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John Stevenson
01-07-2012, 02:07 PM
On a recent trip to Paris - France over the new year we stayed off in London before getting the Eurostar train to Paris and had a free afternoon.

So we decided to visit the Science Museum, been before about 3 times but not in the last 30 years.
Last time I went it was full of interesting exhibits covering all subjects.

What a let down this time. The place has been gutted, all wide open spaces, we could have driven round in the car and seen as much.
Everything behind glass cases only interactive stuff was on computers which you could have accessed from home if you had wanted to.

Loads of exhibits on the future ? [ I thought this was a MUSEUM ??? ]

Last time I went the aviation section had loads of aircraft hanging from the ceiling, spitfires, hurricane etc and rows upon rows of engines relating to them.

This is what it is now.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/galleries/%7E/media/Images/main/galleries/flight_gallery_9891_364px.ashx

They still own the exhibits but they are locked up in an aerodrome.

A few years ago the Science museum had public funding from the lottery commision and government to build Babbage's Difference Engine, one, if not the first mechanical computer.

Massive piece of gear, weighed tonnes and was finished in time for Babbage's centenary and went on show at the Museum.

So wandered round looking for this, found part of his Analytical Engine but not the full working exhibition. Went to information, three young people behind 6 computers and they had no idea what I was talking about.

Another one to cross off the list.

loose nut
01-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Simple explanation, it is easier to clean the floors if there isn't any pesky exhibitions on display.

The Henry Ford museum in Detroit is the same way, gutted.

aboard_epsilon
01-07-2012, 02:26 PM
Science museum in Manchester is still good ..get there before they ruin it
..the war museum in Manchetser..is like the London crap ....its all about the designer building ..and not the exhibits

all the best.markj

philbur
01-07-2012, 02:29 PM
I had an afternoon there (london) about 8 months ago. I can to exactly the same conclusion. It was a huge disappointment. More like a small indoor theme park than a world class museum.

Phil:)

The Artful Bodger
01-07-2012, 02:35 PM
My memory of the place, c1982, was of them turning the lights off on the upper floors early in the afternoon to force the punters down and close to the exits well before closing time. It had taken me 3 weeks of continuous travel and 13000miles to get there.:mad:

Come to our little museum Sir John, we even let you touch our aeroplanes (but no poking at the fabric!). http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3134

John Stevenson
01-07-2012, 02:56 PM
Artfull,
That picture is one of theirs and not one I have taken, in fact it was really dark in there.

Add to this white text on a red background on some of the exhibits and you couldn't see anything.

The parts that had the most presentation were rooms with weird futuristic display stands holding only 4 computers.
I can get 4 computers round our dining table easily, don't need a whole floor for that. Point being all they were showing could have been accessed from a school or home.

Lower floor has some impressive stuff only their because of it's weight but lacking detail and history.

One side of the hall is a rocket engine out of a V2 rocket, just says V2 rocket engine.

Other side of the hall, not in view of the engine is an actual V2 rocket, no history of it, nothing to connect it to the engine 100 yards away [ hint dumbo, put the two together ]
No V1 rocket, photos or history again.

Anyone under 40 would just walk straight by both exhibits.

oil mac
01-07-2012, 03:02 PM
Hi folks,
Welcome to the jungle! by that i mean the latter ten years of the last century & the first ten of this century, which is the domain of "the new enlightened museum professionals" by that i mean a modern old boys club of young trendy types who are on an upward spiraling career path, That is a great pity, For, as they meander from establishment to establishment , the decimation, left in their wake, of some very fine technological collections, is the name of the game.

This modern developmental way of thinking is very much at the behest of the modern consultants and design gurus, who can really con museum comitees, and municipal councils, plus other governing bodies out of vast sums of money, for a very poor return, packaged up as " The modern progressive way forward in interpretation" In other words everything has to be dumbed down to the level of the academic grasp of a seven year old.

Sadly the results of the intellectual arrogance of todays so called museum leaders (bar for a few enlightened souls ,albeit thin on the ground) is the vanishing for ever or total destruction by neglect, or even worse, scrapping or selling off, of this countries technological gems in the name of modern enlightenment.

Do as i do folks, if not making things,or visiting more enlightened small private set ups run by non professionals, I live on my past memories

Spin Doctor
01-07-2012, 03:02 PM
The last aviation museum I went to was the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson. Very nice and I hear it has gotten better. The last museum period was the Milwaukee Art Museum. Really nice exibition of Impressionist paintings and drawings. Plus another part of the visit was getting an up close and personal look at the Calatrava addition itself. You know, the one with the wings/sails/sunshade that open and close. If anybody saw the last Transformers movie* it was were they shot the scenes with the antique cars. It is a shame about the London Science Museum. I suspect the British equivilant of political correctness is to blame.

*hey I needed a movie to fill out a rent three get one free plus it was 1/2 price

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUlcS2mwun0&feature=related

The sunshade in motion speeded up

The Artful Bodger
01-07-2012, 03:13 PM
I have never been to a US aviaton museum ( and likely never will as I will never again willfully go anywhere near LAX:mad: ) but the best aviation museum I have ever been to is at Kbely, near Prague.

Spin Doctor
01-07-2012, 03:17 PM
This one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Xz2YM1Og0

I suspect that most aviation museums tend to be slightly parochial in that display the aircraft most closely associated with that country.

The Artful Bodger
01-07-2012, 03:19 PM
Museums are run by three basic types of people:-

Volunteer, retired professionals in the field being displayed, these may be the less 'well run' but are usually the most interesting museums of all.

