like WD40 .I love WD40 AND USE IT ON EVERYTHING. I would vacuum and towel off all the water that I could.Then start at the top and spray everthing again and again.If you want to you could immerse your electric motors in a 5 gallon bucket of desiel fuel.The worst that would happen to the average motor is the bearings need replacement.Danger if you are dealing newer tools that have electronic boards you will want to flush them with fresh water to revove the salt before drying and oiling. Good luck, Edwin

gellfex
08-26-2011, 11:02 PM
I have rescued many power tools long after major floods in the midwest. I realize that I am not dealing with salt water as in your area. But I have dealt with months old dried out mud and sand. You will have the advantage of imediate cleanup.Many do not like WD40 .I love WD40 AND USE IT ON EVERYTHING. I would vacuum and towel off all the water that I could.Then start at the top and spray everthing again and again.If you want to you could immerse your electric motors in a 5 gallon bucket of desiel fuel.The worst that would happen to the average motor is the bearings need replacement.Danger if you are dealing newer tools that have electronic boards you will want to flush them with fresh water to revove the salt before drying and oiling. Good luck, Edwin


Thanks. Among the many things unclear is wether we actually lose fresh water pressure in our gravity fed system here, or it simply becomes potentially unsafe. If it's the former, who know when it would be restored.

The bad news is my area is now officially being advised to evacuate.
The good news is my 45 year old Coleman gas lantern & stove are still ready for duty. God bless the old iron. I even have a GI issue Coleman pack stove.

MrSleepy
08-27-2011, 04:30 AM
I would use lots of sand bags..they will not stop the water ingress but they do filter the mud and the sewage to a degree.

Rob

Peter.
08-27-2011, 07:15 AM
Good luck and stay safe. Do what you can then forget the iron and focus on the family.

Rustybolt
08-27-2011, 08:31 AM
Yes.
Best of luck to you.
Be safe.

davidwdyer
08-27-2011, 08:57 AM
Hope you get through it O.K.

But on the bright side, most of these storms which are predicted days in advance, don't turn out to be as bad as promised.

vpt
08-27-2011, 08:57 AM
Edwin sparked a good point, hand tools and whatever fits in a 5 gallon pale with a good lid sealed up on top would keep what ever is inside dry even if submerged. Good 55 gallon drums with a resealable lid would do the same but hold bigger tools.

doctor demo
08-30-2011, 01:26 AM
I hope all is o.k. now that the storm has passed.
Steve

Peter.
08-30-2011, 09:37 AM
I hope all is ok. Some of the pictures are very sobering.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/hurricane-irene-tears-through-puerto-rico-cuba/2011/08/22/gIQAbouAXJ_gallery.html#photo=1

gellfex
08-30-2011, 02:47 PM
Thanks you all for the concern. All is good, the surge hit 7', and we're ~12 above sea level. But nearby streets flooded from rainwater and our crappy sewer system, making me wonder just how high would the tide get before the lack of flow caused me to flood with rainwater! As someone posted, that would solve the salt problem! But we never even lost power. I need to figure out if I should keep the 5500w B&S generator that cost $800 or return it and get a smaller one like 2000w. I was able to keep the water at bay with 3 1/2hp pumps. But for some reason one of those was pulling 11amps. Odd.

I stayed up all night making sure my pumps were working properly, watching online tide guages and passing time mixing little cups of hydraulic cement to plug the geysers in my foundation. One crack was squirting almost a foot in the air, I figured the sewer was flooded to within a couple of feet of the street.

The problem is the street sewer is undersized, old and crumbling, so the fill gets charged with water, charging the ground under my foundation. My first attempts many years ago to find a real solution was not encouraging. Typical french drains that are supposed to let water in then pump it out aren't meant for pressure of this nature. In addition I'm getting a line of settling cracks up one corner of the place. I'm now trying to figure out whether getting an engineering inspection of the house and foundation before trying to locate a contractor is wise. Thoughts?

Elninio
08-30-2011, 03:03 PM
how do you protect your tools during these very humid periods?

Chris S.
08-30-2011, 04:03 PM
I was able to keep the water at bay with 3 1/2hp pumps. But for some reason one of those was pulling 11amps. Odd.


My first guess would be that it's not dropping the start stator but that can't be because it would have burned out in short order. If it's a Cap Start- Cap Run model you could have a leaky Cap though.

BTW, not to diminish your apprehension, but you guys in the north east have no concept whatsoever of what a real hurricane is. A hurricane is watching your beloved pickup (through plywood knot hole) moving sideways. A hurricane is thinking that any moment your roof and your family will be airborne. By the time a hurricane gets into your ice cold water it's nothing more than a major rain event by our standards. ;)

Chris

jep24601
08-30-2011, 04:14 PM
If those "settling cracks" are diagonal cracks staring a couple of feet from the basement corner and sloping up away from the corner then your basement wall is being pushed in laterally by the external pressure.

