PDA

View Full Version : OT- Smart Meters and Exposure



rws
10-11-2011, 09:47 AM
I know there was a thread regarding this a while back. My take on the end of the thread was, if you don't have one of the "collector" meters, meaning the one that transmits the entire areas info, you were fairly safe.

Well we (my wife mostly) have come across some other info that makes even a single meter scary. Since I am not an electrical guru by any means, I trust the opinion of those on this forum that are much more learned in this stuff. I am listing a few links for revue. I would really appreciate some input.

http://sagereports.com/smart-meter-rf/

http://ndttesting.net/rf-radiation-pulses-on-pge-smart-meters/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRejDxBE6OE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youaretheanswer.ca/radiation-sources/smartmeters/

We are contacting our power company and asking if we can have the meter relocated away from our house. I see no reason it HAS to be attached to the dwelling, why not on the service pole?

macona
10-11-2011, 12:26 PM
First link is interesting, though I cant see how a crib would ever be 11" away from a meter.

The last 3 links are garbage.

aboard_epsilon
10-11-2011, 12:32 PM
im not for smart meters but ...same guy says its killing his shrubs ..

move through the video ..and you can see its white fly doing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsuP_WBBr2c&feature=related

that meter of his is enough to scare anyone ****less ..

all the best.markj

EddyCurr
10-11-2011, 01:41 PM
First link is interesting, though I can't see how a crib would ever be 11" away
from a meter.From the report in the first link


Assessment of Radiofrequency Microwave Radiation Emissions
from Smart Meters (http://sagereports.com/smart-meter-rf/)
Sage Associates January 1, 2011

"RF levels have been calculated at distances of 11” (to represent a
nursery or bedroom with a crib or bed against a wall opposite one or
more meters); and at 28” (to represent a kitchen work space with one
or more meters installed on the kitchen wall)."

The YouTube video in the third link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRejDxBE6OE) displays a meter mounted outside a
residential bedroom. Beginning at 1:46, the video shows high readings
being taken within the room.


The last 3 links are garbage.On what grounds?

.

EddyCurr
10-11-2011, 01:51 PM
that meter of his is enough to scare anyone It is one of Gigahertz Solutions' HF 35C series (http://www.gigahertz-solutions.com/en/Online-Shop/Measurement/High-Frequency/Instruments.html#pd930-083) of high frequency analyzers
fitted with an optional ultra broad band (UBB) antenna.

The woman in the previous video (http://ndttesting.net/rf-radiation-pulses-on-pge-smart-meters/) is using a Gigahertz HF analyzer, too.

.

kendall
10-11-2011, 01:58 PM
First link is interesting, though I cant see how a crib would ever be 11" away from a meter.

The last 3 links are garbage.

Easily, typical houses are built with either 2x4 or since energy crunch days most often 2x6 walls, 1/2" drywall inside, 1/2 inch sheathing, then 1/2 inch for siding, gives you 5 inch for a 2x5 wall, and 7 inches for a 2x6, (1.5x3.5 and 1.5 x 5.5 actual) Most meter boxes are 3 inches thick.

Interesting side note, many houses built in the early 80s to early 90s, had from inside to out, 1/2" inch drywall, 2x6 studs with fiberglass insulation, 1/2 or 1 inch foam insulation board, then vinyl siding. Which means that nearly any house built during that period can be entered through a side wall with a utility knife, or at most a couple well placed kicks. (starting in the late 80s it became more common to sheath the entire ground floor at least with 1/2 inch OSB.) Part of the reason I like my old balloon construction house with actual dimension lumber

Evan
10-11-2011, 02:16 PM
"On what grounds?"


On the grounds of extreme nonsense represented as science.

Keep in mind that if you think something will make you sick then it most certainly will. Your symptoms may be very real too although the source is your own mind. It's the reverse of the "placebo effect" which is well known to be a powerful confounding factor when studying the efficacy of drugs.

