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John Stevenson
09-28-2011, 08:02 PM
Sorting out some stillages of parts from the Myford sale and I have the bulk of a Myford VM-B mill.

Now Myfords didn't make these mills, they were imports tidied up by Myfords with Telemechanique electrics fitted so there will be the same mills out there with different badges on them.

This is the model we are talking about.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/lot_535_13222.jpg

This is not the machine I have but a complete one that sold at auction although I now have the spare bed in the picture.

Mine is missing motor, spindle, top guard, pulleys and whatever drives the spindle in the top although everything I have is tatty but new, it was probably robbed for spares.

Not worried about spares as the main casting are enough for the basis of a dedicated CNC with high speed spindle and upside is it only stands me at a few pounds.
It would just be nice knowing what general model it was.

JCHannum
09-28-2011, 09:01 PM
It resembles an Elliot jig bore to some degree. Variations of it were made or rebadged by a few British manufacturers.

Arthur.Marks
09-28-2011, 10:45 PM
Yeah, I was thinking Vernon jig bore---the column and belt cover. I don't know, though.

rklopp
09-29-2011, 12:28 AM
The quill counterbalance spring cover and the belt guard cover latch scream "Asian."

Willy
09-29-2011, 12:56 AM
With a little image searching, ok a long look, this is all I could come up with using a variety of search terms.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/e59b8a49.jpg

Unfortunately the caption accompanying the photo only mentioned the mill as.....Tiawanese.
Not earth shattering news, as I'm sure by your reference as "import" you already knew as much.

Sorry John this is as close as I got. At least you know there's another one out there.:)
Looks like a nice little home shop mill/drill, the dovetail column is a nice touch.

John Stevenson
09-29-2011, 03:57 AM
I'm 99% sure it was Taiwanese and China wasn't up to speed when these were being produced.
I was hoping it was a generic model they latched onto as opposed to one made especially for them.

I still have contact with some Myford guys but at shop floor level they will probably know less than me about sourcing. I will be seeing Chris Moore the ex-Myford MD in a few weeks so I'll ask him.

It's just a query really as there are probably no spares and none needed as I really only want the main castings, having a measure up at the moment to order a set of ball screws. Other than those and a water cooled high speed spindle I have enough motors, drivers etc on the shelf to carry this conversion out.

Myfords did a manual, never seen one but I know someone who has a scanned version and I have asked for a copy.

DFMiller
09-29-2011, 10:02 AM
John,
That looks like a nice candidate for conversion.
What is the bore in the spindle head? Are you going to pull out the existing spindle and plop in the water cooled or are you going to couple on top? My 2.2 KW is 80 mm and ER16.

What is the X Y Z travel?

Dave

John Stevenson
09-29-2011, 11:50 AM
Dave,

Can't really answer any of these questions as the only info I have is the picture of a similar one from the same sale.

Until i have sorted all the bits out and done a quick assemble I don't know the answers.
One website says it has a 24" x 6 table which sounds about right.

I'm toying with using a 0.8K water cooled high speed spindle with ER11 chuck but not sure if these can belt a 4mm drill thru steel.
I have the same spindle, air cooled on my router and need to try doing this.

There is no spindle, just a hole where the quill went and I think the water cooled spindle will fit in there. should be a big job to bore it out if necessary, or sleeve it if bigger.

Seeing as this owes me not a lot and all it's missing for the conversion is ballscrews and spindle, everything else I have from other machines or spare stock I was looking to convert this for just doing division plates for Gert to sell on Ebay.

This way I can leave it setup instead of keep swapping the big CNC over as I do at the moment. Seems silly running a 7.5 Hp motor and compressor just to drill a load of 1/8" holes :D

DFMiller
09-29-2011, 06:46 PM
John,
Than sounds like a great plan. Having a machine set up for a job is a good idea.
Also sounds like a great job for the apprentice. ;-)
You might have to use carbide to drill a 4mm hole as those spindles unless you use a vector drive probably won't have much torque at the required RPM.
Dave

Circlip
09-30-2011, 03:13 AM
"Division plates to suit MYFORD made on a MYFORD miller"????? :D


Regards Ian.

jugs
09-30-2011, 03:18 AM
"Division plates to suit MYFORD made on a MYFORD miller"????? :D


Regards Ian.