Chris S.
08-30-2011, 04:20 PM
how do you protect your tools during these very humid periods?

I used to use LPS-2 until I ran out of it and in the pinch I went to Home Depot to see what they had. I found this stuff called "Fabulous (PB) Blaster". This stuff is great. It's a penetrant that, after evaporating, appears to leave a patina-esc waxy film on the machines and tools. I love the stuff!

Chris

gellfex
08-30-2011, 09:28 PM
If those "settling cracks" are diagonal cracks staring a couple of feet from the basement corner and sloping up away from the corner then your basement wall is being pushed in laterally by the external pressure.

Nope, its a straight drop, so that the section above a window cracks at it's outside bottom and it's inside top.

gellfex
10-27-2012, 04:34 PM
It's like Deja Vu all over again! I hate this crap.

lakeside53
10-27-2012, 07:33 PM
Move!

EddyCurr
10-27-2012, 11:04 PM
Old thread, new suggestion

Shell's Ensis product line offers a variety of metal preservative products.

The product names have changed since we used drums of one version
as a release agent coating on bare metal intended for use in forming
concrete.

Here are a couple of links that discuss properties of some types of Ensis
Fluids and Compounds


Shell Ensis Fluids (http://ind-lub.com/pdf/Shell-Ensis-Fluids.pdf) (C to K)

Shell Ensis Compounds (http://www.shellsource.com/NR/rdonlyres/etrq2gtalbxqihvomxcqzfwvkqw5pqpaem3unvjkdlmsbaznvc c2pcy6qcl6hbp4yrc2acnjqpovkg/RustInhibitorsSellSheet5065460LoRes.pdf) (DW, OF, WB)

legendboy
10-27-2012, 11:56 PM
LPS3 drys to a wax like coating

chain wax as evan suggested also dries to a thick wax like coating, very readily available

thats what i'd be going after if i was in op's situation

Forrest Addy
10-28-2012, 12:51 AM
The Navy has infinite experience in preserving bare metal surfaces from salt water. Naval guns have to be ready for battle at an instant's notice so suitable presevatives were developed to meet that requirement

If you look at the small print on the LPS3 can you'll see the Mil-PRF-16173E Grade 2 call-out.

My advice is to get all portable shop equipment (chucks, tools, tailstock, dividing heads, compressors, vises, tool boxes, etc everything two men can load on a truck) to a safe place (an upper story if your building is strongly built) and heavily coat your immovable machinery and all their accessible internal cavities with a gallon of LPS3 in a cheap garden sprayer. Fill all gearboxes solid with oil. Pack wadding soaked with preservative into gaps leading to sumps. Plug vents and other atmospheric opening with dollops of caulking. Remove screw in breathers and install pipe plugs.

Two vigorous men working hard can clean out a house and shop to get valuables andequipment above storm surge in 6 hours with a pick-up truck. I know I did it in 1967 with the Agana, Guam park keeper to save his house hand machine shed from a typhoon storm surge.

mike4
10-28-2012, 02:15 AM
All deliberations about how to prevent the gear from rusting aside , my thoughts are with all members in the path of that storm , I hope that you all get through it ok with your families.

Michael

oldtiffie
10-28-2012, 05:57 AM
It is possible to probable that some machines will be saved - either good condition to poor to "write-off".

"Saving" any that might have been submerged may take more time and effort and resources than is available on time - if it can be done at all.

The owner is going to have to go without some stuff for extended periods as he works through his "to do" list without really knowing if he will be successful at all in some cases and if so when he might finish.

Some stuff will have to be dumped and then comes the decision as to what is really needed and what is not - and when it can be replaced and where the money will come from.

And all this has to be fitted in with preserving the house and contents and the property.

As this is an "Act of God", will the insurance "cover" it and if so by how much and how much more is needed?

To see what is required just to restore/save one lathe after submersion it would be instructive to see Lane's thread on that task - it is well worth a good look at it.

I hope Lane sees this post and posts a link to the preservation thread.

I really do feel for any person or family or district in this state.

vincemulhollon
10-28-2012, 08:06 AM
I was thinking of buying a gallon of WD-40, loading it into my HVLP gun, and spraying down the whole shop.

At least the flood will put the fire out (don't try this at home).

A crazy friend of mine used to clean latex paint out of his sprayer by blasting WD-40 thru it, and when the spray would catch fire he believed all the latex paint had been flushed out. Not entirely sure how he's still alive.

Dr Stan
10-28-2012, 09:50 AM
The Navy has infinite experience in preserving bare metal surfaces from salt water. Naval guns have to be ready for battle at an instant's notice so suitable presevatives were developed to meet that requirement

If you look at the small print on the LPS3 can you'll see the Mil-PRF-16173E Grade 2 call-out.

