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wierdscience
01-04-2012, 09:02 AM
....not sure if it's $945 cute though,Grizzlys new H/V bench mill.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Horizontal-Vertical-Mill/G0727

Lew Hartswick
01-04-2012, 09:04 AM
No dimensions. :-( But is "Cute". :-)
...lew...

Bob Ford
01-04-2012, 09:11 AM
Dimensions here http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2012/Main/550

Bob

RussZHC
01-04-2012, 10:03 AM
Well, when you consider that's what a new aftermarket vertical head for an Atlas horizontal goes for...

Your Old Dog
01-04-2012, 10:34 AM
Either the power cord is made from 2" thick cable or this baby is pretty tiny? But I'll tell ya, I could find a lot.............strike that. I might be able to find a use for that. :D

lynnl
01-04-2012, 10:52 AM
Looks to me like the vertical head is out way past the table. ...or even the end of the knee.

How you gonna do vertical milling with that? Hand hold the work piece?

What am I missing?

platypus2020
01-04-2012, 11:03 AM
Looks to me like the vertical head is out way past the table. ...or even the end of the knee.

How you gonna do vertical milling with that? Hand hold the work piece?

What am I missing?


It looks like the top ram moves back to use the vertical head, I basing this on the second web site picture of the unit.

dockrat
01-04-2012, 11:04 AM
Looks to me like the vertical head is out way past the table. ...or even the end of the knee.

How you gonna do vertical milling with that? Hand hold the work piece?

What am I missing?

The ram slides back for vertical milling.

lynnl
01-04-2012, 11:21 AM
Ah so, I didn't think about the ram sliding back. That'd do it.

gwilson
01-04-2012, 11:33 AM
It's $795.00 in the page with dimensions. I wouldn't call it cute. Just boxes upon boxes,but I'll bet it would out perform the Atlas,which I think IS a very cute little mill.

aboard_epsilon
01-04-2012, 11:48 AM
its a good deal ..similar worn out 1940s centec 2A mill with optional verticle head, here, goes for 500+

i think it would sell well over here

all the best.markj

ScubaSteve
01-04-2012, 02:01 PM
I've been eyeing this mill myself. It does lack a lot of the features of the more expensive verticals that Grizzly sells, but if you planned to use the horizontal feature often it might be a good buy. Also it looks more rigid than the G8689 "mini mills" which are just attached via the column. For less than $1k, you can do a lot of stuff. Add a dividing head and you can be making decent sized gears for less than the base price of a more expensive vertical.

gwilson
01-04-2012, 02:11 PM
Based upon my experience with the Atlas mill I had,if there was some way you could rig up an outboard support connecting the ram to the knee,it would make the mill a lot more rigid. On my Atlas,the knee would jerk sideways in any kind of a real cut. It did originally have the outboard support,but I didn't have it with my machine. I could have made one,but the #4 Burke that came along soon negated the problem. It was my first REAL mill,and capable of doing real work.

This Grizzly looks much more beefy than the Atlas,but the weight designated to it makes me wonder: less than 300#. I don't know the weight of the Atlas as I got rid of it in the early 70's. I DO like the vertical head very much. It is a LOT more substantial than the vertical head accessory that could be had for the Atlas.

I wonder how much trouble removing the motor is? If you could buy an extra motor unit,it would be very handy. They'd probably want more for an extra unit than the mill cost in the first place. That's how spare parts usually run.

Arthur.Marks
01-04-2012, 02:16 PM
As ScubaSteve points out, it does seem aimed specifically at users who need a horizontal overarm. I find it interesting someone decided to design a new machine with a plain (no quill) vertical milling head. Given its size, though, it is not particularly limited by the fact. You also have to figure anyone that might buy this already has a bench drill. Gears are the obvious draw, but what else might a small machine with true overarm and outboard support excel at? There won't be any large slab mills :) going on here, so the focus is on specialty operations... anything to suggest other than gear cutting?

