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jb-mck
09-07-2011, 09:11 PM
I'm looking for bay lights for my shop. They will be about 12 feet off the floor and need to cover 40ft by 40ft area. I was thinking 400 watt mercury halide (4 total). I decided I would post for recommendations since I know nothing on the subject. They need to be able to start in cold (30degree F.) weather.

Any ideas? Thanks

craigd
09-08-2011, 12:09 AM
I recently went through lighting my shop. I went with continuous rows of flourescent fixtures. They are not as hot as some lighting systems, you can put quite a few on one curcuit and with the continuous row, the wiring is very straight forward (just bring one feed in and then run from fixture to fixture). I simply screwed the fixture right to the ceiling.

My area is 31' x 47'. I went with a 2/12 vaulted ceiling (peak at 15').

I was planning to go with 4' fixtures, with a 4' space between. The electrician who helped me with the panel box recommended continuous fixtures - so much easier to wire. The 8' fixtures were only a couple extra bucks, and it really did save on the wiring (of course the bulb cost is double).

Every one I asked advised me to put in lots of lights.

I have only been using this for nearly a year (the shop is a work in progress) and I find it a great lighting system - minimal shadows. The coldest I have used it is about 38F. I have not been bothered by the warm up time on the fixtures (I don't even notice an issue). The temperature is generally 45 to 60F.

I see a post from one other member ("Bill736") who has had problems. All I can say is I really like the arrangement I have. I got the fixtures and bulbs from an electrical supply company - perhaps they were better than from a big box store?

I actually wired it with 3-#14, and alternated the supply from fixture to fixture (so I can turn on every other fixture or all). In all I have 4 rows (set up as 2 pairs) of 5 - '8 fixtures (works out to 80 - 4' tubes) - on 4 switches (T8 bulbs). I can really play with different lighting levels. That is about 2500 watts, with a white ceiling and I plan to paint the walls white too.

Sincerely, David

darryl
09-08-2011, 12:20 AM
I might suggest when installing fluorescent fixtures to space them away from the ceiling by 3/4 inch or so- use some common 1x2 or something as spacers. Gives the metal with the ballast mounted on it some additional space for cooling. You can always add a plate with a wire clamp on it to the junction box if you're worried about code.

steverice
09-08-2011, 01:08 AM
I like to use the 8' floresant fixtures with multiple tubes, only problem is with the television being near the ceiling they tend to reflect in the screen.

JMS6449
09-08-2011, 12:23 PM
Use T-8 4foot alto 850 bulbs with new electronic ballasts. Be sure that the reflectors are polished aluminium.

A 4 or 6 bulb fixture will far out perform the MH fixture. I know from experience.

Duffy
09-08-2011, 06:26 PM
The problem with those four 400 watt fixtures that you propose is they equate to almost 1/2 ton of cooling in hot weather. If you arent airconditioning, ignore my comment.

Paul Alciatore
09-08-2011, 06:42 PM
The problem with those four 400 watt fixtures that you propose is they equate to almost 1/2 ton of cooling in hot weather. If you arent airconditioning, ignore my comment.

Four 400 Watt fixtures will put 1.6 KWatts of heat into the room. Even though some of that energy leaves the fixtures as light, that light will become heat when it is absorbed by the various surfaces in the room. The remainder of the energy will leave the fixture as heat. So the full power consumed in these fixtures will become heat in the room.

In winter this may be desirable: you may actually save on your heating bill. In summer, with or without AC, you don't want it. With AC, the AC will have to remove all that heat. Without AC, you will certainly feel it.

I would recommend the most efficient lighting fixtures for summer and use actual heaters for heating in winter. You can get multiple fluorescent fixtures in many configurations. I have seen up to 10 or 12, 8 foot tubes in one fixture that is mounted on a portable stand. Or you could combine two or more standard fixtures yourself and mount the unit on a roll around stand. Use individual switches for better light control. 50 or 100 Watts of fluorescents will provide the same light as your mercury halides at a fraction of the heat. They will also lower your electric bill; both directly and indirectly with lower cooling costs.

JoeFin
09-08-2011, 06:59 PM
Honestly I don't think you have the height to use 400 MH fixtures. Your welcome to download and run any of the "Free Trial Lighting Software" programs you'll find on the net to see what I mean.

Additionally the others have posted valuable comments concerning the heat generated from MH fixtures and is some thing you'll have to deal with in the summer time.

But the best suggestion by far was the fluorescent fixtures with highly polished reflectors. Not the tiny squares you see in office buildings designed to keep computer screen reflection to a minimum. But the half shell / full length reflectors the nearly double your light output.

Go ahead and download a free trail version and run the fluorescents, with and without reflectors. Then run the MH fixtures too. Set design lumins for 110 @ 42" work height and compare the energy consumed vs: lumin output. Don't forget to include additional cooling load too.

Dawai
09-08-2011, 07:57 PM
Harleys cause fluorescents to fall.. use lamp chain around them in loops.
OR don't crank a harley inside.