Museum professionals, I fear these are the ones that have taken over the Science Museum in London. They run our national museum at Te Papa, Wellington, too.

Public servants and disinterested time servers. They run many of the museums in major cities of the Olde World, the famous museum in Cairo and until recently the Science Museum in London. Their day is to open the doors, make sure no one steals anything, chase the people out and close the doors at the end of day.

The Artful Bodger
01-07-2012, 03:24 PM
This one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Xz2YM1Og0

I suspect that most aviation museums tend to be slightly parochial in that display the aircraft most closely associated with that country.


We did not spend more than 5% of our time there walking around the outdoors 'bone yard', the best displays at Kbely are indoors, aero engines in particular.

jugs
01-07-2012, 03:33 PM
The best museum I've been to is

http://sinsheim.technik-museum.de/en

on A6 between Mannheim and Heilbronn, 1 hr from Frankfurt.

You'll need 2 days to see it all + 1 day at the sister site 1/2 hr away

http://speyer.technik-museum.de/en

Stunning stuff

CountZero
01-07-2012, 04:11 PM
My favorite museum is this: http://www.industrimuseum.gnosjo.se/inenglish.4.672662fd10e2d7a43de80002355.html
Some pictures in this pdf: http://www.industrimuseum.gnosjo.se/download/18.368808d12c126a7edd80001722/En_halsning_fran_igar.pdf

If you take the tour in Swedish you most likely get an old guy who knows what he is talking about, the only problem is you will be stuck for the rest of the day...

If you choose to take the tour with an english speaking guide you will probably get someone younger, and possibly less knowledgeable.

Almost everything is operational and they demonstrate the machines, once a year they do a casting session in the foundry.

Video Man
01-07-2012, 04:55 PM
Sir John, you might enjoy the Kew Bridge Steam Museum (across the Thames from Kew Gardens, Green Dragon Lane, Brentford). Haven't been there for several years but they have the full sized prototypes of many of the steam engines one sees at the crafts fair...fairly interesting place.

David Powell
01-07-2012, 05:03 PM
In 1958 my family made a visit to London. Each day Mum and Dad simply dropped me off at the Science Museum at about 10 am and picked me up at about 5.00pm. I spent about 4 or 5 days like that and I would happily have spent more. It was packed full of wonderful full size items and models which helped explain how the real things worked. I learnt a lot and came away with the idea that there would always be more to invent and improve. The staff were kind and helpful. Perhaps I should mention that i was eight, yes eight , years old at the time.Regards David Powell.

Mike Burch
01-07-2012, 05:57 PM
The last time I was in England (2005) I went to the National Maritime Museum, which I remembered as a fascinating place, chock full of interesting stuff.
Not any more!
Vast emptiness, with bugger all on display. It was a huge disappointment.
And TAB's right about Te Papa, New Zealand's national museum. Not only is it a preposterously ugly piece of architecture, built on reclaimed land next to the harbour and a major fault-line in an earthquake-prone city, it is run by trendy "experts" and set up to appeal to the witless TV-sodden "entertain-me-at-all-costs" generation. Occasionally it gets in a visiting art exhibition which really is worth the journey and the queues, but as a repository of the nation's treasures it's a disaster.

lazlo
01-07-2012, 07:16 PM
A few years ago the Science museum had public funding from the lottery commision and government to build Babbage's Difference Engine, one, if not the first mechanical computer.

Massive piece of gear, weighed tonnes and was finished in time for Babbage's centenary and went on show at the Museum.

A beautiful piece of work too -- I've seen pictures in the Scientific American article, and would love to see the real thing. They made Babbage's printer for the Difference Engine No. 2 in 2000.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/object_images/535x535/10303322.jpg


So wandered round looking for this, found part of his Analytical Engine but not the full working exhibition. Went to information, three young people behind 6 computers and they had no idea what I was talking about.

I think it may be on tour John. There's a big consortium of American and British enthusiasts trying to recreate the Analytical Engine, which would be the size of a room. Apparently there are no consistent set of drawings, so there are controversies over the design.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/science/computer-experts-building-1830s-babbage-analytical-engine.html

Nerdy factoid, but the CUDA programming language -- the data parallel programming language for Nvidia's graphics cards (which have literally Teraflops of compute power) derives many of it's terms from weaving machines: threads, warps, wefts.

Babbage's computers were programmed with Jacquard cards: punched cards which "programmed" looms for complicated brocade patterns.

John Stevenson
01-07-2012, 07:25 PM
Robert,
There were two built, one with UK public money and one privately buy of of the Microsoft guys, Paul ? ,not Allen.

That one is in California.

http://www.computerhistory.org/babbage/

What pi$$ed me off was it was built with public money, the SM are the custodians of it and they should have it on display or know where it is.

wierdscience
01-07-2012, 08:02 PM
Unless it was invented by a woman or a brown person it will no longer be on display.It's what happens when the PC crowd is allowed to run anything.

barts
01-07-2012, 10:28 PM
Unless it was invented by a woman or a brown person it will no longer be on display.It's what happens when the PC crowd is allowed to run anything.

Bzzzt. I call bull**** on that remark.

- Bart

wierdscience
01-08-2012, 12:29 AM
Bzzzt. I call bull**** on that remark.

- Bart

Really?How so?You mean you haven't noticed how we now have to apologize to everybody?

Great,so we go to a Science and Technology museum now and we hear about Mary Anderson and GW Carver,fine they played a roll.What about everybody else?Where did Eli Whitney go?Bell?

