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Carbide Dies
09-29-2011, 09:00 AM
I'm in Michigan and cold weather is fast approaching. I need to heat my free standing 2.5 car garage. I have been insulating it and now need to get to the nitty-gritty task of providing some heat. I had bought a wood burning stove last winter but have changed my mind about it for a few reasons (stove pipe costs, fire hazard, constantly feeding wood) so now I'm thinking about running a 70' gas line from my house and getting a gas heater. However, this can be expensive and I'll need a professionals help. I have heard electric heaters are very expensive to run so I wasn't sure about that, then someone mentioned they have new ultra-efficient electric heaters that make this viable?

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good way to do this, or do you think I'm heading down the right path running a gas line? I have grinders with coolant tanks and machines I would like to keep warm. Another question is will the machines be OK if they did drop below freezing or would this cause damage to them.

Thanks for any input, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something.

NOTE: I'm reposting this in "General"... I think it fits their better. Thanks!

Carbide Dies
09-29-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm in Michigan and cold weather is fast approaching. I need to heat my free standing 2.5 car garage. I have been insulating it and now need to get to the nitty-gritty task of providing some heat. I had bought a wood burning stove last winter but have changed my mind about it for a few reasons (stove pipe costs, fire hazard, constantly feeding wood) so now I'm thinking about running a 70' gas line from my house and getting a gas heater. However, this can be expensive and I'll need a professionals help. I have heard electric heaters are very expensive to run so I wasn't sure about that, then someone mentioned they have new ultra-efficient electric heaters that make this viable?

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good way to do this, or do you think I'm heading down the right path running a gas line? I have grinders with coolant tanks and machines I would like to keep warm. Another question is will the machines be OK if they did drop below freezing or would this cause damage to them.

Thanks for any input, I just want to make sure I'm not missing something.

gary350
09-29-2011, 10:46 AM
I have a 24'x30' shop I heat with wood. I have plywood on the walls and ceiling. I insulation in the walls and ceiling too. The 2 metal garage doors use to have NO insulating and I could not keep the shop warm at all. I bought 2" thick styrofoam board at Lowe's cut to fit all the door sections and put 2" styrofoam board over the windows. I covered the top half of one window with sheet metal with a round hole for the stove pipe. Stove pipe is cheap only about $3 for a 4ft section of galvanized stove pipe. This is actually the same stuff they use for AC duct work. I have one 4 ft section come up out of the stove, elbow and 2 more sections to the window and 2 more sections out the window. I put the stove pipe sections end to end with 4 screws. I have a small box stove from TSC. I start a fire and in 20 minutes the temperature is getting pretty warm. Once it gets warm I only need to throw in about 4 pieces of wood every 1 hour at first once everything in the room has warmed up too then wood every 2 hours is all I need to keep it warm. I can get the temperature up to 90 if I want but I keep it about 65 degrees F that way I can stay busy and not get hot. I check Craigslist during the summer and after storms for free firewood. I have about 5 ricks of wood already cut it was all free. Free wood is a lot cheaper than paying for gas or electic heat. I only burn 1 rick of wood every winter so I don't need anymore wood for about 4 years.

garagemark
09-29-2011, 10:56 AM
I can't help much with your choice of heat, but I have a rather large garage that is too big (read expensive) to heat. I use spot heating for when I'm inside, a kerosene bullet heater. I also have partitioned off a smaller section that gets electric heat all the time for things that could freeze. My tools have not had an issue with this, but I don't heat the area for very long periods ( I rat around in the evenings some and all day on weekends). And if it's too cold and it isn't an emergency, I just stay in the house. Winters can suck with such a large building.

