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View Full Version : Taper turning on a turret lathe



kel-kat
09-25-2011, 09:41 PM
I have a Weiler turret lathe. I know next to nothing about turret lathes. I have to turn a slight taper on a piece about 6" long. Is there a tool or cutter designed for the turret that can make this happen? Any help very gratefully accepted.

Scott

Toolguy
09-25-2011, 10:20 PM
You could set the compound to the desired angle and cut it that way or turn it on centers with an boring head offset and mounted in the turret.

tdmidget
09-25-2011, 10:32 PM
You could set the compound to the desired angle and cut it that way or turn it on centers with an boring head offset and mounted in the turret.

Could you 'splain that a bit more? Hows he going to cut with the work between centers if one of the centers is in the turret? And a turret lathe with a compound?

Toolguy
09-25-2011, 10:43 PM
I guess most turret lathes don't have a compound, the last one I had did have one. As I recall, most of them have a saddle and cross slide for turning, facing and parting off. You would turn the taper with a tool in the toolpost just like on an engine lathe, using the turret as a tailstock.

Doc Nickel
09-25-2011, 10:55 PM
Some turret lathes have a conventional engine lathe saddle with a compound, some even with threading. Most of the smaller turret lathes, though, have a fixed cross-slide in place of the carriage, that don't do anything but slide straight fore-and-aft.

I've seen some taper attachments for turrets, most notably in the book Turret Lathe Operator's Manual, which focuses mainly on older Warner-Swasey lathes, but said attachments were virtually always more or less similar to a conventional engine lathe's taper attachment.

I can envision a couple of ways a guy could make an attachment for a good-sized turret, but I'm not aware of any factory-made pieces. You'd need a relatively large turret anyway, to get the 6"+ of tool travel needed to make a 6" part.

You might have to locate a conventional lathe with a taper attachment, or at least a large compound.

Doc.

kel-kat
09-25-2011, 11:06 PM
The lathe doesn't have a regular cross slide and compound, just the fore and aft cut off (and facing ...) setup. The turret does have sufficient travel. I was hoping for some type of box tool ish thing that cut the slight taper. I have a little 6" bench lathe I can cut it on with an offset tool in the tailstock but was hoping for the above. Which I figured probably didn't exist but I thought I should look into it.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

thanks,
Scott

Mark McGrath
09-26-2011, 01:50 AM
Well,there are box toolish type taper turning attachments for turret lathes but they are scarce and not best for one offs.
There are also conventional tt slides.
If it had a saddle,it could be done between centres using a recessing slide in the turret to hold the centre off centre.
Without a saddle he`s really stuffed.

Ian B
09-26-2011, 03:15 AM
Taper turning is something that a turret lathe does not excel at.

Question - in addition to the turret, does the lathe also have a separate cutoff slide, normally found between the headstock and the turret? If it does, remount this to the right of the turret and make a temporary centre, held in the cutoff slide's toolpost.

Fit a centre to the headstock, offset the centre in the cutofff slide, and machine the taper between centres.

Ian

jugs
09-26-2011, 04:02 AM
I have a Weiler turret lathe. I know next to nothing about turret lathes. I have to turn a slight taper on a piece about 6" long. Is there a tool or cutter designed for the turret that can make this happen? Any help very gratefully accepted.

Scott

Yes, normaly it's done with a sliding tracer tool controled by a flat cam - But they are like rocking horse$hit :( you'll have to make one :)

Download THIS PDF (http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/z_reading/1915-ToolsChucks%26Fixtures/1915-Tools-chucks-and-fixtures-Dowd.pdf) & see fig 8 on Pg 185. For emergency (1 off's) simple versions see figs 11+12 Pg189-190

jugs
09-26-2011, 05:29 AM
Taper turning is something that a turret lathe does not excel at.

Ian

Not true Ian, just take Morse taper sleeves - (2 different angle tapers 1 inside + 1 out, cut simultaneously), made in millions on ..............capstan/turret lathes.