Where did all the stuff go?Instead of actual machinery,planes,autos and trains we now have glassed in exhibits that contain things like paper and personal effects of somebody no one has ever heard of many times some one who never contributed anything to the Industrial Revolution.If I wanted to stare at a piece of glass and read about this stuff I would have stayed home and looked it up on the net.Heaven forbid if I wanted to see things in real time and appreciate detail.

If they want to honor the contribution of women and minorities more power to them,but they don't need to take up the whole place to do it.The PC crap has gone to far.

I forget who said it,but being PC is having the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.It's a silly concept at best.

oldtiffie
01-08-2012, 06:06 AM
In this day and age of long-term austerity and where everything like museums and the like have to pay their way and where "full cost recovery" is the (only?) way of achieving it, it can only be via personal admission fees.

If the income is less than expenses and out-goings and where a balanced budget (no deficits) is mandated the museum must "cut its cloth to suit" (as it were).

Older people and others here and elsewhere on their own will never go often enough or in such numbers that their fees will "balance the books".

That means new types of displays for a newer (and younger) potential clientele - and their money - hence the way it is and the way it is going.

Enthusiasts and volunteers are usually older and thin on the ground - and getting older and thinner.

So the museums has few options to stay open and attract a larger audience more often with more fees else it must reduce its exhibits and if that doesn't work it must either be declared insolvent or bankrupt and if there are any debts the volunteers etc. and the tax-payer may become liable.

The running costs - fixed and recurrent - of a museum must be horrific.

Volunteers can only be expected to pay for at least part of it out of their own pockets while they are in effect subsidising the public and the expenses which may be so inadequate as they may see the museum and its exhibits decay and or become derelict.

As there are very few votes - read money - at present for museums and the like, the outcome if stable may be inadequate as some here complain of or else it will be "let go" (to rack and ruin).

You might ask yourselves why art (old and modern as well as music and staged plays) buildings get on-going Government funding by way of political patronage - as some with very good "contacts" keep the politicians "contributing" (tax-payer funds) when museums such as many here may be interested on get the crums - if any at all.

Get used to used to it.

Tony Pratt
01-08-2012, 07:08 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe all the major museums in the UK have free entrance? My local library had a refurb a few years ago, guess what? loads of open space now and less books.:mad:
Tony

aboard_epsilon
01-08-2012, 07:37 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe all the major museums in the UK have free entrance? My local library had a refurb a few years ago, guess what? loads of open space now and less books.:mad:
Tony

yup, they have been free for the last 3 years or so .

oh they love the wide open spaces.

see here
this is the imperial war museum Manchester

http://www.manchestercentral.co.uk/images/content/181-imperial-war-museumjpg-fullwidth.jpg

see that tower ...so youre thinking, inside it, will be a German v-rocket or something like that ....wrong...almost the entire tower inside space is taken up by the scaffolding that holds it up

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4037/4300832027_c5feaa6c9e.jpg

i hate todays way of thinking ...

oil mac
01-08-2012, 07:45 AM
Unless it was invented by a woman or a brown person it will no longer be on display.It's what happens when the PC crowd is allowed to run anything.

You have got to believe it Weirdscience I have no issues with the colour of a persons skin, and do not wish to start an ethnic war, We are all jock Tamsons Bairns, as the Scotsman said, made in Gods imagine, oblivious of race ,creed or nation, But where the trendy museum designers are concerned, it would seem though, that any contribution made by anyone with a white skin & not of the female gender, is suspect.

So much so, that the care of any beautiful & high example of the last centuries mechanical arts, tends to greatly be subjugated where women workers come along-- E G, The little Rosie The Riveters on war production etc, & do not forget the history of the trade union movement,oops sorry, i forgot to include the slaves & downtrodden in the colonies etc

Fair do,s to mention the suffering of these folks, This sort of thing was a black mark on many of the western nations histories, And should never be forgotten or repeated , --AT OUR PERIL! But one tends to get fed up being reminded of it, Our generation & the last three generations had nothing to do with it, But remember the bigger picture of the great technological achievements & inovations, which led to the greater emancipation, and & benefit of all mankind.

Where these trendies are concerned in telling the story of the vast army of male workers in the war effort is concerned, Who really bust the gut , to help the guys out in the front, I get the feeling they sat around playing cards, whilst the hard working females really filled the breach!

I came across two examples of "Reverse snobbery revently, The first was on white slaves, Yes guys you have got to believe it!:eek: I visited Prestonpans mining display (Not to be confused with the most excellent Newtongrange mining Museum,) Prestonpans has a lovely old cornish pumping engine rusting away in its engine house, As is a lovely big steam crane, which worked where my dad worked , Also in a total state of fuber, But the guy in charge waxed on lirically about the slave trade in that area in fourteen o bonk He new damn all about mining

The second was in a museum in Kings Lynn I asked for any information on Savages the local late engineers, The reply i got from the cloth eared female was "We have no information on Africa" I rest my case.

John Stevenson
01-08-2012, 07:49 AM
Mark,
That building design made me laugh.

About 7 years ago we were driving back from Harrogate and on the bit of a link road that joins the A1 to the M1 [ now part of the M1 ]
there was this new industrial building, probably a warehouse, wit a big sweeping roof that extended out and up with no visible means of support.

I pointed it out to Gert but my the time she had woke up we had passed it, it looked really unsafe to me in passing.

Next time we went past in daylight, probably 18 months later I was looking for this roof to show Gert.

No buildings with sweeping roofs, just rows of warehoused with conventional roofs.
No idea what happened but wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't lost the roof in high winds and had to have a new roof.

There is a block of students flats in Nottingham right on the corner of two very busy roads, just a pavement in front of them. Seven stories high made out of brick just a conventional building except the top floor isn't brick but clad in wood.

