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View Full Version : O/T Where were you on Dec. 7 1941



gr8life
12-06-2011, 11:11 PM
I am sure there must be a few members who are old enough to remember that day which is fast fading from our history. Wonder if a few would care to tell a little about their memories of that day.
thanks
ed
ps born in 1944 so no memory

armedandsafe
12-06-2011, 11:16 PM
Sitting on a blanket in the front yard, watching my elder sister crash her bike and break her collar bone. I was 2 years 8 months old. That is the second clear memory I have of my life. I didn't realize the significance of the day in global or national terms, of course, but I do remember the day.

Pops

MaxHeadRoom
12-06-2011, 11:38 PM
Wonder if a few would care to tell a little about their memories of that day.


Gas masks and air raid sirens, WW11 started in 1939 for us.:(
Max.

Evan
12-06-2011, 11:39 PM
That depends on whether you believe in reincarnation or not.

Forrest Addy
12-06-2011, 11:40 PM
I was four months and three days old almost to the minute. My dad said he blamed WW II on me whenever I was a particular PITA.

gwilson
12-06-2011, 11:49 PM
I was 10 months old. Not sure where I was at that age,though.

.RC.
12-06-2011, 11:51 PM
What was so special about that day?

Tony Ennis
12-06-2011, 11:59 PM
.RC., that was the day the US Navy figured out that Pearl Harbor was not a country club, but a highly strategic military base, and probably ought to be run like one. It was also the day the Battleship became obsolete.

Dr Stan
12-07-2011, 01:14 AM
Not born as of yet, but my then future father-in-law steamed into Pearl 3 days later as the C.O. of a Naval oilier. He then spent most of WWII in the South Pacific.

Mark McGrath
12-07-2011, 02:19 AM
Gas masks and air raid sirens, WW11 started in 1939 for us.:(
Max.

Yep.How true.
Sitting in an air raid shelter listening to the bombs drop,wondering why the US of A wouldn`t help us.

A.K. Boomer
12-07-2011, 08:36 AM
I was about 20 years shy of being born but its the year that my current house im living in was built.

I heard allot about it and the hitler era from my parents as if it just happened and it kinda did, now it does make me wonder - so many things that drastically altered the outcome and how now its just taken for granted, im sure some kids don't even hear about it at all growing up.

war is ugly but sometimes it has to happen, there was no mistaking the task at hand and everybody pulled together to achieve success, I just wish things were more clear for the people we put in harms way today,

war also violates a direct law of nature - instead of weeding out the weak and sickly it takes our very best and strongest from us --- there is no doubt that we and other country's for that matter have lost our very finest...


Im not a big movie buff but I just seen the hollywood version of it on the history channel yesterday - there was of course some very good graphics but it was hard for me to take Alec baldwin seriously - he just looked like he was about to crack a joke at any second... That hot babe was a huge distraction - so much so that it was kinda like watching two different shows,
even in the blood and the gore I was still checking her out, very very nice...
And yes Ben afflack did a real good job with his acting skills - but that's just the thing - you should not see a movie about pearl harbor and walk away talking about the actors... but that's hollywood - they gotta sell tickets I suppose:rolleyes:

Stepside
12-07-2011, 08:37 AM
Four months short of being born. One of my first memories is watching my dad mount some tires in the kitchen with the curtains closed. The next step was to get the tires dirty so people wouldn't know they were new. I think they came off the docks curtesy of Harry Bridges and friends. I also remember seeing my second cousin stopping by to say "goodbye" before he left for England. He was killed on his first mission when bombing the Romanian Oil refineries.

lost_cause
12-07-2011, 08:38 AM
neither of my parents had been born yet.

J Tiers
12-07-2011, 08:52 AM
Yep.How true.
............,wondering why the US of A wouldn`t help us.

The Pres at that time was doing his best to get us into the war..... The Germans would not rise to the bait he provided and do a provocation of sufficient magnitude.....

But he did manage to get the Japanese backed sufficiently into a corner to feel forced to act..... so it did eventually work. Just took a while..... Congress acts slowly, and not always in lock-step with the Pres... as you may have noticed.

He needed an overt act to kick-start Congress..... As somewhat more recent history may have pointed out......

Me? I was noplace at all at the time.

RussZHC
12-07-2011, 09:15 AM
I've always had the "what if" question...the bulk of my family were or would have been "c/o", conscientious objectors (the reason previous generations migrated was due to mandatory military service for countries that no longer exist) so some spent the war either in camps (often remote planting trees/agricultural work) or as medical staff.

I guess it never really hit home until much later how different life was for children my parents age who were living in countries where the war was actually taking place...I worked with one guy my father's age who lived in Southampton at the time...his memories were of men unable to serve and boys his age trying to sandbag important buildings and trying to get to higher stories to put out fires from the night bombing raids...very, very different life from a central Canadian farm boy

Weston Bye
12-07-2011, 09:50 AM
Foregive me if this is too political. Moderators please feel free to delete the post if necessary.

The facts first, then a comment below.

