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RussZHC
11-30-2011, 10:28 AM
I am not one for necessarily taking advice but at the same time would like to thank Pixman in particular and all the rest of you who have helped me generally but with trying to learn about insert/insert tooling specifically.
I purchased some insert boring bars, yet to arrive and will be months until access to shop (too cold) will allow use and suspect they maybe a bit wrong (TPGH and TCMT) but hey...right now its not a lot of money (while, that is not entirely true :( ...).

Anyway...this trying to learn insert nomenclature is enough to start drinking very early in the day...BUT, and I know I know very little, I think I have it down to a few printed pages...Kyocera (sp?) had a couple of pages that can act as cross reference between ISO and ANSI (I know there was a thread here a bit ago...) but they move between fractional and decimal inch for small details like thickness and radius so a few spots got written in notes...add in the colour charts (ISO I believe but now with use in many mfg systems as well) and it begins to make a bit of sense.

I guess the question here, if there is one, how does one keep up with all the greater details (wiper geometry, if I have that with correct words, and coatings)?
Would it be possible to have a "sticky" on this site where us noobs could go and get the basics...sort of always adding information as the need arises? Lower horsepower, typical HSM...
The more I read, the more it seems like each specific use has its own specific detail, which I guess is what you want but man, makes it tough to learn!

Oh, almost forgot...suspect purchase will be eBay, so lots of questions there too (most popular seems to be is that for a single insert or 10) but have to smile when the ad line TCMT 2151LF KC730 does not match photo CNMG432MN does not match detailed description DCMT 2151LF KC 370

JoeCB
11-30-2011, 10:52 AM
Try this link , helped me wade thru the carbide swamp

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm


Joe B

JoeLee
11-30-2011, 10:52 AM
Once you get used to the letter / number designations for shapes, radius, etc. etc. it's pretty straight forward.

JL...............

Black Forest
11-30-2011, 12:31 PM
I was/am also having trouble trying to figure out all the nomenclature and when to use what.

What I ended up doing was picking one manufacturer and sticking with them at least for now. Then I got their big catalog and downloaded their most recent .pdf updates. I figure when I understand what tool and insert I need for a particular metal and feature with one company then I will expand my horizons.

I picked Walter and have been very impressed with their tools and service.
The catalog's have a lot of information pages as to what to use and feeds and speeds, geometries, coatings for what use. As to Ebay I only buy Walter tools and inserts because I can look it up real easy to find what I am looking at and if it will work.

Yesterday I received some new tools and inserts for finishing. All I can say is the finish is unbelievable and fast. Also with these finishing inserts I can sneak up on a final dimension on the lathe without fear of finish quality. I can easily skim off .05mm and have a near mirror finish. The insert is ground and is really sharp! I ran my finger over the tip of an insert and it sliced the end of my finger.

The insert is a Walter DCGT11T301-PF2 grade WXN10
The holder is SDJCR 2525 M11

Carld
11-30-2011, 01:37 PM
It's like falling into a pit of snakes and trying to grab the right one to leave with.

RussZHC
11-30-2011, 02:53 PM
Ah, see, Walter poses a whole other "issue" in that while I like their "stuff", unless I am missing something, the most current web offerings in terms of info and catalog will only be in German until early 2012 :D (going strictly by the pages I found a couple of weeks ago)

Granted sometimes it is just how the ID is presented, first few times with the Sandvik online catalog was exasperating until you realize how they break up the numbers (just saying not all adverts for those inserts break up the numbers...a space or dash in the wrong place or absent will return "not found" more often than not)

I would also say there are, shall we say, premium suppliers/manufacturers and while I agree with paying good money for good product, its difficult to not try the cheaper (EBay) routes first and sometimes you get bit...the bars and holders are cheaper and then you find out the inserts are either odd, proprietary (or nearly so) or difficult to find for, you guessed it, the material you need them for...

