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Tony
10-03-2011, 10:19 AM
I've been putting up for way too long with a concrete floor in the
shop that just keeps generating dust. its become intolerable. I've
already moved 1/2 the shop into the other half and plan to get started
asap.

thing is, am not sure which way to go.

I'm considering using a self-leveling epoxy/cement/god-knows-what
called Mapei Ultraplan 1

http://www.mapei.it/referenze/Multimedia/Ultraplan1_TD_EA.pdf

technically its not a finished floor -- its meant to be a level foundation
for carpet / wood / tile -- but I'm wondering if this isn't a marketing gimmick?

its rated to 4500 psi after 28 days.

thats concrete to me.

has anyone ever tried anything similar?

I've considered sealants and paints but i think this concrete just stinks
and will break easy if i drop a heavy hammer for example. by break i mean
easily pulverize into powder.

Tony

Evan
10-03-2011, 11:54 AM
"its rated to 4500 psi after 28 days."

Is that how long it takes to harden completely? Sounds like it might stink for a very long time. I would try to find somebody that has actually used it to ask about the product.

SGW
10-03-2011, 12:07 PM
It sounds like quite a job to put it on. Whether it would stand up to use and not flake off, who knows. If you made it 1/2" thick, I would think that would be pretty durable. BUT, surface prep is everything, and you would certainly want to take the time to do the surface prep correctly. The data sheet talks about sandblasting or shotpeening the concrete and priming with a special primer prior to installation of the coating. At the very least I think I would brush thoroughly with a stiff-bristle brush, vacuum well, and use the special primer.

Have you thought of using some kind of floor covering like asphalt tile? Out of sight, out of mind...

Or put down a vapor barrier and install a hardwood floor.

uncle pete
10-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Is your current floor level? Or are you thinking of buying this product to both level and seal the concrete? Generally products like this get really expensive once a large volume is needed. If your concrete is ok for level then they make lots of different interlocking tiles in a variety of materials and made specificlly for aplications like this. These aren't exactly cheap either but they are one more option.

Pete

SGW
10-03-2011, 12:24 PM
Pete has an interesting idea: that interlocking floor mat like this: http://www.dri-dek.com/
It would cost you something to cover an entire floor with the stuff, but you would end up with a floor more comfortable to stand and work on than concrete. You would probably want to apply some kind of sealer to the concrete first, but the mat would then protect it from abrasion so it would stay put and not wear off.

john b
10-03-2011, 12:36 PM
If your concrete is level you can probably get by with a concrete densifier. Quick and easy to apply. john b

Tony
10-03-2011, 01:04 PM
all in all i'm looking at about 700 square feet. a little more than half of
that is shop space so i'll be dropping things and rolling heavy stuff.

Evan, spec sheet says something like 1000 psi in 3-4 hours full cure 4500 in
28 days. its supposed to not shrink.

i'm afraid anything like a sealant or paint will simply flake off with time as
I drop things, etc. i often move my heavy workbench out from way from
the wall for larger projects. that gets dragged pretty hard.

but no forklifts. :)

yes the floor is reasonably level.. the concrete is finished more like a new
sidewalk than a smooth floor. wooden float? i dont think it was brushed.

anyway i can see the smoothed over small aggregate at the top as the
concrete has been wearing away.

and yes, for the self-leveling stuff i'm looking at spending about $1k to put
down 1/4" thick.

Chris S.
10-03-2011, 01:11 PM
Yes, I realize that a wood floor introduces issues with keeping machines leveled but if I ever get the energy up to do it that's the way I'm going. I don't give a damn if its CDX plywood or yellow pine tongue & groove planking, there's nothing more painful than seeing your hard work or ground steel tooling heading toward concrete via gravity feed. ;)