Sidwell Friends School (where the Presiden't kids go)
Lunch Menu

December 7, 2011

MS/US

Asian Mushroom Soup
Oriental Noodle Salad
Classic Spinach Salad
Teriyaki Marinated Chicken Strips
Szechuan Tofu & Veggies
Garlic Roasted Edamame
Vegetable Fried Rice
Fortune Cookies


I perfer to hope that this was just an unfortunate oversight, committed by someone who probably wasn't around in 1941 or has no significant education in US history. Never attrbute to malice that which can be explained by incompetance (or simple ignorance). Sadly, we are forgetting our past.

AK Boomer: The movie Pearl Harbor was not presented as a war movie. Rather, it was a love story that was badly inconvenienced by a war.

Mcgyver
12-07-2011, 10:04 AM
Sidwell Friends School (where the Presiden't kids go)
Lunch Menu

December 7, 2011

MS/US

Asian Mushroom Soup
Oriental Noodle Salad
Classic Spinach Salad
Teriyaki Marinated Chicken Strips
Szechuan Tofu & Veggies
Garlic Roasted Edamame
Vegetable Fried Rice
Fortune Cookies





can you share how you got that menu and/or how you know its athenticity?

A.K. Boomer
12-07-2011, 10:09 AM
AK Boomer: The movie Pearl Harbor was not presented as a war movie. Rather, it was a love story that was badly inconvenienced by a war.


very well put...

Weston Bye
12-07-2011, 10:16 AM
A link to the school website:

http://www.sidwell.edu/students/index.aspx

Sad to say, it's all over the web now, and being spun.

lynnl
12-07-2011, 10:19 AM
The 70th and last gathering of the Pearl Harbor Survivors Association is being held at the Battleship Alabama memorial park in Mobile today. So sad, only a few remain.

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/12/pearl_harbor_70th_anniversary.html

I thought about going down for that, but it's a long drive from here.

Mcgyver
12-07-2011, 10:27 AM
A link to the school website:

http://www.sidwell.edu/students/index.aspx

Sad to say, it's all over the web now, and being spun.

wow, thanks, on first read it seem so out there that i wondered if it could true or another internet hoax.....that is something!

justanengineer
12-07-2011, 11:04 AM
My Grandfather was a tool maker for a radio manufacturing company located in NYC during WW2. He was 30 at the time and my father was 3. I never asked either much about this subject in particular, but my father once mentioned off handedly that Gpa worked some rather ridiculous hours during the war, which is probably a good chunk of the reason why he moved back onto the farm with his father and grandfather in 1946.

Weston Bye
12-07-2011, 11:14 AM
At the time, my Grandfather had an excavating and trucking company in Flint. The next morning, Dec 8, he received a phone call to get every truck that he could put on the road and start hauling sand to the site that would become the Grand Blanc Tank Plant.

http://www.flintjournal.com/20thcentury/1940/1940victory.html

They had to get the sand out of the pits before the ground started to freeze up.

Chip_er
12-07-2011, 11:29 AM
an old x milatary man told me that pearl harbour was aloud to happened so to join the war!
you think!

lynnl
12-07-2011, 11:49 AM
an old x milatary man told me that pearl harbour was aloud to happened so to join the war!
you think!

By 'allowed', I assume you're referring to the magnitude or surprise factor. The Japs are the ones who allowed it to happen.

That's the theory advanced by some people. Especially the suggestion that Churchill knew well in advance. I certainly can buy that idea, since the British had by that time gotten access to the German enigma machines and codes, ...though decoding success was somewhat sporadic as the germans would periodically issue new code books. At any rate, the germans had apparently given some of the older enigma technology to the Japs, so it's possible, maybe even likely, that Churchill did know in advance. If so it's only militarily prudent that he not divulge information gained through that medium, to avoid tipping off the nazis that their security is compromised.

From what I've seen/heard/read, I'm not convinced that Roosevelt had prior knowledge. But IF he had I can well imagine him welcoming the event. Neverthless, there would be little incentive for him to not warn the military. An attack is an attack by the japs, whether expected or surprise; so his purpose (getting the US involved) would be served either way.

Whether any of it's true or not is pretty much immaterial, though it does make for interesting speculation and debate.

Orrin
12-07-2011, 12:22 PM
I was too young to remember the day, but was old enough to be terroized by the war. One of my brothers kept me in line by telling me that the Germans would come and get me if I didn't behave. He kept me petrified for the duration.

Orrin

Jim Hubbell
12-07-2011, 12:24 PM
I heard about the attack in school when the principal informed us all. I must have been in the 4th or 5th grade.

Tony Ennis
12-07-2011, 12:58 PM
The Japs are the ones who allowed it to happen.

I reject this assertion. I believe the disaster at Pearl Harbor happened because the US Navy was lax. We knew war was coming sooner than later - this was common knowledge in military circles. We didn't know when it was coming, however, until the same day, or some such (though there is speculation that Washington never told Pearl's base commander at all, due to security risks - we were decrypting Japanese diplomatic messages at that time.) Also, get this - the US Navy leased the communications line between Washington and Pearl and had to pay for the usage, so they sent as little information as possible to save money!