Dilivery by post or MY FORD van :)

John Stevenson
10-02-2011, 06:24 PM
The two previous posts by Ian and Jugs was a bit of an in-joke about a run in we had with RDG, the new owners of the Myford brand name - now resolved, and hopefully forgotten ?

Anyway playing with all the bits this weekend for a measure up for ball screws and what a pile of junk this is on the design front.
Turns out they were made in Taiwan for Myford but not certain who's design, the Taiwanese or Myfords and will probably never know the truth.

Main thing is the table is 24" x 6" with a travel of 14" x 6".
When the table is hard back onto the column the spindle is 1.5" from the rear face on 1.5" on the table.
When it's right out the other way the spindle is 1.5" overhanging the table.

Basically the spindle bore is too far out from the column by 1.5"

I'll get some pics tomorrow to show what I mean. No reason why the spindle couldn't have been in the right place, plenty of room but it can't be moved as it has a cored head and where it needs to go is hollow.

It could have gone in the correct place IF someone had thought about this before producing drawings.

Biggest plate this machine will drill is 6" which leaves no room for homing or limits, back to the drawing board...........................

DFMiller
10-02-2011, 07:20 PM
John,
I thought you could weld Cast?
Dave

John Stevenson
10-02-2011, 07:55 PM
Dave, yes I can but to be honest it would be easier to make a new head from solid or a casting than mess with this one.

Wait until tomorrow for the pics and you will see that it's also carrying redundant features like quill feed and the rise and fall mechanism that I won't need.
I still have to make a decision on what type spindle to use anyway.

John Stevenson
10-04-2011, 04:13 PM
Right, some pics at last.

If you are looking for artistic results then look elsewhere <g>

Rough assembled with a lump of tube to represent the missing spindle.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB3.jpg

Right at front of travel with a plate on bed that it will need to machine, plate is 150mm or 6"

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB4.jpg

Full back and it overhanging the bed.

Shot inside the head showing how cored it is, no spare metal anywhere.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB5.jpg


I can squeeze another 15mm to give me 165mm but the problem is the spindle hole is in the wrong position, plus I don't have a spindle anyway or any of the drive mechanism.

Continued in next post.

John Stevenson
10-04-2011, 04:13 PM
So this is the bit that poses the problem.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB6.jpg


So a bit of hacksawing, not shown, a bit of angle grinding, definitely not shown due to artisic license and a bit of surface grinding.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB7.jpg


Only shown because they show it on tele and it's only microns being killed <g>

And we get this:-

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB8.jpg



The motor in the picture is only a slave for pics, new motor ordered.

After searching all the motor specs we can get a 1.1Kw [ 1.5HP ] motor in a reduced 80 frame size at 2800 rpm [ remember we are on 50 Hz ]
80 Frame means 80mm from feet to centreline, that one in the pic is a 63 frame.

So if we run a 2 pole motor at 120 hz which they will stand, they are good for 6,720 which is about the right speed for a 3mm drill.

At low speed usuable torque on a 1.1Kw motor is about 20 Hz giving a low speed of 1,120 rpm.

Not much use for a manual machine but for a CNC only using small cutters this spread is ideal.

So plan B is to strip the new motor when it comes, make a new end up out of solid alloy as most motor ends now and very skimpy, fit a double row angular contact bearing that held in place by a keep plate.

Press the shaft out and make a complete new shaft to take ER 20 collets, because the bearing won't be able to go over the collet chuck bit the rotor will have to be modified to be a push fit, not press fit and have a keyway and retaining nut to hold it in position.
Many grinder rotors are built this way.
Get the rotor re-balanced and rebuild the motor.
motor then bolts to a conversion plate between the cut down head and the motor.