There are reasons to be concerned about devices that emit radiation in the 1 to 3 ghz range but they aren't as described on the huge number of "smart meters are cooking my brain" web sites.

There are some indications of subtle effects that have nothing to do with thermal radiation. The signal from a smart meter or cell phone isn't powerful enough to cause thermal effects regardless of how close it is to your body.

A recent high quality prospective study covering a period of 13 years has shown a strong and direct correlation between maternal exposure while pregnant to electromagnetic fields and the incidence of asthma in the children of those mothers. The effect is very large with the highest level of exposure correlated with a 300% increase of the incidence of asthma compared to the lowest levels of household exposure.

That study did not measure smart meters but rather the low frequency fields generated by devices such as blender motors.

There are valid questions that deserve further study. Health Canada just took the the step of recommending that children be limited from exposure to EMF including cell phones in particular. Health Canada is very conservative and their decisions are based on science, not hysteria.

macona
10-11-2011, 02:26 PM
Easily, typical houses are built with either 2x4 or since energy crunch days most often 2x6 walls, 1/2" drywall inside, 1/2 inch sheathing, then 1/2 inch for siding, gives you 5 inch for a 2x5 wall, and 7 inches for a 2x6, (1.5x3.5 and 1.5 x 5.5 actual) Most meter boxes are 3 inches thick.


Meter base, which is steel, plus a layer of siding under that, then sheeting, insulation, and then a layer of sheet rock. Anyone that has a wi-fi network in their home will tell you how much a single wall can attenuate a signal. There is nothing in the paper to compensate for even average construction.

Plus a meter base us usually about 5-6' above grade. How many cribs have their deck at that height?

There are quite a few absurd assumptions in that paper. Like people manually reading the meter having their eyes "mere inches" from the antenna. Guess those people are very near sighted and forgot their glasses!

EddyCurr
10-11-2011, 02:27 PM
I know there was a thread regarding this a while back.This one?


Smart Meters .... (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=49206) 2011.08.02

.

Paul Alciatore
10-11-2011, 02:28 PM
Cell phones are only 0 inches from your head.

There is RF radiation everywhere. Switching power supplies are in everything because they are more efficient. Do they radiate RF radiation? Yes they do. But so does a standard light switch when you turn it on or off. So do motors with brushes. So do dishwashers, radio receivers, TVs, and almost anything electronic or electrical. You are continuously bathed in RF radiation and can't get away from it. Smart meters are only a small drop in a big bucket. It is our modern world and you can't escape it.

Overall we are probably a lot better off with all these RF emitting devices. And if you spend a day at the beach without sun blocker you will get thousands of times more damaging radiation than you will get from a smart meter outside your house in a year.

Forestgnome
10-11-2011, 02:31 PM
I hate smart meters because of the implication that one day they'll save energy by controlling your behaviour. The new meters have a home area network designed to control your household appliances (Zigbee at around 2.4ghz). I expect at some point you won't have a choice as to whether or not the power company decides how and when you'll utilize "their" electricity. They have the capability to, so why wouldn't they in the name of "saving the planet"? Beyond that, I believe they are safe in regards to health hazards. My work involves rf sources, and I've been bombarded by more intense rf fields than that for many years. The rf output power of smart meters is equivalent to that of cordless phones, baby monitors, and other 900 mhz devices as regulated by the FCC, .5 to 1watt, depending on configuration. They just installed a smart meter on my house, and now I'm dealing with interference on my baby monitor. The power company states that the meters only report every four hours, but actually they relay the reporting from other houses in the network, so mine's going every 30 seconds or so. I've watched it on my spectrum analyzer. It pops and clicks on my baby monitor because they use frequency hopping that constantly moves across the spectrum. Big brother is here!

Evan
10-11-2011, 02:48 PM
"And if you spend a day at the beach without sun blocker you will get thousands of times more damaging radiation than you will get from a smart meter outside your house in a year."

Different spectrum entirely and that makes a big difference. We evolved to deal with sunlight. Emf is not something we are naturally exposed to at anything resembling the levels we currently enjoy. I am of the opinion that there must be some effects but they are probably not immediate and are likely very subtle.