Why ??

No way of getting up there to paint this without scaffolding the whole building and closing part of the road, now about 7 years old and looking really shabby.
I reckon they should get 7 ladders tied together and propped up on the pavement and get the bloody architect up there with a scraper and paint brush.

Black Forest
01-08-2012, 08:41 AM
Hey John, are you related to Babbage?

I read a brief bio on him and his personality seems to sort of match up to yours.

Weston Bye
01-08-2012, 08:59 AM
I recently got a job from the local museum for some glass paperweight display mounts. The job was successful and exceeded their wildest expectations. the mounts displayed the paperweights to their fullest advantage while the mounts themselves were nearly invisible to the viewer. While currently used for a temporary exhibition, the mounts will be used to display the institute's permanent collection in the future.

This will lead to other jobs that are waiting until I regain my health. Among the future jobs are some display bases for some African masks. The bases, steel slabs with a round or square rod for a riser and some welded structure to cradle the mask internally, are simple enough, but must be unobtrusive and not complete with the mask for attention. This means smooth surfaces without machining marks, plumb and square, painted a neutral color.

What I find amusing is that what qualifies for consideration as art is utterly and completely devoid of straight lines, mechanical precision, or structural integrity.

oil mac
01-08-2012, 09:09 AM
I have just came back from eating some lunch, So back to a "hot keyboard" This forum biting is real hard work guys

Has anyone ever stopped to think on some of these slimy architects, designers & experts, who have crawled out of todays woodwork? The first premise of these guys is make as much money as possible , leave your mark, and be as contentious as possible, as i have already quoted, mix this up with the modern young breed of museum professionals, who are by and large not a product of the industrial era, Are, also afraid to question these guys, Who postulate around in a complete fog of intellectual arrogance,

And add on todays local politicians who in the case of technology, would not know a bag of Whitworth steel nuts, from a bag of Whitworth raisins! ( For our North American readers, Whitworth, is a large present day supplier of dried fruits to our supermarkets here in the U.K.)

We then come to essential & sadly missing, study material for these modern guys, About 95% of the last generation of keepers in our technical museums, had a scientific or technological discipline, By and large that era has gone Nowadays, you do not need to have any technical background

With these old fellows, the collection had grown up round about them, Take Manchester Science Museum, And the Museum of Flight at East Fortune near Edinburgh Both are superb, The latter mentioned flight museum was built by a very highly skilled & qualified aeronautical engineer

Back to reading material, give these youngsters some absolute innacurate drivel to read, and they will absorb it like a sponge I found two of them, reading a recent book which was a modern definitive history of the guys in the ironfounding industry in the West of Scotland It was the most insulting and inacurate literature i have ever read, Not a proper memorial to these old fellows, The high level of skill was never mentioned, Only the " percieved" slum conditions & so called brutish behavior, As far as i was concerned mostly a figment of imagination

Where Glasgow was concerned i did not recognise the type of craftsman or city in which i was employed, Considering when i was about 19 years of age, i worked with four old foundrymen of 70 odd years of age This was in my early working life about 1959/60, Taking the fact they may have started work about 1903 And i made a point in those days of asking what their elderly workmates were like when they were young, They were by all accounts solid old dependable souls.

These modern trendy youngsters, would no doubt be totally lost if they were to read such fascination publications as Echoes from the oil country, or Jack Hampshires stories of working with traction engines

As regards pouring over my beloved drawing board in the early 1950/s or reading any of Percival Marshalls publications on engines & engineering , or Steeds book on technical design, all such things being the bedrock of technology, Well do 75% of these young guys do any original research?
Where todays museumologists are concerned, I have grave doubts.

Black Forest
01-08-2012, 09:18 AM
Well do 75% of these young guys do any original research?


Of course we do. We come on this forum and do our research! If I want to know about something I come here first. Lot of smart guys here who have actually built things themselves and have built companies.

Except Justanengineer, he is too young to know anything!

Just think of the wide range of expertise on this forum.

Research, ha what are you talking about!

Weston Bye
01-08-2012, 09:29 AM
To quote myself a few posts ago: "What I find amusing is that what qualifies for consideration as art is utterly and completely devoid of straight lines, mechanical precision, or structural integrity."

Oil Mac jogged my thinking to recall the graceful curves and artistic embellishments included in functional castings from a bygone era. Yet even these are discarded as art in today's art world.

Peter N
01-08-2012, 09:44 AM
The problem with all Architectural projects these days is the major factor that the Architect/Designer is looking for a portfolio opportunity as a first priority, rather than achieving this as a consequence of the work done.

wierdscience
01-08-2012, 10:09 AM
You have got to believe it Weirdscience I have no issues with the colour of a persons skin, and do not wish to start an ethnic war, We are all jock Tamsons Bairns, as the Scotsman said, made in Gods imagine, oblivious of race ,creed or nation, But where the trendy museum designers are concerned, it would seem though, that any contribution made by anyone with a white skin & not of the female gender, is suspect.

That is what galls me the most,sure women and minorities made a contribution and sure that contribution should be celebrated,but the total sum of those contributions make up less than 10% of the whole.Why should they now receive 90% of the attention?

wierdscience
01-08-2012, 10:13 AM
The problem with all Architectural projects these days is the major factor that the Architect/Designer is looking for a portfolio opportunity as a first priority, rather than achieving this as a consequence of the work done.

You've got that right.It's nothing to spend $1billion on a God awful structure,most times with a leaky roof or a baffling floor plan.

And Bike trails,that is the big thing here now,they just make every museum better:rolleyes:

Rustybolt
01-08-2012, 11:13 AM
Simple explanation, it is easier to clean the floors if there isn't any pesky exhibitions on display.

