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View Full Version : Old Bailey No 7 Plane..... HELP !



JoeLee
10-23-2011, 07:12 PM
I decided to pull this old plane out from under the bench and fix it up a bit. It's an old Bailey No. 7. I'm wondering if anyone knows what the correct angle should be for the iron??? My guess is 25 deg, + or - a few. As it stands..... the angle is about 30 deg. and very rounded. You know how it goes when the old timers used to hone them up on the old oil stone, it's badly out of square as well, but I can straighten all that out. Also.......... for this plane does the bevel face up or down??? I've seen it both ways depending on the type of plane it is. With the angle of the iron at 30 deg. the bevel can only face up if I face it down it won't come through the mouth. I doubt changing the angle 5 deg will make a difference there but though I would ask. Lastly...... does any one know if the holder is original for this plane?? It looks to be either chromed or nickeled an the raised letters STANLEY has an orange back ground. It just looks like it should be on a newer plane but I've seen a lot of these No. 7's with the same holder so maybe it is original. Any one date this??

TNX..............

JL.....................
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Bailey%20No%207%20Plane/Image002.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Bailey%20No%207%20Plane/Image004.jpg

lynnl
10-23-2011, 07:25 PM
The bevel goes down. The chip breaker, as shown in the picture, is on the wrong side of the iron.

As to the grind angle, it will depend on what wood(s) it's intended to be used for. Highly figured/grainy wood will do better with a less acute angle. Other than that consideration, probably 25 or 30deg either would be ok ...or somewhere in between.

(added)
When I first made my comments above, I was thinking about block planes as being the only exceptions to "bevel down", but now I recall there are other so called "low angle" planes that (I think, haven't used one myself) also have the bevel up. After looking at your pictures, that frog does look to be a pretty low angle.

But I still think I'd put that chip breaker on the other side and install the bevel down, and see how that works.

Mike of the North
10-23-2011, 08:05 PM
I have a few planes I need to tune up, I plan on looking here http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat= for info HTH

JoeLee
10-23-2011, 08:08 PM
That is the way the iron and chip breaker were set in the plane. There is no way the chip brreaker can go under the iron, it has to go on top.

JL.................

Punkinhead
10-23-2011, 08:23 PM
That is the way the iron and chip breaker were set in the plane. There is no way the chip brreaker can go under the iron, it has to go on top.

JL.................The chip breaker in your photos is mounted on the wrong side of the iron and the iron is installed upside down in the plane. The #7 is a bevel down plane. It looks like you need to move the frog closer to the mouth.

Tony Ennis
10-23-2011, 08:37 PM
Punkinhead is correct.

Search the web for tuning old planes - there are several web sites that discuss it.

The chip breaker, one it is tuned properly, will be positioned about 1/64" behind the cutting edge of the blade and will fit without a gap all the way across. As the wood chip being produced by the cutting edge contacts the chip breaker, the chip will be forced to curl up, and it will break. This prevents the chip from becoming a lever that could split the wood in front of the cutting edge.

The position of the frog is important. When everything is adjusted, the chip being produced should barely fit between the mouth opening and the iron. This prevents the iron from splitting the wood. So the blade depth sets the thickness of the chip, the position of the frog and chip breaker make sure the wood ahead of the blade isn't split.

JoeLee
10-23-2011, 08:39 PM
Punkinhead, that is what I thought, bevel down. The problem I'm running into is by the time I move the iron out far enough to take even the finest cut there is no room for the chip to pass through the mouth, regardless of where I move the frog. This is where I'm confused. Thats why I thought i would start with grinding the proper angle on the iron and see where that puts me. I searched the internet but couldn't really find a detailed enough picture of this plane to tell weather the bevel is up or down.

JL.................

JoeLee
10-23-2011, 08:42 PM
I'll try flipping it around tomorrow and post some pics of how it fits.
Somethings funny here and this thing is too simple to be messin with my brain.
JL...............

Tony Ennis
10-23-2011, 08:48 PM
This is the bible of Stanley planes (http://supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html).

Handplane tune-up here (http://home.comcast.net/~rexmill/planes101/tuneup/tuneup.htm).