Black Forest
11-30-2011, 03:38 PM
Try this link. It takes you to the online catalog. I am still looking for the location of where I downloaded the .pdf.
http://ww2.walter-ag.de:8080/sap/bc/gui/sap/its/ZZWALTEROSTORE/?sap-language=EN&ostore[1]=WBAU1_E&~okcode[1]=TOL&~target[1]=_top&~forcetarget[1]=yes

RussZHC
11-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Its by no means up-to-date nor complete but I found this site to be pretty helpful...as far as I know usable pdf [there's lots there incl Walter from 2005/07/08/09 depending on what you are looking for]

http://pdf.directindustry.com/

Edit: http://waltertools.blaetterkatalog.de/

once there, "Speichern" (top) and when that drops down, "komplettes pdf " is a choice (that's 2012 German)

Edit II: if anyone cares, use "walter-tools.com", just "Walter" will get you only the abrasives part of the business

Black Forest
11-30-2011, 04:11 PM
Russ this is what I have learned. I am quite new to this machining addiction!

So dealing with so many unkowns I like to try to minimize the gotchas. Trying to save some money I also bought tools and inserts off Ebay. I wasn't getting the results I wanted but I didn't know if it was my technique, tooling or whatever. I was not getting consistent results. So I decided to try to eleiminate as many of the unkowns as possible. Starting with the tooling. I bought the right tools for the type of work I was trying to do. Things improved dramatically.

All tools and inserts with the same nomenclature are not the same from different companies. One would think the holders are not that important but I have found the cheap tool holders with the same good Walter inserts don't achieve the same result as using a Walter tool holder. I wish it were not so but it seems the holder is very important. Same with inserts. I bought some inserts off Ebay that matched the same inserts from Walter but they are not nearly as good or long lasting. The inserts from Walter just seem to hold their edge longer and take more of a beating. So untlmately it is not more expensive in the long run.

I do not own stock in Sandvik which owns Walter!!!!!!!

PixMan
11-30-2011, 05:35 PM
Russ,

If you want English language, North American market publications from Walter, go to this site and choose the "Service and Downloads" from the top menu bar. Then on the left side menu, select "Download Print Media".

http://www.walter-tools.com/us

From the choices, you should download the "Walter General" catalog, (first choice on the list), then the ones under it. The "Walter Valenite Turning" and "Walter Valenite Milling" have a lot of discontinued items, but the insert identification sheets within are among the best, easiest-to-comprehend I've ever seen. I still refer to the one for milling inserts (in the Walter "Valenite Milling 2007" catalog) to get deeper info on the nuances of milling inserts that even myself I can't seem to store in my head.

The insert and holder nomenclature that Black Forest posted was, for instance, in purely ISO (metric) designation. The insert identification data in the Valenite Turning 2007 catalog includes comprehensive cross-listings to ISO (metric) designations.

As for the insert that Black Forest mentioned, there you have evidence that there are indeed coated carbide inserts that are incredibly sharp, cut steel at higher speeds and last far longer than the equivalent HSS tool bit....if you're will to buy them.

In ANSI language, the insert would be a:

DCGT32.50-PF2 WXN10 (about a .004" tip radius)

The rough equivalent holder in 1" square shank (his is 25mm) would be a:

SDJCR 163D

Black Forest
11-30-2011, 06:14 PM
Pixman, do you think I am wrong in that the tool holder for the insert makes a difference? Or am I just trying to justify the added expense of buying the walter tool holders.

PixMan
11-30-2011, 08:04 PM
Black Forest,

I've seen some Chinese-made no-name insert holders that are so poorly-made that they don't hold the insert securely. Those 5 or 6 tool holder sets that take some sort of triangular insert are a prime example of why buying first quality tools only hurts once.

I see people buy those sets thinking "this is the answer to my prayers", only to find out that "this is the beginning of my nightmare". The inserts either move in the holder's pocket or don't fit at all, then if they can get the tool cutting at all they learn the further lesson that the carbide was made from the dirt in the parking lot. Broken inserts just from tightening the screw down, or chipped inserts from touching the material. Such performance leaves the unknowing thinking that carbide insert tooling is just wrong for any home shop.