J Tiers
01-04-2012, 09:51 PM
There won't be any large slab mills :) going on here

Why not?

All you would need is an overarm support and off you go.... I have a similar-sized machine, and I use a 2" wide slab milling cutter on it. I have a 4" which I have not tried mostly because I thought the arbor was too short for it..

Slab mills shear, and probably apply less pressure than a lot of straight tooth and side milling cutters.

CCWKen
01-04-2012, 10:01 PM
Is that a model or the real thing? It's so tiny it looks like a crank handle on the back. :rolleyes:

techonehundred
01-04-2012, 10:02 PM
Here is a review of the mill.

http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/U1/U1.htm

mickeyf
01-04-2012, 10:29 PM
To me, it looks pretty feather weight compared to an Atlas.

Arthur.Marks
01-04-2012, 10:47 PM
Slab mills shear, and probably apply less pressure than a lot of straight tooth and side milling cutters.
I don't wish to hijack, but I'm not convinced by that supposition. It seems to me a cut is a cut. It will either shear (aka "cut") or rub or break (the cutter). The forces may be applied in different ways, but I tend to think the actual cutting force will be quantifiably the same. In any case, the work would likely not be too large here. A large DOC is probably not needed or will be within the capacity of the machine for a gang-mill setup. You only have 6" to work with after all! I do think it is funny that the reviewer immediately tries to mount something too large and extends the vertical head all the way out. ...also that he uses a 1" end mill :eek: He's a true to life HSM'er, Haha!

I do like the general direction this mill embarks on. A return to an adaptive, "universal" design reminiscent of some of the historical European machines that have gained a cult following. I do think the U1 likely hits a nice sweet spot as a "small horizontal". You have the Sherline which is adaptable as a horizontal, but this steps up enough to provide a noticeable difference. What is there between a full size or dual spindle, H/V knee mill and the U1 when it comes to horizontals? If we ignore for the moment the passing reference to a U2 by the reviewer, nothing, really, other than the old Atlases and Benchmasters. This is priced favorably against one of those---not to mention the half-complete kits those old ones might be. I say, "good job, Seig". :)

Arthur.Marks
01-04-2012, 10:53 PM
To me, it looks pretty feather weight compared to an Atlas.
Might look that way, but the weights are pretty close. Atlas catalog weight for MFC minus motor is 200lbs. U1 with motor is 250lbs. They're essentially equal.

wierdscience
01-04-2012, 11:21 PM
After reading the review I am seriously looking at it for one reason.Every three months or so I get a job milling 1/8" key ways in some 1/2" shafts,about 300 of them at a lick.This mill and a carbide saw would be vastly better than using the B-port like I'm doing now.Plus using a 2,000lb machine to mill a 1" long key slot in a 3 ounce part is a bit ridiculous:)

justanengineer
01-04-2012, 11:50 PM
I find it interesting someone decided to design a new machine with a plain (no quill) vertical milling head.

Some of us consider that a benefit, not a drawback if that is what you mean.

Not for me thanks, but to each their own. For that money I could buy several of my dream K&T universal horizontals with a true geared spindle feed, not a mini plain horizontal without. Barring that, I could pretty easily find any of the similar sized domestic horizontals for that money and get more features.

It is kinda cute tho.

Arthur.Marks
01-05-2012, 01:33 AM
Thinking about this more, I guess the part I find exciting is thinking about this as a platform --- all the possibilities for adaptation. It could make more than a few HSM articles! ;) I'm picturing the "spindle-with-motor-as-module" thing in the manner of the Arboga UM400 (http://www.lathes.co.uk/arboga/page5.html). The Seig is obviously not the exact same concept, but there are similarities when you consider it as a mounting platform with x/y table, aligned mounting bores in both vertical and horizontal planes, and an independently driven spindle.

oldtiffie
01-05-2012, 02:49 AM
Its more than cute - it has the potential to be very useful for me as it will fit in nicely with my shop and what I do. I have been eyeing off a turret mill for quite a while but most are too big with too big a foot-print.