My advice is to get all portable shop equipment (chucks, tools, tailstock, dividing heads, compressors, vises, tool boxes, etc everything two men can load on a truck) to a safe place (an upper story if your building is strongly built) and heavily coat your immovable machinery and all their accessible internal cavities with a gallon of LPS3 in a cheap garden sprayer. Fill all gearboxes solid with oil. Pack wadding soaked with preservative into gaps leading to sumps. Plug vents and other atmospheric opening with dollops of caulking. Remove screw in breathers and install pipe plugs.

Two vigorous men working hard can clean out a house and shop to get valuables andequipment above storm surge in 6 hours with a pick-up truck. I know I did it in 1967 with the Agana, Guam park keeper to save his house hand machine shed from a typhoon storm surge.

I think Forest's advice is quite sound. I'd follow it to the letter.

vpt
10-28-2012, 10:20 AM
Move!



Thats what I would do.

Weston Bye
10-28-2012, 12:33 PM
It's like Deja Vu all over again! I hate this crap.

Did you learn anything the last time? Good luck this time around. Keep safe.

gellfex
10-28-2012, 04:14 PM
Thanks all. I've got the LPS3, and I'm going to move all the high value hand tools and portable bench tools upstairs. After that I guess I'll pull the VFD's and motors if I can. Sorry, Forest, I ain't as vigorous as I once was, shlepping some sandbags this morning nearly pooched my back. Unfortunately my 13 year old son, though willing, and strong for his 85 lbs, can only be so much help.

Anybody know what happens to an electric service that's been submerged? New breakers and meters, or everything gets ripped out?

flylo
10-28-2012, 05:05 PM
You should move to Michigan, we have plenty of room since 1/3 of the poulation has moved out. Bring your own job though. Good luck!

oldtiffie
10-28-2012, 05:10 PM
Thanks all. I've got the LPS3, and I'm going to move all the high value hand tools and portable bench tools upstairs. After that I guess I'll pull the VFD's and motors if I can. Sorry, Forest, I ain't as vigorous as I once was, shlepping some sandbags this morning nearly pooched my back. Unfortunately my 13 year old son, though willing, and strong for his 85 lbs, can only be so much help.

Anybody know what happens to an electric service that's been submerged? New breakers and meters, or everything gets ripped out?

If it happens there is going to be a lot of inconvenience and heart-ache with some very unpalatable facts to be faced and decisions made.

Don't over-do it physically or mentally (easy to say but hard to do) else you might bring on some serious problems that you really won't need.

I hope all goes well though.

Dr Stan
10-28-2012, 08:35 PM
Anybody know what happens to an electric service that's been submerged? New breakers and meters, or everything gets ripped out?

Most everything will need to be ripped out to the studs. Sheet rock, finish flooring, electrical, cabinetry, etc. will need to be replaced. About the only thing that can survive flooding is plumbing. If you watched any of the rehab in the lower 9th ward in New Orleans that's about what to expect. I sure do wish you well.

When I built my shop by code it had to be above the 100 year flood level.

I too live in a flood plain and have flood insurance, but the neighborhood has never flooded in at least the past 100 years. The city also recently built a retention pond and made other upgrades to the storm water system. Prior to the construction our yard & the neighbor's yard served as a small neighborhood retention pond. Since the upgrades were made we have had not standing water in our yard (knock on wood).

BTW, we're probably 2 or 3 miles from the Ohio river.

oldtiffie
10-29-2012, 12:24 AM
"Retention ponds" are also known as "retardation basins" as they take in lots of fast-flowing water, store it and let it out slowly to drains after a pre-determined time. The out-let drain can be one or a number of pipes with a shallow big open drain above it to take excess/over-flow water from te the pipes and retard it as well.

browne92
10-29-2012, 02:57 PM
"Retention ponds" are also known as "retardation basins" as they take in lots of fast-flowing water, store it and let it out slowly to drains after a pre-determined time. The out-let drain can be one or a number of pipes with a shallow big open drain above it to take excess/over-flow water from te the pipes and retard it as well.

What he's dealing with is way beyond retention pond. I haven't seen what kind of storm surge they're expecting, but Rita and Ike each had a 20 foot storm surge. If it was within the first few miles of the coast and was built on a slab, that's all that was left. If it wasn't, it was just gone. This isn't rain out of the sky, it the ocean rising up. After 2 storm surge floods in 3 years, I moved to higher ground.

gellfex
10-29-2012, 06:12 PM
Well, it's going to be close, but I'm as prepared as I can be, I think, without having about 100 sandbags. I've triaged the small tools and anything with a high value is boxed to go. I've sealed the back basement door and literally barricaded it by lagging a 2x4 to the floor and bracing another to the door, with another bracing the top of the door to the joists. I sealed the front sidewalk hatch doors. I've got 4 1/2 hp electric pumps with a generator standing by. I don't know if it'll keep out the tide, but I'm sure set for Zombies!

