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jugs
08-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Found this on another forum - scary stuff


Proposed changes affecting UK bike riders

I know there are a few UK bike riders on here, I've just found out about some proposed EU changes that make scary reading http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/speechless.gif
Don't shoot the messenger, but just listing a summary here so you know about it

IMPORTANT please read this will affect you in the end.

EU internal marketing and consumer protection are currently in the process of passing "anti tampering" legislation amongst other things with regard to motorcycles....

I hear you say..."we're not bikers!"

if this goes through it WILL get extended to cars....

Some of the basics
no modification....at all, end of, finito benito.....incl tyres, air filter, exhausts even sprocket sizes.
only factory approved parts....incl spark plugs and only available to Approved service dealers.. end of home servicing
on board diognostics recording route, ryding style, speed an emmissions downloadable by the police and insurance companies
and the scariest
ALL MOTORCYLES OVER 7 YEARS OLD BANNED FROM URBAN AREAS

this is not a bit of scare mongering as it's gona be voted on in early October, if passed it's law with no input from parliament and customising bikes in the UK is over for good
see www,mag-uk.org
and http://www.ridersarevoters.org/ (http://www.ridersarevoters.org/)

There is a protest planned for 25th Sept, which could be quite good fun actually as it involves driving and we really should be supporting the bikers. I will be doing what I can ... I urge you all to do the same.


For more details visit the link above or read up on the forum I found it on,
full credit to the orginal posters see http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/top...-you-end-41335 (http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/topic/important-please-read-will-affect-you-end-41335)
On the plus side, there's some very impressive craftsmanship scattered around their forum

Have fun, apologies for being the bearer of bad news http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/sad.gif http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/hug.gif




ALL MOTORCYLES OVER 7 YEARS OLD BANNED FROM URBAN AREAS
I believe the French are doing that now.


Bloody regulators :mad:

PixMan
08-29-2011, 03:24 PM
That's outrageous. I hope it doesn't pass, but I just don't know how so many of your regulations get passed (don't get me started on rights to self-defense/guns) without an up swell of public protest.

Sadly, I firmly believe that we here will face the same thing in the not-too-distant future. There are too many riders here who seem to believe it is their God-given right to usurp existing public noise-related ordinances.

Others on motorcycles flout the laws regarding handlebar height, turn signals, display of tags, licensing, overall safe operation of motorcycles or all of the above. These riders do far more to endanger my right to ride than they do to preserve it, but I'm the pariah for pointing it out.

I'll be watching closely how this goes. I care.

Tanto
08-29-2011, 03:56 PM
Sorry John, bit I'm calling BS on this.


Some of the basics
no modification....at all, end of, finito benito.....incl tyres, air filter, exhausts even sprocket sizes.
only factory approved parts....incl spark plugs and only available to Approved service dealers.. end of home servicing
on board diognostics recording route, ryding style, speed an emmissions downloadable by the police and insurance companies
and the scariest
ALL MOTORCYLES OVER 7 YEARS OLD BANNED FROM URBAN AREAS

Most of this is coming from emission control requirements. The rather poorly written whinge above about being able to download "ryding style" etc comes from the requirement to have OBD on the bike. Big deal, that's been on cars for how long? So far I've been driving for what, 30 years, I don't recall ever being pulled over and having a police officer plug his OBD reader into my car's computer, download the fault codes and issue me with a ticket! :rolleyes:

As for the 7 year old law, last thing I heard that was still only a French hair-brain proposal.

Many of the proposals under this law already applies to cars. I agree, it's just another piece of EU legislation to be complied with, but I don't see the sky falling. I'm sure it's doing the RAV membership well though. I'm sure that's just a coincidence ;)

Black_Moons
08-29-2011, 04:07 PM
I just want all bikes without a muffler to be pulled over and shot. Is that so much to ask?

(the rider or the bike, I don't really care what one he shoots)

PS: I count a glasspack as a muffler. There is NO reason not to run a glasspack verus straight pipes, except to be annoying as hell.

For the record, I do ride a motorcycle, And only ONCE tryed it without a glasspack while expairmenting with the exhaust and being to lazy to put it back on... I stoped and turned around after 3 minutes, head down in shame over the noise it was making, back to the garage to put it back on.

jugs
08-29-2011, 04:27 PM
Tanto,
I dont think it's BS
read this - http://www.righttoride.eu/?p=6978

specifically this-


Article 18 of the proposal covers “Measures regarding modifications to the powertrain of vehicles”.
1. ‘Powertrain’ means the components and systems of a vehicle that generate power and deliver it to the road surface, including the engine(s), the engine management systems or any other control module, the pollution control devices, the transmission and its control, either a drive shaft or belt drive or chain drive, the differentials, the final drive, and the driven wheel tyre (radius).

2. L-category vehicles shall be equipped with designated measures to prevent tampering of a vehicle’s powertrain, to be laid down in a delegated act by means of a series of technical requirements and specifications with the aim:

(a) to prevent modifications that may prejudice safety, in particular by increasing vehicle performance through tampering with the powertrain in order to increase the maximum torque and/ or power and/or maximum designed vehicle speed as declared by the manufacturer of a vehicle upon type-approval, and/or

(b) to prevent damage to the environment.

3. The Commission shall lay down the specific requirements regarding the measures referred to in paragraph 2 by means of a delegated act adopted in accordance with Articles 76, 77 and 78.

4. After a modification of the powertrain, a vehicle shall comply with the technical requirements of the initial vehicle category and subcategory, or, if applicable, the new vehicle category and subcategory, which were in force when the original vehicle was sold, registered or entered into service, including the latest amendments to the requirements.

that includes a tyre change so if you buy a bike with dry tyres fitted it becomes an offense to fit wet or snow tyres :mad:


It's badly thought out legislation.................... again

MotorradMike
08-29-2011, 04:35 PM
I just want all bikes without a muffler to be pulled over and shot. Is that so much to ask?

(the rider or the bike, I don't really care what one he shoots)

PS: I count a glasspack as a muffler. There is NO reason not to run a glasspack verus straight pipes, except to be annoying as hell.