I thought the review was very objective and covered all bases for me.

R8 collets and quill taper are no use to me as I am all MT3.

I'd prefer to wait the next/larger model with an MT3 quill taper as it has more head-room as well.

They talk of using a dividing head but I can see no reason why a 6" "Vertex" (or "Phase 11") in vertical mode can't do the job just as well.

I have the Sieg X3 and SX3 vertical mill-drills and they are really good and if the newer vertical/horizontal mill - the subject of this thread - is as well made I will be verry pleased.

Mention was made of using the horizontal arbor nuts to clamp the cutters as it seems that there is no normal keyway for a standard 1/4" key. If that is so it will restrict the current rotation to one direction which if the cutter does not "slip" will or may cause the cutter to cause the arbor nut to jamb up very tightly whereas the "other/reverse" direction will or may cause the arbor nut to loosen with the cutter slipping and "crashing".

$US1,000 in the USA will be about half of what we will pay in Australia ie $US2,000 which with the $AU being near enough to parity with the $US will be about $AU2,000.

If or when we get it here and after a look, feel and test-run (no load) at my suppliers premises is OK, the price to me is quite reasonable.

I don't do any "big" or "production" jobs (they are a "no-no" here) as it is a small hobby shop.

macona
01-05-2012, 03:35 AM
The big problem I see is the minimum RPM is about 200. Way to fast for anything other than aluminum in horizontal mode. And there will probably be almost no power since it is just the generic PMDC motor with a SCR drive. If it was the brushless motor that they are putting on others it might fare better.

oldtiffie
01-05-2012, 04:20 AM
Oh I don't know.

2", 2.5" and 3" side and face cutters as well as saws etc. are OK and not too expensive. Some slab milling cutters are available as well.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF-45%20Mill%20misc/Stub_arbor1.jpg

My Sieg X3 and SX3 mills go down to about 100>200 RPM and I can't stall them by hand and the change of speed is minimal.

The SX3 with its tapping facility will tap a 3/8" what-ever thread with-out too much bother - better still with speed and spiral taps are even better. Both will drive my tapping heads.

But a lot more common sense and a lot less tear-ar*ing and "macho" or pseudo "production" capers and they do what they are made for very well.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Black_book/Black_book2_P20-21_1.jpg

If the new Sieg horizontal mill performs as well I will get one (the larger/later one with the MT3 quill taper) and I am sure that I will be quite pleased with it.

But a caution and warning. Non-sharp (ie "blunt") horizontal milling cutters can ruin a job or machine and accidents are more likely.

So several cutters are required as there will or may be a lot of cutter sharpening on a good tool and cutter grinder will needed. If you have one, OK, but if you don't get to know someone who can do it for you - possibly at a reasonable cost.

Black_Moons
01-05-2012, 04:34 AM
Ok, Nifty machine, But where do you get th 1/2" arbor cutters for the horzontal arbor? (or whatever it uses.. does not look big enough to take 1" arbor cutters)

willmac
01-05-2012, 07:08 AM
I'm not convinced by the cuteness.

This probably sounds rather negative, but I don't think a mill built as lightly as that will be useful in horizontal mode.

The spindle speeds really need to go down to below 100 rpm to make use of a slitting saw or side and face cutter. The torque needed to drive such cutters is considerable, and I rather doubt that the motor gearbox is built for that. The arbor diameter looks small and deflection of it and the rest of the mill is likely to require very small cuts. The problem raised about sourcing cutters to fit is significant.

Of course I could be quite wrong, but I would like to see some real accounts of practical usage from someone who has some experience of a larger mill before I would be convinced.

John Stevenson
01-05-2012, 07:50 AM
I have had one for about 9 months.
If you are looking at one of these as a main machine then unless you are doing clock or Gauge 00 trains all the while they will not suit.

