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aboard_epsilon
09-20-2011, 02:09 PM
never done it before

unfortunately had a bit of a smash in my car the other day sourced the new panels from a car breaker yard ..but they are black

bonnet (hood) wings (fenders) and bumper to do.

I don't even know what type it is

is it ..flake..Pearlescent ..water based or what ..ive no idea car is a 96

do you flat it before the lacquer..or not

on a black rubbed down surface its going on, does it require a certain colour of primer.

the colour is a very weird blue (kingfisher blue)that looks a differrent colour depending how much light there is falling on it ..it isnt one of these colours that are two tone..it just looks torquise all over in low light ..and just blue in lots of light.

i have a hvlp spray gun and plenty of cfm of air...what nozzle/ tip do i use .

any help and tips appreciated

i am proficient at spraying paint ..its just that i don't know anything about metallics at all...zero

i don't know what price the paint is ..but have a max limit of 100 ..anything more than that and it aint getting done ..

the car paint suppliers in the uk ..are ridiculously expensive ..last time i checked they wanted 45 for just 1 litre of 2k

and does temperature matter very much ...well with the fan going in the wall ..i dont have any choice really ..so will be sprayed in temps of around 12- 15 degrees c

all the best.markj

Alistair Hosie
09-20-2011, 03:02 PM
Mark they tell me black is one of the easiest colours to spray and get a match. I have had black cars for the last five cars I have owned.Have fun and good luck. Alistair

Paul Alciatore
09-20-2011, 03:16 PM
Allister, I believe he means the replacement panels he has purchased are black but he needs to paint them with a metallic color, a "very weird blue (kingfisher blue)".

mike os
09-20-2011, 03:32 PM
go see your paint supplier... with car or panel and colour code, they will hopefully advise on undercoat, colour & type and topcoat.

aboard_epsilon
09-20-2011, 03:42 PM
This is the colour

this is a bit i cut out of it for the lpg conversion

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/rover%20420/swatch.jpg

in less light it turns to a sort of makita blue/green

all the best.markj

mike os
09-20-2011, 04:29 PM
looks like a colour shift metalic.

strokersix
09-20-2011, 05:31 PM
Based on my very limited experience you want to spray the first coat(s) wetter than the last coat. Last coat spray light so the metallics go on even and don't sag. But I am far from an expert.

JoeLee
09-20-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm sure it's a base coat / clear coat system so you don't want to put your base coats (color) on too wet or heavy. Base coats should look dry and dull, but smoothe and even. Don't try to get your base coat to shine. Two coats of clear are OK. As far as the primer goes I would go with what the manufacturer uses to ensure a decent match. Remember don't panel paint...... blend.
Paint isn't cheap in the US either.

JL.............

CCWKen
09-20-2011, 09:12 PM
A 96 what? Make and Model please.
Some of those colors are THREE stage. It may or may not be a water based paint. Your paint supplier will need the VIN number or the color code to match it, if the color is original. He can also check the type of paint in the listing. Can't tell you where the build tag is until we know what make but it may be on the trailing edge (latch side) of the driver's door. (In USA, not sure about Europe) The build tag will have the color code on it.

The primer color can vary but in most cases, light grey should give you the color hold-out you need. Metallics are hard to match on adjacent panels. You may have to blend it. Mix the paint well and keep "sloshing" the paint in the gun about every 30 seconds during your shoot. The metallics will settle quickly. This is a MUST to get an even color that will come close to matching.

As far as cost, you might be cutting the budget pretty close by the time you add primer, paint, reducer/base, clear and activator. Stick with one paint system--Don't mix brands. I could shoot all your parts with one quart of paint where someone else might need a gallon. HVLP is the only way to go.

Just remember that the job is 90% prep and 10% paint.

RussZHC
09-20-2011, 09:22 PM
Metallics are hard to match on adjacent panels

and
Don't mix brands.

+1 on all input so far esp the above quotes...you may be "locked" into whomever the original paint manufacturer was...as stated above, not all metallics are the same from maker to maker...as example in North America, PPG compared to DuPont could get you that slightly different metallic sheen that just isn't the same...let alone if it was not original paint.