For the record, I do ride a motorcycle, And only ONCE tryed it without a glasspack while expairmenting with the exhaust and being to lazy to put it back on... I stoped and turned around after 3 minutes, head down in shame over the noise it was making, back to the garage to put it back on.

Not very sporting. Why not shoot them on the wing.

Seriously though, I agree with you about loud pipes.

Tanto
08-29-2011, 06:37 PM
John, no I think the proposed legislation is legit, but I just think the reaction is a bit over-the-top. As far as any powertrain modifications, again that already applies to cars in some jurisdictions. I know in at least some areas, and I'm not sure just how far it extends, it's illegal for a car to modified, yes including winter tyres. I have rented cars in Canada for example, middle of winter, yet the cars rented HAD to be sent out with standard tyres. This is not some hearsay or Google search, it's my own first hand experience. The reason is that the insurance company would not cover the insurance if any "modifications" were made to the vehicle :rolleyes: So I've had to drive dangerous vehicles unsuitable for the conditions simply to comply with the requirements of the insurance company. An absurdity as you say.

sasquatch
08-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Again these things are being decided by a much of tiny minded morons.

There is SO much going on in the background here in Ontario that never gets reported in the news media regarding new laws affecting private landowners. - "More and more regulations, restrictions, some of it just downright absurd.

Black_Moons
08-29-2011, 07:14 PM
Again these things are being decided by a much of tiny minded morons.

There is SO much going on in the background here in Ontario that never gets reported in the news media regarding new laws affecting private landowners. - "More and more regulations, restrictions, some of it just downright absurd.

My city is getting sued over its recent (Well, 3 years running) bylaws that violated basic privacy and SANITY and such. All in the name of 'Safty'.. Your safty that is.

Hope they get nailed to the wall.

aboard_epsilon
08-29-2011, 07:29 PM
I say sign this

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/356

there is already a petition there about motor cycles there..

but getting out of the EU will reach 100,000 first...and do more good.

all the best.markj

Evan
08-29-2011, 07:48 PM
I don't know about the UK or the US but it is illegal here to alter the suspension on any vehicle. That doesn't seem to stop anybody from jacking up the pickup for mud bogging and creek fording or raking the forks on a bike. They don't get pulled over unless the police need an excuse. Unenforced laws are the most dangerous.

jkilroy
08-29-2011, 08:13 PM
I don't think this is about emissions, though that will be the excuse, this is about making millions of people buy new bikes. The same idea as our cash for clunkers to try to "stimulate" the economy. Didn't work for us either.

I am correct that across the eurozone, millions of folks ride bikes as their primary transportation?

Peter.
08-29-2011, 09:39 PM
I would say so yes but not as many as Asia.

Years ago there was a German MEP who proposed a whole raft of rediculous restriction on bikers. It all came to nothing - lets hope this one does too. Currently there are no restrictions on modifying bikes whatsoever so long as they pas the yearly Ministry of Transort test. There are also no emmissions testing of bikes although many UK models have calylitic converters fitted.

There's also a large industry of manufacturers and suppliers of aftermarket parts that wil go to the wall if these rules get voted in.

Tanto
08-29-2011, 09:45 PM
Often the law is actually there but it effectively ignored by all. The problem only raises its ugly head if insurance companies try to weasel out of a claim, check the vehicle, find it is non-compliant and refuse coverage. That's why you sign to say that no modifications have been made to the vehicle.

sasquatch
08-29-2011, 09:52 PM
EVERYONE,,,, Needs to start standing up and fighting all these new regulations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Our kids and grandkids are not going to be able to do a damned thing, they'll be SO RESTRICTED!!

x39
08-29-2011, 10:32 PM
I just want all bikes without a muffler to be pulled over and shot. Is that so much to ask?
Can we expand that to include car drivers jabbering on their cell phones?

macona
08-29-2011, 10:36 PM
Can we expand that to include car drivers jabbering on their cell phones?

Cell phones are way down the list of accident causing habits below eating in the car and playing with the radio. Its just more visible.

boslab
08-29-2011, 10:52 PM
dont suppose you can argue with modification, some are predictably dangerous whare strength etc gets compromised for the sake of aesthetic whim, ive seen some wheels carved out well past the point of sensible, ok on a show bike but a bit silly on a moterway, tubes extended to give bonkers rakes, just short of unridable, your not allowed to cut half your car away and do silly things to the wheels, so why allow bikes to do the same? truth is the goverment really want to be seen to be dooing somthing that the car industry has been pushing for in the background for years, push people off bikes, its suprising how many more cars that will sell.
apart from that one thing to look at as far as legislation is concerened is when a contentious emotve set of laws is being paraded thru goverment is what other bills are sneaking through under the radar as a low turnout for a late sitting gets a biased vote, helped along by lobbyists, its normally a social security, single parent or smoking/drinking thing to get folks attention away from what realy is important and wanted by the goverment.
political slight of hand, they know it wont get through but itll take our minds off what will. any time theres a contentious bill then have a really good look at the rest, youll probably find the police have suddenly got some new powers but more likely theres a mod to taxation somewhere that gets the goverments hand further in your pocket!, whatever it is itl cost!
regards
mark

Tanto
08-30-2011, 12:05 AM
As Mark said, the law simply moves what's possible to do on a bike to what's legally able to be done to a car. Until now bikes have been exempt from a large number of rules and regulations.

Taken to the extreme, look at some of the crap turned out by OCC. On the one hand I admire what they do (did?) but on the other some of those bikes must be pigs to ride. I've seen the limits pushed even further, even on other TV shows, yet at the end they're able to simply wheel the things out and go ride. I don't know whether some of those bikes are on the road under a permit, or quite how it works, but I do know around where I live you wouldn't get to the end of the street before being pulled over. Yes in some ways it's a shame, but there are some true morons out there, and somebody has to set boundaries.

Mad Scientist
08-30-2011, 12:50 AM
EVERYONE,,,, Needs to start standing up and fighting all these new regulations,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Our kids and grandkids are not going to be able to do a damned thing, they'll be SO RESTRICTED!!