However there are niche markets in any hobby and these fill that market, like as I mentioned the clock and small electric train guys.

Mine is setup with an angled plate type jig and is putting 20 thou wide slots into some stainless steel burner nozzles. I can leave this setup and just do the nozzles as they are called off.

Sieg also do the tiny small C0 lathe, similar to a Unimat and this sells well with some people but they also do a CNC version.
Then I saw this I thought it was pure novelty and not much use but this little machine outsells all the manual machines into Japan.

Most of the Japanese users are flat based, have no room for workshops and just choose projects that fit their envelope, hence the popularity of a machine that probably will not sell outside Japan in any numbers.

We take the CNC KX1 and KX3 machines to shows, we always get people coming up to us over the small KX1 sating it's too big, is there anything smaller.
Same applies with the larger KX3, it's too small is there anything larger ?

There is no one size fits all.

aboard_epsilon
01-05-2012, 07:56 AM
The big problem I see is the minimum RPM is about 200. Way to fast for anything other than aluminum in horizontal mode. And there will probably be almost no power since it is just the generic PMDC motor with a SCR drive. If it was the brushless motor that they are putting on others it might fare better.

looks like you have some room to mess about with pulleys to get the speeds you really want...pulleys look simple enough...and why is tiff moaning about buying an r8 collet set :confused: .....i see the thing as an electric power saver ..do the small jobs on this ..and not on the mamouth machines

http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/U1/md01.jpg

all the best..markj

wierdscience
01-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Ok, Nifty machine, But where do you get th 1/2" arbor cutters for the horzontal arbor? (or whatever it uses.. does not look big enough to take 1" arbor cutters)

It's an R-8 spindle,so conceivably you could run 1" bore cutters on it,but that's not what it's made for.There are loads of small 2-1/2"< diameter saws and slot cutters in the catalogs that use 1/4,3/8 and 1/2" arbors.

This machine will find a Niche as John points out.The same way the Seig X2 mills did for folks who wanted something between a Sherline and a Mill drill.

gwilson
01-05-2012, 10:57 AM
VERY serious lack of vertical space on this mill. You'd better buy a set of stub drills as the chuck takes up about 1/2 the vertical space. Plan to drill objects clamped ON THE TABLE,as there's no room for a small vise.

The thing I like the LEAST,is those dials with left over thousanths on each turn. That makes it a royal pain to move the table several inches accurately. There seem to be about 3 thousanths left over on each dial revolution.

If I was stuck with this mill and had the means,the first thing I'd do would be to make a set of INCH threaded leadscrews and nuts for an easier .100" per revolution. Then,new collars would have to be made as well as new nuts for the lead screws.

Obviously,I would only do all this if I was absolutely STUCK with this mill and just a small apartment space to use it in.

This is based on the SEIG machine referred to on page 2 here. I wonder if the Grizzly version has true INCH lead screws? Better check it out.

At any rate,you are still stuck with the lack of vertical space,so you'd best have a drill press,and forget about accurately spaced holes,unless you have an accurate X-Y table to mount on the drill press.

P.S.: I went to the Grizzly site,and their "detailed specs" mention nothing about the grads on the dials. By the way,I'd forget about using carbide saws on this little machine,because 1 chatter and your saw will break to pieces. Carbide needs to be run only on RIGID,heavier machines as it is so brittle.

wierdscience
01-05-2012, 02:29 PM
The thing I like the LEAST,is those dials with left over thousanths on each turn. That makes it a royal pain to move the table several inches accurately. There seem to be about 3 thousanths left over on each dial revolution.

This is based on the SEIG machine referred to on page 2 here. I wonder if the Grizzly version has true INCH lead screws? Better check it out.