Ballscrews are on order from China, motor should be here later this week or early next week.

kitno455
10-04-2011, 04:57 PM
Move column reward to pick up another inch?

allan

John Stevenson
10-04-2011, 05:10 PM
First thought but it's hollow under the column with 4 bosses for the screws to go in, the rest of the base is not substantial enough IMHO to take the column bolts.

Second thought was a conversion plate but the dovetails on the saddle will hit the conversion plate the same as they hit the column.

Theiskell
10-04-2011, 05:22 PM
Good info about this on the bottom of the page below.
Well…..at least I think it’s the same mill.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/vernon/

DFMiller
10-04-2011, 06:01 PM
John,
That's looking good.
So that motor you need has mounting feet. That's handy. Will you have to adjust the feet to be perfectly parallel to the shaft? Or will it be bang on?

Thanks for the pictures.
Dave

John Stevenson
10-04-2011, 06:10 PM
More than likely, they are turned out literally by the million from diecast parts so although they will be close I don't know how close.

I plan on fitting a solid shaft thru the two bearings, supporting them on a matched set of vee blocks, lightly clamp the case and take a skim off the feet.

Should be good enough for what this machine is needed for. The conversion plate will be surface ground after fitting with the Z way slides on the sticky table so again should be good.

aboard_epsilon
10-04-2011, 06:18 PM
how fast at grinding is that blanchard thing of yours compared with my j&s

do they make a small one ..under a tonne

all the best.markj

DFMiller
10-04-2011, 06:47 PM
John,
Purpose of conversion plate? Is it to fill in the void in the casting? or ?
Is it bolted or welded to the existing saddle?
Inquiring minds need to know?

Dave

John Stevenson
10-04-2011, 06:58 PM
The bolt pattern for the motor is wider than the head casting, or what is left of it hence the conversion plate.
need to sort definite motor mounting specs out then cut a plate, probably screw it and then weld it to the head casting, then grind front face.

Mark, these are very fast compared to a normal surface grinder, because the saw cut wasn't too square as the head kept moving whilst cutting I had about a 5mm taper on the cut, probably took 10 minutes to remove that 5mm.
On my Herbert that would have taken best part of 3/4 of an hour to an hour.

Drawbacks are they get flat but you don't have a lot of control over surface finish.
You can only do open flat surfaces, you can't grind up to an edge because the wheel swings thru an arc.
You also get the usual Lumsden / Blanchard swirls in the finish.

I use it for the division plates , because they are laser cut blanks and been de-scaled I can do both sides of a 6" plate in about a minute, all I'm looking for is cosmetic and flat, not worried about final thickness.

aboard_epsilon
10-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Thanks john ..my shipman would probably take several hours and several dressings to remove 5 mm.

all the best.markj

uncle pete
10-04-2011, 08:07 PM
Since your rebuilding, redesigning using a M..ord as a base machine. Could this be the resurrection of the Mi ford tool works cnc division? :)

As a customer, I have a long memory, RDG isn't and won't be forgotten about.

Pete

John Stevenson
10-08-2011, 08:53 AM
Next instalment, as I said this is only being done on Tuesdays and Fridays as it's the only time my Grandson can get down.

Still awaiting ballscrews etc so got the motor today.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB9.jpg

Bog standard 1.1kw, 1.5 HP motor and stripped it down, nothing to these, cover off, fan off and an end shield then pop the rotor out.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB10.jpg

Original bearing on left, similar but double row angular contact on right.
One thing to note with these new inverter metric framed motors is the absence of slots in the rotor. These are now coming out with the allow 'winding' pressure die cast into internal slots so the outside of the laminations is uninterrupted, less chance of flying out at high speed.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB11.jpg

Shaft pressed out the rotor, keyway broached in and set around the rotor are the existing bearings, two different sized angular contact bearings, existing 20mm and the one I'm going to use at 25mm bore plus a collet and nut for ER25.

