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JCHannum
12-18-2011, 09:07 PM
Early last month, Simpson's had quite a few Swedish 1867 Rolling Blocks for sale. Some had been de-milled by having the chamber welded and were offered at $195.00.

I took a chance and ordered one, figuring it was a good price for a roller action alone. Being an antique, it shipped directly without going through an FFL. When it arrived, I was pleasantly surprised by the condition it was in. Metal and wood wood in good shape, the gun was complete and functional with all numbers matching.

The chamber had about a 1/2" bolt TIG welded inside with no damage to the breech or extractor. The firing pin hole had also been TIGged closed. I pulled the barrel and drilled and bored out the plug. While the chamber could have been salvaged, the 8X58RD chambering was not to my liking. I shortened the barrel 6" to 24", installed a liner from TJ's and chambered to 357 magnum.

I had to bush the breechblock as the TIG welding had created an HAZ that refused to yield to a HSS drill. The rest of the project consisted of reinstalling the front sight, shortening the forearm, stripping the wood and giving it an oil finish. I elected not to refinish the metal as is is in good shape and has the various proof, inspection and rebuild markings that trace the history of the gun from when it was manufactured in 1872.

I got a brief chance to take it to the range and give it a try last week and am pleased with its performance. It shoots very close to point of aim at 25 yards with the lower leaf of the two leaf rear sight and seems to shoot fairly flat out to 50 yards. It was a bit too cold to do any extensive shooting, but it looks like it is a keeper.

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn351/jchannum/P1100625.jpg

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn351/jchannum/P1100633.jpg

Frank46
12-19-2011, 01:16 AM
Your rolling block with the shorter barrel really looks nice. I've been toying with the idea of putting a 44 special caliber barrel on mine. Sort of a carbine type bbl about 22" long and slightly heavier than the origional bbl. I've seen one done up as a 45colt and looked to be a very nice looking rifle. Think he had a 20" long bbl on the 45 colt. Very nice work. Thanks for sharing. Frank

loose nut
12-19-2011, 10:10 AM
This question is showing my ignorance but why does a single shot rifle like that have to be decommissioned before it can be sold. Full auto weapons I can understand but a single shot. Is this a US law or a Swedish export law.:confused:

JCHannum
12-19-2011, 03:01 PM
Thanks Frank, it did make up into a trim gun. If you are considering 44 Special, take a look at 44 Magnum or even 444 Marlin, they all share the same basic case. I went with 357 Magnum as I have a revolver in that caliber and it will share components and reloading tooling.

As I understand, the chambers were welded due to a Swedish law. Functioning guns must be kept in locked storage. If a gun is to be used in open display, it must be deactivated. Apparently a large number of these received this treatment.

These guns have quite a history behind Them. this one was originally manufactured as a 12mm military weapon. It was manufactured under Remington license by Carl Gustave. In 1893, it was converted to 8X58R. At this time, it was rebarreled, the hammer and breechblock were replaced, the extractor converted from sliding to rotary and the receiver re-heat treated. This conversion was also done by Carl Gustave.

At some point in the early 1900's it was converted for civilian use. The full length military forestock was shortened and the handguard removed. The brass medalion in the buttstock removed and the "checkering" applied. The barrel was shortened to 30" and ramp front and two leaf folding rear sight installed.

motorcyclemac
12-19-2011, 05:10 PM
Here is a rolling block I built for one of my customers. It is chambered in 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. The barrel is 28 inches Varmint profile. Weighs in at 15 pounds with glass.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/IMG_1066.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/IMG_1065.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/IMG_1064.jpg

motorcyclemac
12-19-2011, 05:20 PM
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/IMG_1068.jpg

I had to build a custom extractor as the 6.5x55 is a rimless design. The trigger pull is 2.0 pounds. The gun is strictly a bench rest tool and routinely shoots 1/4 moa with cast bullets. The rolling block is such a wonderful platform for MANY MANY caliber conversions.

motorcyclemac
12-19-2011, 05:37 PM
The rolling block action is very strong. The pivot pins for the rolling block and hammer are not an integral part of the strength. They are only there to keep the block and hammer in place so that the recoil load can be directed to the receiver. Tests have been done where the steel pins were removed and replaced with wood dowels. They fire and function will no ill effects. The design of the action produces a steel to steel connection from the rolling block to the receiver so it is effectively a steel block when fired. That said it will handle some very stout rounds with no problem. They are much stronger than people give them credit for.

The only annoying part of rebarreling them is cutting the square thread for the barrel shank. They are also much easier to rechamber in RIMMED rounds as making a functional extractor for rimless is an exercise in learning new cuss words....but it CAN be done. Given a rimless case design such as 444 or 45/70 they are pretty much a slam dunk. I may look to build one in 45-70 for myself in the future.

Frank46
12-20-2011, 01:45 AM
Jim, since I have two marlin 1894's one in 357 mag and the other in 44 mag, another marlin in 444 and three revolvers in 44 special. I'm kinda leaning towards the 44 special. My rolling block was converted from the 12mm cartridge about 1892 to the 8x58r cartridge. Not really my cup of tea. However a carbine rolling block in 44 special would be just the thing. Maybe as a companion piece for one of my revolvers. Frank

Tim The Grim
12-20-2011, 08:06 PM
HA!