I always put a combination of incandescents and fluorescents in. That way while the long ones are a blinkin.. ya can still see.. IN plants with Metal halides, I snuck Halogens in at critical areas.. cause if the power blinks.. they have to cool to relight..
they have a thermistor in them, it lights on ac, then switches to dc..

Nobody complained..

It makes sense to leave a heat gap over the lights.. just in case..

Iraiam
09-08-2011, 08:06 PM
We use 250 watt MH at 14 feet inside a flood fixture, and it's very well lighted. We use 400 watt bulbs at 20 feet plus. They will start in any temp, even inside 36 degree coolers and sub zero freezers. Keep in mind if you turn them off, they won't restart immediately, the bulbs need to cool down before they will start again which takes a few minutes, many of our fixtures also have a small halogen backup in them for power blips.

Metal halide lighting is good bang for the buck,(dollars to lumens), they also have the best color rendition throughout the life of the bulb , which is important where I work. Also long bulb life, and by that I mean several months of 3 shift operation.

Also be aware that these are Hight Intensity, and will likely cause issues with most any auto darkening welding hood, even the high dollar ones (speaking from experience here).

flylo
09-09-2011, 12:23 AM
I have a 40x72 shop 13' ceilings. I used 10 400w MH & love them. They are white natural light. I have them wired where I can turn on 2 or 2 or 3 or 3. They make low bay & high bay, use low bays. You can get them for almost free or free. Also mine are all 4 tap so I wired them with 14/2 wire 230V. I have a 12x54 heated area I put in 4, wired 2 & 2. 1watt of MH is the as 5 incandesent. It was a great choice for me. I can work at night with 2 lights on & it's just like daylight. Too bad your not closed I'd hook you up. I have well over 100. :D

jb-mck
09-09-2011, 08:48 AM
Flylo,

If your serious about the hook up, maybe we could work this out. I travel to Chicago every month or so. I wouldn't mind a short drive to save some jack! How far from Chicago?

vpt
09-09-2011, 09:12 AM
I use the standard 4' florescents.


http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/747/shopstuff023.jpg

gary350
09-09-2011, 09:16 AM
This kind of lights are better suited for taller ceilings like 20 ft ceilings the light does not spread out far and wide.

Fluorescent lights are better suited for low ceiling height and they are low power much lower than 400 watts per light.

Here is a link to a place that has 100s of 8 ft fluroescent light fixtures for $4 each. http://nashville.craigslist.org/for/2565608584.html

bborr01
09-09-2011, 09:43 AM
I bought a bunch of 8' T8 fluorescent fixtures to replace the old style T12 high output fixtures.

I put my kill a watt meter inline and checked power usage. The T8's use about 100-102 watts. The T12 HO's use 277 watts. Quite an energy savings.

The T8's use four 4' bulbs. They put out a little less light than the T12's but I plan to use twice as many of them. The T8's also don't have reflectors.

I am trying to figure out what I can do for reflectors.

Brian

J.Ramsey
09-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Here's my 34x78 playhouse, thirty 8 footers in the work area, 2 in the office and 1 in the bathroom.


http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2142/shopwest.jpg



http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6051/shopeast.jpg

HAP
09-09-2011, 10:22 AM
Sounds to me like you will be right back where you where in terms of energy use...

The T8's use four 4' bulbs. They put out a little less light than the T12's but I plan to use twice as many of them. The T8's also don't have reflectors.

I am trying to figure out what I can do for reflectors.

Bmyers
09-09-2011, 10:37 AM
I just replaced some of my failing T12's with T8 4' fixtures, I swear the light is a different color, more of an orange.

flylo
09-09-2011, 12:57 PM
I'm about 100 miles from Chicago. I have some for free & others I bought for $12.50 up to $30 for the super nice ones. You can have them for just what I payed. I have the free ones in the heated part & like them because they're low profile. It's hard to beat free! Call me 1269fourtwo3eightfive3nine. Thanks! BTW I donated a complete foam unit from a airport fire truck a couple years ago to someone in your state by chance wasn't you was it?

Black_Moons
09-09-2011, 01:09 PM
T8's are far more efficent then T12 and T12 is being phased out where I live.

T5 are more efficent yet, but the initial cost and harder to find bulbs are not worth it yet.

