milling head runout

[madbear]

i have been having some problems with a Grizzly #G0516 lathe combo.
only had the thing for about 3 days & the switch went out . about 3-4 days later i tried to get the draw bar loose, it was stuck & after a lot of taping with both a dead blow & brass mallet it would not come loose. after calling the tec. service dept. the guy told me that they can become really stuck in shipping & that i should hit it harder. well i did,got it out & it was now bent. after talking with them & sending in a video of the wobbling bar they let me send it back to get it repaired or exchanged for another one because i was not at all happy with it & had been trying to get it exchanged.
well i got it back after about 3-4 weeks, opened it & there was not any change made to it.
ok now i am really pissed, called the customer service to find out what was up & was told that there was nothing wrong with it. ok i can live with the draw bar being a little bent if it doesn't affect the performance but it looks like the spindle is wobbling & when i told the lady about it she said that it was checked by the tecs. said that it was acceptable!
now i admit i am not a machinist but i have been working with woodworking machines all my life & have my own wood shop ( furniture & cabinets) & that just doesn't add up.
how much wobble should there be in a "precision" mill spindle?
thanks for reading my rant & any advice would be appreciated;
madbear

[Boostinjdm]

How exactly did you determine the spindle is wobbling?

[jep24601]

Are you seeing the drawbar on top of the spindle wobbling or are you measuring spindle wobble at the bottom end of the spindle?

[madbear]

at first i just eyeballed it but i just went out & put the dial indicator on a 1/4" endmill & it showed to be 2,000 out.

[macona]

You are measuring wrong. You need to use a test indicator on the internal taper of the spindle.

[madbear]

will check it tomorrow
thanks

[gwilson]

A bent drawbar is not good either. It will enter the threads in your r8 collets at an angle,and eventually something will get wallowed out. Either the draw bar or the collets. You can straighten it to a reasonable degree yourself,can't you?

Doesn't sound like good customer service.

[uncle pete]

I'd bet this is a MT3 taper for the mill. Can you go thru Grizzly's manual and give the part name for exactly what part other than the draw bar that has the wobble?

(Sigh) I guess it's easy to reccommend using a BFH when you don't own the machine. While MTs do work and have for a lot longer than I've been alive. There's far better spindle tapers such as that R-8. That doesn't help with your problem though.

Aside from this problem, Little Machine Shop In California offer a drop in replacement spindle with an R-8 taper. Depending on just how much MT3 tooling you've bought, You really might want to consider that option.

Pete

[J Tiers]

With some small amount of adapting, one can make an "ejecting" drawbar......

I made one for the Lewis mill I have.... now, instead of beating on the drawbar, all I have to do is pop the taper out with a squeeze of my hand on a couple of wrenches..... NO pounding, no drama, no brinnelling of the bearings with a BFH.

it's SO easy....... and mine uses an MT3 in the spindle. They can indeed get well and truly stuck.

[madwilliamflint]

With some small amount of adapting, one can make an "ejecting" drawbar......

I made one for the Lewis mill I have.... now, instead of beating on the drawbar, all I have to do is pop the taper out with a squeeze of my hand on a couple of wrenches..... NO pounding, no drama, no brinnelling of the bearings with a BFH.

it's SO easy....... and mine uses an MT3 in the spindle. They can indeed get well and truly stuck.

That sounds interesting. Got a link to more information on it? I wince every time I 'tap' the bar on my little griz.

[madbear]

well guys that is just part of the problem. yea the customer service SUCKS!
as i stated i am a rookie & trying to get any help from these people is like pushing a rope. the owners manual doesn't have very good instructions . the best part of this is the draw bar isn't anywhere to be found! i can't even order one & pay for it much less get them to replace it, they sent it back to me saying that there was nothing wrong!!!!!!!!!!!! i have been fighting with them for about 4 months. yesterday i was trying to run it & was getting a loud squeal from the drive train it's not the belts, it's not the gears & everything has been oiled ? driving me crazy !
i am sending a letter to the president, don't think it will help but who knows.
i refuse to do any more business with grizzly because of this & i have been getting the tools & parts i need form little machine shop. they have been a great help.
madbear

[gwilson]

Grizzly 99.9% of the time has a great customer service record. This is definitely some kind of fouled up exception. "Pappa Grizzly" follows the Practical Machinist and Sawmill Creek forums. He will pick it up if you post your troubles there,and I know he will make it right.

[uncle pete]

UH, I'd just like to point out that posting about this type and size of mill on the (Not too)Practical Machinist forum will likely get your butt handed back to you on a plate. It would be a thread lock for sure.

Grizzly is pretty good about customer service so your email should work. While it should and will be handled under warranty it's not too tough to build a new drawbar using various methods.