Unless you will keep the space heated continually, you may want to watch out for condensation. The spot heater is trained directly to the tools I'm using and so they warm past condensation level rather quickly. If I were going to heat a smaller space continually, I would look at a small heat pump with a couple of strip heaters for the butt-ass cold days. Then you get the bonus of AC in the summer! :)

Mark

Carbide Dies
09-29-2011, 11:30 AM
If I were going to heat a smaller space continually, I would look at a small heat pump with a couple of strip heaters for the butt-ass cold days. Then you get the bonus of AC in the summer! :)

Mark

Thanks for responding! I don't mean to sound dumb, but here goes... what do you mean by heat pump?

philbur
09-29-2011, 11:31 AM
In the context of heating your garage there is no such thing as an ultra-efficient heater.

If an electric heater consumes 1 kW-hour then that amount of energy goes into heating your garage. An ultra-efficient heater cannot turn that 1 kW-hour of energy into 1.1 kW-hour. Equally a low efficiency heater cannot turn that 1 kW-hour of energy into 0.9 kw-hour.

If you burn wood or gas you have to vent the combustion products outside, along with a significant portion of the heat unless you buy a sophisticated system.

My garage has the luxury of electric underfloor heating.:rolleyes:

Phil:)


then someone mentioned they have new ultra-efficient electric heaters that make this viable?

BigMike782
09-29-2011, 11:48 AM
My 32x32x10 shop is very well insulated and I use a Hot Dawg heater on propane.I can typically get two heating seasons on 400 gallons.This year I am going to try a pellet stove for weekend to raise the temp on all the cast iron and see if I can stretch my propane.
If I had it to do over again I would put PEX tubing under the concrete and use a domestic water heater for radiant heat.

J.Ramsey
09-29-2011, 12:02 PM
I'd go with a gas furnace even if your not going be in the shop 8 hours a day, turn the thermostat down at night to about 58-60 and kick it up during shop time.

Call some of the local hvac shops and see if they have any later model take outs that they kept when doing an upgrade/change out, these can be had for cheap(usually less than $100) and they may install it for a reasonable amount also,that is what I did in my previous shop before I moved.

When I built my new 34x78 playhouse I went with a 96% Lennox heat & air and use about 400 gal. of propane annually with the thermostat set on 68 degrees 24/7.
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3383/lennoxfurnaceacshopmedi.jpg

EVguru
09-29-2011, 12:04 PM
I have two winter problems in my workshop.

Condensation. I've had water actually dripping of machines and the floor properly wet. I deal with that using a de-humidifier. I bought a small one from the local DIY store (B&Q) which has the provision for a continuous drain.

Comfort. Actually being able to get stuff done. At the moment I'm use a monster fan heater I built. It's a 19" rack case with four 120mm fans and three ceramic cores removed from cheap B&Q heaters. Originally rated at 1200 Watt, each core is actually pumping out more like 1800 Watt thanks to the increased airflow. I've only got two cores connected up as it's running from a 13 Amp fused UK plug.

Infra red heating would be better because it would make me feel warm fast, without having to raise the air temperature.

A heat pump moves heat from one location to another. A domestic fridge or freezer is a heat pump, it moves heat out of the food and air inside and dumps it out the back. You can use one to move heat from the soil, water, or air around your property to the interior. The Watt/hour value of the heat moved can be several times the Watt/hour of electricty consumed, so in comparison to a simple electric heater you can be getting 300% more heat for your money.

P.A.R.
09-29-2011, 12:23 PM
This works,an can be made easily.This is one design. "lots of clips:cool:"
http://youtu.be/Jzxw1j-dzY4

928gene928
09-29-2011, 12:27 PM
Carbide,
I can only share my experience over many years. Started out with a old fashion kerosene heater that looked very much like a small fire place that someone had given me. Back then the fuel wasn't too expensive, but it was a pain to refill all the time, took up too much floor space, and like you mentioned I was worried about the fire hazard, especially if not attended.

I finally decided on a natural gas fired unit heater that hangs from the ceiling. I was able to get a good used unit. After much discussion with folks that know, I also decided to use a roll of plastic pipe to get the gas from the house to the garage. In my case it was about 75'.