Rustybolt
09-26-2011, 09:07 AM
Your best bet is to turn the taper as a second operation. A six inch cut is a lot of pressure for a form tool on a cross slide even if you did it in sections.
I'm assuming, of course that you don't want to invest in any more tooling than you have to.

Ian B
09-26-2011, 11:59 AM
Jugs,

I'm sure you're right about making Morse taper sleeves! How's it done?

Ian

DR
09-26-2011, 01:16 PM
I have a Weiler turret lathe. I know next to nothing about turret lathes. I have to turn a slight taper on a piece about 6" long. Is there a tool or cutter designed for the turret that can make this happen? Any help very gratefully accepted.

Scott


Hardinge made at least one taper turning slide for manual turret lathes. It fit on your cutoff slide (front or back). The turret is brought forward bumping the taper slide forwrd.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't have 6" travel, more like 3" to 4". Most small turret lathes like the Hardinge and your Weiler aren't used for parts that long is the reason I believe the Hardinge slide has the shorter travel.

Taper slides for the various Hardinge automatics had even less travel, maybe 2" on the auto chucker.

You could make a taper slide easily (actiually easier said than done). In concept it's simple, they're a spring loaded dovetail slide so it retracts automatically as the turret is retracted.

Another option would be using a turret mounted, spring loaded turning tool that worked off a tapered cam on your cutoff slide. These type turret tools are fairly common, used for things like cutting internal o-ring grooves, etc. That can be a problem because most turrets of small machnies aren't rigid enoungh to handle the cutting forces wanting to rotate the turret with a tool sticking that far out of the turret.

Bazz
09-26-2011, 09:53 PM
Can you install a micro lathe on your cross slide and push the small carriage with your turret, you can by the kit for about $ 150 or go with Micro Lathe II basic unit with automatic power feed for about $300:D

Arthur.Marks
09-27-2011, 12:14 AM
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/taper1.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/taper2.jpg

How to Machine Parts on Turret Lathes: A Tooling Guide Book. The Warner & Swasey Company, 1944.

tdmidget
09-27-2011, 12:26 AM
How to Machine Parts on Turret Lathes: A Tooling Guide Book. The Warner & Swasey Company, 1944.

None of those methods are capable of any real precision. The text even says that the last is the best but being fed by a spring, how good could it be? Where in the world would you find this unusual tooling for a machine that hasn't been made for 40 years and forgotten in the age of CNC? Unless you just want to prove a point and spend thousands making tooling that will produce a mediocre result, give it up.

jugs
09-27-2011, 07:19 AM
Jugs,

I'm sure you're right about making Morse taper sleeves! How's it done?

Ian

This is remembering back 40+yrs :eek:

Herbert no 4 + bar feed, turret tool cooling thro turret & hollow tools.

Turret pos 1, length stop

Turret pos 2, center

Turret pos 3, pilot drill + peel using roller-box on knee bar

Turret pos 4, main drill + plunge cut to tang on cross slide, then engage front taper attach on cross slide.

Turret pos 5, rough taper ream + rough turn OD taper

Turret pos 6, finish taper ream + 2nd cut turn OD taper

Part off

send to milling for - Gang mill tang & Mill ejector slot.


Second opp turning - mount on male arbor,

Turret pos 1, finish end & drill center hole

Turret pos 2, air-spring loaded running center & finish OD taper with knee mounted flat cam tracer box.

Eject (the arbor had an ejector pin operated thro the headstock spindle)

off for hardening & grinding.

Only did it for a few mths :( but it felt like years :D

Anazing, I can remember all that detail but cant remember what I was doing last week !!!! :mad:

J Tiers
09-27-2011, 08:41 AM
How to Machine Parts on Turret Lathes: A Tooling Guide Book. The Warner & Swasey Company, 1944.

None of those methods are capable of any real precision. The text even says that the last is the best but being fed by a spring, how good could it be? ..........Unless you just want to prove a point and spend thousands making tooling that will produce a mediocre result, give it up.

Why would you say that?