Scottike
10-03-2011, 01:41 PM
I may be wrong here, but it sounds like your slab froze in the first 48 hrs or so after it was poured.
That will cause the "finish" layer on top to crack, chip, and basically peel away from the underlying slab, which may still be good - depending on how hard the freeze was.
The only real solution would be to scarify the surface down to good concrete and then apply a finish material (epoxy, leveling cement, etc.) that could be applied thick enough to bring the floor level back.
If you just apply a finish/sealer coat of something on top, it's still relying on the weak "finish layer" for the bond to the underlying slab, which you already know is giving way.
That being said, just an epoxy sealer or floor paint would go a long ways towards minimizing the problem, but would probably have to be touched up from time to time, which may be more difficult to do with some of the other solutions you've been considering/presented.

uncle pete
10-03-2011, 01:48 PM
Simple, Fairly cheap, Fast And easy? A 3/4" layer of G1S plwood. Easy on dropped tools and your feet.

Pete

Tony
10-03-2011, 02:01 PM
Scott,
Thats very likely.. I wasn't around when they poured this floor, my old man
did quite a few years ago.. but I think one of three things happened:

1. It froze, like you said. This garage didn't have doors on it till I put them in.
2. They did it in the summer, poured the whole 700 ft.. and it was drying too
fast to finish in time so they wet it. Ie killing the finish layer.
3. they just got a bad mix.

rohart
10-03-2011, 05:17 PM
I used a self-levelling compound - I think it had some acrylic in it - on a small 10x10 cellar room that had a 2 inch dip in the middle.

I didn't use enough. I think that if I'd poured enough to give me a 1 inch depth at the edges, I would have been pleased. The compound, while being of a fairly fine aggregate itself, clumped at the edges, so where the thickness of the compound tapered off it seemed to become lumpy.

If I did a similar job again, I would not plan to for a thickness of less than 1 inch. I think Scotike's analysis seems good.

The thing I like about the interlocking tiles is you can rip them up if it's no good. You lose cash, not your floor. If you like it, pull 'em up and stick 'em down again, one by one.

Chris S.
10-03-2011, 07:07 PM
Simple, Fairly cheap, Fast And easy? A 3/4" layer of G1S plwood. Easy on dropped tools and your feet.

Pete

Now there's a thought. It's even cheaper than CDX. Then there's that stuff in my storage shed. The floor is some kind of rugged pressboard.

I wonder, is there a pressure treated grade of plywoods?

tlfamm
10-03-2011, 07:17 PM
You might find more ideas in this thread:


http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=44180

boslab
10-03-2011, 07:23 PM
self levellers are the way to go! you wont look back.
what they dont tell you is you can add pigment to the screed to get a coloured cement layer, so you can have green or pink or whatever, very handy buff is nice
its not that difficult to hand screed a floor, level with a nice long ali darby, just build little molehills in a grid and 6' level, let them go off a bit, pour the screed on the floor and level with the darby, not difficult. a bit of pva helps, there are plenty of floor sealers available too
mark

DFMiller
10-03-2011, 07:38 PM
I can't figure out whether we need a translation from UK English to Dominion English, or from concrete slinger to metal worker.
I have been around a few metres on concrete in my day. ;-)
Could you please elaborate more Mark?

Thanks
Dave

JoeLee
10-03-2011, 08:37 PM
The guy down the street from me put some kind of stuff like your talking about on his basement floor and after about 6 months it started to flake and crack. When he rolled a steel wheeled dolly across it with about 600 lbs of machine on it the wheels left a crack trail, not to mention all the pock marks from dropping stuff on it. Might be OK for your garage provided all you do is park the car in it. I would try asphalt floor tiles????? easy to put down and if in the future you mess one up just replace the tile. I put these down in my wood shop. I was tempted to do the entire shop but my concrete floor is high polished and sealed so no dust problem when sweeping.

JL.................

914Wilhelm
10-03-2011, 08:58 PM
http://garagejournal.com/forum/

Just follow this link and look at the flooring link. You'll see a bunch of collected experience regarding floors.