Must say that it was the best thing I ever did, almost instant heat and temperature control, and can leave the unit unattended.

It has been installed many years without any problems. I have noticed recently while I was at Menards that they carry very compact gas unit heaters that are designed for a garage application.

Good luck with your project, the cold weather is on it's way.

j king
09-29-2011, 12:58 PM
I have an outdoor wood stove and love it ..The machine shop has a radiator the size of a box of cereal. The garage has a radiator that sits under my work bench and heats a 24x 42 area. I put up a partition wall in the middle and separate where the cars are kept in the winter.I sit out there in the winter with shorts on while I watch tv shows that I want and slurp on beers.

This was the best thing I have done for heat. The fire is always going while it heats house anyway so no more starting fires everytime I want to go out.Now it is turn up thermostat and go at it.

jlh
09-29-2011, 01:12 PM
My shop is 36 x 40 with 10' sidewalls, fully insulated. I picked up a 125K BTU counterflow gas furnace at a yard sale and have been very happy with it. Gets the shop up to temp in 10-15 minutes. I was advised by other shop owners to get an oversized heater so that the area can be heated up quickly. I turn off the heat at night. It is an older heater with a pilot flame and I believe that may help keep condensation down. I've never had any rust problems, but we live in a dry climate. I had to run about 60' of 3/4" pipe, about half of it underground and used the coated pipe for the underground run. This has been a trouble free and low cost solution for me.
Jim

dneufell
09-29-2011, 02:36 PM
BigMike782...you are going to love the pellet stove...I heat the house (sf ?) and another pellet stove in the shop (4000sf !!! ) ....works nice :)

SteveF
09-29-2011, 02:38 PM
Whether electric is more expensive or not depends on the cost of electricity, cost of fuels, efficiency of appliances, etc.


http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

I have an extremely well insulated and sealed shop that gets heated with two 1500 watt baseboard heaters for about $60 per winter. Helps that my winters aren't too bad.

Anything that burns in the shop without venting will add water to the air. Once I used a kerosene heater and about a week later noticed a thin film of rust on everything. Sold it soon after.

Steve

HAP
09-29-2011, 03:08 PM
I put 2 of these in my 40x60 insulated steel building. Installed at 45* angles opposing eachother, they do a great job. I just installed the old heat pump from my house this spring along with a "Big Ass" brand ceiling fan to reduce air statification. The heat pump should really reduce propane usage for those not-so-freezing days or nights. Othewise, I used a 175K BTU propane bullet heater, but it was just too loud and always in the way. Still handy for spot heating/defrosting outdoors.
I bought a millivolt version (requires no electricity) and the transformer version of the infrared heaters just to have the versatility. Really happy with them. I think I payed about $360.00 each about 4 years ago.
Happy heating.
http://www.enerco.com/product.aspx?groupid=0&catid=76&id=378
HAP

Carbide Dies
09-29-2011, 03:39 PM
Carbide,
I can only share my experience over many years. Started out with a old fashion kerosene heater that looked very much like a small fire place that someone had given me. Back then the fuel wasn't too expensive, but it was a pain to refill all the time, took up too much floor space, and like you mentioned I was worried about the fire hazard, especially if not attended.

I finally decided on a natural gas fired unit heater that hangs from the ceiling. I was able to get a good used unit. After much discussion with folks that know, I also decided to use a roll of plastic pipe to get the gas from the house to the garage. In my case it was about 75'.

Must say that it was the best thing I ever did, almost instant heat and temperature control, and can leave the unit unattended.

It has been installed many years without any problems. I have noticed recently while I was at Menards that they carry very compact gas unit heaters that are designed for a garage application.

Good luck with your project, the cold weather is on it's way.

Thanks, its looking more and more like that is what I have to do... did you run the gas line yourself, and hook it up yourself?