What is so surprising about this? The powers-that-be have been very slowly little by little, bit by bit stripping away at everyone rights and freedoms and gradually turning us into the prefect slave. One who still believes he is free but cannot do anything without first receiving the proper authorization.
Actions that just a few years ago would have been totally unthinkable are now accepted as the norm because many people have been already been turned into spineless eunuchs who dare not question their authorities. So yes this can only be turned around if people are willing to stand up and say NO!

jugs
08-30-2011, 03:37 AM
I don't know about the UK or the US but it is illegal here to alter the suspension on any vehicle. That doesn't seem to stop anybody from jacking up the pickup for mud bogging and creek fording or raking the forks on a bike. They don't get pulled over unless the police need an excuse. Unenforced laws are the most dangerous.

Aint that the truth,

For instance- in UK it's illegal to take a pram, baby buggy, wheel chair, on the footpath or pavement (sidewalk) they must by law be in the road with all other traffic. :eek:



The primary legislation which makes cycling on a footway an offence is section 72 of the 1835 Highways Act, this provides that a person shall be guilty of an offence if he “shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot-passengers or shall wilfully lead or drive any carriage of any description upon any such footpath or causeway.”
Section 85 of the Local Government Act 1888 extended the definition of “carriage” to include “bicycles, tricycles, velocipedes and other similar machines.”
The object of Section 72 Highways Act 1835 was intended not to protect all footpaths, but only footpaths or causeways by the side of a road, and that this is still the case has been ruled in the high court. The legislation makes no exceptions for small wheeled or children’s cycles, so even a child riding on a footway is breaking the law.


see also-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568475/Ten-stupidest-laws-are-named.html

Evan
08-30-2011, 09:28 AM
So then, I wonder what the constabulary would say if you were walking your pram in the traffic lane?

photomankc
08-30-2011, 10:26 AM
..... Unenforced laws are the most dangerous.

They are well loved by those that make them though. Hey, nobody has to worry right? We will be reasonable and not enforce that one. Unless of course you get a little unruly. Then we can pull out a mountain of violations we can stack on for a little arm-twisting.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

aboard_epsilon
08-30-2011, 10:41 AM
They are well loved by those that make them though. Hey, nobody has to worry right? We will be reasonable and not enforce that one. Unless of course you get a little unruly. Then we can pull out a mountain of violations we can stack on for a little arm-twisting.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

couldn't agree more with that ..

all the best.markj

Black_Moons
08-30-2011, 03:48 PM
They are well loved by those that make them though. Hey, nobody has to worry right? We will be reasonable and not enforce that one. Unless of course you get a little unruly. Then we can pull out a mountain of violations we can stack on for a little arm-twisting.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

damn right.

I still remember my driving tester.. Freaking out at my (Very lightly, never even noticed it before) tinted side windows (Truck came like that when I bought it)

She spent 5 mins looking at the tiny little numbers printed on em. Eventualy saying "Well, It looks like they are legal... But if a cop pulls us over, I can't do anything to help you!"

Made me wanna facedash right there. (Facepalm was just not enough)

Meanwhile, I had the canopy on the truck, And its windows where tinted *black*. And the rear window on the canopy. Also with a moderately dark tint on the rear window of the truck itself. They failed me for not making right hand shoulder checks.... you can't see out the back of my truck. Doing a right hand shoulder check involves looking through 2 black tinted windows, You could only see a car if it was nighttime and they had thier hibeams on. (I have since removed that canopy. Wish it wasent tinted. but it came with the truck). Basicly meaning a right hand shoulder check involves looking away from the road, and looking at... black... Iv no idea how looking at black is safer then looking where the hell im going.

Either the black rear tint should be illegal, or you should'nt be made to try and look through it. But she freaks out about the 3% (or whatever it was) side window tint.

... I really hate people.

BillTodd
08-30-2011, 04:59 PM
The primary legislation which makes cycling on a footway an offence is section 72 of the 1835 Highways Act,

The Highways act was amended in 1980 includes the provision for cycleways on footpaths etc. - but that won't stop the newspaper's spreading the BS.

jugs
08-30-2011, 06:54 PM
The Highways act was amended in 1980 includes the provision for cycleways on footpaths etc. - but that won't stop the newspaper's spreading the BS.

But, under the primary legislation (the 1835 Highways Act) it is still an offense to use a wheelchair on any footpath that is not designated a 'cycleway' under the 1980 act.

Bizarrely under the 1980 act, a motorized street cleaning machine is allowed on the footpath - but a child's pram is not :eek: .

The main provisions of the 1980 act was to set out ownership of highways & give a framework for maintenance, finance & reclassification eg; trunk roads & motorways, incorporating amendments from the 1959 & 1971 acts. - The 1980 act (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/contents)



PS -The 1835 act is the one they use to prosecute cyclists even though it was 30yrs before the first Bone-shaker bicycle :mad:

Circlip
08-31-2011, 03:47 AM
truth is the goverment really want to be seen to be dooing somthing that the car industry has been pushing for in the background for years, push people off bikes, its suprising how many more cars that will sell.

Yep, but it doesn't allow for lack of insurance for the masses that don't bother to insure for whatever reason.

Makes good sport for the plods cars fitted with NRS though.


Strange fact though, in the electronic super highway how many have been told "It's the computers fault", be it the system, operator or whatever when delays occurr?

PC. Plod can give you the complete history of your vehicle within thirty seconds of you offending his eye.

Regards Ian.

Dawai
08-31-2011, 06:23 AM
Constitutional law dictates all US citizens have "right to freely travel upon any roadway interstate or otherwise without any restrictions".. A good attorney can take that to mean, tags, drivers licenses, forced insurance and any other toll fees. THE tag office was started to collect revenue from commercial applications. It has since became a joke. They enforce it under the guise of public safety.

In Reality, as the local governments "grab for money" they send the boys in blue out to fee collect to make ends meet and make payrolls.

A law passed and not enforced for a "while" allows it to be enforced later.

Helmet laws? if a insured person wishes to damage his head in a accident by not wearing one? is it his right? Does the government have the right to protect him from himself? NON-health insured people should not have a choice, they become a burden upon society when they become a vegetable on life support.

Pollution laws.. well.. if they go after my motorcycle, a LEV, they should go after the neighbors riding lawnmower too. Here, the Tax Commissioners office collects fees on tractors and farm implements, just like they do on road vehicles.

