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Black_Moons
01-09-2012, 09:37 PM
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/09/smart_meter_privacy_oops/

I recall a thread awhile back over fears of smart power meters, and them being hacked, showing basicly what kind of appliances you have and.. when your home or not.

Well, They have already been hacked, and apparently one energy company had them misconfigured and they where sending data in plain text.

'This meant that confidential electricity consumption data was sent in clear text. Because meter readings were sent in clear text, the researchers were able to intercept and send back forged (incorrect) meter readings back to Discovergy.'

But wait! it gets worse:

'In addition, the researchers discovered that a complete historical record of users' meter usage was easily obtained from Discovergy's servers via an interface designed to provide access to usage for only the last three months. The meters supplied by the firm log power usage in two-second intervals. This fine-grained data was enough not only to determine what appliances a user was using over a period of time – thanks to the power signature of particular devices – but even which film they were watching.'

Im sure the MPAA will love that :P 'Heres a $20,000 fine in the mail, we determined you where watching an unlisenced film' 'That power signature was my CNC, not a cam movie rip' 'Good luck explaining that in coart'

lakeside53
01-09-2012, 09:44 PM
"They" can hack mine all they like! I could care less.

flathead4
01-09-2012, 10:32 PM
... thanks to the power signature of particular devices – but even which film they were watching.

Yeah, right.


providing a warning for consumers should they, for example, have left an iron on after leaving the house

And how, pray tell, would they know I left the house?

I think I am safe in saying that that is BS.

danlb
01-09-2012, 11:01 PM
Yeah, right.



And how, pray tell, would they know I left the house?

I think I am safe in saying that that is BS.


I suspect that one way to decide that you'd left the house is to detect the pattern of lights, TV's etc that get turned off one by one as you get ready to leave.

Other than going to bed, there is no other time that I walk through the house and turn it all off.


More disturbing is the fact that they were able to intercept and spoof the data that went back to the power company. There are many ways to screw with someone if you can control their power. You can make it look like they are running a pot farm, for instance. Or just run up their bill. Or shut the power off remotely.

There are secure ways to network your equipment, but that's awfully hard to do when it is installed at a customer's site.

Dan

Black_Moons
01-09-2012, 11:12 PM
I suspect that one way to decide that you'd left the house is to detect the pattern of lights, TV's etc that get turned off one by one as you get ready to leave.

Other than going to bed, there is no other time that I walk through the house and turn it all off.

Dan

Even better still is this implys that they already are filtering the data for such events (or fully admit to planing to) and building a database of 'who is home', Nodoubt combined with long term record keeping and appliance identification.

a database that knows exactly what hours, on what week days, with what precentage of certainty that you are not home, I wonder how many break and enter thiefs would pay good money for that list? Maybe combined with a list of what appliances are 'suspected' to be running at the house? Just sort by estimated number of unique appliances and certainty of not home on monday to friday and what a wonderful time saving list you have.

lakeside53
01-09-2012, 11:26 PM
You're crediting the toothless meth-head crims with a lot more grey-matter then they have left. "They" prescribe pills for paranoia:D

fixerdave
01-09-2012, 11:34 PM
People don't fully understand the power of computing or the internet. Smart meters are a prime example. Yes, it will be possible for power companies, or anyone else with access to the data, to EVENTUALLY (big caveat here) correlate this data with the physical world and know a great deal about you and your habits. They'll know a lot more than you'd expect them to be able to figure out. But, the bigger problem is that power costs money, money is a prime motivator to human beings, and humans share stuff on the internet... stuff like the latest way to automatically hack the smart meter outside your house.

If you want to run a grow-op now, you have to bypass the stupid meter, which is somewhat interesting when the power is live. But, with a smart meter running on an accessible communications channel, given enough time and resources it will be possible to break the cryptography and start mucking the output to your advantage. Yes, this will be very, very hard to do (assuming they bother turning on the encryption) but there are also very, very smart people out there exploring this stuff, just for fun. As soon as they figure it out, they will share with everyone on the internet. Then, even complete idiots will be able to "crack the meter" and start screwing around. Everyone from drug-growers to pissed-off Xs.

It will wind up being a race between a very expensive installed base of smart meters and very rapidly-evolving computer resources... The odds are stacked against the slower-moving target. I'm no expert in smart meter technology but, just on general principles, I don't think the power companies really thought this one through.

lakeside53
01-09-2012, 11:38 PM
They thought of one thing - here they still have mechnical dials in addition to "smart reading".

Black_Moons
01-09-2012, 11:51 PM
They thought of one thing - here they still have mechnical dials in addition to "smart reading".

Lets hope they bother reading those dials. When I moved, they decided to charge me for my 'estimated' power usage for the month I moved.. Instead of reading the damn meter to actualy get a final value for the account. I had to drive hours back to give them the current meter reading myself after I got the outragious bill! (The month I had been moving everything was off and I moved in the middle of the month, So I ended up paying for a couple days of the new occupant too, Grrr)

Evan
01-09-2012, 11:52 PM
Hard to do? Not at all. Power signatures are easy to decode. I can do it with the temperature patterns of my hot water storage tank using a 1 minute sample rate. It shows when clouds go over, when the furnace runs and when we take showers or run the dishwasher and washing machine. All that is reflected by the changes in energy input both from outside or from my furnace run times and the amount of hot water used, how long and at what times.

The smart meter will be able to record changes of a watt or less with precise timing. It doesn't need access to smart appliances to build a very complete profile. What film did you watch? Your TV turned on at 20:00 and you ran the microwave at 20:21 which was 30 seconds after the commercial started for the XYZ network offering that night. Then the fridge light came on for 8 seconds. The fridge light came on again at 20:49, 21:17 and 21:44 which was when you opened it to get a beer at another commercial. Correlation complete.

oldtiffie
01-09-2012, 11:53 PM
http://www.google.com.au/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&source=hp&q=smart+meter+problems&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&pbx=1&oq=smart+meter&aq=2&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=0l0l1l2717l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6acbe3b58fd74454&biw=1280&bih=542

This is pretty well correct for smart meters which are being progressively installed in the State of Victoria in Australia.

Apparently, they can be set (with the owners approval) to start/stop some appliances such as large electrical energy-using appliances such as air-conditioners etc. They can be used for selective "load-shedding" ("brown-outs") in case of real or potential over-load or damage to the electrical reticulation system.

There are other "benefits" such as varying time tarrifs and/or the ability to remotely read the client/customer useage or to limit or disconect supply for non-payment of bills etc.

Thus far - putting aside the usual over-hyped potential "problems" by the "usual suspects" - I have no concerns.

I am quite prepared to pay extra if I use high-load machines in my shop (or the house/property) during high-load and high(er) tarrifs as I am a strong believer in the principle of "user pays".

I daresay there may be some glitches but so far the progresive installation seems to be going well - with an acceptable/small "hiccups".

fixerdave
01-10-2012, 12:00 AM
They thought of one thing - here they still have mechnical dials in addition to "smart reading".

Yes, and then they'll have to pay the smuck to come read it - so now we have no cost savings. They should have run a more secure communications channel. I mean, they literally have wire running everywhere; they routinely have to go around and service this infrastructure. They could have started laying a high-frequency network on that wire - point to point, over a few years until they had something to connect into, something instead of wireless. Why does a power company need wireless?

It would have been a slower roll-out, but the end results would have been a lot more dependable. As it stands, they will eventually get to a point where the people that want to steal power or otherwise muck the system will be able to do so, and they will need to do so to cover their own meter-bypass activities, and they will need to do so in a random area around theirs to mask their particular area. So now, instead of the grow-op down the street being a "fire hazard," your meter will get hacked to generate artificially high readings to cover off the bypassed power. Of course, if you don't know, I don't suspect the power company is going to tell you, even if they catch the other guy.

I don't know... maybe the wireless technology is obscure enough to make it slightly prohibitive to hack... something to make hacking the signal more hassle than it's worth. I'm just thinking that, to the right people, it's worth a lot.

Evan
01-10-2012, 12:10 AM
BC Hydro and I are having a discussion. I will allow them to install a smart meter but NOT a radio transmitter. They have no legal force of law that allows them to install a radio and they cannot make it a condition of service since that is the domain of the utilities commission. The utilities commission is provincial and cannot mandate transmitters since that is solely a federal responsibility and the federal law has no provision for requiring the installation of a transmitter on private property.

We shall see what happens.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/meter.jpg

Black_Moons
01-10-2012, 12:17 AM
BC Hydro and I are having a discussion. I will allow them to install a smart meter but NOT a radio transmitter. They have no legal force of law that allows them to install a radio and they cannot make it a condition of service since that is the domain of the utilities commission. The utilities commission is provincial and cannot mandate transmitters since that is solely a federal responsibility and the federal law has no provision for requiring the installation of a transmitter on private property.

We shall see what happens.



Nice! They have thier security tag guarding the meter. And you have yours. :)

Somehow I think they would have less problems with bypassing if they adopted your design!

Evan
01-10-2012, 12:19 AM
Smart meters have already been hacked. The Itron meters that are being installed here run on a Cisco IPv6 network and are very similar to the power control systems targeted by the StuxNet worm.

There are serious national security implications to being able to take over the power networks in a country. The StuxNet worm is incredibly sophisticated and was able to destroy thousands of uranium centrifuges in Iran by tampering with the power control systems for the machines. Taking down a network of smart meters is trivial in comparison.

danlb
01-10-2012, 12:44 AM
Hard to do? Not at all. Power signatures are easy to decode. I can do it with the temperature patterns of my hot water storage tank using a 1 minute sample rate. It shows when clouds go over, when the furnace runs and when we take showers or run the dishwasher and washing machine. All that is reflected by the changes in energy input both from outside or from my furnace run times and the amount of hot water used, how long and at what times.

The smart meter will be able to record changes of a watt or less with precise timing. It doesn't need access to smart appliances to build a very complete profile. .

That assumes a fairly clean and known environment. A user such as I has so many oddball gadgets running (some on computer control, some motion detector, etc.... ) it becomes a much more complex equation. They can't guess which of my 4 tivo's just spun up a disk. Neither would they guess that that my UPS just went to voltage boosting mode because of a brown out ( adding a few watts).

It might work well to assume that a 27.15 watt load will be a specific TV, but that ignores so many manufacturing tolerances.... IIRC, most electronics are +- 10%, even the Utility's voltage.

In the end, it comes down to recording a bunch of data and then applying logic to it to make educated guesses. There are bound to be bold, predictable loads like water heaters. Then there are the '101.5 watts comes on at 6:45 am M-F' type of event that can be imputed to be a lightbulb as someone gets up. I doubt that they could ever say with 100% certainty what is happening and what combination of devices are in use based on a granularity of 2 seconds and 1 watt.

Dan

lakeside53
01-10-2012, 12:52 AM
Yes, and then they'll have to pay the smuck to come read it - so now we have no cost savings.
.


These are wireless, but keep the manual dials, so there is no arguement as to the power used - they can be checked for correspondance. However, in my rural area they have to drive a data logging pickup truck around (even down my 1000 foot driveway) as we have no lamp posts.. so they can't hang their usual rf gear economically. In more suburban areas, no trucks needed.