Carbide Dies
09-29-2011, 04:07 PM
My shop is 36 x 40 with 10' sidewalls, fully insulated. I picked up a 125K BTU counterflow gas furnace at a yard sale and have been very happy with it. Gets the shop up to temp in 10-15 minutes. I was advised by other shop owners to get an oversized heater so that the area can be heated up quickly. I turn off the heat at night. It is an older heater with a pilot flame and I believe that may help keep condensation down. I've never had any rust problems, but we live in a dry climate. I had to run about 60' of 3/4" pipe, about half of it underground and used the coated pipe for the underground run. This has been a trouble free and low cost solution for me.
Jim

Jim, that's what I"m looking to do I guess, glad to hear its working for you. Did you hook it all up yourself?

Thanks,
Carbide Dies

jdunmyer
09-29-2011, 04:20 PM
CD,
Listen to Steve, don't use a non-vented heater, you'll have rust on everything.

Over the past 45 years, I've had 3 heaters in my 20' X 40' shop: a counterflow oil furnace, a woodburning barrel stove that I rigged a computer control onto, and now a gas furnace. Had to change to the gas furnace so we could travel in the Winter.

I keep the shop at 53 degrees when I'm not here, and it isn't too costly to heat with natural gas. Although I'm well-insulated, the smallish windows aren't, and there's an 8' X 7' overhead door.

JoeLee
09-29-2011, 04:31 PM
I ran a gas line to my shop and have a horizontal furnace in the attic, about 35K BTU. It's worked well for me for 25 years +. I thought of a wood burning stove at first but then decided against it for most of the reasons the other posters mentioned. It's messy, dangerous, PITA, temperature swings would be a big problem unless you were around to feed the fire day and night. Big temp. swings aren't any good for the machines or any thing else in the shop and condensations would be the worst problem. I do supplement with a small electric heater which helps cut down on the gas bill. This year I'm going to try a larger 220 volt electric heater and see how that helps.

JL..........................

Carbide Dies
09-29-2011, 04:44 PM
CD,
Listen to Steve, don't use a non-vented heater, you'll have rust on everything.

Over the past 45 years, I've had 3 heaters in my 20' X 40' shop: a counterflow oil furnace, a woodburning barrel stove that I rigged a computer control onto, and now a gas furnace. Had to change to the gas furnace so we could travel in the Winter.

I keep the shop at 53 degrees when I'm not here, and it isn't too costly to heat with natural gas. Although I'm well-insulated, the smallish windows aren't, and there's an 8' X 7' overhead door.

Excellent, I already had a rust problem this summer, pain in the butt and it makes everything look like hell. This is why I love this forum, great input, thanks.

Carbide Dies

rkepler
09-29-2011, 05:11 PM
In the context of heating your garage there is no such thing as an ultra-efficient heater.

If an electric heater consumes 1 kW-hour then that amount of energy goes into heating your garage. An ultra-efficient heater cannot turn that 1 kW-hour of energy into 1.1 kW-hour. Equally a low efficiency heater cannot turn that 1 kW-hour of energy into 0.9 kw-hour.

That's not strictly true - a heat pump can have higher efficiency than a resistive heater while consuming the same amount of electricity. A ground source heat pump can pump somewhere near 4KW of heat in when using 1KW of electricity.

Chris S.
09-29-2011, 06:45 PM
That's not strictly true - a heat pump can have higher efficiency than a resistive heater while consuming the same amount of electricity. A ground source heat pump can pump somewhere near 4KW of heat in when using 1KW of electricity.

When I first read this I thought I stumbled upon another "Over Unity" nut, but I see you're not actually saying that. :D

Chris

Uncle O
09-29-2011, 07:42 PM
I ran a gas line out to my garage, and use a ventless heater. If you use a ventless, you will need to use a dehumidifier too, otherwise you will have moisture build-up. Really not a big deal to me to run them both.

rkepler
09-29-2011, 08:09 PM
When I first read this I thought I stumbled upon another "Over Unity" nut, but I see you're not actually saying that.