Oh, your first issue is going to be it being '96, the chip you have from years ago is not going to be the same as the paint is now or the same as it is in a completely hidden area (which is what the paint code will match), so which do you "match" to? "Match" being a bit of a misnomer...quite close even with blending maybe what you have to settle for [in my experience, some golds, bronzes and silvers are worst...you get into situations where close up it's OK but 20, 30, 40 feet back it's a horrible "match"...yours could be tough getting the balance between blue and green w metallic]

batt-man
09-21-2011, 02:45 AM
I've done some metallics in the past and i use a 2.0 tip; you can get by with a 1.8 in a pinch but it will most probably clog a lot.

As mentioned before keep sloshing the paint around in the gun to stop the flakes from settling; i throw a couple of 1/2 inch steel ball bearings in to help.

you need to build the layers up because the flake will want to make the paint run/sag. A couple of very light coats to get some tack going and then a heavier coat to really get the flake down.

Also make sure you get a good clear; trying to bury the flake in a cheap/ thin clearcote is a nightmare; don't ask how i know this one!!!

Cheers
Batt

Black Forest
09-21-2011, 03:13 AM
Paint the rest of the car black!

boslab
09-21-2011, 05:46 AM
Last time i sprayed kingfisher blue was on a talbot alpine, long time ago!
fill and rub down as normal, 180/360/600, prime rpf 500 or 600, denib, guide coat, flat down to no more than 600 [peeling!] spray basecoat, single coat, 20 mins flash off double coat wet on wet as it were, recomended drying is about 35 mins, clear top coat, coat 1, 25 mins, double coat wet on wet, piss off down pub with lights off cos itl be late and moths like to suicide in clear laquer, plus youll be fairly high by then anyway!, its still a nice colour.
i used to get my paint from livermores in swansea, they are too far away from you but they are handy for advice on the phone!, i used A&W 2 pack last time but acrylic would be the in thing now, get the datasheet when you buy the paint, they are very good!, dont overthin on the topcoat!, and buy thier thinners, not gun wash! [i know its cheap!]
theres some tidy primer guns [gravity] in lidl at the moment!
its not a metal flake so any fluid tip will suffice, keep pressure lowish on the base coat and let it 'fall' onto the panel if theres a big cloud then your a bit too hot as it were.
you dont rub basecoat down btw!
mark

MrSleepy
09-21-2011, 06:15 AM
Your also going to need a beefy compressor..

I sprayed some wheels and other bits for my lads car... and my SIP 14cfm twin pot 50 litre compressor only just kept up when spraying at the recommended 90 psi..

Rob

vpt
09-21-2011, 08:31 AM
I just got done (finally) with spraying one of my buddies fenders for his 2010 mitsu with only 680 miles on it! I had to spray the fender a total of 3 different times because they couldn't get the color to match.

The color code was a UB2-B a phantom black concoction. The paint store thought it was the base (primer color) that was throwing the color off so they sent over a few test cards. The cards are white on one end and then in steps goes to black on the other end to see how the base color effects the base coat paint color. I sprayed the cards and sent them back to the paint store. You could not tell at all what side was the white side and what side was the black side of the card.

With new panels that are painted black they need to be scuffed and primed before you can lay base and clear. I know they say the black is a primer but if you don't scuff and cover it your paint can peal.

You don't need a heavy thick coat of primer for the base, just a nice light cover just to get a good base for the color to grab onto.

After you spray the primer go over the panel again with 400grit to get any high spots or dirt out.

Wipe down the panel with dry cloth, I like to moisten a clean cotton cloth with paint thinner (the stuff you will be using to thin the base color) and fast wipe down the panel again in even wipes from one end of the panel to the other without stopping. Fold the cloth and repeat. Stopping or starting wiping in the middle of the panel will leave dirst/dust behind on the panel.

After all wiped down mix up and shoot the base color. With metallic you have to lay enough paint for it to be wet so the metal flake can lay down. If you spray with the gun to far away or to light of coats the metal flake will stand on end and the color will look funny. I normally do just 2 coats of base, one to get the coverage, the jambs, and any nooks or cranys. The second coat I pay most attention to the visible panel itself and make sure I am getting a nice even wet coat on the entire thing. Lots and lots of good lighting will help you see the wet and dry spots!