I'm sure they have a few generations in use. Mine was one of the first.

wierdscience
01-10-2012, 01:03 AM
This is why I intend to go off grid and shortly,that and the f---king bill is going up thanks to power plant closings.

Solar hot water heater,just enough of a solar system on the roof to run a small fridge and power the computer.Genset to run the shop and wash clothes.The utility will find out I don't need them.

Willy
01-10-2012, 01:07 AM
I personally think the scariest part of the smart meter agenda is that now the power companies will be able to initialize demand billing for peak use hours.
In the past the utility providers knew exactly when peak demand use times occur. They of course cannot charge anyone specifically since they have no proof that an individual is using electricity during peak times.

But now with the proof clearly on the table they will be able to charge higher rates under the guise of evening out usage to an already overtaxed system. These meters will more than pay for themselves in short order now that the utility providers have the "goods" on the consumer.

Get used to taking your showers and doing the laundry at 2:00AM.;)

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 01:16 AM
Why not let all the drama, hype and "ckicken little" stuff - before the event - die down and see what options you have when the smart meters are installed.

fixerdave
01-10-2012, 01:28 AM
These are wireless, but keep the manual dials, so there is no arguement as to the power used - they can be checked for correspondance....

Yes, and once people start mucking with the wireless, they will have to regularly check for correspondence. That's what I was trying to say. Well, I suppose they could check much less frequently and/or leave it to the end user to do the checking. If 5 people in an area all complained that their bill didn't agree with the meter, I suppose they could go round and maybe figure out who was skimming power and trying to cover it up. If no one complains I don't suppose the power company is going to worry if the wrong people are paying for the power, so long as they get their money.

So, yes, I will concede that having local readable meters will mitigate a lot of potential mischief. However, I still maintain that wireless seems a very silly way to go for a power company that runs a physical wire to every house. There are ways to pass a signal down a power wire and, with the right infrastructure, it could be a lot more secure. I mean, yeah, peer-2-peer wireless mesh communications is a pretty cool system (albeit not in rural areas, as you point out) but a wired power distribution systems seems like a stupid place to implement it.

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 01:37 AM
You can always check your paper/mailed and/or electronic (email) account readings against the meter dial readings for the billing period/s.

I will just wait and see. There will be enough people getting "wound up" or paranoid about this sort of thing without me being added to the list.

Our use will be electronically recorded by the power utility comany at short intervals and there will no manual meter readings normally required. If any manual readings/checks are required it will be read by the company with a hand-held data recorder.

tumutbound
01-10-2012, 01:43 AM
Other than going to bed, there is no other time that I walk through the house and turn it all off.


How about just after you get your first power bill? :)

I just got mine and for a single person household, it's higher than I expected. It doesn't include the workshop 'goodies' which are on a separate connection.

Evan
01-10-2012, 02:24 AM
Why not let all the drama, hype and "ckicken little" stuff - before the event - die down and see what options you have when the smart meters are installed.

If you want to see what the real agenda of the utilities is then just read the spec sheets for the meter controllers from the likes of Texas Instruments et al. It has nothing to do with saving energy, only saving cost and exercising much more control over time of use and billing. They really hate using the peaker plants as they lose money when they run them. If they can force the load to other times they make much more money without building additional generating infrastructure. They want to even out the demand.

This is what the demand looks like today for California, updated to 23:08 jan 9, 2012. The variation from minimum to maximum is a full 30% of maximum. Forcing loads to off peak times will be very profitable and pay for the smart meter program in short order. The only problem is that people don't live the hours they would like to see the energy used.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/caiso.gif

Also, smart meters will provide several new ways to bill users that couldn't be measured before. In particular, low power factor and increased waveshape distortion will be charged as an extra cost item. Maximum demand billing may also come to the residential market. That will hit home shop users especially hard.

The issues with hacking and other security concerns are very real and the utilities don't care. It's a cost of doing business to them and the possible inconvenience or even serious individual financial or physical harm that it might cost customers is irrelevant. The banks are already proof of that. Account hacking and related identity theft problems are very real and cost consumers a great deal of money. The banks still make money and really don't care. Just a couple of days ago a local bank ran into a overseas cheque fraud from a local person that had been taken in. It will cost somebody around $10,000 but it it isn't clear who will pick up the full tab.

Evan
01-10-2012, 02:33 AM
So, yes, I will concede that having local readable meters will mitigate a lot of potential mischief.

The meters here have local readability but it is strictly an electronic LCD display. It will indicate whatever it is programmed to show. It is not the source of billing information even if the meter is read on site. On site readings are taken via an IR port on the front of the meter using a special reader peripheral connected to a tablet or equivalent.

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 03:00 AM
Well, lets all just wait and see.

All the drama and jumping up and down is only going to upset some people needlessly. And if it achieves nothing it is counter-productive at best.

We will just "adjust" if, as and when required.

Same as oil/gas/petrol, water, sewerage and municipal charges etc.

You can always opt to use less of it at the cheaper tarrifs if you like and if you are able.

I wonder if those who buy and/or use existing or new/er large/er high-demand shop machines - including climate control - take too much notice of the associated utility costs anyway.

Evan
01-10-2012, 03:13 AM
This isn't somewhere off in the future. Smart meters are already installed in some jurisdictions for years. The experience so far is very negative in many jurisdictions. In Ontario the utility cannot even determine if the meter program has saved money at all. What it has done without doubt is increased cost to consumers.

darryl
01-10-2012, 03:20 AM
Don't look up Zeitgeist if you are tired of hearing about being screwed-

vpt
01-10-2012, 08:23 AM
Paranoia. People are gonna know when you leave the house? lol What about the guy sitting in his car watching you leave your house? They know what you are doing? OH NO! Someone knows I am making popcorn and watching a movie!

SmoggyTurnip
01-10-2012, 09:33 AM
If you want to see the real agenda ...

saving cost and exercising much more control over time of use and billing. ...

They want to even out the demand.



I get the feeling that you think this is evil.

Rustybolt
01-10-2012, 09:53 AM
I get the feeling that you think this is evil.


No entity, other than another human being, does anything for your own good.

photomankc
01-10-2012, 10:45 AM
I get the feeling that you think this is evil.


Evil has #$%@ to do with it. I'm not all smiles and giggles at the prospect of a utility that I have no choice in service from micro-charging me for every variance they can think of. As Evan points out there is certainly benefit to them for averaging out the load more and I understand that but I also understand that there is not a lot I can do to reasonably change that pattern. I need lights in the evening like everyone else. I need A/C in the afternoon like everyone else. My dishwasher and washing machine run in the evening like most everyone else. You can't level that demand all that much so all it really looks like to me is a way to charge more for exactly the same service I was getting before.

I want to start charging you a premium to eat lunch at lunch time. If you want to eat lunch at 10:00am then it's the same rate as before but if you want to eat from 10:30am to 2:00pm then it 30% more. It really levels out my staff demand not have those peak meal times. By the way, you can only eat here, at this store. --- All you are really doing is instituting a 30% price increase because people can't and don't eat lunch at 10:00am or 2:30pm.

I can't fire the electric company and get another one so I see it a little differently than my cell phone provider or ISP or business cafe. I also see a serious difference in having the old guy in the car track my comming and going and activity and an automated system that tracks people by the millions and mines the data 24hrs/365.

Because a thing is not 'evil' or illegal does not mean that I have to smile and say 'OK George, that sounds swell'.

Rustybolt
01-10-2012, 11:37 AM
I get the feeling that you think this is evil.


No entity, other than another human being, does anything for your own good.

hardtail
01-10-2012, 12:25 PM
I personally think the scariest part of the smart meter agenda is that now the power companies will be able to initialize demand billing for peak use hours.
In the past the utility providers knew exactly when peak demand use times occur. They of course cannot charge anyone specifically since they have no proof that an individual is using electricity during peak times.

But now with the proof clearly on the table they will be able to charge higher rates under the guise of evening out usage to an already overtaxed system. These meters will more than pay for themselves in short order now that the utility providers have the "goods" on the consumer.

Get used to taking your showers and doing the laundry at 2:00AM.;)

Since Alberta deregulated the utility market my bills have risen 400% in less than a decade......

I believe the full functions of TOU meters here will occur in 2017 at which time there will be day and night time rates, night time to occur from 9pm to 7am which will be 50% less, of course this doesn't say that the night rate will decrease or the day rate will increase from current......the only thing I will predict is that it won't be getting any better........

peyton
01-10-2012, 12:30 PM
These meters will more than pay for themselves in short order now....

That was never really a problem around here (Houston) ... *we*, the users, pay for our smart meters. ~$3.25/mo.

Peyton

aboard_epsilon
01-10-2012, 12:41 PM
Yes Evan, you can stop them ..

but you cant stop them adding extra charges to your bill to cover the extra costs of you not complying

if you fight them it will cost you money..and probably a few years off your life ..

generating your own is the only way to beat them

all the best.markj

Evan
01-10-2012, 01:03 PM
I get the feeling that you think this is evil.

They are a monopoly and as such require special government regulation. The reason they are so regulated it to prevent the abuse of their special position as a supplier of a necessary product. The utility company here, BC Hydro, is what is called a Crown Corporation. It is owned by the government and the owners of the corporation are the people of the Province of British Columbia. In this province that is a literal fact as a previous government actually issued shares to every adult in the province many years ago.

As a shareholder I have a direct say in how the corporation is run. In this matter the corporation is taking an absolute hard line attitude that they will do what they want regardless of any consequences and without consultation with the owners, period.

They have my back up and I am going to show them that they cannot ignore the people they serve, especially when they don't have any legal right to proceed as they are. I predict that I will win this little fight and I will enjoy every minute of it. I dislike smug self serving officious bureaucrats who have forgotten by whom they are employed. I shall remind them.

Evan
01-10-2012, 01:11 PM
Paranoia. People are gonna know when you leave the house? lol What about the guy sitting in his car watching you leave your house?

That guy around here will have some explaining to do in short order.

aboard_epsilon
01-10-2012, 01:14 PM
They are a monopoly and as such require special government regulation. The reason they are so regulated it to prevent the abuse of their special position as a supplier of a necessary product. The utility company here, BC Hydro, is what is called a Crown Corporation. It is owned by the government and the owners of the corporation are the people of the Province of British Columbia. In this province that is a literal fact as a previous government actually issued shares to every adult in the province many years ago.

As a shareholder I have a direct say in how the corporation is run. In this matter the corporation is taking an absolute hard line attitude that they will do what they want regardless of any consequences and without consultation with the owners, period.

They have my back up and I am going to show them that they cannot ignore the people they serve, especially when they don't have any legal right to proceed as they are. I predict that I will win this little fight and I will enjoy every minute of it. I dislike smug self serving officious bureaucrats who have forgotten by whom they are employed. I shall remind them.

keep us posted on how it goes ..

it may be interesting to find out how the little man can do anything to beat the big man.

all the best.....mark

Evan
01-10-2012, 01:22 PM
This won't be the first time that I have taken down a windmill. In a previous fight I defeated a proposal to install a home for underage convicts that was to be located on this hill just 500 metres from our house. It was a proposal by a local native run organization and they were using a little known part of the provincial law that allowed them to override local zoning ordinances and to proceed without public consultation.

I put a stop to it, halted it dead in the water. It took nearly a year and was fought in the court of public opinion. I won.