Heat pumps are nothing more than an AC unit running backwards. The difference between an AC unit and a ground source heat pump is that the latter uses a fixed supply temperature and so can be tuned to use it to advantage - where a traditional heat pump using outside air will lose efficiency as the air temperature gets lower (and eventually turning to resistance heating) the ground source heat pump has a nice constant supply temp so the efficiency remains about the same year round.

Downside is that the physical installation is bigger - you need a fair loop underground as a sink and installing that can be costly.

Cheeseking
09-29-2011, 10:04 PM
Run the gas line from the house add 75K btu Mr. Heater or equivalent and be done.

Don Young
09-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Don't be misled about the efficiency of electric heaters. Every electric heater ever made has converted electricity into heat with about 99% efficiency. The only thing other than heat that the electricity becomes is a little light and/or sound. Electric heat is clean and convenient but do not waste your money on the "miracle" gimmicks.

That being said, electric heaters are generally the most expensive form of heating, depending on your electric rates. Heat pumps, which are generally larger and much more expensive than electric heaters, do cost less to operate than electric heaters in moderate climates. Whether the higher initial cost and upkeep are worth the savings is up to you.

In many sections of the country, gas heat has the lowest operating cost. You would probably not want one of the un-vented gas heaters because they generate a lot of moisture and some fumes and are therefore not recommended in un-ventilated areas.

My dream shop heater is gas operated, vented, and overhead.

4GSR
09-29-2011, 10:29 PM
Move your shop to South Texas. It don't look like it's going to get below 60 deg F all winter long!:(

Bill736
09-29-2011, 11:30 PM
Don is right about electric heaters. They are all nearly 100% efficient, and the expensive ones are sold using misleading advertising. Your only options with electric heaters are whether your use radiant heat types to heat small, specific areas of your shop ( usually pointed at where you are working) , or using types that heat by convection or blowers, meant to heat large areas. ( Heat pumps not included.)
30 years ago, I bought a used oil burner/forced air furnace for my 3 bay shop. I tied the flue into my chimney. It worked fine, but the cost of heating oil these days is too high, and I don't use it anymore. If you're looking for a compact oil burner furnace, mobile homes came with neat little furnaces that burn about 1/2 gallon per hour . But, buying a used furnace is risky, since the heat exchanger may be burned through. One more thing; furnace or stove flues should not be made from thin, 30 gauge pipe meant for hot air distribution. They will corrode through too quickly. Use thicker 26 gauge galvanized or black steel flue pipe, or stainless . You may have to buy from a plumbing supply, since home centers often only sell the thin pipes.

Jim Caudill
09-30-2011, 12:44 AM
I have used resistance strip heaters in an air-handler for many years. Yes, it can be expensive, but you have control over how, and when, you use it. I could have natural gas heat relatively easy, but have so far decided to keep the electric.

My main concerns about switching have been the flame from the burner and possible condensation. I have seriously looked at the Heat pumps that mount thru the wall, like motels use. You still will wind up with resistance heat when the temp gets below the upper 30's. I have a heat pump for my house, and it does save me money over natural gas (my old BG furnace is my back-up heat). The electric is very convenient and clean, but I respect anyone's choice of how to heat.

You could also go with bottled propane as an alternative to the 70' gas line. Around here, it seems like any gas line will cost about $500 just to get in and out of the ground, then factor in the length of trench and gas line length. You could easily have an $800 line. That buys a lot of propane premium (difference between the propane and natural gas).

Like the old trucker song: "there ain't no easy run.."

Frank Ford
09-30-2011, 02:04 AM
I'm a fan of those infrared electric heaters that mount near the ceiling. Now, I can't relate to actual cold weather, but I do like the ceiling heaters because the first thing they heat up is the top of my head, so once I turn on the juice, I get nearly immediate effect.