After about 15-20 minutes (about enough time to clean the gun and cups) the base coat will flash over and you are ready to shoot the clear!

The clear is the hardest thing to spray because you can see when its to dry but not when its to wet till it drips. With clear I also like to lay 2 coats so long as I am satisfied with the second coat. The first coat is like the base, just to cover the panel and get all the corners and jambs and stuff. After it starts to set up (about 10 minutes) I will shoot the second coat. The second coat I spray heavy, again lots of lighting will help you see the dry spots and wet spots. Make sure there is good coverage! Every inch of the panel should have a glass look to it by the time you are done shooting the clear. If you see anything that looks like orange peal while you are spraying it is to dry and needs more clear. Once the clear starts to flash over you are done until you spray the whole panel again, so try to get all the dry spots wet before the clear flashes on the second coat.

Let sit over night and you should be able to lightly handle the panel and bolt it on the car. I like to try and get the panel on and bolted down the second day because the clear is still soft and will squish around the bolts instead of crack.

Have fun!

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/605/doorpaint003pr9.jpg

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8588/doorpaint005ir0.jpg

aboard_epsilon
09-21-2011, 08:40 AM
miss post sory

all the best.see below

aboard_epsilon
09-21-2011, 08:46 AM
i phoned them up

comes out like this

47.84 for 1ltr base coat ..this is single pack
11.00 for 1ltr base coat thinners
15.00 for 1ltr of grey primer inc activator
16.95 for universal activator for the lacquer

all prices include vat at 20 percent

have a few gallons of lacquer already.

probably need panel wipe on top of that.

i have all the abrasives

Will need 3m carbon activated Isocyanate mask ...can anyone give me a part number on this ..they are disposable ..but come in a re-sealable bag ..you have a month to use them.

They say its 3m -06941 but after looking up I'm unsure.

YES , i know ideally you should have an air fed mask

all the best.markj

batt-man
09-21-2011, 08:51 AM
What you want is one of these...

http://www.refinishsystems.com/product/364-120/3MMaintenanceFreeMask06941

Cheers
Batt

vpt
09-21-2011, 08:53 AM
I reread your OP a little better, seems like you are getting the panels used from a salvage yard? So the panels are already base clear black right?

If that is the case you can skip the primer stage and just scuff the clear on the panels, wipe them down good with the base thinner, then spray.

batt-man
09-21-2011, 08:53 AM
Forgot to mention - don't believe what they say about "it's good for a month if you keep it in a sealed bag".

2 weeks is the most i'd keep one for once "it's been opened"

aboard_epsilon
09-21-2011, 09:00 AM
thanks for all the advice .seem to be getting contradictions though

some say the base coat should be wet ..some saying dry ..

my paint supplier says mist coats of base coat..dry

all good advice though

all the best.markj

aboard_epsilon
09-21-2011, 09:02 AM
I reread your OP a little better, seems like you are getting the panels used from a salvage yard? So the panels are already base clear black right?

If that is the case you can skip the primer stage and just scuff the clear on the panels, wipe them down good with the base thinner, then spray.

the panels are metallic black ..clear over base

all the best.markj

vpt
09-21-2011, 09:14 AM
thanks for all the advice .seem to be getting contradictions though

some say the base coat should be wet ..some saying dry ..

my paint supplier says mist coats of base coat..dry

all good advice though

all the best.markj



Spray some test panels first, about the size of a gas door. Do the whole deal, base and clear. Try out different methods to see what results you get.

I know when I spray metallic dry it looks funny, when I spray it wet it always comes out uniform and a match to the factory metallic.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5003/cats017zy2.jpg

A.K. Boomer
09-21-2011, 09:20 AM
Wow nice work VPT,

I don't have much advice because I hate painting - I do it when I have to and the parts/paint shop I go to know's im a mechanic and that all I want to do is the minimum so they mix "hillbilly single stage" every time, they used to say "you know this is supposed to be shot in two stage and we really can't mix single" but now they do it just for me cuz im a painting idiot that has zero patience for it... I hate it - I don't know how bodymen do it without killing themselves or the customers when they show up to complain. I think it would be the most thankless job on the planet, I would much rather collect peoples garbage.
Hat's off to those guys who put out all that effort to make things right - they can make things absolutely perfect and many time's it's just what's expected so there is not even a thanks, then the owner goes right out and stuffs it again because they were talking on their celly...:rolleyes:

The only piece of advice iv heard that no-one else has seemed to mentioned (and for all I know is complete bull****) is that if your going to paint allot of metalics you need to ground the car's body or the flakes could do funny things like collect around the edges in strange patterns or stand on edge or something??? don't know - just saying.

vpt
09-21-2011, 09:32 AM
I can't stand the sanding and body prep work to painting. I love actually painting stuff because its neat to see the project getting covered and how it will look. But the sanding.... I hate sanding! When my buddy brought back that fender the third time and said the paint still doesn't match I could have kicked him right in the junk. The final time we had the paint guy come over to my shop and I had to pretty much tell him what color needed to be added and what flake needed to be taken out. He did mention he couldn't believe the finishes I was turning out in just a shop with no booth.

A.K. Boomer
09-21-2011, 09:51 AM
I had fixed up a car for an old girlfriend - it had a massive rear quarter crunch.

I guess I had patients back then because if I do have to say so myself the body work I did and the paint job (single stage) could have passed inspection in most body shops for sure - it was really hard to find a flaw and the paint matched and was almost totally dust free with no orange peel or anything, The body work was impressive - the quarter looked original and I buy and sell cars for a part time gig and if I didn't know it I would have looked right past it...

I was very proud of that rear quarter...

then one day Im filling the car up with gas and leaning my fat little ass against the rear quarter as im doing it and "wallump" the entire rear quarter sinks in about 1 1/2" with that sickening massive oil can sound and I step back and look and the car looks like it was just hit by a truck --------- My GF goes "oh my god what did you do" I go into the trunk and "presto" it's out and you can't tell a thing :rolleyes: then it started to happen easier and easier and it was no big whoop - just a - "honey - you need to pop out the toyota again"
and me saying - "you leaned on the car again didn't you"... so many things that can get you with body work/painting, I thought about bondo-ing the inside of the trunk quarter... no worries anymore - I sold the car and a girl stuffed the front end...

aboard_epsilon
09-21-2011, 10:08 AM
I had fixed up a car for an old girlfriend - it had a massive rear quarter crunch.

I guess I had patients back then because if I do have to say so myself the body work I did and the paint job (single stage) could have passed inspection in most body shops for sure - it was really hard to find a flaw and the paint matched and was almost totally dust free with no orange peel or anything, The body work was impressive - the quarter looked original and I buy and sell cars for a part time gig and if I didn't know it I would have looked right past it...

I was very proud of that rear quarter...

then one day Im filling the car up with gas and leaning my fat little ass against the rear quarter as im doing it and "wallump" the entire rear quarter sinks in about 1 1/2" with that sickening massive oil can sound and I step back and look and the car looks like it was just hit by a truck --------- My GF goes "oh my god what did you do" I go into the trunk and "presto" it's out and you can't tell a thing :rolleyes: then it started to happen easier and easier and it was no big whoop - just a - "honey - you need to pop out the toyota again"
and me saying - "you leaned on the car again didn't you"... so many things that can get you with body work/painting, I thought about bondo-ing the inside of the trunk quarter... no worries anymore - I sold the car and a girl stuffed the front end...
#
i know what i would have done with that ..i would have put one of those sound deadening bitumastic pads on the back of it ..

all the best.markj

CCWKen
09-21-2011, 01:21 PM
The only piece of advice iv heard that no-one else has seemed to mentioned (and for all I know is complete bull****) is that if your going to paint allot of metalics you need to ground the car's body or the flakes could do funny things like collect around the edges in strange patterns or stand on edge or something??? don't know - just saying.
Never heard of that but I do ground cars and parts to keep from getting electrocuted--Zapped! It keeps static electricity from building up and repelling the paint. It only happens when it's dry (low humidity). I do the same when sandblasting. That can really give you a bite! :eek:

Black_Moons
09-21-2011, 01:26 PM
heh, Iv heard of people puting speakers down on there car body for awhile, then doing a metalic paint job.. to find out that the speaker magnatized part of the body and now all the flakes stand on end in a speaker magnet pattren.