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 04:41 PM
Do hackers wear hacking jackets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacking_jacket

The Artful Bodger
01-10-2012, 06:00 PM
This won't be the first time that I have taken down a windmill. In a previous fight I defeated a proposal to install a home for underage convicts that was to be located on this hill just 500 metres from our house. It was a proposal by a local native run organization and they were using a little known part of the provincial law that allowed them to override local zoning ordinances and to proceed without public consultation.

I put a stop to it, halted it dead in the water. It took nearly a year and was fought in the court of public opinion. I won.


Thats a pity as I am sure you are just the sort of chap that would have been a great example to those young tearaways.

Evan
01-10-2012, 06:20 PM
Under better controlled circumstances that would have been possible. There were numerous reasons why it wasn't. Nimby was the least of them. The "plan" as was being implemented was ludicrous and would have resulted in far more harm than good for the youth involved. This was primarily because of the particular people involved in originating the plan. The majority of people including of the native population agreed with me.

Had I done nothing it would have gone ahead and by now it would have failed dismally. In the interval much harm would likely have come to the youth involved including very likely prison time for some. The main problem was that it was being implemented by a small activist group with no knowledge of the actual needs of such children in trouble. My wife and I have a very clear understanding of the issues as we have previously fostered young (including a newborn for over a year) and teenage native children including one suffering from FAS. My wife grew up with a foster brother and sister, both native with FAS. When the native society tried to play the "race card" it blew up in their face.

Lew Hartswick
01-10-2012, 06:40 PM
I dislike smug self serving officious bureaucrats who have forgotten by whom they are employed. I shall remind them.
Hey!! That sound just (EXACTLY) like our congress. :-)
...lew...

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 06:44 PM
Here is a tale of a Knight in Shining Armour (rusty actually) who took on a wind-mill and got sat on his ar*e for his troubles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Don_Quijote_and_Sancho_Panza.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Honor%C3%A9_Daumier_017_(Don_Quixote).jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quixo-panza.jpg

at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote

Watch out for those smart (clever??) meters as they pack quite a wallop!!

Black_Moons
01-10-2012, 07:40 PM
I dislike smug self serving officious bureaucrats who have forgotten by whom they are employed. I shall remind them.

Exactly what I can't figure out.

Why do people put up with the government doing things *TO* them, And not *FOR* them? The government is not there to make the government better, bigger, more profitable (As in larger salerys/kickbacks/bribess), more 'moral', etc.

Its there to provide *service* to the people. Nothing more, Nothing less.

It seems they all think we work for them, And are under thier rule, And not the other way around!

oldtiffie
01-10-2012, 08:02 PM
Instead of moaning and groaning with a "poor me" attitude about Government and smart meters etc. etc. which you can do nothing about other than put up with and adjust to it, why not and get on with life with a happier frame of mind and a more positive outlook.

sasquatch
01-10-2012, 08:33 PM
Ok,, Anybody "IN" for a Barbecue and a few Cold Beers??:D

Lew Hartswick
01-10-2012, 09:44 PM
Ok,, Anybody "IN" for a Barbecue and a few Cold Beers??:D
I'm all for it but just where " Location: north bay area " should I
look for you, and when is the Bar-B-Q scheduled???
...Lew...

Mad Scientist
01-10-2012, 11:02 PM
Instead of moaning and groaning with a "poor me" attitude about Government and smart meters etc. etc. which you can do nothing about other than put up with and adjust to it, why not and get on with life with a happier frame of mind and a more positive outlook.
The problem with this attitude is you are telling these in power that they are free do anything they want and you will submit to anything they say. That is not freedom or a way to a happier life.



If you want to see what the real agenda of the utilities is then just read the spec sheets for the meter controllers from the likes of Texas Instruments et al. It has nothing to do with saving energy, only saving cost and exercising much more control over time of use and billing. They really hate using the peaker plants as they lose money when they run them. If they can force the load to other times they make much more money without building additional generating infrastructure. They want to even out the demand.


Bingo right on!
With smart meters if the power companies can not supply the needed power they can remotely turn off your air conditioners, etc. to “balance the load”. Of course they will sell the idea by saying "you can run your AC all you want at night for a cheaper rate". Meanwhile all your rates will go up because electricity is now considered a scarce commodity. Thus this is a win win scenario for the power companies they don’t have to build new plants and they can charge you more for while supplying you with less.

hardtail
01-10-2012, 11:36 PM
As I understand when TOU meters go into their intended usage here in 2017, night time rates will be the same as previous and day time rates from 7am to 9pm will rise 50%, of course they immediately make that as pure profit and try to encourage some residential load shifting to think you are saving money and Momma can stay up til 2 am folding the kids clothes........

Right now AB resets it's power rates every 15 mins, there was talk to use one predetermined day a month to set the rate........hmmmm take a generator or two offline the day before and create a falsely high import situation and then send out bills to hundreds of thousands of customers based on that amount while the generators are going back online......

One of AB's "Trusted Corporate power producers" for decades before deregulation.........the new way of doing business.....

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/transalta+manipulated+alberta+electricity+market+l ast+fall+offers+to+pay+fines/6442517436/story.html

Evan
01-11-2012, 12:59 AM
Instead of moaning and groaning with a "poor me" attitude about Government and smart meters etc. etc. which you can do nothing about other than put up with and adjust to it, why not and get on with life with a happier frame of mind and a more positive outlook.

I can and am doing something about it. Sitting around doing nothing would be far more stressful and depressing than taking action. There is nothing positive about letting the bastards grind you down. It is also the direct route to complete loss of freedom. Protest is the only way to counteract that. It can and should be within the system up to the point that becomes impossible. Then other means may be required. We aren't there, at least not yet.

I am also very busy fighting another bureaucratic battle right now which is much more important and is consuming a lot of my time. I don't intend to address it on this forum now as it is still very much unresolved. It's a very big issue and may well go as far as the federal parliament. It's primarily for this reason that I have not been doing much machining or other casual shop work. I haven't had time or the extra energy. Just today I consulted with three solicitors.

photomankc
01-11-2012, 01:22 AM
Here is a tale of a Knight in Shining Armour (rusty actually) who took on a wind-mill and got sat on his ar*e for his troubles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Don_Quijote_and_Sancho_Panza.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Honor%C3%A9_Daumier_017_(Don_Quixote).jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quixo-panza.jpg

at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote

Watch out for those smart (clever??) meters as they pack quite a wallop!!

Does the fact that people don't like them somewhere out there really cause you this much distress?

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 01:57 AM
"Slagging off" for no other purpose than having or engaging in a public moaning session that will achieve nothing of substance is not what I'd regard as being positive - or creative.

It seems that smart meters either have not or are not to be installed in some parts of the USA and other places in the near future.

I have read extensively on the situation here where many have been installed and the rest to be installed progressively over a fairly short time-frame.

I am on the "to be done" list and it does not bother me one bit.

Sure, electricity prices and enforceable tarrifs are coming (as they are for water, sewerage, gas, municipal rates and charges etc.) but we've had ample warning and any increase in costs is well within our planned contingency fund.

I might not like it but I accept the inevitability of it and we have to adjust to it - as we will.

I try to be realistic and reasonable and I try not to dwell in "Noddy land" or with the fairies at the bottom of our garden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noddy_(character)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Fairies

I don't mind a reasoned debate or discussion but I don't like circular arguments or unwarranted or unjustified "slagging off".

Nothing new there.

So, the sooner we get our smart meter and the sooner we can adjust to it and see what real costs, opportunites and penalties there are the better.

macona
01-11-2012, 05:46 AM
BC Hydro and I are having a discussion. I will allow them to install a smart meter but NOT a radio transmitter. They have no legal force of law that allows them to install a radio and they cannot make it a condition of service since that is the domain of the utilities commission. The utilities commission is provincial and cannot mandate transmitters since that is solely a federal responsibility and the federal law has no provision for requiring the installation of a transmitter on private property.

We shall see what happens.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/meter.jpg

What does it say below the meter? Cant make it out.

-Jerry

blowlamp
01-11-2012, 06:19 AM
Assuming for a second that the power company were to get their wish.

What position would they be in, if, for some reason I can't think of at the moment, they were unable to receive a clear signal from their transmitter?


Martin.

Black_Moons
01-11-2012, 06:24 AM
"Slagging off" for no other purpose than having or engaging in a public moaning session that will achieve nothing of substance is not what I'd regard as being positive - or creative.



The only one engaging in a public moaning session is you. The rest of us are trying to raise some awareness, you just wanna rain on peoples efforts. Go away and find some other thread to whine about, You have stated your position clearly 8 times now in this thread and we don't need to hear it again.

Evan
01-11-2012, 06:26 AM
I don't recall seeing any circular arguments put forth here as yet. There is however one that exists for good reason. Smart meters will result in rate increases because smart meters cost money. The power company here is spending one billion of our money to install smart meters. To pay for them rates will necessarily go up.

What really get to me is that the power co is feeding us total BS. Here they claim the meters will never be used for time of use billing. Sure. Anyone that believes that can come see me about buying some shares in Lunar real estate.

They also claim that they need the meters because currently they have no idea how much power is being consumed, where and by whom and are effectively managing the grid "blind". Total BS. They know precisely how much power is being used, when and where, on a second by second basis. They claim that in order to satisfy the demand they must produce extra power just in case the demand goes up next minute unexpectedly.

Ridiculous. It's not like storing up fuel oil in advance of need. Electricity is not just perishable it is ephemeral. It isn't possible to make more of it than is used. They claim that it will enable them to monitor the voltage delivered to your house on an hourly basis. That's true but they cannot do anything about that except on a very large regional basis in a very general way and smart meters won't make a whit of difference. Keep in mind that we are talking about hydroelectric power. They aren't using peaker plants anywhere in the system. They can bring another generator online in sixty seconds and back off just as quickly. Nothing about smart meters will change how they manage power production in any way.

They are flat out lying to the public.

I have made some progress so far. They are now going to refrain from installing a meter at this time even though this area is scheduled for installs as we speak.

I just received this from them a couple of days ago:




Dear Mr. Williams,

Thank you for contacting us regarding BC Hydro’s Smart Metering Program. We apologize for the delay in responding to your email.

We do not have an opt out option. BC Hydro is committed to working with you to understand your specific concerns. The options available to you will depend on your individual concerns and circumstances. In addition, the costs associated with customization will also vary depending on your unique circumstances.

At this time, your concerns have been noted on your account and a smart meter will not be installed until we have communicated with you further.

The decision to move forward with the Smart Metering Program was based on a thorough evaluation of the technology and options available, extensive discussions with other utilities, and the incorporation of those lessons into our program.

(my emphasis)

Note that the one thing missing from their decision making process was any sort of public consultation even though they are a public owned utility that supplies the public and is paid entirely by the public.

Evan
01-11-2012, 06:31 AM
The sign below the meter:

http://ixian.ca/pics9/warning.jpg

Evan
01-11-2012, 06:46 AM
What position would they be in, if, for some reason I can't think of at the moment, they were unable to receive a clear signal from their transmitter?

That is a good question and there is not a clear answer. They are using the unlicensed ISM (Industry, Scientific and Medical) band between 910 and 928 mhz. It isn't intended for communications and devices operating on the band have no protection from interference of any sort. Any communications devices running on the band are not illegal but they are also not within the intended purpose of the band. As such they explicitly are not to cause interference and enjoy no protection from interference.