Evan
08-31-2011, 02:45 PM
Ok, I am fairly well up on British slang but I had to look this one up.



Plod or P.C.Plod is a British slang term used to refer to a police officer, particularly one slow-witted or dull. A more recent variant is the plod, meaning the police force in general. The term originates from the character Mr. Plod, a police officer in the Noddy stories written by Enid Blyton.

[1] A variant is MOD PLOD, referring to the British Ministry of Defence Police clearly resulting from the above civilian slang.

PLOD or P.L.O.D. is an acronym for Police Link Officers for Deaf people. Established in 1999 by the Hampshire Constabulary (UK), Link Officers aim to promote equality of access to the Police for deaf, deaf-blind, deafened and hard of hearing people. Similar schemes are being introduced by other police forces.

Evan
08-31-2011, 02:51 PM
Helmet laws? if a insured person wishes to damage his head in a accident by not wearing one?

Very recently an anti-helmet law protestor exercised both his right to not wear a helmet while riding a motorbike but also his right to die by his own hand.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/kfojsnsneyid/rss2/

MrSleepy
08-31-2011, 03:01 PM
PLOD or P.L.O.D. is an acronym for Police Link Officers for Deaf people. Established in 1999 by the Hampshire Constabulary

Dont think so..What were the Bluebottles smoking when they thought up that one.

Rob

Circlip
08-31-2011, 03:15 PM
Thought the term came from "Plodding the beat" in size nines as opposed to mounties and z cars.

Regards Ian.

aboard_epsilon
08-31-2011, 03:29 PM
its from the books of Enid Blyton

PC plod was featured in noddy i think

all the best.markj

MaxHeadRoom
08-31-2011, 03:41 PM
Thought the term came from "Plodding the beat" in size nines as opposed to mounties and z cars.

Regards Ian.

Police Commonly known as 'The Plod' or the one no one seems sure of the origin, 'The Old Bill'.?
Max.

aboard_epsilon
08-31-2011, 04:00 PM
Keep glued to the uk news ..there may be another battle with plod in the next few days

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/31/dale-farm-travellers-lose-eviction

they are already building a portcullis over the road into the camp

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01368/dale1_682_1368728a.jpg

another waco ..who knows

all the best.markj

jugs
08-31-2011, 04:41 PM
Keep glued to the uk news ..there may be another battle with plod in the next few days

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/au...-lose-eviction (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/31/dale-farm-travellers-lose-eviction)

they are already building a portcullis over the road into the camp




Why do the council want to break up a cohesive community @ a cost of £18 million :eek:



Private firms have been contracted to carry out the eviction, which could cost the council up to £8m, with a further £10m in police costs.


I'm sure that action will make the travelers want to join our mainstream society :rolleyes: & why is our society so fearful of any one with a different way of life :confused:

aboard_epsilon
08-31-2011, 04:49 PM
Probably something to do with them not paying taxes ..and everywhere they go ..manhole covers ..and lead roofing disappear right before the councils eyes.

all the best.markj

Scottike
08-31-2011, 04:59 PM
As Mark said, the law simply moves what's possible to do on a bike to what's legally able to be done to a car. Until now bikes have been exempt from a large number of rules and regulations.

Taken to the extreme, look at some of the crap turned out by OCC. On the one hand I admire what they do (did?) but on the other some of those bikes must be pigs to ride. I've seen the limits pushed even further, even on other TV shows, yet at the end they're able to simply wheel the things out and go ride. I don't know whether some of those bikes are on the road under a permit, or quite how it works, but I do know around where I live you wouldn't get to the end of the street before being pulled over. Yes in some ways it's a shame, but there are some true morons out there, and somebody has to set boundaries.

There's something to be said for the laws of physics, they are totally enforced, but the state gets no money when they are violated.
But the violator usually pays in their own way - depending on how severe the violation was.

Black_Moons
08-31-2011, 05:03 PM
Probably something to do with them not paying taxes ..and everywhere they go ..manhole covers ..and lead roofing disappear right before the councils eyes.

all the best.markj

So charge them with that instead?

I could never understand "A is illegal because it leads to B! and B is a crime!"
... B is a crime, yes, So we can punish people for B. We could just punish people worse for B untill they stop doing B. Catching people for doing A is not catching people for doing B.

By the same logic, LIVING leads to all crime, and everyone who breaths should be arrested because being free and living leads to crime, Why, every single person who has commited a crime was living at some point or another!

aboard_epsilon
08-31-2011, 05:10 PM
So charge them with that instead?

I could never understand "A is illegal because it leads to B! and B is a crime!"
... B is a crime, yes, So we can punish people for B. We could just punish people worse for B untill they stop doing B. Catching people for doing A is not catching people for doing B.

By the same logic, LIVING leads to all crime, and everyone who breaths should be arrested because being free and living leads to crime, Why, every single person who has commited a crime was living at some point or another!


They have no main home ..so no where to send the fine ..

they don't have real names ...so they cant id them to prosecute them .

and they all act as one ..in a confrontation with any one of them

all the best.markj

Black_Moons
08-31-2011, 05:11 PM
There's something to be said for the laws of physics, they are totally enforced, but the state gets no money when they are violated.
But the violator usually pays in their own way - depending on how severe the violation was.

Exactly, I think insurance requirements and COST of insurance, should be directly related to weight of the vehical

How big of a dent in the side of your car does a 30lb moped make?
How big of a dent does a 300lb motorbike make? How big of a dent does a 3,000lb SUV make? How big of a 'dent' does a 30,000lb tractor trailer make?

Modifyers could then be applyed to 'safty'. Jack your truck up? Insurance rates go up along with your center of gravity.

Modify your suspension? You get placed in the insurance bracket for cars with modifyed suspension.

Do your own brake jobs? You get to pay extra based on how many crashs per year are attributed to failed home brake jobs.

Make your own car from scratch? Either get placed in an uninspected homebrew catagory, or get an inspection and have them adjust your rates depending on what the inspector says about your workmanship.

And how about distance driven per year (Just give em your damn odometer readings when you buy new insurance, And they adjust your new rate depending on how far you drove during your last insured period, First year with car, you just estimate, and they can recoop the actual milage costs on sale of the car with tax collected, or on the next time you get insurance, or when the cops come and drag the wreck off the road)

Why would someone who only drives there homemade buggy once a month pay the same insurance as someone who drives a heavily modifyed pickup truck 2 hours to work every day?