There are varying degrees of the disdain for carbide insert tooling in home shops. Consider yourself lucky to be able to dive in and afford some of the very best tooling money can buy. It mates well with the Klopp machines you have!

Boucher
11-30-2011, 08:22 PM
Back when I started down this path the local machinery sales house had a large stack of Sandivik catalogs for both Lathe and Mill. They were free and I got two copies of each. I have spent many hours studying these. After a while they start to sense.

Good tool holders are expensive but they are better than many of the knock offs. However some cheap holders work good with good inserts. I put good Ceramic inserts on some of those cheap carbide holders and the performance is very impressive. I probably have more invested in one drawer of inserts than I have in my lathe. As time goes by I come back to doing more and more of my work with HSS. Initially I used more of the brazed carbide. They work good also but again there are quality differences. Some of the older ones from 15-20 years ago seem better than newer ones.

My advice would be to start with a good brand turning holder for some insert like TNMG. Get one that has both the center screw and the top clamp and has a seat under the insert. Get some good HSS blanks and learn to grind them. A good grinder with good wheels to sharpen HSS is money better spent than accumulating a lot of insert tooling.

PixMan
11-30-2011, 10:18 PM
The negative rake insert holders that use a center cam/eccentric screw as well as a top clamp are rapidly being replaced by a newer style that uses a thick carbide seat, and a single-wrench top clamp that has a pin to reach into the insert's center hole and pull it back into and down in the pocket. You can see the two styles side by side here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/422322392_photobucket_39767_.jpg

This photo perhaps better shows the thick seat and how the "ramp" to the rear of the top clamp pulls the insert back and down:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_0886-r.jpg

I have a couple, and I'll be replacing with the newer style as the budget and opportunity presents itself. Most home shop guys need not worry about this matter because they use the screw-down positive rake inserts. Other holder styles, those primarily for the older flat-top, non hole-thru TPG inserts, use a simple top clamp and perhaps a mechanical chipbreaker (which is a smaller-than-the-insert piece of non-cutting carbide.)

This photo shows two styles of positive rake insert boring bars. The smaller one is a screw-down, the one in front a Valenite VNCD-7462 (non-standard nomenclature, btw) that takes a TPG22x series insert. It doesn't use a carbide chipbreaker, but depends somewhat on the hardened top clamp to curl up some chips.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/422322392_photobucket_39768_.jpg

The nomenclature for much in the way of parting and grooving tools has gone proprietary, though the Kennametal-originated "Top Notch" system is widely used now for simple grooving. I have those holders, but prefer using my Valenite VSG and VTG insert holders for those tasks because of the better chip control.

lazlo
11-30-2011, 11:19 PM
The insert identification data in the Valenite Turning 2007 catalog includes comprehensive cross-listings to ISO (metric) designations.

The letter designations and the method of measuring the thickness, inscribed circle and tip radius are the same between ISO and ANSI. The only difference was that the ISO standard converted the 1/16th inch increments to millimeters:

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

Also, another piece of the mystery is that everything after the size designation (the numbers) tends to be proprietary. So the -PF2 WXN10... is proprietary, everything else is ISO or ANSI standard.

"DCGT32.50-PF2 WXN10 (about a .004" tip radius)"

Rich V
12-01-2011, 10:38 AM
Attached is a PDF that gives you a very good description on insert nomenclature. Download and print it for your reference.

American National Standard
for Cutting Tools
Indexable Inserts
Identification System

http://www.ccpa.org/pdf/B212_4.pdf

RussZHC
12-01-2011, 03:26 PM
What is the purpose of the carbide seat? Accuracy? Wear?
Are they all carbide or do some mfg use other materials?


Is it another name for "shim"? Or are we talking about two different things?

I have noticed in the smaller sizes, like those I am considering, it, the seat/shim, is not as prevalent as with the larger sizes yet you would think, whatever the reason, it would apply to all sizes (or is there just not enough room?).

Asked as it seems to me the additional pieces complicate matters...

lazlo
12-01-2011, 03:50 PM
What is the purpose of the carbide seat? Accuracy? Wear?
Are they all carbide or do some mfg use other materials?