Might be a really cool effect to do on purpose someday.

CCWKen
09-21-2011, 01:41 PM
Mica, pearl and aluminum is attracted to a magnet? :rolleyes:

boslab
09-21-2011, 01:59 PM
heh, Iv heard of people puting speakers down on there car body for awhile, then doing a metalic paint job.. to find out that the speaker magnatized part of the body and now all the flakes stand on end in a speaker magnet pattren.

Might be a really cool effect to do on purpose someday.
the early trick paints included a flake that was a bugger to get down because of static, you had to put an earth line on the gun, watched it never tried it, too difficult for me, including sieving flake onto laquers and other wierd effects, immagine trying to match that!, 2 sprayers usually get 2 different effects with any metallic basecoat.
when i say 'wet' what i'm talking about is the double coat, they call it a 'wet' coat because you hit the second before the first is completely flashed off [it is in fact reasonably dry!]
regards
mark

RussZHC
09-21-2011, 07:44 PM
Never done the real big flake either but in the past it was getting to the point where there were real problems as stated in trying to keep it flat as it was large enough that if some areas stood on end (dry or end of pass or edge of panel) the color changed tone slightly, you had to put way too many coats of clear over top (this was before the base/clear systems) and you could actually sand into the edges of the flake in efforts to keep the overall thickness at some reasonable number.

Glad someone noted the replacement panels are already painted (when I reads it originally I thought you were talking about the flat black primer some new panels come with from suppliers)...I'd put a grey primer first, if you just scuff the black paint, I suspect the blue will be a bit dark.

Paul Alciatore
09-21-2011, 10:19 PM
heh, Iv heard of people puting speakers down on there car body for awhile, then doing a metalic paint job.. to find out that the speaker magnatized part of the body and now all the flakes stand on end in a speaker magnet pattren.

Might be a really cool effect to do on purpose someday.

A de-gausing coil would cure that. Available at TV parts places. Use before painting.

mike os
09-22-2011, 02:29 AM
A de-gausing coil would cure that. Available at TV parts places. Use before painting.

it would remove any static present, but the spray process can also generate static.... which is the problem.

most metalic/pearl paints are not a problem for flake height, it tends to be the really "big" flakes in metal flake that causes real problems,but as noted you do need to do the top layer in one direction.

aboard_epsilon
10-03-2011, 06:49 PM
if the panels being wings /fenders are off the vehicle ..is it preferred that you hang them vertically when spraying ...i know it would be easier if they were laid flat

but, im not sure with this metallic paint about the orientation of the flecks..would it be right ..if sprayed horizontal and put back the vehicle side by side with doors that have been sprayed in the vertical position.

I'm talking just the colour coat here ..not the laqure or primer

all the best.markj

boslab
10-03-2011, 07:17 PM
i did a silver fiesta door on sunday, outside!, came out great, production sprayed pannels are very consistent so its not much of a problem, after priming and flatting [use a guide coat, black airosol, very light dust from 2 foot, then rub all the guide coat off, only flecks of colour reqired, it makes sure you didnt miss any bits!] start spraying the door from the bottom working to the top if the panel is horizontal, i think it matches better but its only a theory as i very rarely do it off the car, i tend to fit the door, gap it, get the lines right then spray.
personally i dont find much of an advantage bench spraying in the horizontal unless your going to use a heavier coat of laquer in a spray booth.
vertical is cleaner, crap falls out of the sky, including suicidal moths.
I always manage to scratch the thing during fitting!
i would advise a few practice panels, any old sheet will do.
practice holding the gun perpendicular to the surface, keeping the same distance and triggering the gun at the end of the stroke, just release the trigger a bit to stop the paint but not the atomising air, if right handed, hold a loop of hose in your left hand, kinked, it gives you a bit of control over your air without fiddling about with the gun/needle/fluid knobs on the spraygun so you can throttle the gun to prevent overbuilding like on the glass frame and edges of the door otherwise you deposit too much paint an have to watch a beautiful surface run!, thats annoying
regards
mark
ps i forgot to mention, its fun!, its brilliant to watch a properly preped surface being transformed, and its addictive, everything gets painted!