But the fact is, it was a politically tense time with a formidable enemy whose fleet had disappeared from intelligence reports. The Pearl commander didn't have picket ships out, didn't have air patrols, didn't have his men on any type of alert. We even saw the incoming air attack on RADAR and ignored it. The operators didn't even have instructions to challenge or report huge unexplained aircraft squadrons. In fact, the base commander was swayed to by his subordinates' wives' complaints about their husbands having to perform military duty including things like "being on station on a Sunday."

A commander who was paying attention might have thwarted or blunted the attack by detecting the task force or scrambling fighters. A 2 hour warning would have allowed the BBs to have built steam and started moving out of the harbor, for example. We could have met the bombers coming in with the planes that were savaged on the airstrip. We could not not have been less prepared which is remarkable given how much information was out there.

I don't know if we knew about the attack materially in advance. I really don't buy it but who knows. I doubt Churchill knew it because chances are the Germans didn't know it, more than perhaps a vague reference.

Now, I'll make the following assertions:

#1 - The disaster at Pearl Harbor saved American lives. Imagine what would have happened had our BBs steamed out and engaged that Japanese task force which sported at least 4 first-class aircraft carriers? They would have been under constant attack and would have been destroyed with a tremendous loss of life, out in the open ocean. The Japanese removed fundamentally worthless vessels from our inventory with a relative small loss of life.

Also, the loss of the BBs to a carrier force silenced the Navy's 'Battleship Mafia' and allowed a forward thinking Navy command to order carriers, instead of more now-obsolete BBs.

#2 - The Japanese won WW2. They were fighting for an empire and for respect. Now they have both.

#3 - The Japanese could have honorably surrendered after Midway.

#4 - We won at Midway as much out of luck as skill and military intelligence.

I could go on all day :D

loose nut
12-07-2011, 01:50 PM
Most of those "fundamentally worthless" vessels where re-floated, repaired and went on to serve in the war. The some of the last big ship action took place in the pacific near Savo (??? spelling) island and again near the Philippines after the US troops landed there.

The role may have changed but there is a reason that the BB's have been mothballed and not scrapped, they have a usefulness from time to time.

Now the aircraft carrier mafia runs the US navy and refuse to admit how vulnerable the big carriers are.

lost_cause
12-07-2011, 01:55 PM
i'm too young to know everything that went on in this country post war, but i do know we were already starting the trend of buying and importing japanese products in volume by the 60's-70's (or possibly before?) 20-30 years later it was fine to do business, but now 70 years later one school has a meal themed on asian cuisine on that anniversary (not even specifically japanese cuisine) and people are having an issue with it?

i get so frustrated with a lot of my fellow citizens in this country because of things like this. we spend so much time evaluating and wasting time and money on ridiculous details. it's just like displaying the flag. i don't do it on my property because i'm certain i'd get into a fistfight with some busybody because they told me i didn't do it right. i've overheard people complain because someone didn't lower it to half mast on a certain day, or they left it out overnight without a light on it. be proud that they are doing what they do, and find a more important cause to address.

Tony Ennis
12-07-2011, 02:03 PM
Most of those "fundamentally worthless" vessels where re-floated, repaired and went on to serve in the war.

I think 6 of the BBs were refloated. Some of Arizona's big rifles were put on other ships. Some of them were made into short batteries on Hawaii.


The some of the last big ship action took place in the pacific near Savo (??? spelling) island and again near the Philippines after the US troops landed there.

There were only a few BB vs BB encounters in WW2 and they were interesting side-shows. BBs were reduced to shore-bombardment platforms. Adm Halsey nearly ganked a huge landing force by chasing an elusive 'decisive BB engagement' with the Japanese. The only thing that saved us was the uncharacteristic timidity of the Japanese admiral and the tenacity of some 'jeep' carriers and other surface vessels left behind to guard the beachhead.



The role may have changed but there is a reason that the BB's have been mothballed and not scrapped, they have a usefulness from time to time.


Other than to wave the flag, I can't really imagine what it is. Other ships are better cruise missile platforms. Frequently, enemies are not within 20 miles of sea.


Now the aircraft carrier mafia runs the US navy and refuse to admit how vulnerable the big carriers are.

The Chinese are rumored to have an ICBM specifically designed to take out carriers at sea. I don't think any vessel at sea is safe from attack. A near miss from a small nuke will ruin any vessel.

lynnl
12-07-2011, 03:56 PM
I reject this assertion. ......

#4 - We won at Midway as much out of luck as skill and military intelligence.

I could go on all day :D

Tony, I'm not sure what assertion you think you're rejecting, but it appears to me that it's not the one I was asserting. I wasn't referring to the outcome or our response (or lack of), but simply the fact that there was an attack and the japanese did it. :D
In other words, I was picking nits with the wording of the question it addressed - "what allowed Pearl Harbor?" <the attack> Would've been clearer if I'd used a less passive word than "allowed."

Yep, viewed with the clarity hindsight offers there was much bungling that contributed mightily to the success the japs enjoyed.