Is it another name for "shim"?

Same thing. It's for wear. More specifically, when you crash, if you shatter the carbide shim, you can just replace it.

PixMan
12-01-2011, 08:27 PM
The carbide seat/shim under an insert is not intended to be a wear product. It's primarily for increasing insert stability by giving the two pieces together more mass and hence, more stability.

There have been some HSS seats, but not many. As holders or milling cutters get smaller, there my no be room for seats. In those cases, you have all the more need for quality on the milled pocket.

Forrest Addy
12-01-2011, 09:17 PM
The cheat sheets from Darbide Depot JoeCB posted a link to is the one I use. Similar cheets with the same graphics are used by several sellers and can be found in the tech help sections of several manufacturers. It's pretty good as it goes.

The problem with carbide shapes, grades, coatings, and nomenclature is they may be sorta standardized but every maker and third party seller adds their own wrinkles claiming their insert (usually a commodity product as much like comparablee offerings as grains of wheat) has subtle features no other insert has and is sold under a nominclature and grade not directly convertable to the de-facto standard.

This leads to confusion which marketers are quick to exploit in the pursuit of sales. It's ironic that a few of these quacks-like-a-duck inserts are the leading edge of a whole generation whose shape, size, and nominclature fit existing holders but have a close order of magnitude in productivity increase over previous offerings. This happens just often enough to disrupt a user's protecti=ve cynicism. Thus carbide used are constantly off balance.

Take my own experience. Back in the shop where I served most of my career, we made a succession of submarine shaft seal components. They were ring and flanged castings cored 16" and having OD ro 40". Four of them assembled with high strength bolts to contain a very fancy seal tused to o keep the water out of the sub - i understand ihis is important.

The material was cast K monel and it was a tough and abrasive alloy whose high nickel content was erosive to most any carbide insert you could put against it. Only fine feeds would yield acceptable finishes but the fine feeds abraded the tooling. It was very difficult to get a flat surface. Tool wear lead to 0.005" to 0.008" concave or convex. We finessed the problem by faceing one part inside to out making it concave and the mating part outside in machining if convex. Some of the bores were long and the only way to control taper was to step the side head out to correct taper.

Enter a Kyrocera salesman name Steve, normally a huckster coated with slime uttering baseless assertions. He gave us a box of Kyrocera toughened ceramic inserts. They not only solved out tool wear problems but we could machine this nasty stuff about 2 times faster. So in that particular instance: hooray for the innovation. It was real, productive, a little cheaper than carbide, and it solved a real problem. OTH, for every success like this there are a hundred distinctions without differences.

So my advice to any seeker of carbide wisdom. Learn the basics, the bones of the code and nomenclature, but most of all understand there is a certain amount of BS assosiated with it. It's a full time job keeping up; keeping current on the new tools and inserts every day brings to the market. Most people can't devote full time for something that doersnt bring home bacon of some kind. For those I suggest a carefully chosen array of GP tooling with as much cross comaptibility as you can manage.

For the odd material and odd jobs I suggest inserts of a type and grade that suits your existing tooling shanks as much as possible.

The alternative is no system at all leading to Vista cabinets slowly filling with expensive tooling, accessory items, and inserts as the years go by; expensive stuff used once and thereafter maybe once a year. The least lapse can be the thin edge of the wedge where inattentive acquescing to the rash insistances of tooling partizans equipped you with six different threading tools and thread boring tools. You will go along for a couple of years fillling drawers and before you know it you have $1500 - nay $15,000 - in white elephant tooling.

Systemetize and standarize. Tattoo that inside your eyelids.

lazlo
12-01-2011, 10:28 PM
The carbide seat/shim under an insert is not intended to be a wear product.

From Sandvik:

"Furnished with fully adjustable carbide chipbreaker and carbide shim to protect the holder."

JoeLee
12-01-2011, 10:32 PM
Black Forest,

I've seen some Chinese-made no-name insert holders that are so poorly-made that they don't hold the insert securely. Those 5 or 6 tool holder sets that take some sort of triangular insert are a prime example of why buying first quality tools only hurts once.