I was going to use ER20's but on checking I don't have collets for ER20's so it was a choice of 16's, 25's or 32's so 20's won out.


Next step is to make drawings up of the existing motor so the details can be transposed without cutting metal. This is the existing motor as an accurate drawing.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB12jpg

John Stevenson
10-08-2011, 08:54 AM
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB12jpghttp://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB12.jpg

Drive shaft is on the right.

Same drawing with the modified nose superimposed on it.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB13.jpg

Because the bearing can't go on over the collet nose it's designed to assemble the opposite way and the bearing is held into the front cover by a keep plate so it's held firm with no end float.

This means the rotor will have to assemble onto the shaft after hence the keyway for a sliding fit as opposed to a press fit and a nut on the fan end to secure it all.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB14.jpg

Next job is to copy the spindle, spacer, nut and end cover from the second drawing and dimension up [ only part done so as not to crowd the drawing ] We now have all the details we need to start making the spindle on Tuesday.

Charles P
10-08-2011, 09:31 AM
Thanks john ..my shipman would probably take several hours and several dressings to remove 5 mm.

all the best.markj


After "borrowing" John's swing grinder I went and bought one. Very handy piece of kit

Charles

914Wilhelm
10-08-2011, 11:01 AM
Question? Will the spindle be hollow for a draw bar or what will be the method to retain and lock the collet?

DICKEYBIRD
10-08-2011, 11:11 AM
The ER25 collet taper & thread is to be machined into a new rotor shaft...ER clamp nut screws on from the the front; no drawbar needed. (If I follow Sir John's plans clearly.):)

DFMiller
10-08-2011, 11:20 AM
John,
Nice progress.
So you will have to take the rear motor cap off to adjust the bearings? Or is a dual row AC preloaded?
Thanks
Dave

Peter.
10-08-2011, 11:49 AM
After "borrowing" John's swing grinder I went and bought one. Very handy piece of kit

Charles


Did you buy a new or used one Charles? My company is looking for a way of dressing large breaker chisels.

Charles P
10-09-2011, 05:53 AM
Did you buy a new or used one Charles? My company is looking for a way of dressing large breaker chisels.


Bought it used from a dealer near Durham. It's an Excell. £250 I seem to recall. For a "bench mounted" machine it's heavy - you need a good bench.

Charles

John Stevenson
10-09-2011, 06:24 AM
Peter,
One on Ebay at the moment identical to mine [ looks about the same condition ]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRINDER-DIE-EXCEL-SWING-HEAD-/200405174690

Looks to be a bit expensive though, I think I paid £85 for mine to a guy who was retiring.

They will take off the base for transport, as Charles says they are very heavy but you don't need the base. They are actually made for licking up punch dies where you have to just get a flat sharp edge.

I can't think of a faster way to do chisels with a bit of a jig instead of the sticky table

Charles P
10-09-2011, 06:33 AM
Peter,
One on Ebay at the moment identical to mine [ looks about the same condition ]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRINDER-DIE-EXCEL-SWING-HEAD-/200405174690

Looks to be a bit expensive though, I think I paid £85 for mine to a guy who was retiring.



That one has been on the market, at that price, for must be a year now.

Charles

aboard_epsilon
10-09-2011, 07:47 AM
yup found that one the other day ..

i want one for £85

all the best.markj

John Stevenson
10-09-2011, 08:06 AM
John,
Nice progress.
So you will have to take the rear motor cap off to adjust the bearings? Or is a dual row AC preloaded?
Thanks
Dave

Just a preloaded bearing, off the shelf but decent make by INA.

Have to see how it behaves in use, main use of this machines will be drilling so the forces will be axial as opposed to radial.
Can't see a problem, millions of machines out there that only rely on one deep grove bearing top and bottom for radial and axial operations.