The screws on these machines are 16tpi hince the .0625" per rev number on the dials.I have the same screws on my Seig x2 mill,they are inch and actually do work fine,although something in a 10 or 20 pitch would make decimal inch easier to hash.

japcas
01-05-2012, 03:55 PM
[QUOTE=gwilson]VERY serious lack of vertical space on this mill. You'd better buy a set of stub drills as the chuck takes up about 1/2 the vertical space. Plan to drill objects clamped ON THE TABLE,as there's no room for a small vise.QUOTE]


It's not really suited for drilling anyway, without a spindle, it would be a real pain to drill using only the knee to advance the drill while in vertical mode.

aboard_epsilon
01-05-2012, 04:02 PM
[quote=gwilson]VERY serious lack of vertical space on this mill. You'd better buy a set of stub drills as the chuck takes up about 1/2 the vertical space. Plan to drill objects clamped ON THE TABLE,as there's no room for a small vise.QUOTE]


It's not really suited for drilling anyway, without a spindle, it would be a real pain to drill using only the knee to advance the drill while in vertical mode.

you just make a raiser block

J Weber
01-05-2012, 04:09 PM
Make a dandy dedicated screw slot cutter in my shop.Set up 3 or 4 proper sized saws and just move over to the one you need.Tad pricy for just that though.

oldtiffie
01-05-2012, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by macona

The big problem I see is the minimum RPM is about 200. Way to fast for anything other than aluminum in horizontal mode. And there will probably be almost no power since it is just the generic PMDC motor with a SCR drive. If it was the brushless motor that they are putting on others it might fare better.


looks like you have some room to mess about with pulleys to get the speeds you really want...pulleys look simple enough...and why is tiff moaning about buying an r8 collet set :confused: .....i see the thing as an electric power saver ..do the small jobs on this ..and not on the mamouth machines

http://www.mini-lathe.com/mini_mill/reviews/U1/md01.jpg

all the best..markj

Mark.

I am not "moaning" about the R8 collets and mill quill tapers at all as they work quite well for those that have and use that system.

Many or most here in Australia use and are geared for MT3 tapers and ER-32 collets - me included - thats just the way it is.

My ER-32 collets are used on my HF-45 mill, Sieg SX and X3 mills all of which have MT3 tapers. I use ER-32 collets on my lathe as well.

So, fairly obviously many - mainly outside the USA (and the UK as well?) - would prefer the next/pending larger Sieg horizontl mill as it has more head-room and a greater working envelope as well as a power-head with a motor and controls similar to the X3 and SX3 vertical mills where the minimum speeds are 100 RPM with a maximum speed of 2,000 RPM (X3) and 1,750 RPM for the SX3.

Here are the specs for the Sieg X3 mill-drill:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M153

and the Super X3 (SX3) mill:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/M155

Note that both mills have MT3 tapers - as does my HF-45 mill.

My tool and cutter grinders have C5 collets but I use John Stevenson's C5>ER-32 collet adaptor. I use ER-32 mostly and keep my C5 collets for "closer" work.

My ER-32 adaptor for my lathe works well on my mill table as well:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/AirSmith03.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/AirSmith01-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF-45%20Mill%20misc/HF45-4-1.jpg

I use the C5>ER-32 adaptor to use my ER-32 collets on my "Spindexer":
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-7.jpg

But wait - there's more:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Collets/ER32-C5collets1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Collets/ER32-C5collets2.jpg

My metric ER-32 collets each have a gripping range of 1.0mm (~0.04") and go from 2mm (~0.08") to 20mm (~0.80") and so will handle all metric and "inch" sizes in that range.

So far as I am aware R8 collet systems do not have that versatility.

So, I guess you could say that I am "stuck with" ("wedded to"?) ER collets and MT3 machine tapers - and works very well with the next/pending larger Sieg horizontal mill with its larger work envelope, MT3 taper and X3/SX3 type work heads.

I only do "small" stuff and any larger stuff can be done onmy HF-45 mill-drill.