MrSleepy
08-31-2011, 05:14 PM
Keep glued to the uk news ..there may be another battle with plod in the next few days

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/31/dale-farm-travellers-lose-eviction



That could lead to disaster...they could up sticks and move to where I live.
Leave'm be I say :)..

Rob

gary350
08-31-2011, 05:24 PM
OH......this is about motor cycles not bikes.

I ride a bicycle and I know about 50 people that ride bicycles too. I don't know anyone that rides a motor cycles.

In Japan they have a law when a vehicle gets 30K miles it has to be sold for scrap metal, they have very strick air polution laws. My Son bought a used engine for his car with 30K miles shipped to our USA Front Door total price was only about $600.

jugs
08-31-2011, 06:53 PM
Probably something to do with them not paying taxes ..and everywhere they go ..manhole covers ..and lead roofing disappear right before the councils eyes.

all the best.markj

Just like - politicians, bankers, most large international companies & their top executives, in fact most people who think they can cet away with it.

While there are thieves & scroats among them, (as with all communities) Travelers have a low involvement with drugs & prostitution.........thats the domain of the nice people who live in houses.

I don't see how marginalization of travelers improves them or us :confused:

Black_Moons
08-31-2011, 08:30 PM
They have no main home ..so no where to send the fine ..
they don't have real names ...so they cant id them to prosecute them .
and they all act as one ..in a confrontation with any one of them
all the best.markj

If they have no main home, they have no property to be taxed. If they have no income to report.. No tax.

As far as thieft and such, That does not matter who they say they are, they would be arrested and kept in jail untill prosecuted.

lazlo
08-31-2011, 08:32 PM
Cell phones are way down the list of accident causing habits below eating in the car and playing with the radio. Its just more visible.

I find that really hard to believe. 9 times out of 10 when you see a car swaying on the road, randomly speeding up or slowing down, or driving 10 miles below the speed limit, it's because they're on the phone.

After several high publicity fatalities, Texas passed a law that you can't drive in a school zone while talking on a cell phone, but they were too chickensh!t to extend that to all driving.

Edit: just looked it up:


Deaths Related to Drivers Distracted by Cell Phone Use (http://ilookbothways.com/2010/10/14/deaths-related-to-drivers-distracted-by-cell-phone-use/)

The increase in texting while driving is estimated to have caused more than 16,000 additional road fatalities between 2001- 2007 according to new research published in the American Journal of Public Health.

The research, looked at data from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), which records the causes of all U.S. road fatalities and matched it with trends in cell phone use and texting volumes to calculate the impact.

The research also found that “crashes increasingly involved male drivers driving alone in collisions with roadside obstructions in urban areas” – the types of crashes we have traditionally associated with drunk driving. This finding appears to be in line with research that indicates texting while driving is equivalent to driving under the influence.

“For teens over the last 20 years, [alcohol related] fatal accidents have dropped by about 60 percent. In that same amount of time other fatal crashes for teens have gone up by about 35 percent, so that now, distracted driving and other things that are non-alcohol related are eclipsing the total numbers of fatalities that you see with alcohol. We’ve just traded drunk driving for distracted driving” says David Strayer, a cognitive scientist at the University of Utah who has been involved in a number of studies measuring cell phone use and crashes.

A new report issued by the U.S. Transportation Department said 5,474 people died in 4,898 crashes linked to distracted driving in 2009. Of those, about 1,000 involved cell phones.

lakeside53
08-31-2011, 08:44 PM
In Japan they have a law when a vehicle gets 30K miles it has to be sold for scrap metal, they have very strick air polution laws. .


I think you'll find that this isn't quite true. After 5 years the car has to go though rigorous testing and to be relicenced, restored to "like new". At this time many trade it in rather then go though the hassle. It's hard to do more than 20-30k in many cities in 5 years.. so that why you see low mileage engines and cars (right hand drive countries).

Evan
08-31-2011, 09:35 PM
Japan doesn't have any mandatory scrapping program. They do have a "Cash for Clunkers" program much the same as the USA and other countries.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/19/retire-us-japan-usa-trade-idUSTRE60I29K20100119

aboard_epsilon
09-01-2011, 10:30 AM
I find that really hard to believe. 9 times out of 10 when you see a car swaying on the road, randomly speeding up or slowing down, or driving 10 miles below the speed limit, it's because they're on the phone.

After several high publicity fatalities, Texas passed a law that you can't drive in a school zone while talking on a cell phone, but they were too chickensh!t to extend that to all driving.

Edit: just looked it up:
Deaths Related to Drivers Distracted by Cell Phone Use (http://ilookbothways.com/2010/10/14/deaths-related-to-drivers-distracted-by-cell-phone-use/)

The increase in texting while driving is estimated to have caused more than 16,000 additional road fatalities between 2001- 2007 according to new research published in the American Journal of Public Health.

The research, looked at data from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), which records the causes of all U.S. road fatalities and matched it with trends in cell phone use and texting volumes to calculate the impact.

The research also found that “crashes increasingly involved male drivers driving alone in collisions with roadside obstructions in urban areas” – the types of crashes we have traditionally associated with drunk driving. This finding appears to be in line with research that indicates texting while driving is equivalent to driving under the influence.

“For teens over the last 20 years, [alcohol related] fatal accidents have dropped by about 60 percent. In that same amount of time other fatal crashes for teens have gone up by about 35 percent, so that now, distracted driving and other things that are non-alcohol related are eclipsing the total numbers of fatalities that you see with alcohol. We’ve just traded drunk driving for distracted driving” says David Strayer, a cognitive scientist at the University of Utah who has been involved in a number of studies measuring cell phone use and crashes.

A new report issued by the U.S. Transportation Department said 5,474 people died in 4,898 crashes linked to distracted driving in 2009. Of those, about 1,000 involved cell phones.
Bloody dangerous things ..people cant even walk on the pavement and look where they are going ..whilst constantly figit-ing with these things ..and bumping into you

For some ..maybe a lot...Their whole world revolves around those tiny boxes of crap..