JoeLee
10-23-2011, 11:39 PM
OK, here is what I got. If I don't get this figured out tonight I won't sleep. I put the bevel down which is the way I figured it was supposed to go in the first place, with the chip breaker positioned about a 32nd behind the edge. It makes sense as the Stanley logo is showing on top. But...... there is a very small gap at the mouth and the cutting edge is still above the sole and needs to come down more before it will start to cut. If I move the frog back any more the iron will start to touch the mouth opening which is only about a .188 wide slot. Then the iron will not lay flat on the angle of the frog, that isn't correct either. The frog is already almost as far back as it can go. Tony...... thanks for the link, a lot of reading ther but I'll figure the rest of this out tomorrow.

JL.................

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Bailey%20No%207%20Plane/Image005.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Bailey%20No%207%20Plane/Image006.jpg

Gary Paine
10-23-2011, 11:55 PM
A bit hard to be sure from the photo, but it looks like you are trying to use an iron (cutter) from a wooden plane rather than a Stanley one, and they do not fit. Is the iron tapered in thickness as it looks - thinner at the top than the cutting edge ? The Stanley iron was clearly marked on the sharp side at the top edge and it was the same thickness throughout the length of the iron. It is somewhat thinner than the thick end of a tapered iron. The bevel is too short at least. It should be approximately twice as long as the thickness of the iron.

JoeLee
10-24-2011, 12:07 AM
Nope..... that is the original iron for that plane. The thickness is the same from top to bottom, it's not tapered. Actually the bevel I think is too long, it's better than twice the thickness of the iron. That is why I inquired about the angle of the cutting edge in my first post. As it stands the angle is about 30 deg. Changing it to about 25 deg. should make the length of the bevel equal to twice the thickness of the iron.

JL................

NzOldun
10-24-2011, 12:50 AM
Nope..... that is the original iron for that plane. The thickness is the same from top to bottom, it's not tapered. Actually the bevel I think is too long, it's better than twice the thickness of the iron. That is why I inquired about the angle of the cutting edge in my first post. As it stands the angle is about 30 deg. Changing it to about 25 deg. should make the length of the bevel equal to twice the thickness of the iron.

JL................


Grind the edge of the iron to 25 deg. KEEP IT COOL!!! UNDER NO CICUMSTANCEs allow ANY discolouration!! When you have ground the edge square, use a honing jig to hand hone the cutting edge at 30 deg. It only needs a few thou' but can be up to about .030 wide. When you can feel a very slight 'burr' on the face side, by sliding your finger or thumb UP the blade towards the edge (be very careful) turn the blade over, lay it flat on the honing stone and hone off the burr. Repeat the honing of the edge for three or four strokes and repeat the burr removal technique. At this stage you should have a razor sharp edge. Hold the blade up to the light and see if you can see any light reflected off the edge. If you can - it's not sharp.

Strop the edge at on an old wide leather belt, about 45 deg, bevel side down and about 20 deg, bevel side up to revove the whiskers left over from removing the burr.

NzOldun

10KPete
10-24-2011, 02:34 AM
Read the info in the links Tony posted. It's all there.

And don't file out the mouth unless you've really done your homework.
Once it's cut larger you can't put it back!!!

And whatever you do, don't do anything that will put a bevel on the back of the iron. Just
flat polish only! This includes stropping.

Pete

Greg Q
10-24-2011, 05:18 AM
Changing the bevel won't do anything for your mouth clearance issues. Having said that the mouth doesn't need to be gaping wide. And the blade may have been a thicker replacement. Your plane does not come from the golden period of plane manufacturing but the era of "value engineering". It is possible that the mouth was never correctly dimensioned hence the attempt to use the frog retracted.

The painted handles and very rough grinding on the frog are evidence of that. The lever cap is correct.

Tuning up a plane is straightforward but time consuming. If you know how to scrape you can flatten the sole and match the frog to the body etc.

Almost every element of those planes need attention to work better-they were a kit as sold.

Greg (I've fixed up about 25 of those things over the years-the first one took two days of lapping/honing/matching plus cosmetics)

On edit...from the photos it looks like you have a LOT of work to flatten the back of that blade. It has to be a mirror and dead flat up to the edge.