I called to order that rifle 15 minutes after you bought it. Instead I got the one that had been bored out to 16 gauge and I must agree that they are in good enough shape to sleeve and work with a rimmed pistol cartridge.

What I would like to try is a 7.62x25 but I really don't think the extractor mods will be worth the hassle so a .357 is probably in my future too.

That same week I found a nice #4 Rolling Block with a shot out .22 barrel that has a super slick action. I'll make that into a .17HMR.

All I need is time off from the refinery to spend in my shop.

Nice job & great minds think alike. Your's is just 15 minutes ahead of mine.

Tim

JCHannum
12-20-2011, 08:54 PM
m-mac, nice job. The rimless extractor presents another level of difficulty, but the end results are worth the trouble. This is my first full sized rolling block, and I am quite pleased with it.

Frank, there is nothing wrong with the 44 special, I just mentioned that the action is quite capable of handling the 44 magnum and 444 Marlin. If you are into reloading, the 444 will do anything the other two are capable of and more if you so desire. Whatever your choice, it is all good fun.

When I called Simpson's, I had a list in descending order of the guns I was interested in. This was number three of five. Last time I looked, there were still one or two of the welded chamber guns left. There might be a chance that more will be put out from time to time, but they will probably be sparse. There were a few in the $200-$300 range, which would still be a good value.

I have made up a couple of #4's in 17HRM and they work out well. The only caution is to use a solid frame, the takedown might not stand the added presure too well. I recently also did a Stevens Model 44 in 17HRM. That is another good candidate for the round.

motorcyclemac
12-21-2011, 02:23 AM
JC, The one you see that I built started life as a $350.00 functional 8x58R. It was in very good shape from the start. Simpson's does get the occasional wall hanger piece of junk that would be good for just the receiver. The customer I built the 6.5x55 version for has had quite a number of them from Simpson's. All of them have been pretty good with exception of one that had been sleeved (poorly). It had pipe wrench marks on the barrel but still had a decent action.

There were two different style extractors used in them. A rotary that engages in the side of the rolling block and a linear extractor that has very little extraction power. I prefer the rotary version as it will unseat a tight case if need be. It has more camming action if you will.

There are some things you can alter in the action if you like...and feel frisky about making springs. The main spring is clearly a rear axle leaf from a ton and a half truck. I make a new spring for them with less tension. You CAN thin the existing spring and re-heat treat for a better feel. Additionally you can (should) make a new trigger spring from Brownell spring stock and heat treat. The existing one is FAR too rigid for a good feel. It tends to scrub on the trigger surface and is also quite stiff. If you like, you can polish the spring tip and the trigger surface to remove some of the gritty feel. What ever you do, don't try to flex the existing spring at all. They are hard as glass. Don't ask how I know :)

JCHannum
12-21-2011, 07:23 AM
I haven't done any tuning yet, but the mainspring could be lightened up. They weren't taking any chances of poor ignition from too light a hammer strike. As far as the trigger spring, someone is making a replacement from music wire, I intend to do the same for mine. Polishing is a good idea.

38_Cal
12-21-2011, 05:47 PM
You can also lighten the hammer quite a bit without sacrificing safety. The lighter hammer means less jarring of the rifle at ignition and less possibility of the sights wandering off target. Make the spur more like a commercial roller's contour and drill a couple of 3/8" holes in the body under the action line fore & aft of the hammer pin's hole.

David

chriskat
12-21-2011, 07:50 PM
So they appear to still have some of these left but the desription says that they have "mismatched" breach blocks and then later says they are removed. What do you think is up with that? I may give them a call later.

Will this action really handle a 45-70? I wouldn't mind rebarelling it is so, I've always wanted one; I think I'd use it mostly in black powder loads.

Jeff

JCHannum
12-21-2011, 09:01 PM
They will handle 45-70, but not the heavier loadings for modern guns such as the Ruger or TC's. Stick to black powder equivalent and lower pressure loads and you will have no problems.

They probably brought out an armory in Sweden, when I bought mine he said he had bought around a thousand. There were more available at a dealer in Canada as well. It looks like most of the welded ones are gone, what you see in the description and photos is what you get. You can enlarge and use the slider to get a better look at details.

It appears that the ones still in 12.7MM and many of the shotguns have not been converted to the rotary extractor or later breechblock and hammer. Not a big deal, but the rotary extractor is more positive, and the breechblock should be bushed and a smaller firing pin installed for smokeless cartridges.

chriskat
12-21-2011, 09:58 PM
Thanks, I think I'll call tomorrow.

Jeff

chriskat
12-21-2011, 10:31 PM
Or maybe not, looks like they are sold out.