Regarding Midway: If we're going to reject assertions, I think your item 4 above is a good candidate. The intelligence factor was all-important in that event. Without that intelligence coup (i.e. the water treatment ploy to bait the japanese into revealing their target) then we'd never have had the forces in place to counter their task force.

But you are right in that actually defeating the japanese navy was largely a matter of luck. A book I read just a couple of months ago sheds a completely new light on the battle of Midway. In "A Dawn Like Thunder" The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight, by Robert J Mrazek (a former US congressman, from Rhode Island I think) he develops the evidence that dispite the reports indicating the positions of the japanese, Adm Pete Mitscher sent his attacking force off on a wild goose chase, and then lied about it in his after-action report. Commander Waldron knew they were going in the wrong direction and broke off from the main group with his squadron.

This isn't just wild speculation. One of the pilots lost at midway, An Ensign Kelly was the son of a wealthy Buick dealer in Baltimore. The father died shortly after the war and left a large estate to a foundation honoring his son. Many years later Bowen Heisheit, a prominent Maryland lawyer who had been a fraternity brother, of Ensign Kelly just happened across information that was inconsistent with official reports, and that prompted him to start investigating the facts. Mr Heisheit was not just any lawyer. He had some extremely impressive credentials in celestial navigation. After much thorough research he published his findings, which despite initial rejection by the navy, was ultimately accepted (by Admiral Thomas Moorer, who was Chairman of the JCS by the time, under President Nixon)

Robert Mrazek published his book in 2008. I highly recommend it. It covers much more than just the Midway battle, including activities of unit members leading up to the war, and following the unit through Guadalcanal.

Tony Ennis
12-07-2011, 04:41 PM
Yep, viewed with the clarity hindsight offers there was much bungling that contributed mightily to the success the japs enjoyed.

I don't think hindsight has much to do with it. The base commander was lax by any definition.



Regarding Midway: If we're going to reject assertions, I think your item 4 above is a good candidate. The intelligence factor was all-important in that event. Without that intelligence coup (i.e. the water treatment ploy to bait the japanese into revealing their target) then we'd never have had the forces in place to counter their task force.

But you are right in that actually defeating the japanese navy was largely a matter of luck.

We're in complete agreement. Luck is lots of things, like Nagumo having a deck full of planes when we hit. Like the Japanese CAP being pulled down low by the savaged torpedo planes, allowing a relative cakewalk for the dive bombers. By good fortune, we got the first blow in, which saved us from most of the retaliation.

I forgot about the 'water' intelligence coup. That's was pretty smart, heh.


In "A Dawn Like Thunder" The True Story of Torpedo Squadron Eight, by Robert J Mrazek.... 2008

I'll look that up, thanks for the reference.

aostling
12-07-2011, 04:51 PM
I was five months old, living on Viewmont Way in the Magnolia district of Seattle. That is on the route from Pier 91 to Fort Lawton, so from 1945 to 1946 I remember many convoys on my street, bringing the soldiers home from the war in the Pacific. Even though I was only four, this made a big impression. There were hundreds of jeeps, and duck boats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_boat in those convoys too.

Oldbrock
12-07-2011, 05:13 PM
Ducking under the bushes as a Stuka flew overhead. Turned out it was a captured one the RAF boys were trying out. This was in North Wales 20 miles south of Liverpool. Peter

Lew Hartswick
12-07-2011, 05:36 PM
I see there are some real youngsters here. :-)

<neither of my parents had been born yet.>

But also maybe a few as old as me.

<I heard about the attack in school when the principal informed us all. I must have been in the 4th or 5th grade.>

So I was at the farm of my Great Uncles (my mothers uncles) and we
heard it on a Radio powered by a Delco power plant. This was a bank
of lead acid batteries charged by a small motor generator. I was
just over 9 years old. This was in central PA.
All through the war I kept track of the advances etc. with straight
pins that had a tiny flag of the various countries attached stuck into
a large map of the pacific on the wall. Dad worked in a brass mill and
was exempt but was 4F due to his feet anyway. A bunch of my
cousins and one uncle were in the war and thankfully none were
killed.

Now the later "Police Action" is an entirely different matter. :-)
...lew...

toolmaker76
12-07-2011, 05:44 PM
16 years before I was born- one of the toolmakers I worked with when I was an apprentice had been in medical school when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. He dropped out of school to enlist, navy I think. After the war he never made it back to continue his pursuit of a medical career, somehow wound up being a tool and die maker instead.

It has struck me several times over the years- of course we honor those who gave their lives in service of our country, paying the ultimate sacrifice. However, I have often felt that service in itself was a sacrifice; not just those who put their lives on hold to serve, and served well under the cruelest conditions, but also their families who did without them/ supported them while they were gone.

aostling
12-07-2011, 05:51 PM
That depends on whether you believe in reincarnation or not.

Perhaps in your case. Who do you think you were?

Al Messer
12-07-2011, 06:38 PM
I was a bit over 3 years old and we were at my Grandfather's home in the country and the battery on his radio was dead so we did not find out about the war until we returned home later in the week.