I DON'T CARE, IF THEY KILL THEMSELVES WHILST DRIVING WHEN MESSING WITH THE THINGS ..I DO CARE, IF THEY COULD KILL ME, OR OTHERS, OR SERIOUSLY INJURE OTHERS.

all the best.markj

psomero
09-01-2011, 11:03 AM
the E-mark for anti-tampering on all factory drivetrain components is a reality already.

i work for a motorcycle manufacturer who ships to many countries in europe and australia and we have to homologate our products before we can ship them. part of this process is certifying that each component (motor, wheel sprocket, etc) must be stamped with a marking identifying what it is (i.e. RS98T means rear sprocket, 98t). on our sprockets, which are powdered metal or die cast, the marking is permanently embossed into the tooling.

as far as i know, they aren't specifically banning any older vintage rides outright as of yet, but it wouldn't surprise me.


i doubt the markings really do much. we used to get away with using a high bond label on prior model years and it'd be ridiculously easy to fake one there's such little identifying information provided on the label and it'd be an insurmountable task to keep track of every OE part that could possibly be in play for every possible model of bike on the road. one could easily get a different sprocket and slap a sticker or engrave the proper looking markings onto it and unless an official were to stop them and do a tooth count of the sprocket, there'd be no way to tell the difference.

i'm not trying to condone any dishonesty here, but it seems like anybody who wishes to do it could get away with it very easily.

Mad Scientist
09-01-2011, 03:49 PM
Obviously we have areas were some regulation is needed and required and it can be a good thing. But the problem is when government and bureaucrats start regulating they don’t know when to stop.

We have had grade school kids harassed for operating lemonade stands without a permit.
A vaccine which is know to have long term heath side effects has been forced onto 5&6 year old girls to prevent sexually transmitted diseases.
A man was facing a possible live sentence for taking pictures of the police doing their job. I believe that one was just overturned.
A small ice-cream stop was shut down because it was using fresh fruits in their products not the pasteurized versions.
The manufacture of Gibson Guitars has been raided and told they are not allowed to use imported wood.
An unemployed woman was told she was having too many garage sales. She was selling off her belongings to help pay for her cancer treatments.
Another woman was told she could not plant a garden in her front yard. That one drew enough negative publicity and was over turned.


So if we are not willing to stand up and tell the authorities enough is enough and it is time to stop do not be surprised if you find the authorities knocking in your door and asking what are making with that illegal lathe and milling machine.

lazlo
09-01-2011, 03:53 PM
A vaccine which is know to have long term heath side effects has been forced onto 5&6 year old girls to prevent sexually transmitted diseases.

Yeah, ironically that was Rick Perry's brain child. If you know Texas, and Texans at all, you'd know that's completely out of character to suddenly decide to force vaccinations of 5th grade girls for STD's.

The problem is that Perry's Chief of Staff is the former lobbyist for the pharmaceutical company that manufactures the vaccine.

Only in America :rolleyes:

Black_Moons
09-01-2011, 03:58 PM
Obviously we have areas were some regulation is needed and required and it can be a good thing. But the problem is when government and bureaucrats start regulating they don’t know when to stop.

We have had grade school kids harassed for operating lemonade stands without a permit.
A vaccine which is know to have long term heath side effects has been forced onto 5&6 year old girls to prevent sexually transmitted diseases.
A man was facing a possible live sentence for taking pictures of the police doing their job. I believe that one was just overturned.
A small ice-cream stop was shut down because it was using fresh fruits in their products not the pasteurized versions.
The manufacture of Gibson Guitars has been raided and told they are not allowed to use imported wood.
An unemployed woman was told she was having too many garage sales. She was selling off her belongings to help pay for her cancer treatments.
Another woman was told she could not plant a garden in her front yard. That one drew enough negative publicity and was over turned.


So if we are not willing to stand up and tell the authorities enough is enough and it is time to stop do not be surprised if you find the authorities knocking in your door and asking what are making with that illegal lathe and milling machine.

Pertty much, You do know the government is there.. FOR YOU right? Not for thier own self serving intrests, Not for large industral groups to say your not allowed to grow a garden or use fresh fruits, Not to inject your kids with drugs you don't agree with (But are likey forced to pay for, through the nose, by your taxes, because they where given exclusive rights to make the drug, and then spent millions of dollars to ensure that every kid HAD to be injected with it, making millions more back)

Apparently the government has long since forgotten its perpose, and now is just trying to find **** to do since all the real laws have allready long since been passed and put into effect (Don't steal, Don't rape, Don't kill, Don't scam people, don't dump toxic waste, Basic laws like that..)

mike os
09-01-2011, 03:59 PM
Only in America :rolleyes:


I wish.......:mad:

Tanto
09-01-2011, 05:36 PM
And how about distance driven per year (Just give em your damn odometer readings when you buy new insurance, And they adjust your new rate depending on how far you drove during your last insured period, First year with car, you just estimate, and they can recoop the actual milage costs on sale of the car with tax collected, or on the next time you get insurance, or when the cops come and drag the wreck off the road)

Why would someone who only drives there homemade buggy once a month pay the same insurance as someone who drives a heavily modifyed pickup truck 2 hours to work every day?

You don't have that already where you live? I just renewed my insurance yesterday on one of our cars using that very system. Saved around 25% as the vehicle only does around 3000 miles per year. There are a number of insurance companies around us who will ask a huge number of questions, including the number of miles travelled, before providing a quote. For people like myself, about as low risk as they come, the premiums are reduced considerably. Higher risk, higher premiums. Simple.

I agree with Lazlo, I can't believe any claim that changing radio stations results in a greater number of accidents than phone usage. Talking on the phone is one thing, but it's more the use of text messaging that's extremely dangerous. I don't think many young people realize just how far a car travels in the time when they're sending smilies to all and sundry!

aboard_epsilon
09-01-2011, 05:53 PM
You don't have that already where you live? I just renewed my insurance yesterday on one of our cars using that very system. Saved around 25% as the vehicle only does around 3000 miles per year. There are a number of insurance companies around us who will ask a huge number of questions, including the number of miles travelled, before providing a quote. For people like myself, about as low risk as they come, the premiums are reduced considerably. Higher risk, higher premiums. Simple.