Not looking for perfection 1/4 of a micron is ample ;)

aboard_epsilon
10-09-2011, 08:26 AM
Peter,
One on Ebay at the moment identical to mine [ looks about the same condition ]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRINDER-DIE-EXCEL-SWING-HEAD-/200405174690

Looks to be a bit expensive though, I think I paid £85 for mine to a guy who was retiring.

They will take off the base for transport, as Charles says they are very heavy but you don't need the base. They are actually made for licking up punch dies where you have to just get a flat sharp edge.

I can't think of a faster way to do chisels with a bit of a jig instead of the sticky table
why is it listed twice, at two different prices and two different dealers..same town though

two diffferent irish sounding names Martin O'Gorman for one and Dan Monaghan for the other


simmachinetools and bowlandtrading

sounds like a couple of gypo's to me ..beware!!

all the best.markj

Peter.
10-09-2011, 09:00 AM
Thanks for the info.

Doubt they'll want to pay a grand but I'll mention it and keep my eye out for anything similar. It would have to be automated anyway but that would be a simple enough thing to do.

Timleech
10-09-2011, 11:51 AM
why is it listed twice, at two different prices and two different dealers..same town though

two diffferent irish sounding names Martin O'Gorman for one and Dan Monaghan for the other


simmachinetools and bowlandtrading

sounds like a couple of gypo's to me ..beware!!

all the best.markj

Just because they have Irish names?

Martin is OK, dealt with him a number of times in the past (not recently admittedly). They do seem to be trying to go upmarket with their prices recently, and mostly fixed prices 'or offer' rather than auctions now.

Tim

Timleech
10-13-2011, 05:40 AM
Thanks for the info.

Doubt they'll want to pay a grand but I'll mention it and keep my eye out for anything similar. It would have to be automated anyway but that would be a simple enough thing to do.

This one is a little cheaper,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250908875703

It might be worth speaking directly to Martin with an offer about the other one, they're giving the ebay offer option & if it's been on the books for a long time might be willing to talk about sensible money for it.

Tim

John Stevenson
10-23-2011, 08:57 AM
OK, catching up.
Tuesday was out this week because of the show so only Friday available.

Now got the drawing for the spindle from the previous sheets so lump of metal cut and front bit of the spindle machined.

Simple machining, bore the taper , thread for the nut. Next bit is the crucial bit and it's stood me in good stead making quite a few similar spindles.

Remove from the chuck and replace with a bit of Scrapbinium [TM ] turn this down, in this case to 16mm so the largest ER25 collet can grip on it.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB15.jpg

Then carefully drill the tail centre hole, do this at low speed so the shaft doesn't whip, once the centre has been drilled and supported the shaft can be belted down to size.
I tend to turn everything down with 1/2 a mill left on for final cutting, the reason behind this is that the shaft is constantly getting hotter as you block the bulk out. Once cool then reset the tail centre as it will have moved moved under expansion and turn to finished size.

This is state of play at the moment.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB16.jpg

I need to make the new end housing up, do a quick assemble, check for run out then send for Tuftriding, then final assemble and test run, hopefully by the end of this week and I can get back onto the main frame fitting screws etc.

John S.

uncle pete
10-23-2011, 02:35 PM
John,
Nice, Logical, (after I've seen it) way of turning that shaft for zero runout. Your going to post a video once this machines operational..........right?

Pete

John Stevenson
10-23-2011, 03:01 PM
Hopefully,
I wouldn't normally do a blow by blow report of something this mundane but Grandson is using this as part of his engineering practical module at school so every step is being photographed.