A.K. Boomer
10-03-2011, 08:33 PM
ps i forgot to mention, its fun!, its brilliant to watch a properly preped surface being transformed, and its addictive, everything gets painted!



Iv never once felt that --- if everything goes perfect the best iv felt is a relief of stress -
kinda like OMG it's dry and hasn't ran and not one fly has landed in it and tried to drag his toxic doomed body two feet through it before giving up and selling off the farm - also the wind had not kicked up under the garage door and sent a plume of "oil dry" into the air, and the best thing is the primer and paint and old paint and everything seems to be compatible this time and hasn't turned into "hoover crinkle paint"

thank you god -- I know I curse you all the time but thank you for letting me dodge all the bullets,

then of course there's the test of time - I don't know if it's the bondo or what but something always seems to attract other cars to the area - sometimes at a great deal of speed...

vpt
10-03-2011, 09:03 PM
Yup! LMAO!

aboard_epsilon
10-03-2011, 09:03 PM
Yup. i can paint ..but never painted metallic or a car before

Here's fritz ..very hard to paint lots of different facing surfaces ..no runs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/fritz/P1010054.jpg

it's so expensive I'm afraid of making mistakes ..if it was just ordinary paint ..i would not be worried.


I've even sprayed gel coat successfully

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/Hwideshot.jpg

Here's rattle can results for metallic ..It's a j.a.p outboard engine ...but not Japanese.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/buckfastouboard1.jpg

you know what ..what ever ive done ..ive never practiced anything ..the practice ..because of the expense ..has been the real job .

all the best.markj

claudev
10-03-2011, 11:36 PM
I offer you some advice and a warning which no one has offered thus far.

I am not sure about the UK but here is the U.S. it is unlikely that the paint would be a lacquer. Most likely it will be a urethane or other exotic base material and will likely be highly toxic if you breathe the fumes or even allow it to contact your skin. Be sure and discuss this with your supplier before you start. I strongly suggest that you "bite the bullet" and hire a professional to do the actual painting as everything from technique to the application equipment will affect both the color and the texture as well as the appearance and arrangement of the metallic particles. Remember, you are not painting a machine tool. You are painting a car and you want it to look original - not as if it were painted in the moonlight with a worn out brush.

In the "good old days" I painted a number of vehicles with good results but I would not attempt to paint with a modern automotive finish.

boslab
10-03-2011, 11:51 PM
Aboard epsilon, your a cracking sprayer, certainly better than most i see. try
http://www.paints4u.com/productsByCat.aspx?MainCategoryID=6&SubCategoryID=78
good selection of bits n bobs
regards
mark

aboard_epsilon
10-04-2011, 05:37 AM
I offer you some advice and a warning which no one has offered thus far.

I am not sure about the UK but here is the U.S. it is unlikely that the paint would be a lacquer. Most likely it will be a urethane or other exotic base material and will likely be highly toxic if you breathe the fumes or even allow it to contact your skin. Be sure and discuss this with your supplier before you start. I strongly suggest that you "bite the bullet" and hire a professional to do the actual painting as everything from technique to the application equipment will affect both the color and the texture as well as the appearance and arrangement of the metallic particles. Remember, you are not painting a machine tool. You are painting a car and you want it to look original - not as if it were painted in the moonlight with a worn out brush.

In the "good old days" I painted a number of vehicles with good results but I would not attempt to paint with a modern automotive finish.

I'm forced to do it ...the cars worth about 500..a pro would charge 1500 to do the job . no contest..

happens next time .the car will be painted black or scrapped...sod it.

ALL THE BEST.MARKJ

aboard_epsilon
10-04-2011, 06:09 AM
Aboard epsilon, your a cracking sprayer, certainly better than most i see. try
http://www.paints4u.com/productsByCat.aspx?MainCategoryID=6&SubCategoryID=78
good selection of bits n bobs
regards
mark

4:51AM ..Don't you ever go to bed

The link is cheaper for standard thinners only ..then you got postage.

The price of paint is a joke everywhere me thinks.

Anyone heard the story about Mercedes putting on water based, base coat to bare metal on all there cars in a certain year ..now there are a lot of rusty mercs about .

all the best.markj