Tony Ennis
10-24-2011, 08:40 AM
I use my old hand planes frequently. None of mine are tuned. I did put them on the table saw table to see if they would rock - the need to be flat. All of mine were when I got them.

I also don't have the blades to the level of perfection Greg Q describes. Mine have shiny backs about 1/4" from the cutting edge. You can adjust for minor amounts of out of squaredness.

The cutting edge only has to extend beneath the sole about 1/64". How much wood do you want to take off in one pass?!

Your plane is a 7C - the C means 'corrugated' - your sole has been milled. This idea was for this to reduce suction and friction.

Here's a link featuring my Stanley #8C (http://tony-stormcrow.blogspot.com/2008/05/making-chessboard.html).

Gary Paine
10-24-2011, 09:24 AM
I see in the second photo you have moved the frog up a bit. It needs to go further. The plane established by the frog should just line up with the back of the mouth opening as a starting point. Set that way, I think you would find that if you left the chip breaker off, the blade could slide down the frog and right through the mouth opening. The frog adjustment is used for only minute movements forward and back to open the mouth for thick shavings and close it up some for light cuts with no tearout. I think the bevel on your iron is hitting on the plane sole and that's why it will not come through. Of course, when the chip breaker is on the plane, it will restrict projection through the mouth, but when it does you are way too deep a cut anyway. A thick shaving with a plane this wide is only going to be .005 inches thick anyway.

JoeLee
10-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Hey guys, thanks for all the great tips. I don't plan on making any modifications to the plane, no cutting, no filing of the mouth etc. just a clean up and very modest tune up.
I'm not going to go crazy with it, I have to keep telling my self it's a primitive tool.... not much more advanced than stone knives and bear skins. Anyway..... I set it on my surface plate, it does rock from corner to corner a bit, but I'm not messing with it. The iron is bowed, it's not dead flat, I don't think I'll try to spring it back to flat because once it's locked down against the frog it'll conform to any irregularities in the frog so whats the point. The iron is about .085 thick. I think I'll just use some 400 grit sand paper on my cast iron surface plate and WD 40 and just clean it up before sharpening the edge. As far as the frog being adjustable....... I think that was a worthless feature as the only correct position for it is at the very end of it's adjustment. To get it to move back any more I would have to increase the length of the slotted holes and make a longer adjusting screw.
I'm happy to hear the the holder is original, I had my doubts since it's plated. It just doesn't look the age. My guess is this was pre WW2, 1930's ?? I know there are ways to tell, the brass knob is 1 1/4" in dia and has 3 rows of diagonal knurling.
Thanks for all the help.

Tony Ennis
10-24-2011, 09:48 AM
I have to keep telling my self it's a primitive tool.... not much more advanced than stone knives and bear skins.

Seriously? These planes are marvels. The only thing better are hand-made infill planes. One thing you have to remember is that the material you're working with (wood) moves all the time with changes in stress, humidity, and temperature. You could plane a surface perfectly flat and 10 minutes later it would not be flat.

The 'Blood and Gore' link will help you date your plane.

I guarantee if you learn that plane, you'll enjoy using it. Note that it's a jointing plane - it's made for making long expanses flat. The Stanley #5 is a more general use plane. I recommend you get one of those too :)

I love these things.

Gary Paine
10-24-2011, 01:33 PM
<snip> I'm happy to hear the the holder is original, I had my doubts since it's plated. It just doesn't look the age. My guess is this was pre WW2, 1930's ?? I know there are ways to tell, the brass knob is 1 1/4" in dia and has 3 rows of diagonal knurling.
Thanks for all the help.

Actually it is a proper Type 18 manufactured 1946- 1947 according to the accepted Roger Smith type study.

JoeLee
10-25-2011, 04:30 PM
I finished this up today, put a 25 deg. angle on the iron. I had to remove over .040 from the original bevel before it cleaned up. There is still a little whip in the cutting edge as the other side of the iron isn't perfectly flat, but I honed some of it out and I'm not going any furthur with this than that.
I flattened out the frog a bit as it had a little hump in it too. Now the iron comes through the mouth the way it should. I had to set the frog as far back as it would go just about. So much for it being adjustable. I really think the mouth should have been a bit wider but!!!!
Thanks for all the help and links.