I have two in my 18x18 poorly insulated garage shop, and they do a great job when the weather gets really freezing around here. OK, not freezing - more like the 40s. They are neat and clean, although they do use close to 30 amps when they are on. The good news is that they don't have to stay on all that long. Often enough I use only the one over the side of the shop where I'm standing.

Rather than a thermostat, I use a timer so if I leave the shop the heat goes off even if I forget to turn it off.

darryl
09-30-2011, 02:19 AM
Another option, not for full shop heating, but to help with heat and provide protection for machine surfaces would be to add some heat to each machine. An ordinary light bulb might be enough to keep the machine warmer than the surrounding air. Mount them underneath and provide air flow so the heat can flow over the bulk of the machines somehow.

You might be able to use heat tape in some way, though you'd want to be careful about warping precision surfaces through uneven heating. You might need a thermostat of some kind, or you might find that certain heat tapes have that built-in.

In any event, all the heat that's generated is within the shop, so it would keep it a tad warmer. As far as how many watts you'd be willing to pay for on a continuous basis through the cold season- it should be a lot cheaper to apply the heat where it will do some good, at the machines, rather than have a gas heater heating the whole shop just to keep the machines from rusting. You would still install a gas furnace anyway, but you could use a 'smart' thermostat and let the shop be on the cool side when you're not going to be in there.

One more thing you could do is add some kind of remote control to the thermostat. Push a button just before dinner, and the shop heater comes on. When you go out to it, it's comfortably warm already.

MichaelP
09-30-2011, 02:38 AM
Run the gas line from the house add 75K btu Mr. Heater or equivalent and be done.
Exactly. I have 100,000 Btu one in my insulated shop (former 2 1/2 car garage), and it takes 40min-1hour to heat the space from -4F to +68F. Then it doesn't need to switch often or stay on for a long time. However, I wouldn't run it 24/7 unless I need to work there daily. I have never measured the gas consumption, but suspect 24/7 may be too expensive even if the space is kept at 40F or so. I should measure an average gas consumption / cost of running one day...

P.S. My garage is attached, so I also have one register open that brings air from the inside of the house. I did it not only to keep the garage slightly warmer, but also to keep it a bit drier (in the winter and also in the summer). By the way, I run a dehumidifier there 24/7 in the summer.

I only spend 3-4 days a week in this house, so the house itself is not fully heated all the time. If it were, the garage would always stay well above the freezing temperature, and I could get by with a much less powerful heater. I bought mine when the garage wasn't insulated, and the same temperature rise would take over 4 hours then. Now, when everything is insulated, I'm sure a 75,000 Btu unit would be sufficient.

P.P.S. In the winter, I try to keep my machinery covered with fabric tarps and keep GoldenRod heating sticks underneath the machines. The heaters are completely fire safe, relatively inexpensive, and have very low power consumption. Last winter (after the insulation project received final touches) I, mostly, skipped this approach, and, fortunately, didn't see any problems.

generatorgus
09-30-2011, 08:12 AM
Maybe this won't apply well to your more severe winter temps, here in NE PA, I use an oil fired hot air trailer furnace set to 45 or 50 at night and for quick warmup while my small old fasioned wood stove gets to burning, both share the same insulated SS chimney. The stove burns relatively hot using good "DRY" hardwood and has virtually no creasote buildup. Usually costs about $100 to $200 for fuel oil for the season, and maybe 2 to 4 cords of wood, depending on how much you are in the shop. Been using this setup about 20 years with no problem, and if a there is a day that you won't be out there long you can use the oil burner instead of starting a fire. Also, a tarp covering your wood stack is no substitute for a roof as far as dry wood is concerned.
I like burning the stove, it's a nice steady heat and you can back your A__ up to it and have a beer at the end of the day, or all afternoon if you prefer. It promotes the thought process. :D

GUS

gary350
09-30-2011, 10:09 AM
I replied to this yesterday but it seems to have vanished so I will post again.