I am not objecting to having a smart meter installed. I am specifically objecting to having a transmitter installed. This is giving them a fit since they don't know how to deal with it. The type of meter they are installing is available with numerous communication options including cell phone, TCP/IP, hard wired telephone modem, zigbee short range link, IR front readout and even satellite dish connection. I don't want a transmitter because it may interfere with my own RF activities.

They are using the band to avoid paying license fees to Industry Canada (the regulating authority) to operate in another band set aside explicitly for the purpose. Because of that they will get no support from Industry Canada if they complain about interference. It is also standard Industry Canada policy to not investigate any complaints of interference in the band anyway.

blowlamp
01-11-2012, 07:00 AM
A couple of other things I'm wondering.

Who pays for the electricity for these 24/7 transmissions, and if we take this collective extra consumption into account, then how much energy is being used just to collect data?

What's the effect of that on our resources?


Martin.

aboard_epsilon
01-11-2012, 07:34 AM
trouble is Evan ..if lots of people object to these meters ..

the way they will get around it is to give discounts to everyone that has one .

then over the years as you become more of a minority......then when you are only a handful left ..they will say ..you either have it /...or you pay a much much higher rate.

so you win the case ..but over time they win in the end.

all the best.markj

JoeLee
01-11-2012, 08:35 AM
I suspect that one way to decide that you'd left the house is to detect the pattern of lights, TV's etc that get turned off one by one as you get ready to leave.

Other than going to bed, there is no other time that I walk through the house and turn it all off.


More disturbing is the fact that they were able to intercept and spoof the data that went back to the power company. There are many ways to screw with someone if you can control their power. You can make it look like they are running a pot farm, for instance. Or just run up their bill. Or shut the power off remotely.

There are secure ways to network your equipment, but that's awfully hard to do when it is installed at a customer's site.

Dan

Why would a power company care when you leave your house or what movie your watching????? and how the hell could they tell what you were watching on TV anyway???
Well....... if in the future any one posts a thread on how to hack into one of these meters please pass along the info so I can reduce my gas bill.
Piss on all of them.

JL...............

sasquatch
01-11-2012, 09:07 AM
I never paid an electrical bill in over 30 years, due to an overcharge dispute i had with them a long time ago.

I managed to go off grid which was not easy but i have no regrets in doing it. We raised 4 kids that way, and those kids learned a point that will benefit them for years to come.

At times being off grid cost me more than being on grid, but there was a point to be made.

They created a massive debt,, through stupid over spending, then made the public pay for it, young people are still paying that debt off that weren't even born then.

Things out of control.

Black_Moons
01-11-2012, 09:16 AM
Why would a power company care when you leave your house or what movie your watching????? and how the hell could they tell what you were watching on TV anyway???
Well....... if in the future any one posts a thread on how to hack into one of these meters please pass along the info so I can reduce my gas bill.
Piss on all of them.

JL...............

For the exact same reason twitter, google, facebook and the rest of them want to know such things: To sell the information to 3rd partys who want to better target you and sell you crap. Or just anyone willing to pay for the information really. Meaning anyone who thinks they can manage to profit from it.

With no benefit to myself in such 'services', why should I let them?

As for the tv issue, Modren TV's with led backlights do vary considerable in power draw depending on the average brightness of a scene. Its not unthinkable that with some decent processing power (That you can easily buy for cheap these days) the pattrens could be extracted from power usage alone for popular TV models showing popular movies

if someone say, the RIAA buys 100 diffrent TV's and data logs them directly playing each of a few 1000 movies, They will have a very clear dataset to work from, And then starts sending out lawsuits to anyone who matchs the 'power consumption profile' of an unreleased DVD for example, Where you will have to prove you did not watch what thier logs say you watched.

Consider that computers can process human speech. Lifting the pattren of a movie's power usage with some odd loads kicking in every 10~60 seconds is no problem when you have 2 seconds resolution. (About 3600 data points for a 2 hour movie)

Not everyone wants thier every move tracked and sold to the highest bidder for no benefit to themselfs. I don't have a facebook, twitter or google account and I like it that way.

The problem is not even so much the 'advertising', but the fact that sooner or later, someone will find illegal/inconviant to me uses for the data, And the data will not be very well secured (If credit card numbers get hacked and are 'highly secure' what makes you think some 'user profile' data will be any more secure?), Or it will just be outright sold to questionable partys without any backround checks.

And how long is it untill you have the police knocking at your door, questioning you because a crime was commited nearby while you where identifyed to not have been watching TV or fliping light switchs?

Evan
01-11-2012, 11:40 AM
Who pays for the electricity for these 24/7 transmissions, and if we take this collective extra consumption into account, then how much energy is being used just to collect data?

What's the effect of that on our resources?

The meters use a maximum of 2 watts of power. That is standard in the meter business regardless of the type of meter. It isn't insignificant on the large scale since in BC it will cost something like 10 to 20 gigawatt hours per year. At retail rates that is about half a million dollars per year.

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 12:18 PM
Among other things, one of the big costs is infrastrucure - ie power generation plant and distribution networks.

The demand curve is not too unlike a sine wave.

It costs a lot of money to get and maintain extra maximum demand generation and distribution capacity. And there may be a lot of plant working or idling or in reserve at other then high demand periods.

If some of the maximum demand could be reduced and that consumpttion transferred (not lost) to the lower demand periods the demand sinewave amplitude would be reduced and the low demand period (where there is more available capacity) increased accordingly and the amplitude of the demand curve would be reduced and never be at but be closer to a flat line.

They achieve that by a series of penalty costs and reductions in unit power consumption so that there is a cash incentive or penalty to customers/users by way of a series of tariffs that will or may vary from time to time during the day.

Our power grid network is national - not just state or provincial or local - and all the load is applied to it and any extra spot demand must be paid to local generators who may or may not have spare capacity and the addition over-loading has to be bought and supplied at spot prices, the level of which is determined by generation supply and distribution network capacity to supply the power needed by customers/users.

If they can reduce the incidence or frequency of power selective or non-planned or system black-outs or brown-outs it will suit me and I am prepared to pay extra and to change my power use periods if needs be and use the cash/cost incentive that goes with it.

Smart meters will allow the company to individually meter and control the maximum demand by individual users. Those most likely to use high demands will attract a larger incentive if they reduce high demand and a higher penalty if they don't.

I am quite prepared to wait and see and if needs be to pay a higher rate at a maximum demand period if needs be and conversely to pay less if I transfer my high demand periods to a sytem low demand (and higher spare capacity) time/s of day and get any cash incentives that may be available for doing so.

jugs
01-11-2012, 12:23 PM
The meters use a maximum of 2 watts of power. That is standard in the meter business regardless of the type of meter. It isn't insignificant on the large scale since in BC it will cost something like 10 to 20 gigawatt hours per year. At retail rates that is about half a million dollars per year.

BUT which side if the meter does it come from theirs or ours ????




I can and am doing something about it. Sitting around doing nothing would be far more stressful and depressing than taking action. There is nothing positive about letting the bastards grind you down. It is also the direct route to complete loss of freedom. Protest is the only way to counteract that. It can and should be within the system up to the point that becomes impossible. Then other means may be required. We aren't there, at least not yet.

I am also very busy fighting another bureaucratic battle right now which is much more important and is consuming a lot of my time. I don't intend to address it on this forum now as it is still very much unresolved. It's a very big issue and may well go as far as the federal parliament. It's primarily for this reason that I have not been doing much machining or other casual shop work. I haven't had time or the extra energy. Just today I consulted with three solicitors.


Well done evan, http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy096.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) someone has to fight the ba$$tads http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent110.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

lakeside53
01-11-2012, 12:52 PM
Bunch of paranoia and hype. If was the the big-brother worrying type (not!) "smart meters" are the least of YOUR problem. I'd not have a home network, wouldn't connect it to the internet, or cell phone with gps installed (maybe ANY cell phone), and only drive a buy a "pre-computer" car. As for what I watch on TV - LOL... I have Tivo so THEY know what I watch, and worse, my Chinese (Sony) TV is on the network, as is my blu-ray player - and both of these want me to ditch my local cable company and get my content from the web.

"Smart" power load shedding control has been in use for decades, maybe much of last century (someone can google). Maybe not in the USA were it's everyones right ;) to consume and burn whatever they want... but where I grew up (NZ) we had what is called "ripple control". Almost everyone used electric hot water heaters. There was a small control box that would respond to a frequency superimposed on the 50hz - IIRC something like 540hz. That would disable the hot water heater if the power grid needed load shedding. You didn't get a choice, nobody bitched, and we didn't need to dam anymore rivers for peak demand.

baldysm
01-11-2012, 12:54 PM
Paranoia. People are gonna know when you leave the house? lol What about the guy sitting in his car watching you leave your house? They know what you are doing? OH NO! Someone knows I am making popcorn and watching a movie!

Really? Sometimes I have to shake my head in wonder.

You do understand that the guy sitting in his car can be seen? Some guy sitting at the power company looking over smart meter usages can't be seen. He can be scoping you out and you won't know about it.

You do understand that it would be pretty easy to determine when you work, and hence when they can come into your house and help themselves to anything they want. If the usage has been constant the last few days with no real variation... guess what, your out of town, since your not using TVs, mills and making popcorn.

You may not give a rats as about your own security and that of your family, but I do care about mine. I don't want anyone who works at a power company to be able to determine when I am home and when I am not by looking at my power meter.

There is a case that was on Yahoo recently. Cop gave a woman a speeding ticket, and then used the information he had access to to go to her house and ask her out. This is a cop, who supposedly has our best interests at heart, and is supposed to not use the information for purposes outside of a investigation. Do you really think that a power company employee is going to as ethical?

I can easily see where a power company employee is in cahoots with the guy who breaks into your house. Don't know, but if a smart meter knows about various appliances, why not a security system as well?

I see all kinds of benefits to the power company to use these, but to the consumer, bend over and spread 'em baby.

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 01:43 PM
Well I suppose that if you don't like the "problems" associated with smart meters I guess you can always show 'em and disconnect your house/shop from the electrical supply if you want to and if you can.

I am sure that in the event that that happens that you will be happy to incur the capital and recurring costs of running your own power source and supply.

People will know if you are home or not - or had a good idea - if your generator is running or not.

If you have your own generator you will soon be aware of the problems associated with managing supply and demand as well as the associated costs and risks.

The Artful Bodger
01-11-2012, 02:00 PM
On the other hand...... you could set up a battery and inverter to run your house. Get enough batteries to run your house and shop throughout the peak hours and only charge your batteries during the period of the lowest rate. This will stop them collecting any data!:)

aboard_epsilon
01-11-2012, 02:20 PM
well Evan ..if i lived in the sticks like you

there is no doubt about it ..i would have one of these.

I'm serious ..i would definitely have one .

run it on old engine oil ...there isn't a shortage of that ..keep it secret ..no one will know ....bit of sound insulation, extra exhaust silencers ....run the exhaust up your house chimney...


almost free heating and power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YArccvSb9s8

all the best.markj

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 02:42 PM
On the other hand...... you could set up a battery and inverter to run your house. Get enough batteries to run your house and shop throughout the peak hours and only charge your batteries during the period of the lowest rate. This will stop them collecting any data!:)


And an indicative capital and running/recurring cost is ................ ???