The Henry Ford museum in Detroit is the same way, gutted.



Same thing with the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.
It still has the Uboat and coal mine but the mine has been closed every time we've gone there.

oil mac
01-08-2012, 12:35 PM
Well do 75% of these young guys do any original research?


Of course we do. We come on this forum and do our research! If I want to know about something I come here first. Lot of smart guys here who have actually built things themselves and have built companies.

Except Justanengineer, he is too young to know anything!

Just think of the wide range of expertise on this forum.

Research, ha what are you talking about!


Black Forrest,
I was alluding to the research the guys in the museum trades should be carrying out Not us on the forum or in an other industrial context For example just three areas which bear on the history or story which visitors look for when visiting a museum, & frequently find lacking nowadays

A) The story of the local industry
B) The story of the good folk who worked in the said concerns
C) All about the exhibits,-- What was its purpose & what did it do?

Black Forest
01-08-2012, 12:48 PM
I knew exactly what you meant and I agree with you.

I was just harrassing you!

lynnl
01-08-2012, 01:01 PM
That is what galls me the most,sure women and minorities made a contribution and sure that contribution should be celebrated,but the total sum of those contributions make up less than 10% of the whole.Why should they now receive 90% of the attention?

I'll have to admit, I haven't visited many museums or the likes in the last 25 or 30 years, so other than 2nd hand accounts I can't comment about that issue.

However, based on the tack I've seen advertising take I have no doubts that Darrin is spot on.
McDonald's for example: when was the last time anyone saw a McDonald's tv commercial with a white guy in it other than in some subservient or buffoon role?

I'm sure McDonald's has large teams of operations researchers continually hard at work figuring how to peddle the most burgers and fries. But you'd think they'd depict a customer ratio that somewhat mirrored a cross section of the population.

I'd be interested to hear if other sections of the country (or world) get the same advertising, or if I'm only seeing what's targeted for this particular market area.

blowlamp
01-08-2012, 01:56 PM
Same over here in Old Blighty.
Boots (the chemists), have a whole range of advertisements that take the rip out of men and pass women off as smarter and totally heroic - all played to 'Here Come The Girls', by The Sugarbabes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4UVs3JD-g


Makes you want to puke.


Martin.

jep24601
01-08-2012, 02:36 PM
Science museum in Manchester is still good ..get there before they ruin it
Add the Anson Engine Museum to that (not far from Manchester).

aboard_epsilon
01-08-2012, 02:51 PM
thats new to me ..looks like its my kind of place

i will be going there.

all the best.and thanks ..markj

Ray Sidell
01-08-2012, 05:09 PM
John,
Are these some consolation? Taken in the Science Musuem with a film camera approx. 1980.
Brown & Sharp Universal Mill, Back Geared Lathe, Hendy Lathe & SIP Jig Borer

Ray

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/wilmur08/BrownSharpe2.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/wilmur08/BackGearedLathe.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/wilmur08/HendyLathe.jpg
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/wilmur08/SIPJigBorer.jpg

Black_Moons
01-08-2012, 05:53 PM
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/wilmur08/BackGearedLathe.jpg

Normaly im not one to quote an image, but anyway:

Looks like someone reassembled it wrong, the two gears on the back gear arrangement don't look like they will mesh, One has the wrong angle on its teeth and needs to be fliped around?

aboard_epsilon
01-08-2012, 05:58 PM
Normaly im not one to quote an image, but anyway:

Looks like someone reassembled it wrong, the two gears on the back gear arrangement don't look like they will mesh, One has the wrong angle on its teeth and needs to be fliped around?

they are right ..when the teeth yoiu are looking at revolve around another 180 they will be the same way

all the best.markj

jugs
01-08-2012, 06:06 PM
Normaly im not one to quote an image, but anyway:

Looks like someone reassembled it wrong, the two gears on the back gear arrangement don't look like they will mesh, One has the wrong angle on its teeth and needs to be fliped around?

:confused: Looks correct to me http://thumb18.shutterstock.com/photos/thumb_large/164575/164575,1297025046,2.jpg (http://www.shutterstock.com/pic.mhtml?id=70600681&rid=647923&ref=647923&pl=A_647923-00&cr=NLP1)

edit: Mark beat me to it

Spin Doctor
01-08-2012, 06:06 PM
Normaly im not one to quote an image, but anyway:

Looks like someone reassembled it wrong, the two gears on the back gear arrangement don't look like they will mesh, One has the wrong angle on its teeth and needs to be fliped around?

Helicals always run with a right hand helix meshing with a left hand helix. The only exception to the rule is if the shafts are not parellel. Then you can have gears with the same hand helix meshing. IE two 45d RH Helix can mesh if the shafts are are at right angles.

John Stevenson
01-08-2012, 06:21 PM
Mark,
There is a decent museum doing stationary engines, but BIG ones at the bottom of Welsh Wales called Internal Fire Museum of Power.

http://www.internalfire.com/

Private museum run by a husband and wife team and a few helpers.
I did the guy a favour many years ago and supplied him 5 kilo of engineers blue. When you are working on these engines one little tube is gone in 5 minutes.
He said if I was ever round that way to call in and so one day a couple of years later, we were.

Arrived late evening but Paul had given us the name of a local B&B so stayed there and called in the following day.
Got the full guided tour and he was rushing round starting engines up all over.

Hi light for me was a Shulzer diesel from 1913 one of only two left, that blasted science museum has the other locked away.
This one runs though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9r_RqQbMpQ

This was Rudolf Diesels original design that used a separate compressor to supply the air needed for combustion.