Also, beware 'Free' MH, after about 3~5 months of 12 hour a day use, they lose a lot of thier output (50%?) and become much less efficent then fluorsecent. Hence why they are thrown out (or given away free), they are not really worth using anymore except as a spare bulb if one your using blows (or gets smashed by a carelessly moved 2x4)

You can also buy more expensive, full spectrum fluorsecent.

jugs
09-09-2011, 02:30 PM
I just replaced some of my failing T12's with T8 4' fixtures, I swear the light is a different color, more of an orange.

size has nothing to do with it !! Florescent lamps come in a variety of colors designated by colour temperature K, -

so 2300k = warm, 5000k = cool, 6500k = north-light (blue/white)

flylo
09-09-2011, 02:37 PM
Black Moons that's not true. They used these for years,they work great,put out very white natural looking light. They only reason shops are changing these is because of the tax credit. I like the light these put our much better than fluorsecent. Much more like natural daylight. I do have good natural lighting so I don't run the lights 12 hrs a day & when I do use them a night I use only the ones I need. Your right about when the bulbs get old they get a pink tint but it takes much longer than you stated. Also the t8s & t12 also degrade with time.:(

jugs
09-09-2011, 05:55 PM
Just so everyones singing the same song -



From
Light Bulbs at a Glance






By: Jonathan Z. Kremer







Incandescent
Life span:700-1000 hoursPros:cheap; gives a pleasant warm light that most people like,Cons:least efficient of all the bulbs
Efficiency:7 - 24 lumens per wattUses:General lightingNotes:can heat up, therefore care must be taken near flammable material, short life span.

Halogen
Life span:2,000 - 4,000 hoursPros:more efficient than incandescent bulbs; bright light Cons:burns very hot; more expensive than incandescent
Efficiency:12 - 36 lumens per wattUses:220v tubes - General lighting, floodlights
12V - accent lighting, task lighting
Notes:must be careful using these bulbs near flammable materials or in closed places.

Fluorescent (tubular)
Life span:10,000 - 20,000 hoursPros:bulb burns cooler; very efficient; can come in various CRI ratings; comes in different color temperaturesCons:not dimmable; fixtures are more costly; known to flicker at times.
Efficiency:33 - 100 lumens per wattUses:General, floodlightsNotes:frequent switching on and off reduces efficiency.


Compact Fluorescent
Life span:Up to 10,000 hours Pros:efficient Cons:cost of bulb; sometimes they can't physically fit; to replace incandescent bulbs
Efficiency:44 - 80 lumens per watt Uses:General lighting Notes:frequent switching on and off reduces efficiency.


Metal Halide
Life span:6,000 - 10,000 hours Pros:extremely efficient; give a brilliant light; bulbs come in different color temperatures; good color rendering. Cons:cost of both fixture and bulb; burns hot
Efficiency:60 - 125 lumens per watt Uses:places where a lot of light is needed such as outdoor areas and retail shops. Used frequently in sports arenas, stadiums, auditoriums, and convention halls Notes:not to be used near flammable materials. Bulbs usually must burn in a certain position.

LED
Life span:30,000 - 80,000 hours (100,000 hours) Pros:High durability - no filament or tube to break; long life span; low power consumption; low heat generation Cons:High cost of bulb (in the meantime)
Efficiency:30 - 60 lumens per watt (200 lumens per watt) Uses:wide variety of uses including general lighting, accent lighting, and decorative lighting Notes:LED technology is relatively new, and is changing every day. The quality and efficiency of the bulbs are improving all the time.

The ratings in parentheses (above) are the predicted improvements which are expected to come about within the next few years.




Mercury Vapor
Life span:1600 - 6000 hours Pros:more efficient than incandescent and halogen; gives a nice color to landscapes. Cons:lowest efficiency of the HID type bulbs; dims rapidly; bad color rendering
Efficiency:20 - 63 lumens per watt Uses:landscape illumination, outdoor lighting Notes:produce a blue-green light



High Pressure Sodium -SON
Life span:18,000 - 24,000 hours Pros:extremely efficient, long lasting, Cons:bad color rendering, produces yellowish light; slowly lose their brightness with time
Efficiency: 60 - 140 lumens per watt Uses:very popular for indoor horticulture, outdoor and industrial applications Notes:


Low Pressure Sodium -SOX
Life span:approximately 16,000 hours Pros:one of the most efficient bulbs there is, long life span. Cons:worst color rendering (monochromatic) of all the bulbs, initial setup can be costly
Efficiency: 90 - 180 lumens per watt Uses:security lighting or indoor applications like stairwells Notes:monochromatic - all colors under this light appear black, white, or shades of gray.

aboard_epsilon
09-09-2011, 06:26 PM
think they got the halogen lifespan wrong there ..


some only last two weeks ..best ones last a few months

all the best.markj

Black_Moons
09-09-2011, 06:41 PM
Black Moons that's not true. They used these for years,they work great,put out very white natural looking light. They only reason shops are changing these is because of the tax credit. I like the light these put our much better than fluorsecent. Much more like natural daylight. I do have good natural lighting so I don't run the lights 12 hrs a day & when I do use them a night I use only the ones I need. Your right about when the bulbs get old they get a pink tint but it takes much longer than you stated. Also the t8s & t12 also degrade with time.:(

Did'nt know T8/T12 degraded much till they just.. died.

Did find some intresting page doing proper compairson:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/7/aafeature1
"Another point to note was that the drop in output over almost 17 months of use was around 21%, lower than I would have expected"
I thought the drop would be much higher, I seem to recall reading more like 50% drop after 12 months usage, with replacement recommended every 4~6 months for optimial power verus bulb costs.