Right now the best prediction is a 8.5 tide, and I'm at 11 ft. My ground floor is another 18" up. But there's neighborhoods nearby at 6-7 ft, they're in trouble.

Weston Bye
10-29-2012, 06:26 PM
Keep up the posts as you can. Pictures would be nice, but we understand that you might get a little busy at the moment. Good luck!

Oldbrock
10-30-2012, 10:59 PM
Now we are all waiting to see if you and your tools survived. With a 12' reported flood height it could be iffy at best. We are hoping the news is good. Peter

gellfex
10-31-2012, 10:27 PM
Well, we made it! Just barely. As I said earlier, we're at 11' above sea level, the surge tide hit...11'. Streets 1/2 mile away were flooded. I had sewage & sea water squirting in every crack in my foundation and slab (the sewers are 100 year old masonry and leak into the fill) but the pumps and generator kept it down to a few inches. I had a tiny hole in the wall 3' off the floor peeing a stream.

I was watching the prediction & observed tide charts obsessively, and just after it crested we lost power. But it came on at 1 am this morning. We're lucky, there are streets nearby still without, and Hoboken is still flooded. I'm going to try and deliver my generator to friends there tomorrow, they might be a week without.

I need to seriously consider how to make that back basement door pressure tight so if the stairwell fills it can be held at bay. The frame is rotted anyway and needs replacement. Ideas are welcome, 100 year storms seem to be an annual occurrence lately.

browne92
10-31-2012, 11:21 PM
Glad to hear you made it. Two one hundred year floods in two years. You should be good to go for the next 198 years. Edit: Or would it be 202 years? :confused:

wierdscience
10-31-2012, 11:27 PM
Good to hear you made it!

Might want to keep an eye on the basement flooding aspect of it though if there is still a threat.After the power came back on here from Katrina it was on and off again for several weeks while things were being fixed.

darryl
10-31-2012, 11:37 PM
Glad to see you weren't badly affected by it. As far as sealing a door- first, which way does it open? If inwards, you would have to both resist water pressure, and keep leakage paths from developing. You're probably not going to get a leak-proof seal, so you are probably looking at the same situation you have now- a pumping ability greater than the total leakage.

The static pressure against a 30 inch wide door with water about 5 ft high is going to be about 600 lbs or so (rough mental calculation) so whatever method you use to keep the door from blowing inwards is going to have to resist that. Most of the pressure will be against the bottom of the door, so it needs to be very strong at that point. Whatever you anchor to will have to resist being sucked inwards as well. It's certainly not a trivial thing to accomplish.

If the door opens outwards, the frame itself will be taking the pressure, and will have to be securely fastened to something which will not give in either. Sealing it against leakage would be easier than keeping the door, the frame, and the walls holding it in place.

In our town we have a telephone switching center which needs to be kept dry. Each time there's a threat of flooding, they lay sheet rubber all around it and sandbag the portion which lays on the flat. The rubber goes up the walls and folds over sheets of plywood laying against the walls. In other words, the barrier is 4 ft high surrounding the building. They have a large propane tank there and a standby generator, and their expectation is the same- the sump pump has to be capable of pumping more out than leaks in.

Dr Stan
11-01-2012, 12:34 AM
I need to seriously consider how to make that back basement door pressure tight so if the stairwell fills it can be held at bay. The frame is rotted anyway and needs replacement. Ideas are welcome, 100 year storms seem to be an annual occurrence lately.

Yes they do seem to be coming very frequently, certainly more often than once in a hundred years.

Glad to hear you made it through without too much damage.

As others have pointed out you're dealing with some serious pressures and much depends on which way the door swings. Sounds like you almost need a water tight hatch as per US Naval vessels. That may not be as far fetched as it first seems.

Peter.
11-01-2012, 11:50 AM
I'm so glad to hear you came through it ok. You're a good friend for thinking of your friends and lending your stuff to help them too. Fair play to you.

Rustybolt
11-01-2012, 12:46 PM
Be careful. Your basement is essentially a boat. It isn't uncommon for a home owner to completely seal their basement and then have the whole foundation lift as the water table rises. I've seen houses lift four or five feet. The solution? Mover everything out of the basement and let it flood.

fjk
11-01-2012, 01:07 PM
Be careful. Your basement is essentially a boat. It isn't uncommon for a home owner to completely seal their basement and then have the whole foundation lift as the water table rises. I've seen houses lift four or five feet. The solution? Mover everything out of the basement and let it flood.

How about moving more heavy stuff into the basement?

I wonder what the people on this forum can come up with that might be heavy?