The study showing strong correlations to asthma are especially interesting because the rate of asthma has exploded over the same period that the use of in home RF devices has increased dramatically. It may not be a coincidence.

While adding one more device to the mix may not be all that significant it is one device that is involuntary and on my own house and property. It is up to me what radiates on my property or at least it should be.

mike os
10-11-2011, 02:55 PM
file with mobile phones, wifi, & other bull**** that "will kill you "

EddyCurr
10-11-2011, 03:28 PM
"On what grounds?"

On the grounds of extreme nonsense represented as science.The two videos seemed restrained to me - just a couple of people using
HF analyzers to get a sense of the signal strength and frequency
emitted by residential meters. Not much in the way of hysterics.
The third site as a whole has a more strident tone - the Smart Meter
introduction at the top is reasonable enough.


Health Canada just took the the step of recommending that children be
limited from exposure to EMF including cell phones in particular. Health Canada
is very conservative and their decisions are based on science, not hysteria.Their recent warning is directed to ALL cell phone users


Health Canada Offers Practical Advice on Safe Cell Phone Use (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/_2011/2011_131-eng.php) 2011.10.04

"Health Canada reminds cell phone users that they can take practical
measures to reduce RF exposure. The department also encourages parents
to reduce their children's RF exposure from cell phones since children are
typically more sensitive to a variety of environmental agents."

CBC offered an analysis after the announcement 'Cellphones and health:
How Canada's precautions compare' (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/05/f-cellphones-youth-world.html) pointing out there is much that
remains unknown.

I don't have a foot in either camp for the time being.

I applaud the concept of giving consumers a usage gauge in one or more
locations through out the home to see how their behavior affects electrical
consumption with the expectation that they might act to spread out/lessen
their demand. There is a growing problem between demand and supply in
North America - behavior modification could extend the horizon for production
and distribution issues to be dealt with.

However, I was unaware that the utilities were deploying the kind of RF
infrastructure discussed here.

Even traffic signs in my community are broadcasting strong signals along
roadsides. These Ver-Mac display signs have microwave transmitters
that project a signal perhaps a mile down an unobstructed roadway.
Look for the small horizontal soup can with the translucent dome mounted
on the bottom left side of the display.

There are MANY of these trailers signs along roads in my community and
there is a growing number of fixed signs of similar design. Most of them do
not display messages, yet they continue to project RF. To what end?
The relevance to this thread is that these signs are yet another addition
to RF in the environment.


http://www.slalom4me.com/imaged_a01/jpg/other/vms_trailer/2009.05.19_vermac_trailer_02.jpg

http://www.slalom4me.com/imaged_a01/jpg/other/vms_trailer/2009.05.19_vermac_trailer_05.jpg

.

macona
10-11-2011, 03:41 PM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cell_phones.png

macona
10-11-2011, 03:59 PM
There are MANY of these trailers signs along roads in my community and
there is a growing number of fixed signs of similar design. Most of them do
not display messages, yet they continue to project RF. To what end?
The relevance to this thread is that these signs are yet another addition
to RF in the environment.


.


Looks like that is part of the optional Jamlogic system that allows the trailers to be updated remotely for different situations. So basically its a bi-directional microwave link.

KIMFAB
10-11-2011, 04:17 PM
I have also noticed this. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

2ManyHobbies
10-11-2011, 04:31 PM
The future of smart meters is the marketing they are going to get by selling your usage information and the ability to bill for peak usage.

Does your usage drop Tu-Th each week? You get advertising about security systems, house sitting, and pet sitting while you travel.
Does your usage top your neighbors in the summer? You get advertising about more efficient air conditioning and appliances.
It isn't any great leap to look at your data to determine when you shower in the morning, when you do laundry, what time you cook dinner, and when you go to bed. Door-door sales people and delivery companies would love to have this information.