1) The process would likely be used prior to grinding. That was not uncommon for manual machines either. How many MT adapter sleeves and MT to Jacobs taper arbors do you see that are only finish turned? (I mean ones that didn't come from India with heavy 1.5mm roughing grooves on every surface)

2) Why would you say it is just spring fed? at least one of the methods shown in the other link is essentially a full guidance setup the same as a taper turning attachment, but for a turret lathe. Even here, the angle is set by a solid cam or ramp, and the spring part is the return. If you want to call that spring fed, I guess you can, but....

3) it seems that most turret lathe work is medium precision anyhow.... feeding grinders, or general pins, screws, studs etc that have no requirement for super tolerances. Why would you suddenly demand grinding tolerances from a turret lathe now?

Arthur.Marks
09-27-2011, 10:39 AM
This is remembering back 40+yrs :eek: Herbert no 4 + bar feed...
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/herbert1.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/herbert2.jpg

Turret Lathe Work, 5th Ed. Alfred Herbert Ltd., Coventry. publication date not listed. "Price 12/6"

jugs
09-27-2011, 02:26 PM
Well done Arthur, that's the beast. :D

Does that book show the tracer attachment ???:confused:

Edit, the Herbert has power feeds on the cross slide, but you can use always use the turret feed to push the cross slide on an un-powered machine. :D

Arthur.Marks
09-27-2011, 03:21 PM
One of these?
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/herbert4.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/herbert3.jpg


that's the beast. :D
Yes, sir! A beast indeed.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/herbert5.jpg

jugs
09-27-2011, 05:27 PM
Fig 29 pg25 shows the turret mounted taper unit used on the 2nd opp lathe I referred to in post 17 it used a flat cam made from 3/4 x 2" ish bright flat (for long runs gauge plate hardened & ground), The tracer unit was similar but more versatile.

I hated the monotony of production even tho setting was fun, so went in the tool-room - loved it never rgreted the move. Shame I was on low pay for 7yrs though :( .

I have (& still use occasionally ) a Herbert 4 & a Herbert 2D :cool:

Note to self, must try & find a copy of one of those books :D

Arthur.Marks
09-27-2011, 10:29 PM
Jugs, I got the book from a gentleman in Indiana, USA that ran a Warner & Swasey out of his garage as his primary business for many years. He is now retired, but he used the Herbert literature for set-up and tooling ideas as they are similar in construction to his W&S machine. I run a smaller turrett lathe (i.e 8x19") on occasion. I can understand the monotony, but the pile of parts it produces is very rewarding. Usually I am doing one-offs; the going is slow in comparison. Is the "tracer unit" something not in my posted literature? I am picturing a copy attachment that actuates the box tool on the turret as it is advanced. Or did it actuate the cross slide?

jugs
09-28-2011, 03:28 AM
Jugs, I got the book from a gentleman in Indiana, USA that ran a Warner & Swasey out of his garage as his primary business for many years. He is now retired, but he used the Herbert literature for set-up and tooling ideas as they are similar in construction to his W&S machine. I run a smaller turrett lathe (i.e 8x19") on occasion. I can understand the monotony, but the pile of parts it produces is very rewarding. Usually I am doing one-offs; the going is slow in comparison. Is the "tracer unit" something not in my posted literature? I am picturing a copy attachment that actuates the box tool on the turret as it is advanced. Or did it actuate the cross slide?

Hi Arthur,

the "tracer unit" I'm remembering was exactly that -

I am picturing a copy attachment that actuates the box tool on the turret as it is advanced.

the flat bar 'cam' fitted in a slot on top, as the turret advanced the end of the 'cam' hit a stop clamped on the knee-bar, the single point tool then followed the shape, there was micrometer adjustment for X & Y.

There was also a hydraulic copy attachment that could be fitted to the cross slide in place of the rear tool-post (I have one, currently fitted to my Cardiff center lathe ), I think they were introduced in the 1970s. When fitted there is so much clutter it makes turret operation very difficult :mad: but it is accurate to 0.001", it can do contoured facing or shaft turning, the model can be sheet metal or a turned component held between centers, clever kit but it came to late to save Herbert's.