Al

Evan
12-07-2011, 06:47 PM
Asian Mushroom Soup
Oriental Noodle Salad
Classic Spinach Salad
Teriyaki Marinated Chicken Strips
Szechuan Tofu & Veggies
Garlic Roasted Edamame
Vegetable Fried Rice
Fortune Cookies

I perfer to hope that this was just an unfortunate oversight, committed by someone who probably wasn't around in 1941 or has no significant education in US history. Never attrbute to malice that which can be explained by incompetance (or simple ignorance). Sadly, we are forgetting our past.



That is a Chinese menu. Teriyaki is as much Chinese as it is Japanese and the rest is Chinese. Szechuan is a Chinese province and fortune cookies were invented in the US by a Chinese immigrant. China was one of the allies of the US during WW II.

Weston Bye
12-07-2011, 07:28 PM
That is a Chinese menu. Teriyaki is as much Chinese as it is Japanese and the rest is Chinese. Szechuan is a Chinese province and fortune cookies were invented in the US by a Chinese immigrant. China was one of the allies of the US during WW II.

Just so, but Asian, a fact lost on those who sought to make an issue of it. Fortunately, the story failed to get traction and went nowhere.

Evan
12-07-2011, 07:29 PM
Who do you think you were?

Perhaps a Brahmin monk. Maybe that's why I like Pureland Chanting. (http://www.buddhanet.net/filelib/mp3/chanting/09_-_Great_Compassion_Mantra.mp3) (MP3 download 3.9MB)

Weston Bye
12-07-2011, 07:57 PM
Just so, but Asian, a fact lost on those who sought to make an issue of it. Fortunately, the story failed to get traction and went nowhere.
Indeed, the Washington Post and the Huffington Post and Drudge were the only major outlets to make much of it. WaPo's was an apologetic, HuffPo dug pretty deep to find some lame low-level conservative outrage, and Drudge posted it, I suppose to see if conservative outrage would happen. It didn't.

I lamented the story in a previous post as lack of historical memory.

By the way, I had pizza for supper.:o

Evan
12-07-2011, 08:05 PM
By the way, I had pizza for supper

Was it from Benito's Pizza with 23 locations in Michigan? :D

[Including Grand Blanc)

http://www.benitospizza.com/index.php?a=

Weston Bye
12-07-2011, 08:12 PM
Nah, only a diGorno's oven pizza left over from day before yesterday, and eaten cold. Satisfying enough in my weakened state. I go to the doctor tomorrow for the pathology report.

wierdscience
12-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Indeed, the Washington Post and the Huffington Post and Drudge were the only major outlets to make much of it. WaPo's was an apologetic, HuffPo dug pretty deep to find some lame low-level conservative outrage, and Drudge posted it, I suppose to see if conservative outrage would happen. It didn't.

I lamented the story in a previous post as lack of historical memory.

By the way, I had pizza for supper.:o

Actually none of that list is Chinese or Japanese food with the possible exception of the Tofu.Mostly Americanized or invented from whole cloth as the case is with the Fortune cookie:)

I wasn't even a dream yet in 41',but my Father remembers hearing FDR's address on the radio.

My oldest neighbor was sitting in his car wondering why cars were backing up on the road into the base at PH.He soon realized when a Japanese plane made a strafing pass at the cars a few hundred feet in front of his:eek:

He was a civilian welder at PH and was on his way to work to pick up a buddy in the Navy for a Golf game they had planned.Needless to say they didn't make the appointment.He spent the next 2 weeks working 18 and 20 hour days at the base.

Mcgyver
12-07-2011, 09:12 PM
Actually none of that list is Chinese or Japanese food with the possible exception of the Tofu..

Really?

Teriyaki, Edamame & Rice are very Japanese in origin and common use. Edamame is found elsewhere, but when you call it that its Japanese. How can Szechuan be anything but Chinese? here or there these foods absolutely get grouped that way

The typical western person probably hasn't been there and probably doesn't much distinguish between different Asian groups, however the menu wasn't done as choice in poor taste (:) ), but done in ignorance; the chef hadn't a clue what day it was and that it might not be the best day to celebrate Asian/japan cuisine in the good of US of A

Grind Hard
12-07-2011, 09:48 PM
Certain people that got together and conceived children who later paired off with other war-couple offspring and produced my siblings and I. The initial pairing happened because of WW2.... Grandfather was assigned by the Army Air Corps to visit a factory to figure out why these new-fangled "RADAR" units were DOA.

There he met a young woman who proved that they were fine when they left the plant, that either something was happening during transit or they were being installed wrong... or they were being operated improperly.

For years you could get a lively bit of "FFFFTTTT!! HISSSSS" out of the both of them by bringing this up in conversation.

HER: THEY WERE FINE WHEN THEY LEFT! I PUT MY NAME ON EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!

HIM: YES THAT BATCH WAS FINE WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THEM?!

:D

This meeting would have never taken place without Pearl Harbor kicking off the war.

:)

Carld
12-07-2011, 09:55 PM
I was four months old and was sleeping or feeding or getting my diaper changed.

wierdscience
12-07-2011, 10:13 PM
Really?