I see people buy those sets thinking "this is the answer to my prayers", only to find out that "this is the beginning of my nightmare". The inserts either move in the holder's pocket or don't fit at all, then if they can get the tool cutting at all they learn the further lesson that the carbide was made from the dirt in the parking lot. Broken inserts just from tightening the screw down, or chipped inserts from touching the material. Such performance leaves the unknowing thinking that carbide insert tooling is just wrong for any home shop.

There are varying degrees of the disdain for carbide insert tooling in home shops. Consider yourself lucky to be able to dive in and afford some of the very best tooling money can buy. It mates well with the Klopp machines you have!

I know exactly what you mean..... my first set was a 3/8" set of five. The first problem was like you said, the inset isn't securly held in place since there is no pocket. The second problem was that I could never seem to tighten it down enough and the worst problem was the microscopic hex head stripped out real fast. I eventually found some good grade C5 incerts that fit. I changed the screw to a slotted flat head and haven't had much problems with them since.

JL.....................

BadDog
12-02-2011, 01:23 AM
When I first got into lathes that would actually use (and prefer) insert tooling, my friend/mentor told me to always look for the carbide seat, and avoid screw down if possible.

The reason to insist on a carbide anvil/seat is that the first time you take off a point violently (often crash, but not always), you ruin the holder. That anvil seat will usually survive, and if not, it can generally be replaced, often from an otherwise ruined donor. However, I've procured a few without carbide anvils. Most notably solid carbide boring bars. And many of these were VERY cheap because just as warned, many had the support broken/torn away from a broken insert. We TIG it, then I re-machine and have a bar normally costing well over $100 (priced a 3/4 x 10 solid carbide lately?) for $20. I've got 8 or so repaired holders, including 2 face mills, most were free to $20 at the high end. All because of damage to the pocket. Yes, I prefer the carbide seats.

The screw is another discussion, but he was right about that too (as with most things I've learned).

bobw53
12-02-2011, 03:23 AM
The carbide seat/shim under an insert is not intended to be a wear product. It's primarily for increasing insert stability by giving the two pieces together more mass and hence, more stability.

My take on the carbide seats, and I LOVE them, they are there for when you crunch it, you lose a $10 seat, not an $80 holder. I LOVE them even more on milling cutters, those guys are expensive, and an extra $100 buying a cutter body with seats can save mad money over time.

Insert nomenclature is really pretty simple. The first letter is the shape, the basics are easy then it gets a little funky.

T= triangle.... how easy is that
R= round < don't encounter that all that much
S= square... Simple
D= diamond, 55 degrees I do believe. see how easy this is.

Then we get funky, only 3 more to know.

C = 80 degree diamond, you need to know this one
V = 35 degree? diamond, I think of it as Very Sharp diamond.
W = 80 degree triangle, that trigon thing


Second letter. Easy here too, sort of.

N = neutral, usually a double sided deal, requiring a negative rake holder.
P = positive. its 11 or 7 degrees or something.
Any other letter, back rake of some sort of angle, you'll encounter mostly C and P.


Third letter.

M = molded. low tolerance, probably pretty rounded on the edge
G = Ground around the edges, nice sharp edge.
It really has to do with tolerance of the whole insert, there are a bunch of letters, 99% of the time you will encounter G or M.

4th letter, has something to do with the hole in the center, No letter, no hole.

Those are mnemonic devices I use to figure it out. And that's about all you'll encounter for basic insert sizes.

Letters after that, chip breakers and what not, those can throw your head into a tailspin. Look at the #'s for feeds and depths of cut, what "they" call finishing inserts can make great roughing inserts on a lower horse machine.

The #s are easy, just fractional.

The first is inscribed circle in 1/8s of an inch. A 4 is half an inch, a 3 is 3/8's.

The second, thickness, and this can get confusing, since there might be halves and you'll have a decimal in there. CCGT32.52... That is a thickness of 2.5, 2 and one half 16ths of an inch. Really confusing because there is no space in between. CNMG 432 is 3/16ths of an inch thick.