Frank46
12-22-2011, 12:55 AM
Jim, don't do much hunting anymore. So might be looking for something different to shoot at the range. I cast my own bullets and mosst likely put on a tang sight that would be adjustable for both windage and elevation. or an extended scope base for scope useage for these old eyes. And maybe bang the gong at 300 yds. I've a piece of 1" cold rolled steel in a 12" circle that would make a perfect gong. My rolling block still has the brass regimental brass disk in the stock. And the forend might take some figgurin out as some of the hardware locks into the bbl. So would like to keep that origional if at all possible, but have almost the full forend in walnut from a 1891 argentine mauser. Would give it a forend with a more hand filling piece of wood. Frank

Rustybolt
12-22-2011, 09:36 AM
Or maybe not, looks like they are sold out.



Nuts! Story of my life.

JCHannum
12-22-2011, 09:34 PM
The rifles still available in the under $300 range are still a good value, especially if the wood is reused, moreso if the barrel is salvaged as well.

Frank, I was considering cutting the barrel ahead of the octagon and chamber swell area and stubbing a turned down barrel in by threading and loc-titing or silver soldering in place as a means of retaining these features and the lug for stock attachment. Just another approach that has been used with success.

Frank46
12-23-2011, 12:32 AM
Jim, I've heard of using the bbl stub and then threading a stub on both the old stub and new bbl seems a quick and dirty way to get a new bbl installed without having to do any fancy machining done such as doing the square threads for the receiver and scalloping on the bbl for the cylinder section of the breechblock. I'd probably use a good threadlocking fluid and maybe a couple of set screws or pins to keep both pieces. While the 44 special isn't what one would call a high intensity cartridge I would think you'd get some increased velocity due to the longer barrel. Exactly how much is up for grabs. Frank

Frank46
12-24-2011, 03:03 AM
I've a #1 black powder action. Great condition except for one problem. The face or front of the action has been modified and who knows for what reason from being perfectly flat to being rounded. I guess the previous owner trird something when fitting a barrel. Anyway I got the action for a good price. Is there anyway to true up the action face? I had thought about locking it in an adjustable angle viceand using a cup wheel to do the work. Action is in fairly decent shape and really would like it to be made into something ususable. The trimming would be done via cup wheel in the drill press. Thinking on a 50-70 gov't cartridge. any help or comments are appreciated. Thanks, Frank Have a very merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year.

tdmidget
12-24-2011, 04:49 AM
I've a #1 black powder action. Great condition except for one problem. The face or front of the action has been modified and who knows for what reason from being perfectly flat to being rounded. I guess the previous owner trird something when fitting a barrel. Anyway I got the action for a good price. Is there anyway to true up the action face? I had thought about locking it in an adjustable angle viceand using a cup wheel to do the work. Action is in fairly decent shape and really would like it to be made into something ususable. The trimming would be done via cup wheel in the drill press. Thinking on a 50-70 gov't cartridge. any help or comments are appreciated. Thanks, Frank Have a very merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year.

Make a mandrel that is threaded to fit the action as snugly as possible and face the end square. screw the action on and plunge a left hand tool to the mandrel. This ensure that the face is parallel to the breech face and perpendicular to the action threads.

JCHannum
12-24-2011, 07:45 AM
The #1 is a rolling block action and I doubt the mandrel will work. The angle vise and drill press should, but I would do it with an angle plate either on a faceplate on the lathe or on the mill. Take skim cut with carbide tooling if the action is too hard for HSS.

In either case, I would make up a stub mandrel in one setup in the lathe. This would duplicate the barrel tenon and be long enough to use an indicator to set the receiver up true to the world.

Thinking about it, if tdmidget meant to thread the action on the mandrel with the tang pointing at the tailstock, that would work.

I find the stub mandrel useful when building up from a bare action, it can come in handy for other functions along the way and gives practice on the threading.

tdmidget
12-24-2011, 11:28 AM
Guess I wasn't clear on that JC. The idea was to make the mandrel in the lathe and then, without disturbing it, screw the receiver on. Make the cut on the front surface where the barrel will seat. The mandrel is somewhat sacrificial. If you mar it there is no loss. The shoulder for the barrel will be perpendicular to the threads. The mandrel could be used again but as my intention was to make so that the receiver will just screw on, it might not fit another receiver.

Bob Ford
12-24-2011, 05:09 PM
Jim
Nice looking rolling block and a handy caliber. I have one made up from a .310 cadet.

Question. If the threads are not square with the front of the receiver, what makes you think they are square with the breach block?
If they are not you can put a index mark on the breach and a matching mark on each case. This way the case will at least be in line with breach face, but the head of the case will be cocked at a angle to the bore.

Bob

tdmidget
12-24-2011, 07:08 PM
Jim
Nice looking rolling block and a handy caliber. I have one made up from a .310 cadet.

Question. If the threads are not square with the front of the receiver, what makes you think they are square with the breach block?
If they are not you can put a index mark on the breach and a matching mark on each case. This way the case will at least be in line with breach face, but the head of the case will be cocked at a angle to the bore.

Bob

Unless the angle of the breech block to the threads is extreme, it matters not. Since these are not highly stressed cartridges the case life would be only marginally affected. Accuracy depends on consistancy and the angle would be the same on every shot so no effect there. But if that's important to you then make the mandrel with a loose fit to the thread and the end face perpendicular. Screw the receiver on until the mandrel is flat against the breech block and then cut the shoulder for the barrel. When the barrel is screwed tight against the shoulder it will be perpendicular to the breech block.