It's a bit of an out of the way place but well worth a detour if you are within 50 odd miles or so.

john11668
01-08-2012, 06:33 PM
Have to agree with Sir John on the Science museum.
Most disappointed at my last visit.

Talking of Paris however their "Museum Of science and Industrie" was a great day out and "The Geode " was out of this world
http://uk.tourisme93.com/document.php?pagendx=10107

aboard_epsilon
01-08-2012, 06:54 PM
Mark,
There is a decent museum doing stationary engines, but BIG ones at the bottom of Welsh Wales called Internal Fire Museum of Power.

http://www.internalfire.com/

Private museum run by a husband and wife team and a few helpers.
I did the guy a favour many years ago and supplied him 5 kilo of engineers blue. When you are working on these engines one little tube is gone in 5 minutes.
He said if I was ever round that way to call in and so one day a couple of years later, we were.

Arrived late evening but Paul had given us the name of a local B&B so stayed there and called in the following day.
Got the full guided tour and he was rushing round starting engines up all over.

Hi light for me was a Shulzer diesel from 1913 one of only two left, that blasted science museum has the other locked away.
This one runs though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9r_RqQbMpQ

This was Rudolf Diesels original design that used a separate compressor to supply the air needed for combustion.

It's a bit of an out of the way place but well worth a detour if you are within 50 odd miles or so.

i just clicked on their map ..that -place, as regards time on the road, is further away than London and Edinburgh....same as most things in north wales ..if its anywhere south of Aberystwyth..it may as well be on the other side of the world...as there are whole mountain ranges and only meandering B-roads to travel on.

John Stevenson
01-08-2012, 07:07 PM
i just clicked on their map ..that -place, as regards time on the road, is further away than London and Edinburgh....same as most things in north wales ..if its anywhere south of Aberystwyth..it may as well be on the other side of the world...as there are whole mountain ranges and only meandering B-roads to travel on.

I used to have a truck like that :D

Seriously I regularly go to Aberystwyth and Anglesey, Hi Jugs <wave>
Neither journey takes more than 3 1/2 hours from the Midlands.

A487 goes right by the door, just had a look on the map, it's only 2" below where you live.

jugs
01-08-2012, 07:31 PM
i just clicked on their map ..that -place, as regards time on the road, is further away than London and Edinburgh....same as most things in north wales ..if its anywhere south of Aberystwyth..it may as well be on the other side of the world...as there are whole mountain ranges and only meandering B-roads to travel on.

You mean "and only B.......meandering roads to travel on". :D

jugs
01-08-2012, 07:54 PM
I used to have a truck like that :D

Seriously I regularly go to Aberystwyth and Anglesey, Hi Jugs <wave>
Neither journey takes more than 3 1/2 hours from the Midlands.

A487 goes right by the door, just had a look on the map, it's only 2" below where you live.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-greet024.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) Hi john

3 1/2 hrs but only cos gert pushes you uphill :D


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-transport020.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Timleech
01-09-2012, 03:53 AM
i just clicked on their map ..that -place, as regards time on the road, is further away than London and Edinburgh....same as most things in north wales ..if its anywhere south of Aberystwyth..it may as well be on the other side of the world...as there are whole mountain ranges and only meandering B-roads to travel on.

We used to go for a family holiday every year just a mile up the road from Internal Fire. We reckoned we were 'almost there' when we got to Aberystwyth, only about 40 minutes more to go.
try it, you'll like it ;)

Tim

aboard_epsilon
01-09-2012, 07:00 AM
We used to go for a family holiday every year just a mile up the road from Internal Fire. We reckoned we were 'almost there' when we got to Aberystwyth, only about 40 minutes more to go.
try it, you'll like it ;)

Tim

31.1 mi, 42 mins is what google maps says ...

may give it a try this summer

3 hours total journey time

will get there and back on less than a tank of lpg..so thats good

btw.... Tan-y-groes had the lowest uk temperatures last year .

all the best.markj

lazlo
01-09-2012, 08:04 AM
31.1 mi, 42 mins is what google maps says ...


Good thing you guys haven't converted to Metric -- who knows how long that trip would take in kilometers! :p

aboard_epsilon
01-09-2012, 08:10 AM
Eu will bring in metric time next.

100 kilohours in a day

each hour will have 100 milimins

the week will be abolished :(


all the best..markj

oil mac
01-10-2012, 03:27 PM
Epsilon

Will the E U supply me free a cardboard or paper stick on conversion dial to convert my clock to milimins What about the internal clock gearing also, will a dedicated team of skilled EU clock modifiers come round and stuff up my poor old clock also ?

Cannot wait for the chamges

Dan.:confused:

oil mac
01-10-2012, 03:52 PM
I was wondering if the forum members, would consider hosting a prize for the most tasteless &tacky buggered up previously fine museum( taking into account the exorbitant cost to the ratepayers involved) either in the U.K. or the United States

Should such a contest be considered, i would think the Riverside Museum in Glasgow, would walk away with the prize hands down, This is most certainly the most expensive transport museum i would imagine ever built

They moved the collection from the Kelvin Hall venue which had an ambience about it, When this idea was mooted, everybody thought Well as it has to be on the riverside, We all thought a building which might look like the nice old former red brick warehouse dockside port authority buildings would be a homely reminder of the river Clydes great past, wrong!,
No instead it has turned out to be something according to a local to be more like a great ugly grey dogs turd sitting on the banks of the Clyde