Last # is nose radius in 64ths of an inch. A CNMG 432, probably the most common insert ever made, 2-64ths radius.

So CNMG 432, 80 degree diamond, neutral rake, molded, 1/2" inscribed circle, 3/16ths' thick, .031 nose radius.

CCGT32.51 80 degree diamond, 3/8" inscribed circle, 2.5 16ths thick, ground edge, .016 radius.

Now here is the fun part, your shape is set, your inscribed circle is set, rake angle is pretty much set by holder, as is the type of hole in the center(sort of), and the thickness of the insert.

Basically the only thing you can change is the 3rd letter and the 3rd number, and sometimes the hole in the center.

CNGG 431 will fit in the same holder as a CNMG 433. A CCGT32.53 will fit in the same holder as a CCMT32.51.

I hope that is slightly more clear than mud.


Then you get into chip breakers, coatings, and the carbide substrate, its a giant PIA.

RussZHC
12-02-2011, 07:57 AM
Bob: I am sure you know way more and use inserts way more than I ever will but, just saying as an example, your first letter list is only about half the list I have found...and what do you do when you come across a shape that is not there?
Again, just saying I have found a "Z***" [not listed and not mentioned as a "special" from what I can tell, or, better, a 55* triangle (from Sumitomo)].

What I am in the "process" of doing is, as was suggested, standardizing but, since to me the only way this becomes anywhere close to affordable is to make as inexpensive purchases as possible, in a backward sort of way, as in knowing what I want done, then checking which types of inserts are readily available and then seeing if those can fit within the parameters of what I want done.
Hey, it maybe a stupid way but, as example, sort of useless to me if a given shape is technically viable but is almost never available for use with steel since that is, by far, the bulk of raw material [it is not like they are not available, just not at prices I can afford...sorry but $16 to $20 per insert or more, new, for a hobby, is going to mean HSS for a long time...$4 to $6 per insert I can live with but it does mean, in effect, you take leftovers]

So far, to me, that appears to mean CC** and WC** since those can be used for both external turning and boring and both turning and facing operations BUT that is countered by finding a lot of lower cost inserts of the *NMG type...and I was sure I was after simple screw down but given the discussion the past few pages I am not sure anymore and that a clamping down maybe more appropriate for my use...and then again I could just be going about this all wrong

lazlo
12-02-2011, 10:29 AM
It's for wear. More specifically, when you crash, if you shatter the carbide shim, you can just replace it.The reason to insist on a carbide anvil/seat is that the first time you take off a point violently (often crash, but not always), you ruin the holder. That anvil seat will usually survive, and if not, it can generally be replaced, often from an otherwise ruined donor.

Been there, done that :)

bobw53
12-02-2011, 10:41 AM
Hey Russ, if you see a wierd letter, stay away from it. If there is an X in the nomenclature, usually, but not always means some proprietary crap.

I don't think you can go wrong standardizing on a CCMT 32.5x. Good for OD tools and ID tools. VERY common.

Have you checked out latheinserts.com? He's a one man band in Alabama, his name is Curtis and he likes horses. He's my goto guy for 90% of my tools. Pixman has recommended him before. Just tell him I want this size insert that does this, it shows up in the mail. He doesn't sell crap, what he does sell is smaller companies products that work as good or better than the big names, at a damn good price. He's got the toolholders too, not big names, but quality stuff at a fraction of the price. He can get you the big name stuff too, and cheaper than most "blue light special" pricing.

I'd say average of $6-$8 an insert, and you don't need that many, probably 2 different ones, a general purpose insert, and maybe some nice high polished upsharps for aluminum and plastics, which also work well as a finish insert or on small diameter stuff you can't beat on.

It will drive you to drink, that's why I don't think about it anymore. Digging through those catalogs can make your head explode. I just say "hey Curtis, give me something that will do xxxxxx", and it shows up, and then an invoice shows up, and the prices are really good and the inserts work like a charm.