As far as peak usage? Above some bare minimum, you will get a surcharge between 2p and 8p in the summer. Start welding at night...

Mcgyver
10-11-2011, 04:51 PM
"On what grounds?"
Health Canada is very conservative and their decisions are based on science or politics or lobbying or ......

aboard_epsilon
10-11-2011, 04:59 PM
The amount of wind turbines they have planned here .
it wouldn't surprise me in the near future, if they offer electricity cheap whilst the wind is blowing ..expensive when not.

likewise with solar activity ..once they have a a few million of us on it.

So what they need to do now, is invent a storage heater that can store heat for a couple of months ....then you could really call it smart ..charging up storage heaters with cheap electricity whilst the wind blows ..and releasing it when it's cold.

So they need to build houses with giant heat soaks below them .

bet you could pump loads of hot water down an old cold mine ..and it would be very well insulated.

but ..that's what i cant work out about the governments of this world ..

it's all about getting it from wind and solar ..there is no one looking into storing the power for future use months away.

that could be made to work ..and cheap.

all the best.markj

topct
10-11-2011, 05:15 PM
So what they need to do now, is invent a storage heater that can store heat for a couple of months ....then you could really call it smart ..charging up storage heaters with cheap electricity whilst the wind blows ..and releasing it when it's cold.

It's been invented, we are standing on it. A couple of months, no problem.

macona
10-11-2011, 06:02 PM
http://gizmodo.com/5848411/the-worlds-first-solar-plant-to-generate-electricity-even-at-night

Evan
10-11-2011, 08:00 PM
My main issue with the smart meters is the transmitter. I don't want it on my property. It would be no different if they installed a light bulb that was on 24/7. Either one has the certain potential to interfere with my equipment and activities. Because of the inverse square law even just moving it to the drop on the pole would be enough to insure that it wouldn't be a problem.

It's my house and my land and there is no legislation that gives anybody the specific right to install a radiating device on my property. The provincial law called "The Clean Air Act" does not specify or mandate RF devices as a part of the smart meter system. The reason it doesn't is because the province has no jurisdiction in the matter.

Radio transmitters are a strictly federal responsiblity and The Radio Act, which is enforced by the CRTC and in part by Industry Canada is entirely silent on the matter. There is no enabling legislation that gives authority for any entity to install a radiating device on my land. I am perfectly willing to let them install a Smart Meter but not the transmitter which is a separate module. They can even use my telephone line to report readings.

The problem with enforcing my rights in the matter is the cost of taking it to court. However, the federal Radio Act also mandates that such unlicensed devices operating in the 900 mhz band may not cause interference to licensed users and must accept all interference from licensed users.

That means that if I get my Ham ticket I can operate on 900 mhz with impunity and interfere all I want with not just the meter on my house but any other meters anywhere.

It also means that I can takes steps to minimize interference from the meter without repercussion from the Feds. Because the device must accept interference the policy is that interference complaints on such equipment will not be investigated. If I shield it they also have no legal recourse.

The problem there is they may decide to take illegal recourse. Then it is my problem to show that in court. Meanwhile, I might not have power.

BC Hydro is taking the attitude that this is how it will be done, period. They will not budge no matter what the complaint or argument. It will take some big bucks and a court case that will likely go to the Supreme Court to wipe the smug attitude off their "face". I don't see that happening.

I have fought similar battles in the past against other parties that even lawyers won't touch and I have won. We shall see where this winds up.

aboard_epsilon
10-11-2011, 08:04 PM
if you dont want the radiation from them ..just stick a wire cage over them ..and take it off when you go out ...wouldnt wire mesh behind them stop it penetrating walls.

all the best.markj

Forestgnome
10-11-2011, 08:56 PM
My main issue with the smart meters is the transmitter. I don't want it on my property. It would be no different if they installed a light bulb that was on 24/7. Either one has the certain potential to interfere with my equipment and activities. Because of the inverse square law even just moving it to the drop on the pole would be enough to insure that it wouldn't be a problem.