I agree with Lazlo, I can't believe any claim that changing radio stations results in a greater number of accidents than phone usage. Talking on the phone is one thing, but it's more the use of text messaging that's extremely dangerous. I don't think many young people realize just how far a car travels in the time when they're sending smilies to all and sundry!

What we have now is billions of kids growing up obsessed with texting on phones ..

I see them all the time ..they cant leave the bloody things alone ..at it, as long as they are awake ..the obsession carries on when they drive.

I can only see the situation getting worse .

I can see the day , when it wont be safe to drive on the roads with all those pratts tapping away at their little plastic boxes.

The insurance companies should offer discounts for people that tell them they don't own a mobile phone .

or they should put inertia devices in them that prevent them working in text mode at over 4 mph.

all the best.markj

photomankc
09-01-2011, 09:31 PM
Only in America :rolleyes:

No, I'm afraid not.

wierdscience
09-01-2011, 09:50 PM
You don't have that already where you live? I just renewed my insurance yesterday on one of our cars using that very system. Saved around 25% as the vehicle only does around 3000 miles per year. There are a number of insurance companies around us who will ask a huge number of questions, including the number of miles travelled, before providing a quote. For people like myself, about as low risk as they come, the premiums are reduced considerably. Higher risk, higher premiums. Simple.

Is the driver's record still taken into account?I could see a problem if a person was a s----y driver,but only drove 300 miles a year:rolleyes:

Evan
09-01-2011, 10:09 PM
The problem with cell phones is that they are full duplex. The person you are talking to can't see the traffic situation and doesn't know when to shut up and let you drive. We can talk just fine or we can listen just fine (CB radio) but talking and listening at the same time takes a lot more brain processing power. This was investigated by I can't remember whom and this was the conclusion.

When you have somebody in the car with you they will observe the traffic situation and shut up when you shouldn't be distracted. Not so on a cell phone. CB radio was never a problem since you have the ability to stop talking and stop listening by holding the xmit button down. Plus, you only have to process half the conversation at a time. The same applies to aircraft communications. You will never see full duplex comm to the pilots for the same reason.

Texting of course has the primary problem of requiring you to take your eyes off the road. That is obviously a bad idea. It is especially bad because it requires you to change focus each time you glance down to see what you have written or what the reply is. It would be a great deal safer if the text were displayed on a heads up display at infinity focus. We don't usually have much problem reading road signs while driving.

x39
09-01-2011, 11:28 PM
My guess is tort law will put an end to the cell phone problem at some point.

Tanto
09-02-2011, 05:33 AM
Is the driver's record still taken into account?I could see a problem if a person was a s----y driver,but only drove 300 miles a year:rolleyes:

Yes, the questions involve both insurance history and driving convictions, indeed they are standard questions for auto insurance, at least where I live anyway.

lazlo
09-02-2011, 11:41 AM
My guess is tort law will put an end to the cell phone problem at some point.

Boy, I hope so! Up in Dallas, there are a bunch of billboards paid for by the insurance lobby: "Hang up and drive!"

A co-worker and I were discussing cell phones in cars yesterday on the way to lunch. We were stopped at a busy intersection, the light turned green, and the lead car didn't go. Guy in a pickup truck talking on his cell phone. The car behind him didn't notice, because the driver was looking down at his cell phone, either scanning for messages or looking for a number. The car next to us was the prototypical Soccer Mom, driving a gigantic (empty) SUV head tilted, holding up her cell phone to her freshly colored hair.

Notice, in that totally unscientific sample, no teenagers.


Texting of course has the primary problem of requiring you to take your eyes off the road. That is obviously a bad idea. It is especially bad because it requires you to change focus each time you glance down to see what you have written or what the reply is.

...and increasingly, surfing. Now that most cell phone have a web browser, I see a lot of folks web surfing in the car. Ironic, since it's illegal to have a video display in the front of a car, but it's OK to surf the web :rolleyes:

Black_Moons
09-02-2011, 02:10 PM
You think thats bad, iv seen the soccer mom, with 2 kids in the SUV, driving along a crowded city street with shops on both sides, and the only parking along the street, so constantly people running across the street and constantly people pulling out or stoping to pull in, On her cell phone...

I screamed at the top of my lungs and pointed "THATS ILLEGAL!", Just to shame her infront of her kids... After she cut me off without looking -_-

Alistair Hosie
09-02-2011, 03:49 PM
I can understand this a bit.I used to watch the tuttles make dangerously finished bikes with very sharp bits poking out.They would then go out and drive them on the road ,is that legal? Here you would need to get home made bikes ,or cars, checked fitst my the MOT ministry of transport to give you a certificate to allow the said machine to be used legally. I say no bad thing in my book. Bikes need to be safe as well as good looking .On a second point Mark I love being a member of the European Union it's good for Britain no doubt. I would love to see a united states of Europe,hopefully with the Germans running our economy.Alistair

Alistair Hosie
09-02-2011, 03:52 PM
Black m oons when we had anaval base here in my tow of Dunoon I drove behind an american car at five miles an hour for twenty minutes the driver an American lady was driving with a baby of a few months old on her lap that beats all in my book I told her it was illegaL but she was unrepentant telling me she was having trouble with her car and I could fu** off.There was a jole long tailback . Alistair

Black_Moons
09-02-2011, 04:01 PM
Nearly killed today by a guy passing me.. in the middle of 2 lanes.. while someone else was passing me legaly in the other lane. (2 lanes of 1 way traffic, I was doing 45 (Very dense commerical area with peds constantly jwalking or crossing the street or cars pulling out/into parking lot), guy next to me was doing 50 (Legal speed limit) guy passing us was doing 60.

Ended up honking my horn and getting into an arguement with him. (110db air horn *HONK HONKKKKK HONKKKKKKKK* "NOT FUNNY, You could of killed me!" "Then get a real vehicel!" "I have as much right to be on this road as you do (More technicaly, since he had a busted headlight and was illegaly passing people)" "I'll give you one chance to shut up!" "#$@^ OFF!"

I turned around, went on the sidewalk and pedaled at 10kph (jogging speed).