RussZHC
12-02-2011, 04:07 PM
Bob: agree 100% on nearly all points you make. I try to balance having my head explode w the fact I like looking through catalogs (I know, odd/weird/strange)

For me it starts by looking for holders the current lathe toolpost will work with in terms of size, and, if anyone reading this has not done so, looking for 1/2" square (or similar) tool shanks eliminates A LOT of choices from the large catalogs almost immediately. Unless you want to spend some time milling shanks or conversely enlarging AXA sized parts...secondly, I would like to find an insert type that can be used with the above size holders and for both turning and boring, this, to use Walter as an example of reducing a very complete catalog to what I could possibly use and putting a few more parameters in place (screw down for example, as opposed to clamp or clamp/screw), this eliminates a goodly number more...

Yeh, the strange letters go into the "don't even consider" pile but as a general comment, I supposed the person(s) needing those odd ones will know precisely why they need it so just because I can't see the logic of adding something that is clearly out of the norm, does not mean someone will not value it. As example that 55* triangle I found did not mention anywhere what type holders would be needed or if they just fit differently in 60* triangle pockets BUT the person using this will certainly know the ins and outs.

I know of though I have not contacted latheinserts.com and the "know of" is strictly by comments on sites such as this and the website. What I did notice is that for some reason, not all items, but including IIRC some inserts, have a specific note about not being shipped to Canada. Not saying I will not end up going there, just that at first look, such a note makes me hesitate...

Edit: for me, even if this all ends up sticking strictly w HSS (and it may if what I have on order proves to be too wrong), it has been worthwhile since the amount of information in terms of coatings, chip formation etc. I think will be beneficial

PixMan
12-02-2011, 06:48 PM
Carbide seats/shims....

I have a LOT of milling cutters now, and oddly enough the only one that had seats (or shims, as your prefer) is one I sold because it used TPG42x size inserts, the insert I loathe for milling applications.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_0740-r.jpg

It's the 1-1/4" one in left-front. Note all the others don't have it. While crashing a cutter or turning tool holder in a commercial shop isn't unusual because they tend to be pushed harder than most home shops, it's a rare and almost deliberate thing at home shops. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I run the machines about 80% with my ears, 10% with the numbers I may have looked up, and 10% with what I see.

Most of my lathe tools are negative rake and all those have seats as shown in other pix on this thread. The only screw-down positive rake tools I have for lathe work are boring bars, most shown here as all but the three largest ones:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_1251-r.jpg

Negative rake tooling with seats rarely makes sense for lathes of less than 3 or 4 HP. Even though you can get negative rake inserts with some very upsharp edges, there's often a lot of wasted edge because the low power machines can't use the full depth-of-cut limits of a CNMG432 or similar insert.

With insert milling cutters I have one sort that uses not a carbide seat, but a steel wedge from behind the insert to act as a clamp and a "protection device" in the unlikely event of a crash. The more-likely situation on a 1HP Bridgeport is stalling the spindle from trying to push to hard. A chipped insert is all I'm likely to get out of that.

Here's how the Widia cutters I have (two of them) hold the SEEN43 inserts:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_0989-r.jpg

And a newer one I snagged on Ebay for $75 (loaded with inserts for cast irons and steels), a Walter F4080-UB26.076.Z05.06. It's inserts only screw down, but it looks VERY secure to me.:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_1495-r.jpg

Seats don't automatically insure better tool life, insert security or stability, but a bad one or a damaged steel pocket can certainly have an adverse effect.

Dieseldoctor
12-06-2011, 07:17 PM
When I bought my first QCTP I also bought a 5 piece set of 5/8" tool holders with inserts off Ebay. First problem was that they gave no clue to what the inserts were. No numbers on them or in any of the paperwork. The holders looked good and the inserts seem to fit good. But the inserts chip on any cut. The inserts had chip breakers so the holders were for neutral rake (flat).
Since I do some interrupted cuts I decided I would go with HSS inserts from LMS. I ordered the 11 degree 3/8" included circle ones.