It's my house and my land and there is no legislation that gives anybody the specific right to install a radiating device on my property. The provincial law called "The Clean Air Act" does not specify or mandate RF devices as a part of the smart meter system. The reason it doesn't is because the province has no jurisdiction in the matter.

Radio transmitters are a strictly federal responsiblity and The Radio Act, which is enforced by the CRTC and in part by Industry Canada is entirely silent on the matter. There is no enabling legislation that gives authority for any entity to install a radiating device on my land. I am perfectly willing to let them install a Smart Meter but not the transmitter which is a separate module. They can even use my telephone line to report readings.

The problem with enforcing my rights in the matter is the cost of taking it to court. However, the federal Radio Act also mandates that such unlicensed devices operating in the 900 mhz band may not cause interference to licensed users and must accept all interference from licensed users.

That means that if I get my Ham ticket I can operate on 900 mhz with impunity and interfere all I want with not just the meter on my house but any other meters anywhere.

It also means that I can takes steps to minimize interference from the meter without repercussion from the Feds. Because the device must accept interference the policy is that interference complaints on such equipment will not be investigated. If I shield it they also have no legal recourse.

The problem there is they may decide to take illegal recourse. Then it is my problem to show that in court. Meanwhile, I might not have power.

BC Hydro is taking the attitude that this is how it will be done, period. They will not budge no matter what the complaint or argument. It will take some big bucks and a court case that will likely go to the Supreme Court to wipe the smug attitude off their "face". I don't see that happening.

I have fought similar battles in the past against other parties that even lawyers won't touch and I have won. We shall see where this winds up.
As far as the FCC goes, the unlicensed 900mhz band was intended for various low power personal devices with the assumption that those devices in the neighbor's house would be at a distance that doesn't interfere with your devices. When the utility company installs these meters on everyone's house, it violates the intention of the unlicensed band. Like you said Evan, you didn't choose to have this in your house, but try to fight it and you'll run into roadblocks and dismissals. I did file an interference complaint with the FCC, but don't expect it to go anywhere. The final outcome of all this will be that the utility companys will muscle out all users of 900mhz devices, who will have to move to 2.4ghz devices to avoid interference out of their own pockets.

aboard_epsilon
10-11-2011, 09:23 PM
there you go

just get some tin foil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL2JQ0FbgvU&feature=related

and problem solved

all the best.markj

jrude
10-11-2011, 10:23 PM
The Report includes computer modeling of the range of possible smart meter RF levels that are occurring in the typical installation and operation of a single smart meter, and also multiple meters in California.

First paragraph in the first link states (above) that the report is based on computer models. No actual measurements taken. The report is all speculation wrapped in a fancy document to scare those who believe someone is out to get them.

That being said, I don't really like smart meters either, and I don't want one on my house.

That also being said, I am an engineer and I work for a company that makes smart meters, and I design them for a living. There is no way the smart meters which I have designed do any type of data acquisition with regards to user historical data. If there was, I would have been the guy to design it in, and I never have, and I wouldn't want to have designed that in anyway.

Regarding the energy measurements while standing in your driveway, how do you know 100% of the signal is from the meter? You don't. The only way to know how much comes out of the meter itself is to isolate it in an anechoic chamber and test the meter by itself.

Evan
10-11-2011, 11:06 PM
The smart meters being installed here are the Itron OpenWay. They have sufficient flash ram to store 500 days of history at 15 minute sampling intervals.

I will be measuring the signal strength and the reporting interval. Since my neighbours are a good distance away and I have no 900 mhz devices the reading I get should be fairly accurate.