Teriyaki, Edamame & Rice are very Japanese in origin and common use. Edamame is found elsewhere, but when you call it that its Japanese. How can Szechuan be anything but Chinese? here or there these foods absolutely get grouped that way

The typical western person probably hasn't been there and probably doesn't much distinguish between different Asian groups, however the menu wasn't done as choice in poor taste (:) ), but done in ignorance; the chef hadn't a clue what day it was and that it might not be the best day to celebrate Asian/japan cuisine in the good of US of A

Ya,and HF used to sell a drillpress they called a Milling machine,even though it really was Chinese:D

I'd be willing to bet everything on that menu is throughly westernized including cheap Soy sauce.The food my friends serve at home is vastly different than what they serve at their Chinese resturant:)

J Tiers
12-07-2011, 10:33 PM
Really?

Teriyaki, Edamame & Rice are very Japanese in origin and common use. Edamame is found elsewhere, but when you call it that its Japanese. How can Szechuan be anything but Chinese? here or there these foods absolutely get grouped that way

The typical western person probably hasn't been there and probably doesn't much distinguish between different Asian groups, however the menu wasn't done as choice in poor taste (:) ), but done in ignorance; the chef hadn't a clue what day it was and that it might not be the best day to celebrate Asian/japan cuisine in the good of US of A


Whatever it was, it wasn't either Japanese or chinese...... pure American is more like it.

What we get here with chinese names on it is unknown in china.... I recall some time ago when I got back from 3 weeks in china etc on business, being fed very well indeed by vendors, some friends (one of them chinese ethnicity) and my wife took me to a chinese restaurant, one of the best in town.

I was shocked, I had forgotten the slop we get under the label "chinese"...... But our chinese friend did NOT order off-menu, which is how you get the best stuff there....

Over there, I had very good food in some of the dirtiest looking restaurants.... from teh outside, or on the stairs up.... inside, all different.

Chinese food......in china..... very possibly the best food in the world.

Don Young
12-07-2011, 10:37 PM
I was 10 years old and coming home from a movie with my dad, sister and new step-mother. It was in Memphis, Tennessee and we heard the newspaper boys yelling "Extra! Read all about it! Japanese attack Pearl Harbor".

I remember how badly the war went for the US for a long time in the Pacific. I also remember the reports of both Japanese and German submarines along our coastlines and how both landed personnel on shore. I think there was some sabotage from them, at least along the Atlantic coast.

I remember rationing of gas, tires, meat, sugar, and shoes. I remember you couldn't often get Hershey bars or good chewing gum. Some imported gum crumbled when you chewed it. Cigarettes were called "Stoops", meaning "Stoop under the counter and pull out a pack", because they were so scarce. None of my family suffered any misfortune or really hard times, but I know a lot did.

Mcgyver
12-07-2011, 11:02 PM
Whatever it was, it wasn't either Japanese or chinese...... pure American is more like it.
.

on that we probably agree, if you're at the top of the food chain there, life is good eating in the best places. meat, poultry, fish, shellfish and vegetables. No dairy and almost no carbs....rice is for subsistence and not really eaten by the wealthy locals. super healthy diet.

I found the flavours excellent, but I am no comfortable with eating every part of the animal and have the entire animal presented in front of me. I like eating the meat of the animal and nothing more.....perhaps irrational conditioning but it is what it is. It can be a lot of fun there, but does it ever feel good when you get back to hong kong and have a single malt and a meal devoid of heads and cartilage.

J Tiers
12-07-2011, 11:57 PM
I found the flavours excellent, but I am no comfortable with eating every part of the animal and have the entire animal presented in front of me. I like eating the meat of the animal and nothing more.....perhaps irrational conditioning but it is what it is. It can be a lot of fun there, but does it ever feel good when you get back to hong kong and have a single malt and a meal devoid of heads and cartilage.


I had a rule.... I made it up after going to lunch with a vendor and people from a semi-competitor of ours...... they kinda shied away from some stuff, and I decides that was rude and embarrassing..... So my rule was: if it was in front of me , I ate it. And I ate it as the locals did.....

Only exceptions..... it had to be cooked, and I would not eat the "little green thing" in a crab.....no idea what it is, but I was warned before going.

I didn't care if it looked like a big insect (prawns, whole, 500mm long with antennae), I ate it. No idea what I ate, it all tasted good.

EDIT: I am sure I ate dog, and whatever else. Didn't ask.

Oh, the ONE time I was ill from food was in a western restaurant in a hotel..... taken there by someone who thought we'd prefer it.... NOT, although we politely accepted the meal.

Anyway, this is a diversion.....

The idea of that meal menu was probably some sort of "we are over that by now" thought. And to a large extent we are......... Our then enemies are all our allies now, and some of our allies are now our direct enemies.....

I have the luxury of not needing to recall PH as an incitement to hate the aggressors.... Due in large part to being born later.... in time for the Korean war.... providing a timely deferment for my father.

And understanding that the intent was, in very typical Japanese style, to present the declaration of war to the US government just before and essentially simultaneously with, the attack..... That would have been considered honorable, but in the event, it didn't happen that way.