Frank46
12-25-2011, 03:09 AM
Just another thought about the #1 BP action. Using the mandrel idea make it long enough so that it goes in the front of the action and the other end extends out past the upper tang and center drill both ends. Turn between centers. or use the angle vise and a straight edge, (I have an 18"long stainless ruler) When the bottom of the ruler contacts the drill press table while being held against the top of the receiver ring, hopefully the front of the action will be horizontal and facing the cup wheel. Don't know if the last part made any sense. I bought the action many years ago when Numrich was selling the rolling block barrel and stock kits. remington made for the Egyptians. I made up new pins some time back as the origional ones were pretty worn. Thanks again, Frank

Bob Ford
12-25-2011, 10:16 AM
Frank,

Before you grind with a drill press. Chuck 12 inch a length of Straight rod and use a good square to see if your table is out of tram with the rod. If it is your action will be ground at that same angle. If the action is not casehardened you can square it up with a file if you have skill with them. A lathe is is much easier to do the squaring action to threads.

Bob

JCHannum
12-25-2011, 02:13 PM
tdmidget, I was looking at your mandrel idea as if it were being used on a bolt action receiver, it dawned on me that it would work if plunge cut. Might have to do something creative to assure the mandrel shouldered on something other than the face of the receiver.

I agree the lathe is probably the best machine for action truing. Either a stub mandrel or a longer stepped mandrel threaded on centers will hold the action true to the threads which will suffice for the chamberings and applications we are discussing here. These receivers, for the most part have been casehardened, and will machine with HSS or carbide tooling. I see no need to go to extremes to face with a grinding wheel.

I remember those Numrich actions. About a year ago, I was outbid at an auction for one of the rolling block lamps they made at the same time.

Bob Ford
12-25-2011, 06:05 PM
A lot of single shot actions were re-barreled after WWII and it was found that a surprising amount had the threads cut at a angle. This was not a problem with the original use as you used new ammo and upon firing through the case away. With the re-barreled actions the intent was better accuracy with a smaller caliber high pressure cartridge. A lot of users were complaining about short case life and having to full length resize cases. Some solved the problem with indexing each case. Some figured out that the barrel was not in line with the breach face and found ways of correcting the problem.

One was sort of like Tdmidget suggested, but much more involved. You turned a mandrill between centers with a undersize barrel thread. This was screwed into the action stopping on the breach face. The action was then place on a angle plate mounted on the face plate in a lathe and the mandrill was indicated true. A lot of shimming and adjusting the angle plate. When it was true you removed the mandrill and bored until you cutting 360 inside the bore. You then started re-cutting the threads until you had a full threads again. Then you faced off the front of the receiver. When you threaded the barrel oversize threads, but square with the action and breach face. You also installed a Mann- Neider type firing pin

Bob

tdmidget
12-25-2011, 10:59 PM
JC I guess I am not that good at verbal descriptions and I don't know how to draw and/or post drawings on the internet. What I propose is a mandrel that has enough clearance in the threads ( sounds way better than "slop") to permit it to align it self. The face of the mandrel is face perpendicular to these loose threads. When the receiver is screwed on to it the face of the breech block (if there is enough clearance) will seat flat against the face of the mandrel. Then a plunge cut, just enough to clean up, is made at the shoulder the barrel seats against. Now the shoulder for the barrel and the breech block face are parallel. I all likelyhood the threads of the barrel have enough clearance to allow the barrel to seat flat against that shoulder. Thus the barrel is perpendicular to the breech.
If , as I am told, the rolling block has a square thread, then cutting oversize will not correct the problem and will weaken the receiver. If the angularity is too much to correct as I have described then the answer is to not re cut the thread oversize but shift in the Z axis toward the barrel shoulder to provide fresh thread flanks . This thread would then be parallel to the axis of the bore.
It is important to recogniznize that virtually no action is perfect and these old classics, while sometimes over engineered out of caution, still have a finite amount of metal in them. Therefore it is important to remove as little as possible. Cutting the shoulder that the barrel seats on is the way to do this with the least amount of metal removed. most of the cartridges that are chambered in these single shots are not such high pressure loading that it would be a problem.

38_Cal
12-25-2011, 11:54 PM
The only large action Rolling Blocks I know of with V-threads are Spanish and the reproduction Italian ones. I think that the Scandinavian made ones used the square thread like the originals.

David

Frank46
12-26-2011, 12:57 AM
I still have the barrel stub off the #1 BP action and if memory serves me (CRS) I believe that is a square thread. Now the Danish actions mine is a huskuvarna uses the square threads. The barrel is in suprisingly good shape no rust, piting, or corrosion and the outside still has most of its rust blue finish. Down side to this is to get cases for the 8x58r cartridge requires you to use new 45/90 cases to reform to the 8x58r case. At this point I kinda like either the 44 special as first choice or 45 long colt as the second. Frank

JCHannum
12-26-2011, 08:46 AM
My action is a Carl Gustave, it also has square threads. Compared to the deHaas dimensions for the #1 Remington, it is close, the shank differed a bit, longer I think.