Old Time
10-12-2011, 02:28 AM
Interesting note, PG&E installed the new smart meter. I noticed it and just went on with life. One day I was working in the shop with the overhead door open. The PG&E pickup pulls in the driveway, the driver keeps looking down, then driving forward. I honestly thought he was going to drive into the shop. He finally stopped with the front bumper actually in the shop, looked down and made a note or entered something on a computer in the pickup. He gave me a big smile and backed out. The next month I was in the house when he showed up, he had to nearly touch the shop door with his front bumper before he got a reading. The so-called smart meter was about twenty feet away. From this I can't believe the signal is that strong. Just my observation.

rws
10-12-2011, 09:10 AM
VooDoo or not, this is an intrusion on people's lives. Yes, there has been speculation about the cancer risk for living under high tension power lines, cell phones, and everything else. The FCC and our Govt says it all falls within their guidelines as being safe. Well sorry, I don't trust any Govt. They will manipulate their guidelines to suit their needs. Any extra or unnecessary exposure, not brought on by myself, is a violation to me.

The first thing the power companies will do with this data is start charging for "peek" usage. They will determine what "peek" is, then charge a premium for that time. Your bill will become a nightmare.

They can and will turn your power off if they want, buy a simple signal.

This is all part of the UN Agenda 21 that is being adopted throughout this country. It's a power grab by our Govt, to control.

Forestgnome
10-12-2011, 10:20 AM
The one installed on my house is this one:
http://www.silverspringnet.com/pdfs/SilverSpring-Datasheet-Communications-Modules.pdf
That's the communications module. Basically a wi-fi network at 900mhz. The service disconnect section also has memory:
This information is provided to a microcontroller for processing of
energy accumulation, demand, time-of-use, and load profile billing information and for display
on a liquid crystal display. A non-volatile data-flash memory device is employed for retention
of programming and billing information when power is absent. All data is stored within ANSI
C.12.19 tables

Evan
10-12-2011, 11:07 AM
From this I can't believe the signal is that strong. Just my observation.

Yours isn't very strong. It isn't expected to communicate very far, just as far as the meter reader. The wireless meters that are being installed here need to transmit as far as a kilometre, a little over half a mile. It is an entirely different system with the meters all being part of a mesh network. Each meter has a transmitter with a peak output of 2 watts which is about 4 to 5 times stronger than an average Wi-fi signal from a router.

Each meter can act as a forwarding point for other meters if a meter can't get through to the collection point directly. The signal can be relayed up to five times to reach the aggregator. The aggregator is connected to the Wide Area Network (WAN) by whatever means are appropriate and available in the area such as cable or telephone.

The meters use frequency hopping to transmit data. This means they rapidly change frequencies across the entire 900 mhz band thereby insuring that they will interfere with any and all other devices on the band. The reason for this is because the meters are competing with numerous other devices. They aren't using true spread spectrum protocol since the device repeats the entire transmission each time it changes frequency. It isn't about security, it's about making sure it can get through past all the other legal users of the band. The result is that the meters make the band unusable for all other devices.

Those devices range from baby monitors to remote controls to wireless security cameras and other license free communications systems. The manufacturers have decided to use the 900 mhz band because it reduces cost since no licensing is required. The 900 mhz band is intended for multiple shared users for low power devices that can coexist happily. The meters violate the intent of the law but not the word. They will drive all other users from the band and make a lot of expensive equipment useless. Because the band is for unlicensed devices interference complaints are not entertained by the FCC or the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Television Commission).

It is a case of corporate greed and selfishness. There is a band designated specifically for AMR (Automatic Remote Metering) but it is licensed so it costs a dollar or two per license. It is also an incredibly inefficient use of the bandwidth since the data collected from 500 meters can be relayed by the aggregator over a single dial up connection.

It all about control, not just time of use billing. If time of use billing were the main justification then a simple tap to your phone line with one report per month would be sufficient. That isn't what they want. The power company wants the ability to have near real time control of your power usage.

They don't intend to stop at the meter. The plan includes complete control of the main appliances in the home via an integrated power gateway device. This is a separate device that communicates either via the meter or via its own radio connection which allows direct control of so called "smart appliances".

jim davies
06-10-2012, 02:48 PM
I know it's an old thread, but it's interesting that the Brits see problems with their version of big brother snooping:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2156648/Government-plans-install-smart-meters-homes-leave-open-cyber-attack.html