I have a 24'x30' garage shop that I heat with a small box stove from TSC. The large metal garage door use to make the place hard to heat until I covered both doors with 2" styrofoam board from Lowe's. I used a hacksaw blade to cut the board to fit all the panels on both doors. Walls and ceiling are insulated too.

I fire up the stove and the shop is starting to get warm in 20 minutes. I only put wood in the stove about once per hour for the first couple of hours after than the stove needs wood about once every 2 hours. I don't have any problem holding the temperature at any temperature I like all day. Next morning the temperature in the shop is about 40 degrees and 15 degrees outside. It warms up quick and stays warm all day.

I collect free firewood to burn there are lots of ads on craigslist people giving away free already cut wood. I pick up a mix of hard and soft wood. Soft wood is good to start a fire quick and make fast heat then the hard wood keeps it warm all day. There is so much free wood I am pretty selective I pick up pieces the size I need for my stove so I don't have to do any splitting if possible. I only burn 1 rick of wood all winter.

I have my stove pipe going out the top of a window. I replaced the glass with a piece of sheet metal with a hole for the stove pipe. I had a problem with real stove pipes they are expensive and rust out after 3 years. I bought 4 ft sections of galvinazed heat & AC duct work pipe it is cheap only about $3 per pipe. I have 1 pipe going up from the stove to an elbow, 2 pipes to the window, 2 pipes outside the window. The galvanized pipe has been lasting very well 10 years so far.

lakeside53
09-30-2011, 11:14 AM
So.. I'm in Eastern "Western WA" which isn't all that cold. We sit around 35 most of the winter, have 6 weeks of snow with temps in the high teens/low 20's, but get down to zero ocassionally.

No matter what heat source you choose, insulation is the key. I have an 18x30 barn that I recently finished insulating as best I could - the existing structure was built for horses, not machines - R15 walls, R19 ceiling. I replaced the large junk single pane aluminum frame windows with smaller high-end double glazed vinyl which I found dirt cheap on CL. The "barn doors" are also insulated and built more like an opening wall segment.

Buttoned-up with no heat the shop never drops below 40F no matter what the outside temperaure is. The concrete slab is my primary source of "heat", or "cooling" in the summer. I looked at wood and have natural gas, but decided not to use either. I put in a 4Kw ceiling mounted fan heater that gets the room to 70 in short order on most days, and runs often when it's really cold.

DFMiller
09-30-2011, 11:23 AM
Jim,
Got any links to the through wall heat pumps? They sound interesting. I do like my air to air heat pump for the house.

Thanks
Dave

DFMiller
09-30-2011, 11:26 AM
Gary,
The reason you post disappeared is thread is double posted in Third hand section. I will ask moderator to move it in one place.
Dave

jlh
09-30-2011, 01:03 PM
Jim, that's what I"m looking to do I guess, glad to hear its working for you. Did you hook it all up yourself?

Thanks,
Carbide Dies


Yes, did it all myself. Plumbing supply place locally was very helpful in getting me all the code requirements satisfied. I also have a second gas tap in the shop to run my heat treating furnace. On the subject of non vented heaters, they create a lot of moisture which condenses and causes rust even in this dry climate. I know from experience.
Jim

Jim Caudill
09-30-2011, 02:50 PM
Here is a link to help with selecting the size of PTAC unit that one might use for a small shop.

https://www.ptacunits.com/faqs.aspx

jdunmyer
09-30-2011, 03:34 PM
The O.P. has natural gas available to him, and it's almost certainly the cheapest option for heating his shop. Cost will be about half that of Propane. It's easy to calculate relative costs; we did this for a friend who was contemplating switching his house when the gas company extended their line. He switched, and the cost was in fact about half what he'd been paying. I'd bet that cost of heating with N.G. would be 1/4 that of electric resistance. An air-source heat pump would not be a good bet in the Detroit area.