Tony Ennis
12-08-2011, 12:04 AM
I would like to think I would be as adventurous as JTiers, but I would not eat dog.

J Tiers
12-08-2011, 12:04 AM
deleted duplicate

wierdscience
12-08-2011, 12:13 AM
I found the flavours excellent, but I am no comfortable with eating every part of the animal and have the entire animal presented in front of me. I like eating the meat of the animal and nothing more.....perhaps irrational conditioning but it is what it is. It can be a lot of fun there, but does it ever feel good when you get back to hong kong and have a single malt and a meal devoid of heads and cartilage.

It's purely conditioning,the traditional western diet isn't that different than the Asian diet in terms of parts consumed.Head cheese,Haggis.Ox tail etc just to name a few.

Oddest thing I ever ate was roasted Goat head,very good actually,once you get past the eyes:D

Evan
12-08-2011, 01:50 AM
There is a major competitor to MacDonald's in China called Scorpion King. Scorpions are apparently a delicacy there.

This is a top seller, scorpion soup.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/scorpsoup.jpg

beanbag
12-08-2011, 02:46 AM
That is a Chinese menu. Teriyaki is as much Chinese as it is Japanese and the rest is Chinese. Szechuan is a Chinese province and fortune cookies were invented in the US by a Chinese immigrant. China was one of the allies of the US during WW II.

That is an interesting comment. I know there are lots of brown colored sauces in Chinese cooking, but I have never had anything similar to Teriyaki sauce. Also, I doubt the salads are Chinese, as they don't like to eat uncooked leaf vegetables due to food safety concerns.

mike4
12-08-2011, 02:53 AM
Most of those "fundamentally worthless" vessels where re-floated, repaired and went on to serve in the war. The some of the last big ship action took place in the pacific near Savo (??? spelling) island and again near the Philippines after the US troops landed there.

The role may have changed but there is a reason that the BB's have been mothballed and not scrapped, they have a usefulness from time to time.

Now the aircraft carrier mafia runs the US navy and refuse to admit how vulnerable the big carriers are.

Not born at the time,Battle ships and carriers can be taken out by a single land based missile , the carriers are far more vulnerable as most of the Battleships have the capacity to carry missiles and their big guns which together would be a potential PIA to agressors if used with discression, not just blast away with everthing and leave yoursekf defensless.
Michael

Circlip
12-08-2011, 03:45 AM
,Battle ships and carriers can be taken out by a single land based missile

Or in the case of the one that got away, a couple of Mk. 8's

Regards Ian.

J Tiers
12-08-2011, 08:24 AM
ANY "large asset" is a target. And any assault on a remote area has to involve larger assets.

There really has never been an invasion of a heavily defended continental coast remote from a base in history.... Always there has been a relatively close base, as with the invasion of Europe, from South or North. Other invasions have been of less well defended areas, islands, etc. And even there, larger ships and carriers were always in use.

The chinese are not interested in becoming the first such target, and sensibly (from their lights) have prepared for it.

PH was in no way an invasion at all, it was a "strike", thought to be sufficient to neutralize a serious threat to the Japanese, while "cowing" the enemy (us). For various reasons, it didn't work the way it was supposed to.


There is a major competitor to MacDonald's in China called Scorpion King. Scorpions are apparently a delicacy there.

This is a top seller, scorpion soup.



Out in the western areas of china, our tech rep had the interesting experience of "drinking" scorpions.....

According to what he said, the locals pull the stingers, then the scorpion (a small one) goes in the mug of beer.... not unlike the worm.... except that the scorpion is swallowed along with the rest... major wuss you are if you chew the scorpion before swallowing.....

SteveF
12-08-2011, 09:27 AM
The role may have changed but there is a reason that the BB's have been mothballed and not scrapped, they have a usefulness from time to time.


FYI, Iowa and Wisconsin are being turned into museum ships. The Navy no longer has any battleships in the reserve fleet.

Steve

gizmo2
12-08-2011, 09:28 AM
My father in law, Michael Soley, was one of the few marines that survived the USS Arizona attack. He was also captain of the basketball team, and I hear his team took the division title that year.

He had just come on duty, and was on his way up aft conning tower when the attack started. He grabbed a friend, made it down and dove off the ship. By then the water around the ship was ablaze and he was badly burned, and he spent the first 10 months in the infirmary while his eyes healed. While I don't know the truth of the events, as there are several versions of the story, that is the way I tell it... He is mentioned in Dick Camp's book, 'Battleship Arizona's Marines at War.'

He went on to serve in the Pacific theatre, then Korea, then as a recruiter during Vietnam. All a great source of pride for his family, but much to the demise of his wife and children. He saw too much combat and it made him mad. After being removed from duty he lived out his life in California; I came along later and never met the man. I doubt he would have had much to say about it though; I've yet to meet a vet that saw combat willing to talk about it to anyone but their combat buddies.