The Artful Bodger
01-11-2012, 02:50 PM
And an indicative capital and running/recurring cost is ................ ???


Who cares? You might pay the price to stop 'them' knowing what TV programmes you watch.;)

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 02:58 PM
I have a Honda portable generator that only weighs 20Kg (~44 pounds).

http://powerequipment.honda.com.au/Super_Quiet/EU20i

In the event that power goes off I connect it to our refrigerators as well as the gas-fired space-heating small fans. I use it for electrical tools where it it more than my 50 or 30 metre heavy duty extension leads can reach to.

If working away from the house or shed/shop I just put the generator on my ride-on mower, start the generator, connect/plug in the tools and away we go.

In the case of a power failure we use LPG lamps for lighting. Our hot water and cooking as well as space-heating are all natural gas fired.

A power outage is more an annoyance or inconvenience than it is a problem.

Our space cooling is evaporative cooling which only requires power to a 1/2 HP motor as the cooling medium is tap water.

But full normal reticulated power with or without an intelligent smart electrical supply meter is very much our preferred way to go.

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie

And an indicative capital and running/recurring cost is ................ ???


Who cares? You might pay the price to stop 'them' knowing what TV programmes you watch.;)

I'm not paranoid in that regard and I'd rather keep the capital costs and take my chances.

oldtiffie
01-11-2012, 03:24 PM
On the other hand...... you could set up a battery and inverter to run your house. Get enough batteries to run your house and shop throughout the peak hours and only charge your batteries during the period of the lowest rate. This will stop them collecting any data!:)

Yeah - right.

We only watch 1>3 hours of TV a day.

If I was as concerned as some about "big brother" and "invasion of privacy" etc. as regards what we watch on TV, I guess I could run the TV on the generator and leave the rest of the power to be supplied via the existing or pending smart meter.

Like blo*dy hell I would.

It all stays as is here with the generator in the shed.

Arcane
01-11-2012, 04:51 PM
........... Do you really think that a power company employee is going to as ethical?

I can easily see where a power company employee is in cahoots with the guy who breaks into your house.
As a former power company employee I can guarantee you that power company employees are every bit as ethical as the police and from personal experience I believe they are more ethical. Saying that you "can easily see where a power company employee is in cahoots with the guy who breaks into your house" is just plain stupid and doesn't warrant additional comment.

jugs
01-11-2012, 05:30 PM
I can guarantee you that power company employees are every bit as ethical as the police .

http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Surprise/surprised-005.gif Thats no recommendation then

Black_Moons
01-11-2012, 06:19 PM
As a former power company employee I can guarantee you that power company employees are every bit as ethical as the police and from personal experience I believe they are more ethical. Saying that you "can easily see where a power company employee is in cahoots with the guy who breaks into your house" is just plain stupid and doesn't warrant additional comment.

So I should'nt let you into my house without a warrent under any conditions, and be very worryed when your snooping around. Gotcha.

Protip: Police already have been 'arrested' in the past for 'being in cahoots' with much worse then people who break into houses (See: Mob, Drug trafficers, etc), That is of course assuming its not a cop who is breaking into your house and stealing your stuff.

http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=cop+arrested+for+theft Cop arrested for theft = About 8,910,000 results
If we add quotes to the search "Cop arrested for theft" , we still get About 25,600 results

Heres one:
'The following report confirms that an off-duty Fullerton police officer was arrested for stealing an Apple iPad at a Miami International Airport TSA checkpoint last month.'
http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/fullerton-cop-arrested-for-stealing-ipad-at-tsa-checkpoint/
Yes, a cop caught stealing stuff from a security checkpoint with cameras all around.
http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/local/article/509052
Cop charged with selling drugs *on duty*, break and enter, And is also facing impaired driving charges.

Now how safe do you feel letting someone who makes min wage like a power company employee (Or 3rd party 'partner') letting you know when your home or not? And how many expensive appliances you own? What size your TV is perchance?

So no, I don't trust the police, I don't trust the power company (I found one meter reader snooping around my place just last month where they had no business going while reading the meter, power lines are clear to see and above ground, And then they went over to the neighbors and went all the way around his house.. Dispite the fact the power cables clearly come from the road to the front of his house and he has no business to be in the back yard, or go the LONG way around the house)

Infact, I don't trust anyone who wants to declare how I get to live, without giving me any say in the matter.

Evan
01-11-2012, 09:01 PM
The possibility for invasion of privacy via smart meters is far greater than Internet snooping or any other method. What makes it so is the immediacy of the information. The ability to tie it directly to the clock reveals much more than is at first apparent. Nearly everything we do inside our homes is in some way related to our use of energy. Unless you live on a tropical island where the temperature changes very little and cook on a wood fire etc you use electricity.

As BM wrote, the information that can be gained is valuable. There are many people that would like to know about your daily habits including when you leave for work and return. The number of people living in your household, your preference for microwave food, and numerous other details that can be enumerated are highly saleable.

Even less desirable is the rise of "drive by hacking" that will come soon after the widespread implementation of smart meters. Home invasions will be made much easier when only your children are home alone. "Protected by Smith and Wesson" won't mean a thing. Anything that can provide an extra bit of assurance as to what is going on inside your home will be seized on by professional thieves and B&E specialists.

The ability to turn off your power entirely will be even handier for the criminal element than it will be for the power company. There is a golden rule in the security business and it has been proven time and again. If someone has physical access to a secured device the security can and will be defeated.

Hackers will be the first to have this ability but it will rapidly develop into an underground economy. Anybody with the cash will be able to buy a pocket gadget that will be able to switch off your power.

That isn't all but it is the most likely first application for the criminal element, coming soon to a home near you. Very near.

darryl
01-11-2012, 09:05 PM
If you could graph the level of freedoms which we exercise daily, you would probably find that we're on the knee right now. Our personal freedoms are just at the point where they are going to more or less suddenly become eliminated. I don't think there has ever been a point in time where this situation has been as poignant as it is now.

It used to be that if someone was going to rob you, they would be there right in your face. Then the robbery lost a face- uber rich consortiums exerted power over government and forced a costly situation upon the general public, to the profit of these companies. We've been paying for this for decades now, and it has never gotten any better- except for those who have perpetrated this money-drain upon us.

Now, you can be robbed electronically at somebodies whim- you don't get a notice in the mail of a price increase, a higher fee, or an increase in taxes (well you do get all of that as well) - what you do get is a bill for something that you don't owe, and often there's bugger all you can do about it. If there's a corporation that you could complain to, they just hide behind the computer. It's pretty much at the point now where it's like walking out in front of a firing squad. When and if you can avail yourself of a legal recourse, you're paying for that big time usually, so you lose anyway. You're the little guy- never before has this been more true.

The usual outcomes? Massive poverty, year upon year of hardship, loss of homes, properties, hard-earned goods. Vigilantiism, barbarism- life as you know it down the drain, replaced with fighting for basic survival- nothing unusual, it's just history repeating itself. When and where and how should we be taking a stand, or just grin and bear it? I can't believe anyone would say we should just accept it.

jugs
01-12-2012, 04:37 AM
The ability to turn off your power entirely will be even handier for the criminal element than it will be for the power company. There is a golden rule in the security business and it has been proven time and again. If someone has physical access to a secured device the security can and will be defeated.

Hackers will be the first to have this ability but it will rapidly develop into an underground economy. Anybody with the cash will be able to buy a pocket gadget that will be able to switch off your power.

That isn't all but it is the most likely first application for the criminal element, coming soon to a home near you. Very near.

A friend suffers from tinnitus therefore excess background noise is a problem, so he got one of these http://www.tvbgone.com/cfe_tvbg_main.php
he also has a similar devise to block all mobile phones in a 50m/yd radius, (great on a train when people insist on using phones in the quiet carriage, some end up pulling the phones apart in frustration :D ) both are the size of a key fob.
The technology exists, just needs manipulating, someone probably has done it already :mad:

blowlamp
01-12-2012, 05:25 AM
Can you post a link to the mobile phone zapper?


Martin.

oldtiffie
01-12-2012, 05:32 AM
Try this for a start:

http://www.google.com.au/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&source=hp&q=mobile+phone+jammer+suppliers&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&pbx=1&oq=mobile+phone+ja&aq=3&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=0l0l2l1217l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=f87e263762c49db9&biw=1280&bih=542

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_jammer

hardtail
01-12-2012, 11:22 AM
If you could graph the level of freedoms which we exercise daily, you would probably find that we're on the knee right now. Our personal freedoms are just at the point where they are going to more or less suddenly become eliminated. I don't think there has ever been a point in time where this situation has been as poignant as it is now.

It used to be that if someone was going to rob you, they would be there right in your face. Then the robbery lost a face- uber rich consortiums exerted power over government and forced a costly situation upon the general public, to the profit of these companies. We've been paying for this for decades now, and it has never gotten any better- except for those who have perpetrated this money-drain upon us.

Now, you can be robbed electronically at somebodies whim- you don't get a notice in the mail of a price increase, a higher fee, or an increase in taxes (well you do get all of that as well) - what you do get is a bill for something that you don't owe, and often there's bugger all you can do about it. If there's a corporation that you could complain to, they just hide behind the computer. It's pretty much at the point now where it's like walking out in front of a firing squad. When and if you can avail yourself of a legal recourse, you're paying for that big time usually, so you lose anyway. You're the little guy- never before has this been more true.

The usual outcomes? Massive poverty, year upon year of hardship, loss of homes, properties, hard-earned goods. Vigilantiism, barbarism- life as you know it down the drain, replaced with fighting for basic survival- nothing unusual, it's just history repeating itself. When and where and how should we be taking a stand, or just grin and bear it? I can't believe anyone would say we should just accept it.

Was hoping to start out the New Year on a lighter note but heres some more enlightening observations.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTrlCjscMN8

Google fema after that........

Evan
01-12-2012, 11:41 AM
The technology exists, just needs manipulating, someone probably has done it already

At the recent hacker convention in Los Vegas (DEF CON) a participant demonstrated how he had hacked the OnStar system and others. By keying in a code on his smart phone he was able to unlock many of the cars in the parking lot and even better he then started them.


An American security consultant claims he can unlock thousands of cars simply by sending a text message.

Don Bailey, a senior consultant with iSEC Partners, gave a demonstration of his hacking ability at the Black Hat security and hacking conference in Las Vegas.

For security reasons, Bailey refused to reveal the makes and models of cars which are susceptible to his hack.

But he warned that the same hacking trick can be used to attack phones, cash machines and even industrial systems such as water and power supplies.

'I could care less if I could unlock a car door,' Bailey told CNN during the conference at Caesar's Palace.
'It's cool. It's sexy. But the same system is used to control phone, power, traffic systems. I think that's the real threat.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2022296/Security-expert-claims-unlock-thousands-cars-simply-sending-text-message.html


Don Bailey and Mathew Solnik, Two hackers have found a way to unlock cars that use remote control and telemetry systems like BMW Assist, GM OnStar, Ford Sync, and Hyundai Blue Link. These systems communicate with the automaker’s remote servers via standard standard mobile networks like GSM and CDMA — and with a clever bit of reverse engineering, the hackers were able to pose as these servers and communicate directly with a car’s on-board computer via “war texting” — a riff on “war driving,” the act of finding open wireless networks.
http://thehackernews.com/2011/07/war-texting-hackers-unlock-car-doors.html

This wasn't especially difficult either. It isn't like he sweated over the problem for months. The two managed the entire hack in about two hours while at the conference. There is no essential difference to hacking a smart meter.