I currently have a wood floor in my shop and hate it. Catches on fire when I weld, hard to sweep. Only good thing about wood is i can screw setups down to it. Of course i could screw the same setups down to a sacrificial piece of plywood or two. The epoxies look good for a while than get scraped or have hot tire pick up problems. Asphalt tile and the plastic click together stuff stink when they get burnt and oil and dirt are hard to clean. I'm thinking when I do my floor it's going to be porcelain tile. They are pretty tough and really not that hard to replace if one gets broke. I've rolled my 1000 pound table saw (equipped with 3/4" wide steel wheels) though my house over the porcelain tiles protected only by a sheet of cardboard and had no damage.

Gravy
10-03-2011, 09:06 PM
I'd be REALLY skeptical about a 1/2" (or even 2") layer of any kind of cement-based compound holding up under the stated conditions. If the substrate isn't sound and the bond isn't good, it's going to shatter under the load of machine tools. Then you will have a REAL mess on your hands.

I'd vote for sacrificial paint or good plywood.

darryl
10-03-2011, 09:18 PM
I've walked across an epoxy-leveled floor- you can feel the flatness. It sure looked tough, and I have no doubt it is. It also feels very hard. I don't know how it would compare to the bare concrete to walk on for hours, but I doubt it would be much less tiresome. The rubber mat is definitely less tiresome. You might inquire about rubber mat- a place I found locally makes it in-house, and will make it up to 12 ft wide. I don't know if they limit the length per piece, but even it it's 12 ft also, that's a pretty good size for a no-gap floor covering. They were cutting pieces to 4x6 ft the day I was there, and asking $40 for them. That works out to $240 for the 12x12 area, but it would probably be less for the full piece.

My procedure would be to paint the floor with a reasonably suitable barrier coat, then lay the rubber in as large of pieces as I could handle. If it's not curled it would be fairly easy to use a seam filler and end up with effectively one large piece.

It's not as easy to sweep as concrete- painted concrete is easier still, and epoxy would likely be the easiest to sweep up. If you went with self-leveling epoxy it will be a very nice floor, but still hard and cold. I think that 1/4 inch is enough thickness in the thinnest spots, but less than that I think would give problems over time. Maybe not, but all it would take is for the layer to lift off the concrete- then you'll eventually get a large chunk cracking out, and it will only get worse. It will be like a blister that you eventually break, then nurse for weeks till it heals- only difference is the floor will not heal.

I did a portion of my basement shop floor with floor paint, and it's held up really well. I didn't consider any kind of treatment for the rest of it, but lately I have laid some rubber mat. I wish now that the whole floor was mat. I've gotten used to stepping up the half inch from the bare floor, but if I knew I was going to leave it in pieces as it is now, I'd glue some wedged strips to the floor up to the edges of the rubber mat.

J Tiers
10-03-2011, 10:30 PM
Dusty concrete?

it's a SHOP..... why isn't the floor oily enough to "lay" that dust?

I used a concrete material to level a floor in the basement, part of which is expanded shop area. We had had the floor trenched for pipe replacement, and it mostly wasn't filled up flat, while some areas were way proud, and I had to chisel them down.

Some spots filled were as thin as 1/16", but it is still holding up in it's second year, despite having machines dragged over it.

Quickcrete Concrete Resurfacer is what I used. Seems to have worked well.

BudB
10-03-2011, 10:31 PM
I might suggest a product I have used in the past both on older small applications and on fresh 100,000 sq ft factory floors. It is a 1930's water clear product called "Ashford formula" and is a sodium silicate formula. Repaces sealer on fresh concrete. Penetrates up to 1/3 of an inch. Hardens and densifies. With a good steel trowel job the concrete will shine like glass with wear. Squegezee in.....rinse ....After 15 years of wear no problems and no dust. Older concrete needs to be very clean of oils and apply at double strength. There are dealers thoughout the country. Good luck.

Bond
10-03-2011, 10:53 PM
I've been putting up for way too long with a concrete floor in the
shop that just keeps generating dust. its become intolerable. I've
already moved 1/2 the shop into the other half and plan to get started
asap.

thing is, am not sure which way to go.