A lot of it will not be of much interest to many, fit screws, fit motors etc but I thought the motor spindle arrangement would be of interest to a few as I have done this before on motors up to 12,000 rpm on 200 Hz but this is a bog standard 2 pole 2,800 rev motor which is within everyone's reach to do similar.

uncle pete
10-23-2011, 04:32 PM
Well if this is also part of your Grandsons education, I'd hope his written report doesn't start out with "Why Bridgeports are a P.O.S." :D

Pete

DFMiller
10-23-2011, 05:51 PM
Or talk about if you can see the floor you need to get some more stuff. ;-)
Thanks for the tip on turning the OD.
Dave

John Stevenson
10-26-2011, 04:03 PM
Managed to get all the bits back and assembled the motor tonight.
Just sat on the bench with a collet and drill blank in the collet and turning by hand i get about 1/4 of a thou run out right on the end.

End housing is just a solid lump of alloy bored for the register and bearing so seeing as it was so thick I belted two 26mm holes in for headlights.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB17.jpg

Two 5v CREE LED lights from China, dead bright these are you can weld with them.

Switched off all the lights in the shop and switched these on pointing across the shop.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB19.jpg

That's just these two lights. Took another picture with the motor jacked up as though it is working but all you could see was two overlapping orbs so i had to shine the lathe work light over towards the bench to get some background lighting.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB20.jpg

Now got to sort an inverter out and test run the motor, bought a big box of 10 surplus inverters a while ago and can't find the damn box.............................

DFMiller
10-26-2011, 06:32 PM
I say that is bright enough.
You should bore a hole through the spindle and mount a battery powered laser pointer on the top side go you can use it for alignment purposes.
Looking great. Is that end cap painted or Anodized?
Thanks
Dave

jugs
10-27-2011, 06:35 PM
Managed to get all the bits back and assembled the motor tonight.
Just sat on the bench with a collet and drill blank in the collet and turning by hand i get about 1/4 of a thou run out right on the end.

......

So you can't work to 3 micron then http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Winks/wink-3.gif

John Stevenson
11-06-2011, 06:54 AM
Friday nights episode.

Couldn't find the box of inverters ??? might have sold them ?? so ordered a new one.

New inverter wired up and test run.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB22.jpg

Backed off to 6,000 drops the noise a bit which is mainly fan noise, might pay me to reduce the fan diameter but see how it runs and cuts first.

Conversion plate made and bolted to the head casting with countersunk screws and motor fitted.
need a new set of holes drilled as it's about 40mm too high, not a problem.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/VMB23.jpg

State of play at the moment, ball screw fitted roughly, conversion plate needs a tidy up as regards cutting the width down, radius corners etc.

Tuesday night job is to make a top plate that will support the stepper inside the column and carry a bearing block for the top of the ball screw.

Been drawn up and belts and pulleys, 2:1 reduction, HTD 5M, on order.

John S.

RussZHC
11-06-2011, 07:31 AM
John:

Those two lights immediately put me in mind of another British classic (even before reading the next comment)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2002027/Dambusters-dog-renamed-Digger-remake-iconic-film.html

"The Dambusters", link above is to info about the remake.
Those who have not seen the movie (a) very interesting if somewhat romanticized account of planning and execution of a raid during WWII, (b) there are a few scenes dealing with the use of lights on the wings to accurately determine position for dropping bombs

Oh, glad you began posting something this mundane...for you its pretty ordinary for some of us it would really push the limit of capabilities (the "us" being me, for one)

John Stevenson
11-06-2011, 07:42 AM
Normally I wouldn't post all the words and music, especially with something like this VM-B which whilst not that rare, isn't a mainstream machine such as an X3 etc.

It's being documented in more detail as a design exercise for my Grandsons 5th year engineering project. When completed it's going to do one job, drilling division plates, but he'll then be responsible for the running of it to earn him some pocket money.

DFMiller
11-06-2011, 10:19 AM
John,
That's looking good. It's good to see to exceeded your top speed target.
Are you going to use 2:1 reductions on all axis or just the Z?
Dave

John Stevenson
11-06-2011, 11:04 AM
Just the Z, the others will be direct drive thru an Oldham coupling.

DFMiller
11-06-2011, 02:39 PM
John,
Was that choice for ease of mounting or because the motor is so heavy?
Thanks
Dave