Even worse is this item:


It's not the first time that security researchers have played around at controlling cars remotely. In May last year, a team from the University of Washington exploited a diagnostic computer system known as the Controller Area Network to operate cars' locks remotely and disable their brakes.

http://www.tgdaily.com/security-features/57688-hackers-unlock-car-via-text


Feel safer now? Are smart meters really a good idea?

Evan
01-12-2012, 11:47 AM
Can you post a link to the mobile phone zapper?

You can buy them from Deal Xtreme. They have a wide variety of models, all illegal to use in North America and the UK.

photomankc
01-12-2012, 02:28 PM
That story outlines exactly why I will never have OnStar either. Wireing a company into my car so they can remotely operate it or countermand my control of it never seemed like something I really was excited about having.

Black_Moons
01-12-2012, 06:29 PM
That story outlines exactly why I will never have OnStar either. Wireing a company into my car so they can remotely operate it or countermand my control of it never seemed like something I really was excited about having.

I vaugely like the idea of the one button contact.. the rest is kinda scary.

Of course, without a backup battery, I wonder if that onstar system will work after most crashs?

oldtiffie
01-12-2012, 06:59 PM
We have heard a lot from those who have heard a lot about smart meters but don't have one installed - me included I suppose.

I would think that there must be several here who have had them installed for several billing periods. I'd like to hear from several/some (not just one or two) about their first-hand experiences over several - or a lot of billings - of having a smart meter, either as the initial meter in the house or a replacement one.

There have been a lot of them installed in the state where I live in Australia with more to come progressively (soon) for a full state-wide installation.

There are associated increased costs (as I recall avout 5>10%) which was going to happen anyway.

There have been a few well-published "glitches" in the more sensational press/media some but not all of which were beat-ups. But overall it seems to be OK.

I am quite looking forward to ours to see what the outcome and options are and how we must or can adjust to those supply and costs items - ie tarrifs etc.

Hence why I am looking for some reprts from some who are having or have had first-hand experience of smart meters.

SteveF
01-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Even worse is this item:

http://www.tgdaily.com/security-features/57688-hackers-unlock-car-via-text

Re: Disabling the brakes



http://gmelectronics365.com/news/carshark-software-lets-you-hack-into-control-and-kill-any-car/

The researchers connected to the car via a simple OBD-II computer port and using the CarShark program, identified the packets of information being trafficked across the CAN. For some hacks they used a process called “fuzzing” and sent random bits of code to disrupt them. This caused horns to blow, trunks to pop and even the brakes to stop functioning. There’s supposed to be a failsafe override for the brakes, but jamming the ABS solenoids could lock up the brakes so they’re not usable.


I'm usually a pretty mellow sort, but if someone wearing a mask is trying to connect his PC into the OBD port of my car, it is highly unlikely that he will survive the experience.

Steve

oldtiffie
01-12-2012, 07:35 PM
Here are a couple of searches from state-wide (Victoria) media:

ABC News (aka Australian Broadcasting Commission) - state and national:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/search/?query=smart+meters&x=58&y=13

News Limited:
http://search.news.com.au/search?us=ndmnews&as=NEWS&q=power+meters

I hope it helps.

Black_Moons
01-12-2012, 07:37 PM
Speak of the devil, they just sent me a letter saying they plan to install mine. I just wrote up a sign and put it by the meter, Will call them tomarrow.

I do some RF work and I have already had problems with devices not even designed to emit RF causing interferance in the results while testing aspects of the network, I don't need one I can't turn off. Not to mention the whole privacy issue, And the fact they are only gonna stick me with the bill for the meter, Id rather keep someone local employed to read my meter then pay chinese to make easily hackable smart meters.

Black_Moons
01-12-2012, 07:44 PM
http://gmelectronics365.com/news/carshark-software-lets-you-hack-into-control-and-kill-any-car/

[I]The researchers connected to the car via a simple OBD-II computer port...

I'm usually a pretty mellow sort, but if someone wearing a mask is trying to connect his PC into the OBD port of my car, it is highly unlikely that he will survive the experience.

Steve

Problem is that cars with remote pressure tire sensors, Have the tire sensors interface with the local CAN network of the car... Wirelessly. Without security in most cases AFAIK. Feature creep and poor security pratices have turned what used to require physical access to the car, into something that requires just being near the car. Jaming up the CAN network with fake packets alone can seriously degrade a cars functionality, without even getting into spoofing that would require knowing what model the car is (Or just clicking "Screw with cars.exe" that blindly sends 10,000 control packets shaped for mucking with 1,000 makes and models of cars, Once one person figures it out and leaks it online anyway, Its not like any of these CAN networks have any kind of ignore node mode to prevent brute force attacks)

oldtiffie
01-12-2012, 08:32 PM
Perhaps in retrospect I should have done this earlier, but here is a Google search on problems with smart meters in the State of Victoria where I live in Australia and while it might be generally applicable (and it may not in some other places) it is very relevant to me with the smart meters which we are to have installed "shortly".

http://www.google.com.au/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&source=hp&q=smart+meter+problems&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&pbx=1&oq=smart+meter&aq=2&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=0l0l1l2338l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=f87e263762c49db9&biw=1280&bih=542

Evan
01-13-2012, 12:00 AM
One approach that is in the courts here now is arguing that smart meters violate wiretapping laws. Anything that can transmit information about what is going on inside your house requires a warrant. That should be interesting. The power company may be making a very expensive mistake. They don't have all of the government onside with them, especially not the CRTC which is the equivalent of the FCC. The CRTC is pretty POed because they are circumventing paying licenses by using an unlicensed band in a manner for which it was not intended. More important, it has the effect of driving all other users off the band. That means everything from baby monitors to remote controls.

But, what really is the biggest issue is the attitude of the power company. "We are going to do this, We are going to do it this way, You have no choice, We did not feel like consulting you and there is no opt out provision, period". Then they proceed to feed us lies and BS that are so transparent it is pathetic.

The Artful Bodger
01-13-2012, 12:03 AM
. The CRTC is pretty POed because they are circumventing paying licenses by using an unlicensed band in a manner for which it was not intended. .

Are they protected users or are they in the group that must not cause interference to other band users and must accept interfence caused by any other band users?

Evan
01-13-2012, 12:11 AM
They have no protection at all. They must accept all interference and they may not cause any. That is also going to be very interesting because it is an amateur radio allocation. I can get my license and swamp the signals in the entire valley with a simple little amateur TV station. As a licensed user (me) they would have zero recourse.

The Artful Bodger
01-13-2012, 12:35 AM
They have no protection at all. They must accept all interference and they may not cause any. That is also going to be very interesting because it is an amateur radio allocation. I can get my license and swamp the signals in the entire valley with a simple little amateur TV station. As a licensed user (me) they would have zero recourse.


Build yourself a DX beacon and leave it going H24 until I send you a signal report, it might take a while on that band!!:D

hardtail
01-13-2012, 10:41 AM
We have heard a lot from those who have heard a lot about smart meters but don't have one installed - me included I suppose.

I would think that there must be several here who have had them installed for several billing periods. I'd like to hear from several/some (not just one or two) about their first-hand experiences over several - or a lot of billings - of having a smart meter, either as the initial meter in the house or a replacement one.

There have been a lot of them installed in the state where I live in Australia with more to come progressively (soon) for a full state-wide installation.

There are associated increased costs (as I recall avout 5>10%) which was going to happen anyway.

There have been a few well-published "glitches" in the more sensational press/media some but not all of which were beat-ups. But overall it seems to be OK.

I am quite looking forward to ours to see what the outcome and options are and how we must or can adjust to those supply and costs items - ie tarrifs etc.

Hence why I am looking for some reprts from some who are having or have had first-hand experience of smart meters.

I have had one installed now for about a year, the employees that used to read the meter where trained to install the new ones and once that job is done they are out of work.......

I haven't had any problems with the meter itself yet but they supposedly aren't going to use the TOU feature until 2017........for now it's just gathering information.

flathead4
01-13-2012, 12:13 PM
Do today's smart meters have a feature that allows the electric company to turn off/on power to your house/business remotely?

Tom

Gunney
01-13-2012, 01:27 PM
Here is an article pertinent to this discussion. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the article, but it concerns me enough that I plan to do a little research on the topic. Here is the pertinent excerpt:

"With Cap and Trade, the Environmental Protection Agency will have power to force many homeowners to virtually rebuild their homes to meet stringent environmental requirements before they can sell them. Living in a house that does not meet the EPA's "green" regulations for roofing, windows, doors, insulation or heating and cooling systems will be slapped with fines. Electrical companies are rapidly installing "smart monitoring systems" to track usage of energy by residents."

The full article can be found at this link:
http://www.freedomadvocates.org/articles/sustainable_development/obama_and_the_un%3a_agenda_21_revisited_2011090745 1/

oldtiffie
01-13-2012, 05:23 PM
I have had one installed now for about a year, the employees that used to read the meter where trained to install the new ones and once that job is done they are out of work.......

I haven't had any problems with the meter itself yet but they supposedly aren't going to use the TOU feature until 2017........for now it's just gathering information.

Thanks hardtail.

That seems to be how it is here too, but I will just have to wait and see how it affects me and what changes I will need to or can make to our power useage at set times of the day and when and if they take effect.

By and large it seems to be settling down pretty well here despite the effort of some who are against it and have a knack of getting their views well publicised.

Evan
01-13-2012, 05:42 PM
Build yourself a DX beacon and leave it going H24 until I send you a signal report, it might take a while on that band!!

I am not a licensed amateur operator. I have 2nd class air, sea and land operator certifications that are valid for life. They don't call them that any more but the main problem is that they don't give me a station license. For that I need an amateur certificate. That would be trivial to get. Even though I know code it isn't required for that band.

added: The band is 902 to 928 and they are using frequency hopping. It isn't spread spectrum though. The meter tries an entire packet on one channel and if it doesn't get through then it moves to another channel and tries again. To block that I need something with a wide bandwidth signal. TV is just the ticket for that. It doesn't matter that nobody is receiving, I am experimenting as is my right. Also, I could put up a few nice little solar powered cameras in out of the way locations in trees on Crown Land around the valley to keep an eye on wildlife. I'm serious and if they can put a transmitter on my property without my permission I can certainly put one on public lands. It's something I have a thought of doing for a long time. It would be especially interesting to monitor an eagle nest.




Do today's smart meters have a feature that allows the electric company to turn off/on power to your house/business remotely?

Yes.


By and large it seems to be settling down pretty well here despite the effort of some who are against it and have a knack of getting their views well publicised.

Wait 'til time of use billing kicks in, never mind any illegal possibilities.

The Artful Bodger
01-13-2012, 06:51 PM
Wait 'til time of use billing kicks in, never mind any illegal possibilities.


Then it will be time for your off peak energy storage system to kick in.:)

That could be batteries and inverter but the capital cost would be high.