While the concerns about parallelism of the bore to the breech block may be well founded in pursuit of eking out the best accuracy, the rolling block adds another degree of difficulty. Due to the rotary action of the breech block, if the barrel shank is a tad longer or shorter than the ideal, the block will close at an angle to the bore. The same pertains to the manufacture of the breech block itself as well as the placement of the pin the block pivots on.

When I faced off the liner, I painted the shank with Dyekem and faced until I just skimmed it.

JCHannum
02-17-2012, 03:45 PM
Just a heads up that Simpsons has recently added more rolling Blocks to their site. They have several under $200, one at least as low as $125. Most are shotguns, so are not suitable for most relining projects, but still are a very good price for a very stout single shot action.

Hurry up and buy them up before I succumb to purchasing another.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/

Fred P
02-18-2012, 11:17 PM
I made a 22 250 on an 43 Egyptian RRB action about 45 years ago. The 43 Egyptian has V threads. I do not know if I would do a second one with a rimless cartridge. It is ease to let the cases git just a little long and then the hammer drags on the block and I git a light hammer drop and some times a miss fire. It has been a good shooter. In 1963 I think I paid $3.50 mail order for the rifle. I reworked the action rebarreled and restocked it. At that price I should have gotten a truck load of them. O well..........

Fred P...............

chriskat
02-21-2012, 07:24 PM
In an attempt to help Jim out I bought this 19 gauge Rolling Block Shotgun:

Simpsons Rolling Block (http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?cPath=350_368_369&products_id=22541&osCsid=05c5d002e82da386ac0c436005ad9fd9)

Hopefully I'll have similar luck and be able to re-barrrel this to something useful.

Jeff

JCHannum
02-21-2012, 08:08 PM
Thanks Jeff, I know it was a great sacrifice on your part and I appreciate it. I had been back to look at that one a half dozen times, now it is off my conscience.

Have fun, it will make up into a nice project.

chriskat
02-21-2012, 08:35 PM
My pleasure Jim,

Of course I meant 16 gauge.

Hopefully it will work out well.

A related question. Anyone know of an online resource to get some sort of plans for a Soule like tang sight?

Jeff

JCHannum
02-22-2012, 06:19 AM
The American Single Shot Rifle Association offers a set of plans for tang sights, including the Soule for $10.00. They may be contacted through their website;

http://www.assra.com/Archivelibrary.htm

The archives have been moved and were not accessible for a while, but I believe they are up and running now. These are on 8-1/2 X 11 pages, but enlarge quite well. I have a set and they are very detailed.

chriskat
02-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Thanks again Jim,

I emailed them last night, heard of that on another forum. I got an answer from the archivist today. I'll be mailing them off a check for $10 shortly.

I don't know if I have the skill or tools to make such a small precision thing but we'll see.

Jeff

Maine 04655
02-22-2012, 07:37 PM
This question is showing my ignorance but why does a single shot rifle like that have to be decommissioned before it can be sold. Full auto weapons I can understand but a single shot. Is this a US law or a Swedish export law.:confused:

Yes he said it was welded. I fit had not been made a non gun then it woudl have been a C&R but unless the buyer has a C&R ( a ffll for old guns ) it would have to ship through a fll. Demilled or inert ( non guns ) are no longer firearms thus not covered by the firearms laws EXCEPT in some states where they are still illegal even if demilled.

JCHannum
02-22-2012, 08:15 PM
The gun was welded due to Swedish laws as mentioned in post #4. The gun was manufactured prior to 1898 and, as such, is an antique and can be shipped direct to purchaser with no FFL or C&R required.

chriskat
02-22-2012, 09:29 PM
Okay, here's another question. Any idea where I can track down a 45/70 or 45/90 barrel without spending double what I paid for the "action". I'll chamber it so it really just has to be a blank with appropriate twist.

I've been looking at Green Mountain but most of the barrels are $200 plus. I suppose I could go with one of their specials but they are 22-25.5", I was hoping for something more like 30". Want to "look like" a buffalo type rifle.

Oh, by the way, not necessarily wedded to .45 I'll take .50 if that makes it easier.

Jeff

Maine 04655
02-22-2012, 11:35 PM
Okay, here's another question. Any idea where I can track down a 45/70 or 45/90 barrel without spending double what I paid for the "action". I'll chamber it so it really just has to be a blank with appropriate twist.
Jeff

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/614377/adams-and-bennett-barrel-blank-45-70-caliber-centerfire-f99-contour-1-in-22-twist-26-chrome-moly-in-the-white

Frank46
02-23-2012, 02:08 AM
I have a douglas 45/70 bbl, 1x22 twist snd will finish up to 28" length. However for the moment its promised to someone else. No shank cut for the threads. Looks like a toyota truck axel. Too be honest with you I don't think that you are going to find a decent maker 45/70 bbl for nothing less than $200. You might want to try Numrich via phone and see what they may have on hand. Frank

JCHannum
02-23-2012, 07:39 AM
It will be difficult to find any barrel blanks that length for a low price. The Green Mountain 44 magnum blank at $75.00 is a bargain. You can chamber for 444 Marlin or some of the black powder 44 cartridges. Not a 45-70, but still some very stout cartridges were loaded in the 44 caliber.