Inside everything is higgelty piggelty, what a mess, the historical car collection, all of these are perched up on shelfs high up on the wall, some of them twenty five to thirty feet up right at the top the oldest Benz motor car in existence , nobody can see it

As for the locomotive and ship model display, unless you have ex-ray eyes we wont go down that road, With the cramped conditions it is more like spending an hour in the old London mental asylum called Bedlam

aboard_epsilon
01-10-2012, 04:01 PM
I was wondering if the forum members, would consider hosting a prize for the most tasteless &tacky buggered up previously fine museum( taking into account the exorbitant cost to the ratepayers involved) either in the U.K. or the United States

Should such a contest be considered, i would think the Riverside Museum in Glasgow, would walk away with the prize hands down, This is most certainly the most expensive transport museum i would imagine ever built

They moved the collection from the Kelvin Hall venue which had an ambience about it, When this idea was mooted, everybody thought Well as it has to be on the riverside, We all thought a building which might look like the nice old former red brick warehouse dockside port authority buildings would be a homely reminder of the river Clydes great past, wrong!,
No instead it has turned out to be something according to a local to be more like a great ugly grey dogs turd sitting on the banks of the Clyde

Inside everything is higgelty piggelty, what a mess, the historical car collection, all of these are perched up on shelfs high up on the wall, some of them twenty five to thirty feet up right at the top the oldest Benz motor car in existence , nobody can see it

As for the locomotive and ship model display, unless you have ex-ray eyes we wont go down that road, With the cramped conditions it is more like spending an hour in the old London mental asylum called Bedlam

Wait until they get their Independence ..if they are screwing things up now ..like their tram system..and now you say the museums...it ain't looking good ...their Parliament don't look that good either with all the laminated short life span fittings .

ucccck

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scottish_Parliament_seating.JPG

all the best.markj

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 04:37 PM
I wonder how many here would qualify as suitable for/as museum exhibits for the younger generations in an "on-line" and virtual museum.

I'd go close at 75.

And what if you were rejected or just put in a store or up on a whare-house rack?

Would your/our category be "Grumpy Old Men" .......... or something less??

rohart
01-11-2012, 04:13 PM
While I agree totally with the complaint about the direction museums are taking, and especially the Science Museum, I really don't see why anyone should be surprised.

The general consensus is that TV is good, touch and feel is bad, and dangerous.

That children nowadays do nothing but watch screens, or interact with screens, so that's exactly what they should be given more of.

No one seems to have the courage to say, if they do nothing but watch screens, then just maybe they should be given an opportunity to get a more worthwhile experience than that when they do get off their backsides to visit a museum.

When I was a kid, most of the exhibits were behind glass too. But, you pressed a button and they moved, the wheels turned, the connecting rods went to and fro, and you could see how things worked. The museums still own that stuff too, but it's buried in their storerooms behind tha last lot of stuff they've decomissioned.

Maybe it's time for a Museums Museum, a building that shows what museums used to be like in the past.

By the way, I've recently visited the National Museum of Scotland, which has just been refurbished. While it falls foul of these comments to a certain extent, it's not too bad. Maybe that's because i never saw it before the makeover !

PS John - did you get to the Musee d'Arts et Metiers in Paris ? Well worth a visit to anyone who visits that lovely city.

The Artful Bodger
01-11-2012, 04:36 PM
I can see why museums might like to put everything out of reach..

In our museum we let people touch the aircraft on display, but we sometimes have to patch the fabric where someone has 'tested' it with a pen...:( we put mannequins in the cockpits to stop people climbing in, but they still drop little kids in then cant reach to get them out!:confused:
We have little kiddy size pedal "Harvard/T-6s" but big kids who cant get inside sit on the fuselage with their feet on the pedals 'dog-fighting'.

HWooldridge
01-11-2012, 05:15 PM
Pensacola, FL has a great US Navy Air museum - loads of great naval planes and other vehicles as well. Confederate Air Force also has a nice one in Midland - and they are still flying a lot of their planes. There was an air show at Randolph AFB a few months ago and I got to watch a B-29, a B-25, a B-17 and numerous pursuit warbirds fly over my house. It was nice to sit outside with binoculars and hear the old radials growl.

john hobdeclipe
01-11-2012, 10:51 PM
It's not just museums that are being dumbed down. Not so long ago, while doing some research at a local library, I finally got fed up and asked the librarian to please be quiet.

In the little town where I grew up, in North Carolina, we had a marvelous library full of books and quiet. When I moved back to this town, some 15 years afterwards, I went to the new library only to find impressive architecture, "multi media rooms" and rude staff, but only about half as many books.

And while I'm on my rant, would someone please tell me why the world's noisiest toilets are always in libraries and churches?

uncle pete
01-12-2012, 11:04 AM
Plus 1 on the Pensacola National Naval Air Museum. I only spent 4 hours there and wish I'd had far more time. Stay out of the gift shop though. Very expensive.

Pete

oil mac
01-12-2012, 11:57 AM
By the way, I've recently visited the National Museum of Scotland, which has just been refurbished. While it falls foul of these comments to a certain extent, it's not too bad. Maybe that's because i never saw it before the makeover

Rohart, The above statement from your quote, says it all, Should you have seen this great establishment, before " The plague of frogs,"-- OOPS, sorry i meant experts descended on it , You would have really been bowled over with the splendour of the place, The old victorians new how to educate the masses, in a temple of elegance big time, & in so doing, had a way of putting the story over which lasted the rest of ones life

you are thinking it is not too bad, This to some extent is by virtue of this lovely building somewhat detracting from todays apologies for design & presentation, Still not to worry, there is plenty of space between the sparsly laid out exhibits for one to run about like an idiot, if one so desires

Also at one stage, going back twenty odd years, ( before the onslaught of liberal & modern thought) The technological section had the most superb models of various engines , coal mines , steel works etc Now with rare exception not on display, But so saying the present keepers are doing a good job, with the exhibit of the nice full sized corliss engine, (operational) forth bridge model etc, I would think they will carry out further tasteful improvements.