A non-vented gas heater is an abomination, IMO, especially a radiant unit in a low-ceiling area. You get your head and anything else under the unit fried when the thing is running, and every bit of steel will have a patina of rust. The only upside is that they're cheap.

An easy and not-too-expensive solution is a "unit heater" that hangs from the ceiling. Grainger's has them, among others. The downside is that they're somewhat noisy.

In my experience, the best solution is a regular furnace of the counter-flow type. Installation is done by simply setting the thing on a stand about a foot off the floor. The great part is the warm floor, almost as good as the actual heat-in-the-floor setups. If you can find a used house (or mobile home) furnace, it's cheap. A heating contractor is likely to have one from someone trading up to a high-efficiency unit. The downside is that this does take up a bit of floor space, and can be somewhat expensive if you can't find a used unit.

I have a computer thermostat on my shop furnace that is configured to only set the temperature BACK, never UP. I turn the setpoint up when I'm in the shop and if I forget to cut it back, the t'stat does it for me.

Actually, a wood stove that is installed and operated properly is quite safe, albeit not nearly as convenient as gas. Of course, the economics of heating with wood are quite dependent on your cost of wood. Plus, how much work you're willing/able to invest. The woodstove worked well for me when we were operating the sawmill on a fairly steady basis, it would not be good now.

Ohio Mike
09-30-2011, 05:34 PM
I have a computer thermostat on my shop furnace that is configured to only set the temperature BACK, never UP. I turn the setpoint up when I'm in the shop and if I forget to cut it back, the t'stat does it for me.
Those can be handy. Get a 7 day unit and you could also program days ahead. Say you know you'll be in the shop this Saturday AM then change the Sat AM window to 68 degrees and that morning you come out to nice comfy warm shop.

I have a ceiling mounted 5000 watt electric in the shop which is roughly 24x32 feet. I'm buying a new R17+ rated garage door and I hope that really helps this winter. I usually have it set low and then turn it up when I'll be out there. Its expensive but it will keep the shop warm if you let it, and it doesn't need any attention. One thing it won't do is fast warm up. Between the large space and the thousands of pounds of cast iron and steel I have to use an alternate be get instant warmth. I've been thinking about an old mobile home oil furnace, something about 75,000 BTU. Any thoughts on the legality and insurance issues with installing a furnace in the garage?

DFMiller
09-30-2011, 05:36 PM
Jim,
Thanks for that link. I was having a problem finding anything other than sizing information. PTAC is the magic search term.
Now I have to find someone in Western Canada to give me a quote.
Thank you
Dave

The Artful Bodger
09-30-2011, 05:46 PM
Whatever heating you choose I recommend also spending money and effort on the very best insulation you can install.

jdunmyer
09-30-2011, 06:31 PM
Ohio Mike said:


I have a ceiling mounted 5000 watt electric in the shop which is roughly 24x32 feet. I'm buying a new R17+ rated garage door and I hope that really helps this winter. I usually have it set low and then turn it up when I'll be out there. Its expensive but it will keep the shop warm if you let it, and it doesn't need any attention. One thing it won't do is fast warm up. Between the large space and the thousands of pounds of cast iron and steel I have to use an alternate be get instant warmth. I've been thinking about an old mobile home oil furnace, something about 75,000 BTU. Any thoughts on the legality and insurance issues with installing a furnace in the garage?


That's what I like about a regular furnace, it's fast to warm things up. My 'stat is set at 53 when I'm not in the shop (I have a water system, so can't let it freeze), but crank it up to 62 or more, depending on what I'm doing.

As long as the furnace is installed properly, I don't see a problem with laws or insurance. My present furnace was installed by "professionals" (crappy-looking job, but they had the license) because I had to have a seperate gas service installed. I've since installed 2 additional furnaces for the woodshop and Bay2 of the barn. Both were done "to spec", so I anticipate no problems.