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/productdetail.aspx?id=44Gatling

Keep in mind that these actions are around 130-140 years old and were made for black powder pressures. The gun you are purchasing has not been reheat treated and might not be suitable for hot loads. Rolling blocks were made in several sizes by many manufacturers. Husqvarna's are good, but when you get it, double check dimensions, barrel shank diameter and do your due diligence to determine appropriate cartridges for it. Have fun by all means, but stay safe.

chriskat
02-23-2012, 07:09 PM
Thanks very much Jim, I have the same worries. I won't be pushing this thing for sure. I'll check dimensions and probably ask here, until you all get tired of the questions, about what kind of cartridge I can get away with.

I did see that GM sells round barrel blanks in virtually every caliber for about $125, that seems a decent price.

Once I get it I'll take some pictures and measurements and see what I have.

Jeff

chriskat
02-23-2012, 07:12 PM
Thanks Maine 04655 that looks a good deal.

Jeff

Maine 04655
02-23-2012, 09:34 PM
I have used a few Adams and Bennett barres in the past with good results. Remember those are in the white.

chriskat
02-25-2012, 11:44 PM
Rolling block arrived today. Looks to be in really good shape.

Appears to be missing the extractor. Although what may be the extractor retaining screw is still there. I'll try to get it apart tomorrow and post some pictures.

The bore looks to be rifled, even though it was advertised as a shotgun. Admittedly I've never actually seen a damascus barrel but the bore looks to uniform to be one. Seems like very fine rifling.

Jeff

JCHannum
02-26-2012, 09:30 AM
Some of the shotguns were made by drilling out rifles. Possibly some rifling remains? A Damascus barrel would not appear to be rifling, it would have the appearance of an Acme-ish screw thread as it is much tighter than rifling.

It originally had the sliding extractor which is relatively simple to make.

chriskat
02-26-2012, 11:32 AM
The best pictures I can get of the "rifling":

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Pictures/DSC_0044%20%5B640x480%5D.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Pictures/DSC_0047%20%5B640x480%5D.JPG

In this picture you can see some of the color case hardening still there.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Pictures/DSC_0048%20%5B640x480%5D.JPG

Jeff

JCHannum
02-26-2012, 12:36 PM
The rifling is interesting. It looks like some sort of poly-groove. It there any twist to it? It is definitely not Damascus.

chriskat
02-26-2012, 01:02 PM
I think there is a twist. I'll see if I have a bore brush close enough to measure it.

chriskat
02-26-2012, 03:06 PM
I was wrong. No twist. I pushed the tightest patch I could make down the bore and couldn't discern any twist or skipping over the grooves. With a flashlight I can see all the way to the breach and the grooves look straight down the entire 34".

Looks like the breach is plugged with either a brass or bronze plug. Once I get the barrel off I'll try to knock it out just for fun.

Looks like I'll have to make a new extractor retaining screw, oversized and retap the hole to match. The threads in the receiver are gone. Lucky I even got the screw. At least I have something to copy.

The trigger assembly has two pins in it (I'll have to take a picture). One is the trigger pin and I don't remember what the other is for, I think a spring. Any idea if they are just driven in an peened? One end of them looks like they might be screws with the heads filed off. I'd like to get it completely disassembled to try and blue the receiver.

Thanks for all of the information.

Jeff

38_Cal
02-26-2012, 06:55 PM
With the receiver case hardened, you'll have to polish the action below the surface hardening to get a decent blue. Hot caustic blue will turn a mottled purple on case hardening, rust blue may not take evenly.

David

Dutch51
03-12-2012, 01:26 AM
FYI

Historical and Experimental Investigations of the Pressure Characteristics of the 8x58 Rimmed Danish Cartridge..... as used in the 67-89 Swedish rolling block:
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/GB8x58RD.html

Bottom line: Norma of Sweden loaded the 8x58R Danish for use in the m/1867-89 rolling block to no more than 28,000 psi.

The Swedish m/1867-68 was built by Husqvarna. At the beginning of production they used Vee threads, later going to the conventional square threads. I was surprised but I had one in my possession.

http://images52.fotki.com/v1565/photos/4/28344/7937087/RB01-vi.jpg
http://images50.fotki.com/v393/photos/4/28344/7937087/rb001-vi.jpg

I have a loose set for the 67-89 :eek:
http://images51.fotki.com/v303/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF2744w-vi.jpg

Dutch
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/rb.html
Swedish Mausers & rolling blocks

Maine 04655
03-12-2012, 09:58 PM
That sir is a beautiful rifle.

chriskat
03-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Did a little work this weekend.

Ground a threading tool, .050" wide square threads.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Tool%201.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Tool%202.JPG

Turned what will be the chamber end to .980 to match the existing barrel and threaded it 12 tpi. Turned the threads off for the breach end until the barrel would tighten to the receiver.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Threads%20Angled.JPG

Barrel installed loosely. I left the chamber end purposely long so I can face it off to get the breech to close against it correctly.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Installed.JPG

Sorry the pics are dark, not sure what went wrong.