Pherdie
12-08-2011, 09:34 AM
My father's cousin recently shared the following with me and I share it with you:

"As I type this I realize that the 70th anniversary of that occasion (Pearl Harbor) will be coming up this week ….and I hope that it will be properly acknowledged. That day my father had taken me to see the NYGiants play football at Polo Grounds in Manhattan and the loudspeaker system kept making strange announcements requesting specific Admirals, Generals, Colonels, etc to come to the main office. We didn’t know why til the evening when we climbed up from the subway station in Brooklyn and saw kids selling ‘Extras’. And I still remember the newspapers and newsreels of the time showing the Japanese ambassador visiting the White House the previous days."

Evan
12-08-2011, 10:22 AM
That is an interesting comment. I know there are lots of brown colored sauces in Chinese cooking, but I have never had anything similar to Teriyaki sauce. Also, I doubt the salads are Chinese, as they don't like to eat uncooked leaf vegetables due to food safety concerns.

Teriyaki is a Japanese method of cooking. The "Teriyaki sauce" used isn't served in Japan. It most probably came from China.

Tony Ennis
12-08-2011, 10:59 AM
Battle ships and carriers can be taken out by a single land based missile

Very true. I don't know how our carriers will do against a first-rate opponent. I suppose the strategy is to not fight first-rate opponents. I have heard that modern (non-nuclear) missiles are not built to defeat the type of armor carried by WW2 BBs. This was one reason some BBs (Iowa, Missouri) were un-mothballed for a while, around 1980.


the carriers are far more vulnerable as most of the Battleships have the capacity to carry missiles and their big guns which together would be a potential PIA to agressors if used with discression, not just blast away with everthing and leave yoursekf defensless.
Michael

I don't think any of this is accurate. If you're talking WW2 era, the carrier's combat air patrol and recon planes gave the carriers better eyes than the BB could ever have. The carrier could spot targets at perhaps 250 miles and destroy them. The BBs depend on other vessels for this function. In addition, a BB had to be within 25 miles to be effective. There is a reason BBs were relegated to shore bombardment by 1942.

In the modern era, the difference between the two types of vessels is more striking, with the BB falling even farther behind. Sure, the BBs have been modernized to carry cruise missiles, but there are modern ships that do it better and cheaper.

I think BBs are beautiful pieces of architecture and design, but they truly are dinosaurs.

Asquith
12-09-2011, 06:51 PM
A friend and I were talking about this in the pub last night. He pointed out that the Japanese method of attack was ‘inspired’ by the success of a British naval air attack on an Italian naval fleet at Taranto, which the Japanese studied very carefully.

He also pointed out that tomorrow (10 December) is the anniversary of the sinking of two HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse (battleship and battle cruiser) by Japanese air and submarine attack.

HMS Prince of Wales was fairly new, and had first seen action before she was properly commissioned, being involved in the hunt for the Bismarck. Bismarck’s fate was sealed when the steering was damaged by a torpedo launch from one of the ponderous Fairey Swordfish biplanes (which were the type of aircraft that attacked Taranto). They were brave men flying and navigating those Swordfish, moving slowly at very low level.

Going back to Japanese air attacks, an octogenarian friend, Bob Cox, served on the aircraft carrier HMS Formidable, one of seventeen British Commonwealth carriers involved in the battle of Okinanwa. He told me that they had several direct hits by kamikaze planes, but were saved by their armoured deck.

Bob is a true gentleman, and an industrial history enthusiast, and despite his age is one of two regular stokers at our steam museum.

Tony Ennis
12-09-2011, 07:19 PM
...sinking of ... HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse...

This put the nail in the Battleship Mafia's coffin. One could argue that Pearl Harbor only proved that carrier aircraft could hit large stationary targets. "Ah, if those BBs were in the open seas with their flags a-flyin, they would have shot down those Japanese and sailed straight to Tokyo!"

Then, a few days later, a relatively small number of typical Japanese (land-based) aircraft found and destroyed two superb first-line warships. There was nothing left to argue after that. One could not fault the warships, because the British know how to build a ship. One could not fault the sailors, because they were British.

The thing was that, on 12/7/1941, all the rules changed.

gnm109
12-09-2011, 09:15 PM
Here are some photos that are said to have been in a Brownie Camera undeveloped for many years. I was but a small tot at the time. I do recall the dropping of the Atomic Bombs being reported in the newspaper.


http://groups.google.com/group/spss2008/browse_thread/thread/d32caeca8b7b5505/e8f8e9d9603d4988?q=PEarl+Harbor+Brownie

flylo
12-09-2011, 10:23 PM
I was just a twincle in my dads eye. My first memory is when JFK was killed.

aostling
12-09-2011, 11:23 PM
Here are some photos that are said to have been in a Brownie Camera undeveloped for many years.

My first thought was: no way could a Brownie make photos as detailed as these. Brownies had a simple meniscus lens. But I looked this one up in one of my camera-collecting books and learned something – this is a No. 3 Kodak Brownie from 1910-34, and it had a cemented doublet achromatic lens. It used size 124 film and registered a negative size of 3-1/4 x 4-1/4. It had three Waterhouse stops. It was the best of Brownies.

[edit] I don't know how many exposures it would register on a 124 roll of film – about 12 I'd guess, certainly not 30+ as shown.