If you lived in a temperate climate (which I know you dont) your greatest use of electricity would likely be for heating water and maybe heating your house. People in that situation could install really large water heating cylinders and heat the water with off peak power only and arrange things so that heat leakage from the cylinder would be put to good use, for example drying clothes.

Black_Moons
01-13-2012, 06:59 PM
Then it will be time for your off peak energy storage system to kick in.:)

That could be batteries and inverter but the capital cost would be high.

If you lived in a temperate climate (which I know you dont) your greatest use of electricity would likely be for heating water and maybe heating your house. People in that situation could install really large water heating cylinders and heat the water with off peak power only and arrange things so that heat leakage from the cylinder would be put to good use, for example drying clothes.

With how much energy lost in storage? With how much energy needed to make a tank that big? I thought smart meters where supposed to 'save' energy.

Btw, the reason for 'time of use billing' in bc is not because they need to 'level the grid to avoid making more power plants'

No, its even worse then that. Canada load balances the US grid by selling power during the day (peak) and buying it cheaply at night (off peak, cheaper)

BC hydro wants us to balance our power better just so they can sell more to the USA and buy more at night.

But of course, we'll see this incress in profits reflected by lower rates to the owners/consumers!... right?.... Right?!?! *room goes silent* Dang, Guess not.

The Artful Bodger
01-13-2012, 07:11 PM
With how much energy lost in storage? With how much energy needed to make a tank that big? I thought smart meters where supposed to 'save' energy.



As I said, the heat leakage from the hot water storage tank is to be put to use and the example I gave was drying clothes which would save a lot if you otherwise use an electric clothes dryer.

You only need to make the bigger tank once.

Smart meters may save energy overall but we should be looking from an individual's point of view. We want to buy our energy as cheaply as possible and we want to use it as efficiently as practical.

oldtiffie
01-13-2012, 07:39 PM
Do today's smart meters have a feature that allows the electric company to turn off/on power to your house/business remotely?

Tom

Tom,

so far as I am aware they do have that capacity to limit/reduce and disconnect your power depending upon system capacity to meet demand in unforseen or peak period loadings as well as according to how you comply with the terms of the tarrif/s you are given or elect to have and perhaps more importantly whether you are remiss in paying your account.

So far as I am aware those features while built in are not to be used yet until a time yet to be advised.

I think it will be too much more expensive than it currently is but I think we can live with it as we don't see using the laundry or dishwasher and the shop in the middle of the night (aka "silent hours") in the low demand period as something we will be doing.

Heating and cooling are not an electrical problem here as our heating (space and hot water and cooking etc. are all natural gas which is quite effective and not expensive). Cooling is by centralised evaporative (water) cooling which is quite effective as the only electricity it uses is for a 1/2 HP air circulating fan.

We are in a temperate zone here and the weather fluctuations are quite mild.

My shop has all single-phase motors for lathe, mills, grinders etc. and are within a 1/2>1 1/2HP range. My MIG welder at full power draws 35 amps off our single-phase supply but I don't use it too often and then only at 30>60% power. We have 2-phase which is used for dual single phase and is quite well balanced. The compressor draws a bit but I will replace it with an engine-driven unit.

So I am not too worried about future electrical power regimes and tarrifs etc.

We rarely use out dishwasher as we fully hand-wash after every meal.

Evan
01-13-2012, 07:49 PM
Smart meters may save energy overall but we should be looking from an individual's point of view.

Ontario Hydro has had smart meters for a couple of years now and the power company cannot point to any savings or efficiencies. Power bills have gone up even for people that are dutifully running their clothes dryer at midnight.

Ontario hydro’s smart meters give dumb results: critics

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario/ontario-hydros-smart-meters-give-dumb-results-critics/article1707808/

Amateur radio operators are also having problems. A very complete writeup here:

http://www.ve3ncq.ca/wordpress/?page_id=10

One very interesting point is that the certification for any unit to operate on the 902-928 mhz ISM band stipulates that for every transmitter there must also be a matching receiver for units that use frequency hopping. The power company is in clear violation of that rule.

It isn't over yet.

sasquatch
01-13-2012, 07:50 PM
Reading through this topic has been an interesting and somewhat confusing study.

The only info i can post on this topic is that about 5 months ago they installed our smartmeter, (no one asked permission,) it was just there one day we came back home.

During the past 5 months it has been in use there is no increase in the power bill at all,, if anything it appears to have dropped by a little bit.

Evan
01-13-2012, 07:53 PM
So I am not too worried about future electrical power regimes and tarrifs etc.

Businesses are already on "Demand Metering" and have been for many years, at least here. That means they pay a tariff that is based on the maximum current draw at any time during the billing period. It won't be at all surprising to see that extended to home users now that the capability will exist. Your welder could turn out to be very expensive to operate.

aboard_epsilon
01-13-2012, 08:08 PM
The idea of a smart meter is to inform the consumer what power they are using ..in real time

and they will switch things off ..garanteed

That is what the governments want ..they want people to use less ..to produce less co2 and stop global warming ..(which i don't believe in )

The power companies ..will just keep putting prices up ..even if the whole nation saves 25 percent ..they will sneak the price up by that much...because the share holders want perpetualatliy...so we will not see any savings ....no one will, only the share holders and the fat cats will win ..

The EUROPEAN AND USA share prices were beginning to stop growing....
it could not go on indefinitely ..so they invented a whole new industry called "global warming" ...when people became sceptical ..they changed this to "climate change" ,so now they have new growth...and more perpetuallity.....for a long time to come.




all the best.....markj

""

Arcane
01-13-2012, 08:09 PM
Do today's smart meters have a feature that allows the electric company to turn off/on power to your house/business remotely?

Tom
That's actually one of the very few reasons a smart meter would be useful and justified. They'd be great at premises with a high turnover rate like renters and welfare recipients typically have. If the consumption and power could be remotely read and turned on and off at these premises it would eliminate a trip by field personnel with considerable resultant savings. Depending on the utilities policies for new connects, someone can make multiple trips a day to the same address.

Black_Moons
01-13-2012, 08:14 PM
The power companies ..will just keep putting prices up ..even if the whole nation saves 25 percent ..they will sneak the price up by that much...because the share holders want perpetualatliy...so we will not see any savings ....no one will, only the share holders and the fat cats will win ..


all the best.....markj

""

BC citizens ARE the share holders of BC hydro.
We won't see a bloody dime. It will go to the CEO's and friends (And 3rd party contractors), They do what they want without even thinking about what the Customers Slash OWNERS want.

Arcane
01-13-2012, 08:27 PM
Businesses are already on "Demand Metering" and have been for many years, at least here. That means they pay a tariff that is based on the maximum current draw at any time during the billing period. It won't be at all surprising to see that extended to home users now that the capability will exist. Your welder could turn out to be very expensive to operate.
Here it's 48 Kva that's the magic number...anything over that is in demand charge territory. I don't think a residential demand charge would be in the works, demand is demand regardless of who is creating it and I think it would be hard to justify a two tier demand charge. A Time of Day charge certainly wouldn't surprise me though.

I believe that the idea that loads will be reduced if people start getting time of day charges is bogus. Here, peak loads are typically from 11:30 to 12:00 (mornings) and from 5:30 tp 6:00 (evenings). I don't think people will quit preparing dinners for noon time, for many it's impossible, and people tend to arrive home from 5:30 to 6:00 so that's when the home come "alive" electrically speaking. That aint gonna change either.

I believe Smart meters are a device intended to introduce a rate increase as another charge.

Black_Moons
01-13-2012, 08:37 PM
Welp, I called and they said there is no 'opt out' program, Bull!

Got through to someone who allowed me to at least 'defer my installation' (Hopefuly untill AFTER the lawsuits against BC hydro)

I told them my reasons where violation of wiretaping laws, Insecurity of information, because even credit card companys get hacked these days, And interferance with radio freqency equipment.

When I said wiretaping laws, they said 'The information we collect is the same we collect now!' 'No, its not, its a diffrence in resolution, from every 2 months to every 2 seconds' 'Well I don't want to get into an arguement with you over the phone'

Aka: thier operators have been told to say NOTHING of legal consequence.

On a subnote: I live in a city that already is under a class action lawsuit because of the city basicly raiding peoples houses, slaping them with $5000 fines because of one inspectors 'opinion' with no way to appeal the fine, including getting your house condemed untill the fine is paid (and additional inspections are made)

Said inspections where done with police presence and with owners of houses kicked out of thier own homes during the process, with the inspectors going through drawers, closest, etc.

So what caused these 'inspections'?
The power company was giving away everyones POWER RECORDS, without warrent, to the city (And hence to police)

How would you like to be fined $5000 and kicked outta your own house (And have the information that its a 'controled substance property' forwarded onto your bank/morgage lender), Just because your power meter recorded the wrong usage pattren, and then some inspector comes along and goes through everything your own (maybe stealing whatever he wants), Finds absolutely nothing, Yet still fines you just because he can and because you can't take him to coart, And because unless he fines 50% of houses he inspects the program gets shut down because its 'self funded' (How less then 1 hour of inspection costs $2500 is behond me!)

They fined one guy because they found him growing cucumbers. Another because he had 'traces of soil in his garage' (Yaknow, that dirt stuff that you find outside and at garden stores and you don't even need ID to buy because its LEGAL TO HAVE DIRT)

Another was fined just because of 'poor wiring' to his hottub. (Also why he had high consumption, He owned a hot tub)

Over 50% of the 'inspections' that where fined, where not followed up by police action, Meaning there was no legal evidence found that would hold up on coart, yet they still where fined.

Now if you'll excuse me, Apparently I have to make some big ass bars to put over the meter and then strip the heads of the screws on.

PS: BC hydro already has a 2 tier rate with its existing dumb meters. Below 22kw/h day (thats the equivilent usage of 910 watts continiously) its 6.67cents kw/h, above its 9.62cents kw/h, (Usage is actualy per 2 months as measured, but thats what it comes out to per day)

aboard_epsilon
01-13-2012, 09:09 PM
Welp, I called and they said there is no 'opt out' program, Bull!

Got through to someone who allowed me to at least 'defer my installation' (Hopefuly untill AFTER the lawsuits against BC hydro)

I told them my reasons where violation of wiretaping laws, Insecurity of information, because even credit card companys get hacked these days, And interferance with radio freqency equipment.

When I said wiretaping laws, they said 'The information we collect is the same we collect now!' 'No, its not, its a diffrence in resolution, from every 2 months to every 2 seconds' 'Well I don't want to get into an arguement with you over the phone'

Aka: thier operators have been told to say NOTHING of legal consequence.

On a subnote: I live in a city that already is under a class action lawsuit because of the city basicly raiding peoples houses, slaping them with $5000 fines because of one inspectors 'opinion' with no way to appeal the fine, including getting your house condemed untill the fine is paid (and additional inspections are made)

Said inspections where done with police presence and with owners of houses kicked out of thier own homes during the process, with the inspectors going through drawers, closest, etc.