Jeff

chriskat
03-27-2012, 08:09 AM
I've started cutting the contour of the barrel, no pics right now but I'll put some up. The breach 18" will be octagonal 1.08" across the flats because that's what the original is. The rest will be 1" round. I've turned the round and will work on the octagon probably this week.

Regarding the sights. I'm looking at this sight for the front:

Combination Front Sight (http://www.montanavintagearms.com/combo_front.html)

And this for the rear, whether I make or buy:

Rough and Ready Sight (http://www.montanavintagearms.com/rough_ready.html)

Over time I'm hoping to build a Soule type tang sight.

So my question, is there a rule of thumb for the height difference between front and rear sight? Or maybe a rule cover how far down range the line of the bore should cross the line of the sights with the rear at it's lowest setting (at least for a starting point)?

By the way, I realize it depends on the distance between the front and rear sights. At this point I'm not near the barrel so I don't know what the exact distance will be but something like 30".

Thanks,
Jeff

JCHannum
03-27-2012, 08:48 AM
The Marbles catalog has a sight correction chart, scroll down to page 20. It gives change in height of sight needed to move point of impact an inch at 100 yards. You can fiddle around with bullet drop and such and come up with a close approximation of a height for starters.

http://www.marblearms.com/pdf/Marble%20Arms%20Catalog.PDF

rbertalotto
03-30-2012, 03:34 PM
Chriskat,

I have both of those sights. They do not work well together. The Rough and Ready sight is too far out on the barrel to be a true "peep" sight (at least for these 60 yo eyes) I now have the "Beach" sight (Combination Front Sight) on an 1886 Winchester with a Marbles rear tang sight. This is a GREAT combination.

The Rough and Ready is on an 1895 Marlin with a red fiber optic front sight. This works much better, but is not "Period Correct"

The R&R also works pretty good with a simple covered blade front sight. But it still sits out too far on the barrel for my liking.

chriskat
04-04-2012, 08:41 PM
Got a little further on profiling the barrel. I am leaving the 12" just in front of the receiver octaganol and the balance 1" round with a 3/8 wide wedding band between (just for fun).

Cut the octagon portion, or finished, tonight. Put one end of the barrel in my spin indexer:

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20and%20Spindexer.JPG

The other end I supported in a home made V-block which is supported on some of the stepped blocks from my hold down set.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20and%20V-Block.JPG

Pardon the chips, I haven't cleaned up. Here is the entire setup.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20Set%20Up.JPG

And installed in the receiver. I've left it so I need about 10 degrees of draw beyond hand tight to get the octagon lined up correctly, hope that's enough.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20Installed.JPG

Bob Ford
04-06-2012, 07:13 PM
Chriskat,

Looks good so far!

Suggest next time you mill on the side of the barrel with your cutter. This will allow you to form what is called a Tulip shape short round section at breach. Will also let you mill a tapered octagon. The only extra you need is a little side support in the center section of the barrel. This you will have to move each time you index. Side milling with sharp new cutter will give a smoother finish. Very little touch up needed. I use a solid carbide cutter. If you tighten the barrel in your action. Then use a small chisel to make a index mark on action and barrel. Put barrel in your spin dexer, use a square or level to adjust the action. You now have the flats set so they are in line with the action. Action can be removed and the flats milled. When assembled to index mark the flats will be where you want them. This saves trying to cut the shoulder and having a big gap in the threads.

I never could understand why people want to really tork a barrel in the receiver put all the stress in the camber area then fire heavy loads next to their hands and face. I only put about 20 to max of about 50 pounds tork. Seats the threads. Before assemble I coat action threads and barrel threads with low to mid strength Loctite. This fills the threads and when you remove it takes only a normal human.

Bob

chriskat
04-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Thanks Bob,

I faced the breach end of the barrel today to get the breach block to close flush with the barrel installed.

From here I need to make an extractor so I'm making an aluminum barrel blank that I can use to determine where to mill the flat and use to test fit the extractor.

I think I'll also chamber the aluminum blank, just with a boring bar, that will allow me to test function the extractor as well.

The extractor retaining screw is stripped, either in the receiver or the screw not sure which yet. In any case I'll need to make a new screw as well.

Regarding barrel torque, Jerry Kunhausen's book on the Garand suggests 12 degrees (from memory) of draw if the barrel shoulder is 90 degrees and a little more if it has a 1 degree (again from memory) undercut. I assumed that would be reasonable for this action as well.

Thanks for the input.

Jeff

JCHannum
04-06-2012, 09:43 PM
Looks very nice Jeff. I always swear that I will never octagon a barrel again, but then can't resist. The half octagon with the wedding band transition will make a classy looking roller.

It never occurred to me to index the barrel before octagoning. It is so simple and saves a lot of aggravation down the line.

As far as barrel torque is concerned, 10* is probably plenty if not too much. Don't forget that there are a lot of very high end switch barrel and takedown rifles around that takedown by hand with nothing more than what are standard barrel/receiver threads as well as half turn models that only use half of the full thread. It can be overdone as well, there have been many 1917 Enfields and, I believe some Mausers that have been damaged when dismounting the barrel as it was so tight it cracked the receiver.