Pete

[madbear]

emails are not working, i have been back & forth with customer service. i have been trying to get some help sence i got the damn thing! (no more) i will have to wright a letter as they won't give me Balolia's email address or who ever i have to talk to above customer service.
maybe quality controlif i can ever get their # or address.
madbear

[uncle pete]

Madbear,
Off hand I can't remember the standard thread pitch for a MT3 spindle. For the time being you could go to a decent Hardwhare/Auto parts store, Match up the thread with a real long bolt or all thread rod, Make up a heavy washer, Lock tight a nut or lock two nuts togeather onto the all thread if used just to keep you going till Grizzly resolves this.

I can certainly understand your frustration. Just for a heads up, I've dealt with companys and heard about many more that were far worse than Grizzly.

I owned the same lathe/mill combination you do, But bought in Canaduh. I won't even start on that little over priced fiasco.

Pete

[philbur]

I think this thread may need to rewind to step one. You talk about a wobble and a video and endmill run-out.

If the hole in the top of the spindle is larger than the drawbar diameter (as they always are) the drawbar will not necessarily align with the spindle axis and therefore will appear to wobble when rotated. This might be interpreted as a bent drawbar.

The best way to determine if the drawbar is bent is to roll it on a flat surface.

Run out measured on an endmill can be due to a number of reasons, one of which is not a bent drawbar.

When seeking help it is best to state what you know for fact and how you determined it to be a fact. Don't make you own diagnoses and then state it as a fact, it can lead to lots of confusion.

Phil:)

[philbur]

Put the video of the wobbling drawbar on youtube then post a link here.

Phil:)

[madbear]

philbur,
you are right, i shouldn't state for a fact something i don't know for fact. i was not aware that i stated it as a fact, sorry! here is a video link to the video i sent to grizzly *(hope it works)
you can see why i thought it was bent & notice the "wobble" on the spindle nut.
as i said this is just one of the problems. i am having trouble with the gear train & i don't know where the squeal is coming from.
now i understand this is not a machine that an experienced machinist would buy. it is a hobby type lathe combo & i can't expect it to do what a larger more expensive machine wiil do.
sorry if i seem to be a little whinner. i am just trying to figure this all out. i will be talking to a grizzly tec. latter,see what he has to say. it just seems that this machine is not very well built.
i guess i will be stuck with it so will keep researching, learning & buying what i need to fix it or make it run better
thanks for all the help;
madbear


http://youtu.be/INJKmQpM2Zs

[gwilson]

You'd best not run the machine much at all,or that squeal may turn into a worn out part in a big hurry.

[philbur]

Squeals are usually belts or bearings. So if its not belts you need to check out the motor and spindle bearings.

Squealing noises from bearings can be:

1) Plain bearings - dry no lube
2) Rolling element bearings - no preload, balls/rollers skidding
3) Rolling element bearings - seized, inner or outer race spinning in housing.

Phil:)

[rythmnbls]

Madbear,

I have the same combo machine, so maybe I can help a bit, the runout you see is the spindle nut not the spindle itself.

I didn't hear any squeals in the video, if you're getting a squeal when running the lathe pull the counter shaft pulley (part 913) and make sure the oil holes in the shaft aren't full of cosmoline. Mine were and the bearing dried out pretty quick resulting in squealing.

I's also recommend separating the mill from the lathe and buying a mill table from LMS. Also the gears in the mill head will fail, the drive belt conversion kit is worth installing.

Steve.

[madbear]

i'm sorry i should have said the squealing is on the lathe :o i will pull the counter shaft & check it out, that seems to be where the noise is comimg from
thanks;
madbear

[madbear]

rythmnbis
thanks for the tip. that was it !
have you had any problems with the gears?
my gears keep coming lose & falling out of aliigment. it is always the middle set & i am sure i am getting them tight enough, don't want to over tighten them

[J Tiers]

That sounds interesting. Got a link to more information on it? I wince every time I 'tap' the bar on my little griz.

I can't remember if HSM printed that article, or if that is the one they did NOT print..... I sent it in....

I'll find or take a pic if necessary....

But.

The idea was that I made a threaded cap for the back of the spindle (it is a horizontal). There are a few threads showing behind the nut, but one could possibly replace a thick nut with a thinner one if there are not enough threads free.

The drawbar is made as thick as will fit, and has both a backside "bolthead" for tightening, and a "collar" that fits under the cap. The cap is trapped between them.

So, turning one way, the drawbar pulls in the arbor, etc, while turning the other, the collar hits the cap, and pushes out the taper.

I made one for end mill adaptors and shell mill arbors , I think that is 3/8-16, and another for the cutter arbors, which have a 5/16-20 or similar thread.