JL................

http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Bailey%20No%207%20Plane/Image009.jpg
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac317/JoeLee09/Bailey%20No%207%20Plane/Image010.jpg

J Harp
10-25-2011, 09:54 PM
Try moving the frog forward instead of back. With it set back as in your pictures it isn't supporting the iron as it should, the iron is being sprung or bent when you tighten the clamp, and is guaranteed to chatter.

The frog should form a continuous surface with the back of the mouth opening, check it with a straight piece of steel such as a lathe bit as you set it.

A large mouth opening is not good, it will cause tear outs and give an unsatisfactory surface. A small mouth opening in combination with a properly fitted cap iron will give better results with less tear out. The mouth needs to hold the wood down as close as possible to the cutting edge. The cap iron needs to fit tight to the plane iron without any gaps which would allow chips to jam between it and the plane iron, and it needs to be close to the cutting edge as others have stated. Set this way the plane will have more of a tendency to cut the wood rather than split it. Splitting wood is not what you want to do with a hand plane

Tony Ennis
10-25-2011, 11:38 PM
The mouth opening on that plane is too wide. Move the frog up. The idea is that the chip produced by the blade barely fit through it. These planes are not for hogging off material. The chip should be soft and curly, not stiff at all. Set the blade depth to be as little as you can and still pull a shaving.

That being said, the throat width isn't too critical for most work. But if you plane wood with a wild grain and you want a glass-smooth finish, tighten it up.

JoeLee
10-25-2011, 11:48 PM
J and Tony, the frog is in line with the mouth opening, the iron is resting flat along the surface of the frog and is not being sprung. If I move it back any more the iron will be forced off the frog when I lock the clamp. I checked it with a straight edge as you mentioned. Now that I have the correct bevel on the iron I can see that I can move the frog forward a bit more which I will. Thanks.

JL.................

Frank46
10-26-2011, 01:06 AM
Think there was an article in fine woodworking about sharpening plane irons and setting up a plane. Don't remember much but after getting the primary bevel the article then went on to tell you to establish a secondary bevel. So if you had a 30 degree angle set up then you had to stone in a secondary bevel of 25 degrees. I think the idea of the secondary bevel was to allow faster chip breakup and that the secondary bevel was easier to maintain. Course prior to this you had to ensure that the back of the plane iron was as flat as you could get it. I tried this out on both a stanley block plane and a older stanley wood block plane. I was trying to cut some walnut dutchmen to fill in the space left behing when removing the forend rail. The block plane took little fine shavings. The older wood plane took forever to get the iron as flat as I could and its cutting edge had to be restored. Not one to mess with a grinder I did it with stones. That plane would cut shavings so fine you almost could see through them. Hope this helps. Frank

lynnl
10-26-2011, 11:11 AM
So if you had a 30 degree angle set up then you had to stone in a secondary bevel of 25 degrees. I think the idea of the secondary bevel was to allow faster chip breakup and that the secondary bevel was easier to maintain.

I think you got that reversed. The secondary bevel has to be a greater angle than the primary.

Would be kind of hard to hone a lesser angle just at the edge. :)

But frankly, other than the future ease of maintenance, I've never been able to detect a performance advantage in honing a secondary bevel. Maybe I just don't do it right.

mike os
10-26-2011, 03:51 PM
2nd bevel is just for lazy sorts who cannot be bothered, or are unable to sharpen tools correctly.

angle selected for material, can be adjusted if you have a particular job that works better with it, 25-30deg is a good all round setting. When I work wood seriously ( & I am a carpenter & cabinet maker) mine are all 25deg.

No need to be too anal about setting it up... it is a primitive tool in many ways, if the wood is chipping then close the mouth down a bit, if it is clogging up, open it out. Mine usually sit at about 2-3mm for bench planes.

I have never even bothered to check the flatness of metal planes, ( including serious jointers 3- 4 long) unless the defect is "visible from across the room" it is almost certainly flat enough for wood. Wood planes are another matter.