Like other public domains the feeling of "inclusiveness" pervades the ethos of this and other similar venues by todays standards,

By the latter statement what is missing is the old warders patrolling the galleries in their austere, but smart black uniforms One instinctivelly was on ones best behavior, It was their museum! Nowadays the attendants are all dressed in crap slacks & tee shirts , I call it dressing down, Control the visitors?, No chance! Let everyone run riot.

Good old twenty first century, I will go back behind the woodwork & lurk.

aboard_epsilon
01-12-2012, 12:24 PM
Talking about coal mines

has anyone here heard about the latest idea they have for all the uneconomical to mine coal seams they have in the UK.

They have this idea, to pump air down bore holes to the seams, set fire to them ..and then collect the heat and power the turbines in power stations, which will be built near by .

i don't know about this ..sounds like the recipe for a huge disaster ..where by the burning becomes uncontrolled and becomes self perpetuating ..and runs amok for miles causing subsidence and all manner of catastrophes for hundreds of years.
http://www.channel4.com/news/is-the-future-of-british-coal-burning-it-underground

i used to work in a coal mine ..old seams did catch fire ..it would take us months to stop them ..we had to bore holes from other levels pump cement down them..and prey ..

but we were right there at the point of the action ..could see what was happening and where ,..

the seams did self perpetuate ..and they would draw air from any source that the fire would pull ..sometimes a mile away




all the best..mark

rohart
01-12-2012, 04:28 PM
There used to be a toy museum somewhere in Paddington in London. It occupied one four storey standard width Georgian house. The top floor had wirking models of funfairs. There was a working model of a coal mine, and of course a pretty good railway layout. It even had a model of Teddy Roosevelt deciding not to shoot the bear !

It is there no more. I heard it had been bought and transferred to Japan. These guys feed us electronic games, then steal (buy) our heritage and take it away, all because we can't be bothered either to pay for it to stay here or move it to less expensive parts of town.

If supermarkets move out of town to save money, and be nearer to where people live in the suburbs, why can't museums do the same ?

oil mac
01-12-2012, 05:49 PM
Mark,
Like your goodself, as a youngster, i worked for a part of my early life in the mining industry, & know a little of the problems of spontaneous combustion, & an underground seam burning,

Somehow or other, I tend to wonder has humanity got itself on a cleft stick of energy requirements= environmental disasters bigtime, In the light of fairly recent oil spillages , nuclear contamination etc. It is in my humble opinion, a moot point as to How much can one calculate safety where mother nature is involved, It would seem to me to be a gamble, Do we let the lights go out or throw our dice on computer modelling & theories?

What worries me is a photograph i saw of a mining area in America, where a catastrophic underground fire has ravaged the land and townships for miles over a timespan of many years,

Has anyone thought of the effects of an earthquake? Me, for one being a simple, non scientific, or a particularly learned soul, in this or any other such modern scientific matters, Find myself, dependant on safety guarantees from the good folk who exploit todays vast range of technologies, in all the vast scientific fields, in this fast flowing, and ever changing world

Hope some of the forum members can enlighten us.

derekm
01-13-2012, 11:34 AM
Talking about coal mines

has anyone here heard about the latest idea they have for all the uneconomical to mine coal seams they have in the UK.

They have this idea, to pump air down bore holes to the seams, set fire to them ..and then collect the heat and power the turbines in power stations, which will be built near by .

i don't know about this ..sounds like the recipe for a huge disaster ..where by the burning becomes uncontrolled and becomes self perpetuating ..and runs amok for miles causing subsidence and all manner of catastrophes for hundreds of years.
http://www.channel4.com/news/is-the-future-of-british-coal-burning-it-underground

i used to work in a coal mine ..old seams did catch fire ..it would take us months to stop them ..we had to bore holes from other levels pump cement down them..and prey ..

but we were right there at the point of the action ..could see what was happening and where ,..

the seams did self perpetuate ..and they would draw air from any source that the fire would pull ..sometimes a mile away




all the best..mark


The coal refered to here is under the sea in swansea bay

aboard_epsilon
01-13-2012, 11:59 AM
The coal refered to here is under the sea in swansea bay

Yup ..and .the seam is also probably joined to the seam that runs under swansea

in the video ..it says they are planning to do it in many areas in the uk ..swansea first

UCG = underground coal gasification

CBM = coal bed methane

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmenergy/795/795we02.gif

all the best.markj

Charles P
01-13-2012, 04:50 PM
John

Last time I went there were some rather nice aero engines on racks. You could essentially crawl all around them. A chum of mine went last summer with his kids and said that his wife got rather annoyed at the amount of time he spent drooling over Hispano Suiza, Curtis and Cirrus engines.

It's true that the Science Museum does have a lot of stuff not on display but it's either in reserve collections in London or a hanger at Wroughton near Swindon.
I wanted to see a particular sectioned Cozette supercharger that I was told used to be on display in the early 60's. I emailed them cold one morning and by that afternoon I had PDFs of the paperwork on it and an appointment to view it organised. Come the day they gave me plenty of time, a pair of white gloves and let me handle, examine, measure and photograph it.
As an aside for those of you who like films the building that houses the Science Museum's London Reserve Collection was used as the Circus headquarters in the recent film of "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy".

Charles