I'm considering using a self-leveling epoxy/cement/god-knows-what
called Mapei Ultraplan 1

http://www.mapei.it/referenze/Multimedia/Ultraplan1_TD_EA.pdf

technically its not a finished floor -- its meant to be a level foundation
for carpet / wood / tile -- but I'm wondering if this isn't a marketing gimmick?

its rated to 4500 psi after 28 days.

thats concrete to me.

has anyone ever tried anything similar?

I've considered sealants and paints but i think this concrete just stinks
and will break easy if i drop a heavy hammer for example. by break i mean
easily pulverize into powder.

Tony
If its what I think it is (and I am shur it is) it hold up exelent. It was put down on a track that as 1000lb carts run on it all day.It was put down in the late 80s and it still there.

Evan
10-04-2011, 01:11 AM
I wonder, is there a pressure treated grade of plywoods?

Yes there is. I have a couple of 3/4" 5x8 ft pieces for my observatory floor. They cost about $30 each.

914Wilhelm
10-04-2011, 01:56 AM
"Originally Posted by Chris
I wonder, is there a pressure treated grade of plywoods?

Yes there is. I have a couple of 3/4" 5x8 ft pieces for my observatory floor. They cost about $30 each."


None that I would want to walk on or sweep. The stuff I have seen is splintery with lots of surface cracks in it. Who knows what your breathing all the time working with this versus what gets released when hot slag causes it to smoke.

Evan
10-04-2011, 07:01 AM
I will take a picture later. It is very good grade material. With a coat of paint it will be fine.

914Wilhelm
10-04-2011, 07:25 AM
Evan!
Why aren't you asleep instead of on the computer? it's 4am for goodness sakes!
Wilhelm

J Tiers
10-04-2011, 08:29 AM
The sodium silicate (water glass) formula sounds like the real deal..... I think my floor must have been treated with something similar, that or it was a really "fat" mix..... it's rather dense and hard, and shines up with wear as stated.

Chris S.
10-04-2011, 09:00 AM
Yes there is. I have a couple of 3/4" 5x8 ft pieces for my observatory floor. They cost about $30 each.

Thanks Evan. Is there a type designation like "CDX-P"?

Evan
10-04-2011, 01:05 PM
This is the plywood.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/plytreated.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics9/plytreated2.jpg

Evan
10-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Why aren't you asleep instead of on the computer? it's 4am for goodness sakes!

That's late rising for me. Just last month my sleep disorder was finally diagnosed. I have narcolepsy which means that my sleep center is disconnected and I have no regular sleep cycle. I can't sleep more than a couple of hours straight and that can be at any time of day or night. Contrary to popular misinformation it does not mean that I suddenly fall asleep without warning or collapse to the ground. That can happen in some cases but is very rare. The narcolepsy is also the most likely cause of my Fibromyalgia.

Tony
10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
he was going to write another paragraph but he fell asleep.

:) :)

total tangent but the oddest thing has been happening (as I age?)..
the less sleep I get the more alert/active my brain seems to be. I
mean i feel like absolute poop (physically) but the lights are on bright.

if i get what used to be a "good nights sleep" i feel sluggish (mentally)
all day.

maybe its all the dust from the bad concrete floor.

JoeLee
10-04-2011, 04:45 PM
This is what I put down in my wood shop. It came out so nice I was tempted to do my whole shop floor like this. I don't think it cost me more than $100 to do this area, about 18 x 10 ft.

JL....................

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Table%20Saw%20Fence/Image006.jpg

Chris S.
10-04-2011, 05:22 PM
Evan, thanks for the pic and the info.

Chris

Chris S.
10-04-2011, 06:35 PM
[QUOTE=JoeLee]This is what I put down in my wood shop. It came out so nice I was tempted to do my whole shop floor like this. I don't think it cost me more than $100 to do this area, about 18 x 10 ft.

JL....................

Yeah, that's a heck of a lot better than concrete. Most tools striking that will survive too! ;)

Chris