So I am not and have no good (or any) reason to grizzle at all as I am quite prepared to wait for the newer larger Sieg MT3 taper horizontal mill as I can get by reasonably well in the meantime.

Arthur.Marks
01-05-2012, 04:45 PM
tiffie - no difference, really, for you that I see wrt spindle taper. If you like ER-32 you can just get an ER32 adapter with an R8 shank. functionally the same as your 5C>ER32 one.

saltmine
01-05-2012, 04:51 PM
Gad, that thing is "cute". What do you make on it, wristwatches?

Rustybolt
01-05-2012, 05:10 PM
After reading the review I am seriously looking at it for one reason.Every three months or so I get a job milling 1/8" key ways in some 1/2" shafts,about 300 of them at a lick.This mill and a carbide saw would be vastly better than using the B-port like I'm doing now.Plus using a 2,000lb machine to mill a 1" long key slot in a 3 ounce part is a bit ridiculous:)



Might want to look at a used Barker. The larger OM model might suit your needs.
They are made for production.

wierdscience
01-05-2012, 08:58 PM
Might want to look at a used Barker. The larger OM model might suit your needs.
They are made for production.

Oh,I have,problem is there aren't any here.The ones I have seen locally were clapped out and missing parts.This means buying up north sight unseen and having it shipped in not really feasible.

All the others,the Burkes and Atlas mills all get people frothing at the mouth at sales and go for more than the Griz mill.

justanengineer
01-05-2012, 09:25 PM
Oh,I have,problem is there aren't any here.The ones I have seen locally were clapped out and missing parts.This means buying up north sight unseen and having it shipped in not really feasible.


Thats something I never understood. If its a 3000+ lb machine the cost is high, but for a machine you could fit in a normal mid-sized car (or even easier - small pickup) its neither expensive nor difficult to move long distance. Oil Coast = ~8 hours to the midwest = leave Friday night, stay overnight, pick it up and head back, be home Saturday night. $200 in gas + $50 for a motel....sounds like a nice cheap vacation to me.

Ive gotten SWMBO to go along on quite a few of these weekend "vacations" and usually she even does the majority of the driving. The last one involved a stop for her at the Kentucky Derby museum in Louisville, followed by a stop at Jim Beam's distillery (which was followed by a nice nap for me thanks to "sampling" :D ).

If I was looking for a small horizontal on the cheap, I would be looking at two of the best names in the business IMHO - Hardinge and Clausing. Ironically enough you were right. Ive seen quite a few sales where a hobbyist had one of these and an Atlas or Burke. The Atlas or Burke always seems to bring more, but the buyer gets significantly less IMHO.

wierdscience
01-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Thats something I never understood. If its a 3000+ lb machine the cost is high, but for a machine you could fit in a normal mid-sized car (or even easier - small pickup) its neither expensive nor difficult to move long distance. Oil Coast = ~8 hours to the midwest = leave Friday night, stay overnight, pick it up and head back, be home Saturday night. $200 in gas + $50 for a motel....sounds like a nice cheap vacation to me.

Ive gotten SWMBO to go along on quite a few of these weekend "vacations" and usually she even does the majority of the driving. The last one involved a stop for her at the Kentucky Derby museum in Louisville, followed by a stop at Jim Beam's distillery (which was followed by a nice nap for me thanks to "sampling" :D ).

If I was looking for a small horizontal on the cheap, I would be looking at two of the best names in the business IMHO - Hardinge and Clausing. Ironically enough you were right. Ive seen quite a few sales where a hobbyist had one of these and an Atlas or Burke. The Atlas or Burke always seems to bring more, but the buyer gets significantly less IMHO.

Well there is the time factor though.If I had the time to do all that I would just bang up some plate steel boxes,add some linear ways and be done with it.
Then there is always the possibility of driving 800 miles round trip only to find out it's a POS.

Yes I have seen Hardinge and Clausings and a couple others,but they don't go cheap here,even the ones GL leaves out in the rain to rust.