Oops! The screw holes in the inserts were too small for the screws. I had some 4-40 stainless steel bolts long enough to go through insert and holder and take a nut on the bottom. The hex head fit into the countersink of the insert enough to hold it solid. Problem number 2 was that these inserts were flat so with these holders they were presented to the work with 0 rake. But still they worked pretty good giving good depth of cut and good finish.

But I still wasn't happy so I bought some 5/8 square bar, talked with Chris at LMS to order the correct screws to fit the inserts and made my own holders. I didn't like the way that the insert on the RH and LH holders had one side lined up parallel with the holder. So I cut mine with a few degrees of lead.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z59/dieseldoctor_1/Insert%20Tool%20Holders/P1010075.jpg

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z59/dieseldoctor_1/Insert%20Tool%20Holders/P1010080.jpg

I also cut pocket with 5 degrees positive rake.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z59/dieseldoctor_1/Insert%20Tool%20Holders/P1010071.jpg

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z59/dieseldoctor_1/Insert%20Tool%20Holders/P1010086.jpg

I have been very happy with the performance of these inserts. But since I made my tangential tool holder I use it for most my turning and facing.

But sometimes I need to cut some hard stuff especially cast so would like to have some qualitycarbide inserts for the original holders. Something in a grade that can take some interrupted hammering. Been looking at TNMA,TNMG, and TCMT. I hope the holes in these will take the original screws. Any suggestions from you guys that know this stuff?

RussZHC
12-06-2011, 09:06 PM
Pixman:


Seats don't automatically insure better tool life, insert security or stability, but a bad one or a damaged steel pocket can certainly have an adverse effect

would you think that the precision of the pocket surrounding the insert location would be one of the likely benefits of buying higher end tool holders once? (as opposed to "import" first and then higher quality)

lazlo
12-06-2011, 11:16 PM
would you think that the precision of the pocket surrounding the insert location would be one of the likely benefits of buying higher end tool holders once?

The insert pockets are much finer toleranced on the name-brand holders (Sandvik, Kenametal, ...) than the imports.

metalmagpie
12-07-2011, 07:40 AM
It's one thing, tedious but straightforward, to figure out nomenclature. What I see missing from this discussion is why to use each shape, or when to use it.

RussZHC
12-07-2011, 09:29 AM
Magpie: agreed, and I guess from that question, which was the first shape and what have been the reasons for other shapes becoming more prevalent while others less used...I think I can guess the reason for round but not sure why there would be say 4 diamond shapes in two "groups" 80*/75* and 55*/50*...from what I have gleaned while reading, shape has an effect on accessibility (longer more pointed parallelogram say), changes cutting forces needed (less edge but couldn't this also be controlled by size of insert) and the detail I am totally clueless on is the more sides, moving closer to round, increases tendency to vibrate but at the same time makes a stronger insert (maybe has something to do with the angle the point where the edges meet forms?)

BadDog
12-07-2011, 01:42 PM
Seems like simple triangle and square were first. 80* "C" inserts are robust and can turn to inside corner as well as face/turn without reorientation. This (along with being very available and cheap) is why they are among the most popular standard inserts, and my personal favorite. Triangle can do that too, and with more points available, but considerably less robust as well as introducing problematic negative lead angle for deeper DoC (than point rad) when used for turn/face in common (square) position. The "trigon" W inserts attempt to address that, and became more popular than the C inserts a decade or two back. The "V" (and to lesser extent the "D", which is something of a compromise between C and V) inserts are more for profiling, and so are popular on CNC and tracer lathes, though they are correspondingly more delicate and require more careful control of chip loading (i.e. CNC). The square "S" inserts have become much less popular in part because they can't turn an inside corner, though they are great oriented as a chamfer/form tool which also works for turning OR facing in proper orientation. The round inserts are mostly used on CNC machines where fine detail is not needed, but fine finish is, though they also show up as on manual lathes as form tools, and more or less "it's what i had on hand and it can give a good finish if I can keep the chatter out". But in the last decade(?) or so, the very highly specialized inserts have become more common in commercial (high tool count CNC) shops, and general purpose inserts have become less popular.

At least that's my evolving understanding (that I can recall), worth about what it cost...