Bob Ford
04-06-2012, 11:10 PM
Chriskat,

For each degree you tighten the barrel you will move the barrel or action metal .000231481. So you must tighten the barrel before the breach block can be fitted. 10 is a little over .002. 12 is slightly under .003. Keep in mind that the Garand sets up vibrations similar to a machine gun.
Bob

chriskat
04-07-2012, 09:41 AM
Thanks again guys,

Bob, I did that math. Took the breach face down until the rolling block close flat and the hammer would close on it then took another .002". I was worried that I did the math wrong, however, so thanks for confirming.

Jeff

Enfield
04-07-2012, 04:12 PM
Got a little further on profiling the barrel. I am leaving the 12" just in front of the receiver octaganol and the balance 1" round with a 3/8 wide wedding band between (just for fun).

Cut the octagon portion, or finished, tonight. Put one end of the barrel in my spin indexer:

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20and%20Spindexer.JPG

The other end I supported in a home made V-block which is supported on some of the stepped blocks from my hold down set.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20and%20V-Block.JPG

Pardon the chips, I haven't cleaned up. Here is the entire setup.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20Set%20Up.JPG

And installed in the receiver. I've left it so I need about 10 degrees of draw beyond hand tight to get the octagon lined up correctly, hope that's enough.

http://home.comcast.net/~chriskat/Rolling%20Block%20Pics/Barrel%20Installed.JPG

Hi
first I must say you are doing some great work there, like the other thread with the chap making the Favorite it is great to see you guys remaking the old stuff to a very high standard.

I have a question what is the indexing jig you are using to create the flats. I have been saving for a dividing head but that seems to be possibly a cheaper or home made option

Thanks

Bob Ford
04-07-2012, 06:11 PM
Enfield,


I have a question what is the indexing jig you are using to create the flats. I have been saving for a dividing head but that seems to be possibly a cheaper or home made option

It is a simple spindexer http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=37&PMKANO=317&PARTPG=INLMPA&PMCTLG=01

You use with 5C collets.

Bob

chriskat
04-07-2012, 08:11 PM
Correct Bob,

It is a simple spindexer with 5C collets. I cut slots in the base to make it easier to mount to the mill table.

Jeff

Enfield
04-08-2012, 02:22 AM
Thanks gents., I have a set of 5C collets, I may see if I can find one over here

Cheers

Bob Ford
04-08-2012, 09:45 AM
Chriskat,

It does not look like you squared yours up. I used a 1 inch hardened bar in my vise (Kurt 6 inch). Made sure the bar was parallel with table. Put the spindex on base up and using a good level decided what part of the base was close, clamped spindex and used a new carbide endmill cut the base flat and in line with the 5C collet. I also cut both sides, front and back. Surprised how out of square it was. I now can use mine in the vise or on the table and have square sides to go by.

Bob

chriskat
04-09-2012, 12:40 PM
Seems a good idea Bob but I'm not sure I understand exactly what you did. Was it a hardened round bar in the vice that you then attached to a 5C collet in the Spindexer? If so I suppose that was rigid enough?

Let me know it seems like something worth doing.

Jeff

Bob Ford
04-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Seems a good idea Bob but I'm not sure I understand exactly what you did. Was it a hardened round bar in the vice that you then attached to a 5C collet in the Spindexer? If so I suppose that was rigid enough? Let me know it seems like something worth doing.


I used a hardened 1 inch round bar, but see no reason that any 1 inch Straight round bar wouldn't work. The 5C collet tightens on the 1 inch bar as close to the vice as practical. Be sure that the index pin is tight and you can feel no movement. Make sure bar is parallel with table both up and down and side to side. Taking light cuts with a sharp end mill should not deflect the spindex. If done carefully the base and sides will be parallel with the bar and the ends will be at right angles. Mine now has less than .001 runout in 6 inches. I f I remember the base before was out by more than .012 side to side and front to back and not even flat. Sides and ends were a lumpy uneven surface. I can now use in my vice on parallels or on the table and not damage the table by tightening it down.
A 3/8ths carbide end mill can be run between 1200 and 1800. I use Atracx 4 flute.
Bob

chriskat
04-09-2012, 09:06 PM
Thanks Bob,

That's what I thought. I'll do that when I get a chance. Probably no machining work for a couple of weeks now too much other work to be done.

Hopefully I'll be able to post some more progress in a couple of weeks.

One question, for anyone that would like to hazard an opinion. Any suggestions for extractor material? I have on hand some A1 tool steel square stock that is about the right size. In addition I have some 4140 pre-hard round bar that is probably large enough to square up and make the extractor. Other than that I have to buy something. Either of these seem ok?

If A1 should I harden it?

Thanks in advance.

Jeff

Bob Ford
04-09-2012, 11:05 PM
Jeff,

With the pressure that you should be using the cases unless dirty should fall out. I think 4140 at 32 RC should be fine. If you use anything else temper it no harder than spring temper.
My 45-70 with 28,000 psi loads with barrel pointed skyward the fired cases fall out, this is smokeless load.
Bob

chriskat
04-10-2012, 07:15 AM
Thanks Bob,

The round bar will also allow me to machine an angle that I think I need based on what I see. I'll post some pictures when I get to a point I can work on it again.

Jeff