Good bloody luck following me in your real vehicel now! Assholes. Hope he gets pulled over by a cop. No, actualy, I hope he gets smashed by one of the logging trucks that freqent these roads as he trys to pass someone illegal again.

Some people get so damn insane when you put them into a steel cage.

No cell phone mind you, just an asshole.

Please, For the love of all things, If you pass a bicyclist, Consider him to be using the WHOLE lane. If you can't take over the entire other lane to pass him, its illegal and unsafe to pass him! I don't care how far to the right of the road he is (Unless hes clearly on the sidewalk or bicycle lane, ie: in his own lane)

You would'nt pass another car in the middle of two lanes, Don't pass a bike. (or motorbike)

aboard_epsilon
09-02-2011, 04:10 PM
EU

our roads fall to bits, people are loosing their homes

but they insist on offering grants for prestatyn ..my home town ..grants of hundreds of thousands ..to be spent on "art" sculptures..and sculptures only !! ...or cycle paths that no one uses.

the polo mint

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3l0isNMxlQg/THx-kBujFXI/AAAAAAAAAR4/_f9BiBHQ-pE/s1600/29082010-789161.jpg

Giant Roman helmet

http://www.rhyl-prestatyn.co.uk/images/attractions/slide02.jpg

still to come ..Giant stainless steel bucket and spade at the railway station .

all the best.markj

x39
09-02-2011, 05:42 PM
They would then go out and drive them on the road ,is that legal? Here you would need to get home made bikes ,or cars, checked fitst my the MOT ministry of transport to give you a certificate to allow the said machine to be used legally.
Alistair, chances are that the Teutels/OCC are registered as manufacturers (generating their own Vehicle Identification Numbers) and can bypass all that. In the state where I live, homemade vehicles are required to be inspected by a State Police officer before they can be registered. There are ways around it, but that is the law.

x39
09-02-2011, 05:44 PM
Giant Roman helmet
I was wondering where I'd left that thing. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a hat that size?

Gravy
09-02-2011, 07:09 PM
Please, For the love of all things, If you pass a bicyclist, Consider him to be using the WHOLE lane. If you can't take over the entire other lane to pass him, its illegal and unsafe to pass him! I don't care how far to the right of the road he is (Unless hes clearly on the sidewalk or bicycle lane, ie: in his own lane)

You would'nt pass another car in the middle of two lanes, Don't pass a bike. (or motorbike)


Black Moons -

There was a trick question in a motorcycle magazine some years back - "How much width of a lane does a cycle take up?"

Answer: "All of it".

Any vehicle legally "owns" the entire width of the lane.

When I'm on my motorcycle, I make a point of using the whole lane. I drift right and left to suit conditions. I make it obvious that the whole freakin' lane is MINE! I cringe when I see scooter riders hugging the right edge. However, my motorcycle goes faster and accelerates to the speed limit much more quickly than a bicycle or a DUI scooter.

But on the other hand, as a practical matter, on a bicycle you often can't use the whole lane without being unreasonably inconsiderate and maybe suicidal. If you can't keep up with the flow of traffic, it's probably time to look at alternatives.

There's a non-Biblical proverb that covers it: "When you share the trail with elephants, if anyone stumbles, you lose".

You may have the right but the jerks in the big vehicles will still crush you into tomato paste.

Be careful out there.

PixMan
09-02-2011, 08:00 PM
>> I cringe when I see scooter riders hugging the right edge. However, my motorcycle goes faster and accelerates to the speed limit much more quickly than a bicycle or a DUI scooter. <<



I'll bite...what the heck is a "DUI scooter"?

wierdscience
09-02-2011, 08:25 PM
Black Moons -

There was a trick question in a motorcycle magazine some years back - "How much width of a lane does a cycle take up?"

Answer: "All of it".

Any vehicle legally "owns" the entire width of the lane.

.

Ahhh there is your problem your still living in a world where there are actual lanes and rules on how they are to be used.The rest of the motoring public has moved beyond that and now wonders who painted those diffrent colored lines on the road and what they mean;) :D

Ian B
09-03-2011, 06:02 AM
Pixman,

Here you go:

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_north_pinellas/clearwater/so-called-'dui-scooters'-markets-to-those-who-lost-license

lazlo
09-03-2011, 11:11 AM
I used to watch the tuttles make dangerously finished bikes with very sharp bits poking out.They would then go out and drive them on the road ,is that legal?

Alistair, American Chopper is Reality TV -- in other words, scripted low-brow entertainment. I wouldn't read anything more into it than that :)

If you want to see real artisans, the "Biker Build-Off" series (also on Discovery Channel) is excellent, IMHO.


http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_north_pinellas/clearwater/so-called-'dui-scooters'-markets-to-those-who-lost-license


"Sunset Scooters in Clearwater is marketing electric scooters to those who have lost their driver’s license through a DUI conviction.

Jock Wallace remembers that August night nearly a decade ago. He said “I got my third DUI, which caused me to lose my license for 10 years.”
Then one day, “I was riding by with a friend, and saw the sign ‘We have DUI scooters’”

Oh, my head. :rolleyes:

Black_Moons
09-03-2011, 02:10 PM
Pixman,

Here you go:

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_north_pinellas/clearwater/so-called-'dui-scooters'-markets-to-those-who-lost-license

Great idea. I don't think you should need a lisence or insurance if your vehicel is under the weight of... Putting a dangeriously large dent in the other vehicel it hits. Because its very self regulating.

As far as the arguement of 'They could cause a car to swirve and hit another car' Well, thats true of drunken (And sober..) pedestrians, So unless you want to make everyone have lisences and insurance for walking down the road...

IMO, power limits are retarded, It should be a weight limit. Going slower the city traffic (60kph on a 50kph speed limit road.. cough, cough) invites people to dangeriously pass you at any chance. Only doing 30kph and they will illegaly pass you without a 2nd thought to whats in the oncomming lane, and given oncomming traffic, will opt to crash into you insted of the oncomming traffic, even though its 100% thier fault for illegaly attempting to pass you.

loose nut
09-03-2011, 06:04 PM
So unless you want to make everyone have licenses and insurance for walking down the road...



Don't even thick like that or some A-hole will want to do it.