So what caused these 'inspections'?
The power company was giving away everyones POWER RECORDS, without warrent, to the city (And hence to police)

How would you like to be fined $5000 and kicked outta your own house (And have the information that its a 'controled substance property' forwarded onto your bank/morgage lender), Just because your power meter recorded the wrong usage pattren, and then some inspector comes along and goes through everything your own (maybe stealing whatever he wants), Finds absolutely nothing, Yet still fines you just because he can and because you can't take him to coart, And because unless he fines 50% of houses he inspects the program gets shut down because its 'self funded' (How less then 1 hour of inspection costs $2500 is behond me!)

They fined one guy because they found him growing cucumbers. Another because he had 'traces of soil in his garage' (Yaknow, that dirt stuff that you find outside and at garden stores and you don't even need ID to buy because its LEGAL TO HAVE DIRT)

Another was fined just because of 'poor wiring' to his hottub. (Also why he had high consumption, He owned a hot tub)

Over 50% of the 'inspections' that where fined, where not followed up by police action, Meaning there was no legal evidence found that would hold up on coart, yet they still where fined.

Now if you'll excuse me, Apparently I have to make some big ass bars to put over the meter and then strip the heads of the screws on.

PS: BC hydro already has a 2 tier rate with its existing dumb meters. Below 22kw/h day (thats the equivilent usage of 910 watts continiously) its 6.67cents kw/h, above its 9.62cents kw/h, (Usage is actualy per 2 months as measured, but thats what it comes out to per day)

that stinks ..all of it does ..talk about a repressed nation ..ours usually follows what yours does ..

if it carries on it will bite them when the population rises up ..and starts a cival war

most of our tarrifs are two tier ...but the other way round .

all the best.markj

Black_Moons
01-13-2012, 09:14 PM
Ontario hydro’s smart meters give dumb results: critics

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario/ontario-hydros-smart-meters-give-dumb-results-critics/article1707808/

It isn't over yet.

'Ontario is the first province in Canada to introduce time-of-use pricing designed to encourage electricity consumers to reduce consumption and run appliances during periods of lower demand, when power tends to come from cheaper, cleaner sources'

Hahaha. Wrong. Power comes from cleaner sources during *peak* times. They don't turn the coal plants on/off to handle peak, they turn the hydro plants on/off ;)
Its only 'cheaper' at night because there is less demand and hence coal power can be bought cheaper then hydro power can be sold for during peak demand.


that stinks ..all of it does ..talk about a repressed nation ..ours usually follows what yours does .. (Edit: United Kindom?)
if it carries on it will bite them when the population rises up ..and starts a cival war
most of our tarrifs are two tier ...but the other way round .
all the best.markj

And we canadians get stuck with USA laws and other resource wasting projects.

danlb
01-13-2012, 11:34 PM
I find it interesting that the most vocal objections come from our Canadian friends. I would have thought the nuts and flakes here in California would be the ones complaining.

Two points:

1) There are MANY different smart meters, so just because one model can do something does not mean that the one YOU get will do that too. Mine does not have the power to turn things off. Yours might. Mine emits lower RF energy than the PC at my knee, or the 4 cordless or cell phones within reach.

2) I've had one about a year. I'm a heavy electricity user. I used 1 megawatt hours last month. That is 3 times the "baseline" allotment. This year I used 3% less than last year.

I once worked for the local power company (PG&E) and I can tell you that the average employee is more ethical than your average citizen. I had to pass a background check to get hired there. The corporate stance is that ethics are important. I was never allowed nor encouraged to do anything that might have a negative impact on the customers.

danlb
01-13-2012, 11:44 PM
Aka: thier operators have been told to say NOTHING of legal consequence.


Let me get this straight. You are expecting low paid clerks who handle billing to be able to make intelligent comments about company policy AND the technology? Do you also expect your bank teller to be able to advise you on gold mining techniques? :)



PS: BC hydro already has a 2 tier rate with its existing dumb meters. Below 22kw/h day (thats the equivilent usage of 910 watts continiously) its 6.67cents kw/h, above its 9.62cents kw/h, (Usage is actualy per 2 months as measured, but thats what it comes out to per day)


I feel for you. Really I do. But not too much. You are griping about paying less than 7 cents for each kw/h under 660 in a month. I pay more than 33 cents a hw/h for anything more than 700 kw/h in a month. The first 350kw/h are 12 cents.

So I feel for you, but you really have it pretty good.

Dan

darryl
01-14-2012, 01:21 AM
We have a radio on at work. Every time I hear a commercial talking about smart meters, the message is the same- it will allow us to detect power outages more quickly, and get it fixed sooner. Now what do they mean by that? They are already aware of outages pretty quickly when they happen, and if their equipment doesn't detect it, somebody is sure to call in without much delay. And fixing it- what changes are they going to make to get to the site of the problem faster- authorize speeding in their behemoth hydro trucks? What a croc-

They have pulled a fast one on us with these smart meters, knowing that if we actually realized what it would mean down the road, few if any of us would endorse it. The capabilities of these meters are solely and exclusively to the benefit of the power companies. There is not one function that is valuable in any way to the consumer. How often have you wished that your old meter could tell you more- ok, I'll answer for you- never.

Just the fact that the power companies have operated outside of the law on this issue, and with impunity, suggests that corruption is rampant, and our law enforcement systems are crippled. There is about as much chance of your 'rights' being protected as there is the chance that a goose will fall out of the sky and crush your left foot.

The power companies are not the only players, of course. Corruption is rampant, and when the exploit surfaces it's taken advantage of by those who swing the biggest hammers- it's that or lose your place amongst the corrupt, corporate 'elite'. The ones that survive are the best players in this game. These days we give them the fastest, the most efficient, the most invisible and impunent means of drubbing our heads that the world has ever seen. We're in deep kaka

Evan
01-14-2012, 01:22 AM
Here it's 48 Kva that's the magic number...anything over that is in demand charge territory. I don't think a residential demand charge would be in the works, demand is demand regardless of who is creating it and I think it would be hard to justify a two tier demand charge. A Time of Day charge certainly wouldn't surprise me though.

I see demand metering in the future. There is no reason at all they can't have different rate structures for home vs business. They already do. Think about electric cars with fast charge battery packs. They are coming soon and will use however much your power connection can deliver. 100 amps, no problem. There are electric vehicle batteries already available at the industrial level that can recharge in 3 minutes if enough power is available.

Evan
01-14-2012, 01:44 AM
They have pulled a fast one on us with these smart meters, knowing that if we actually realized what it would mean down the road, few if any of us would endorse it. The capabilities of these meters are solely and exclusively to the benefit of the power companies. There is not one function that is valuable in any way to the consumer. How often have you wished that your old meter could tell you more- ok, I'll answer for you- never.


More importantly, there isn't one single function that requires real time communication to implement the entire claimed strategy. The only communication the meters require is the ability to receive commands. There in no reason at all for them to transmit in order to implement any of the claimed advantages of the smart meter infrastructure.

Knowing when the power is out it total BS. They already know that the moment it happens. Alarms go off at the local substation when a circuit drops out. People tend to phone when a local transformer explodes.

So why do they want them to have transmitters? Just one single reason: To eliminate meter readers and save money at the cost of people's jobs. The Itron meters they are installing here have the capability to store a year's worth of data at 15 minute resolution.

All of the things that a smart meter can do directly line their pockets.

I earlier wrote that if you want to know what the utilities are after then just read the chip specs from a company like Texas Instruments.




Design Considerations

For AMR (and AMI) to become truly pervasive it needs to provide more than a reduction in meter reading costs. Optimization for Asset tracking, dynamic pricing, tamper notification, outage management, supply automation, load profiling and network diagnostics are critical elements for the success of this infrastructure. This drives the move from Mechanical Meters towards Static (electronic) meters for all major utilities (Electricity, Water, Gas, Heat).
. . .
In any case, the trend is towards AMR increases the electronics content of the meter itself, and AMI drives a networked infrastructure for all metering. A complete implementation could include power line communication to the electricity meter, and low power wireless communication from the electricity meter to other utility meters. Low power wireless communication to the major loads in the home/business (AC, Heaters, Refrigeration, etc) and would also allow dynamic setting control during power plant peak loading.

http://www.ti.com/solution/smart_e_meter_amr_ami

Weston Bye
01-14-2012, 08:07 AM
BC Hydro and I are having a discussion. I will allow them to install a smart meter but NOT a radio transmitter. They have no legal force of law that allows them to install a radio and they cannot make it a condition of service since that is the domain of the utilities commission. The utilities commission is provincial and cannot mandate transmitters since that is solely a federal responsibility and the federal law has no provision for requiring the installation of a transmitter on private property.

We shall see what happens.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/meter.jpg


When the weather warms up, the negotiating point moves to the fuse at the transformer on the pole. Can't change the meter? Pull the fuse.

Weston Bye
01-14-2012, 08:11 AM
The sign below the meter:

http://ixian.ca/pics9/warning.jpg

You might get more sympathy with medical life support equipment connected.

aboard_epsilon
01-14-2012, 08:18 AM
So why do they want them to have transmitters? Just one single reason: To eliminate meter readers and save money at the cost of people's jobs. The Itron meters they are installing here have the capability to store a year's worth of data at 15 minute resolution.




hmm ..at 11:42 pm on 1st of November 2013... Mr Evan you were not at home ..therefor you are guilty of murdering Mr john doe...sorry mr evan the smart meters are always right ..and you cant afford to defend yourself ..there for you will go to prison for the rest of your life .
nice future we have . :(

Arcane
01-14-2012, 08:25 AM
You're right Evan. I must have had a brain fart re the demand charges. I'll blame it on old timers disease...

I can understand why the electric utilities want to even out the load, they can run their generating stations more efficiently and thus more profitable. It would also allow them to run to the very limit of what the infrastructure can handle. When you have fluctuating load levels, you have to build to handle the highest loads, not the averages. With steady loads I can see them getting more years out of the system before it needs upgrading, but by then it will be massively expensive since it will all have to be done at once and in several locals the loads are already pushing the limits on the infrastructure. I believe that's when they will want equally massive rate increases to pay for what they should have been doing all along instead of diverting money into dividends that should have been put into upgrades. That's also when they might try to gain more in rate increases then what is needed since they will probably claim higher costs than necessary, at least that's what my paranoid inner voice is telling me. The other voices all agree too! :D

The railways did it here in Canada years ago, they stopped doing maintenance on many of the branch line railways, called it "Deferred Maintenance", then years later cried that it was too expensive to fix them and simply shut them down forcing the farmers to haul their grain considerable distances to inland terminals. Needless to say it was considerably cheaper for the RRs to run fewer miles of line and still haul the same tonnage from fewer sites.

Smart meters aren't being implemented for any of the customers needs or benefits, it's all for gaining profit.

oldtiffie
01-14-2012, 09:55 AM
OMG!!!!


SCREAM!!!!!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f4/The_Scream.jpg/475px-The_Scream.jpg

The sky is falling in!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Henny_penny.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny


Despite the real and imaginary fears of some, I am pretty sure we will live through having smart meters installed and will survive well enough.

aboard_epsilon
01-14-2012, 10:12 AM
OMG!!!!







SCREAM


Despite the real and imaginary fears of some, I am pretty sure we will live through having smart meters installed and will survive well enough.

well you would say that ...I wonder if you weren't 76, and YoungTiffie, if you'd say the same thing.

Black_Moons
01-14-2012, 10:28 AM
Lets see, Overall review of points in this thread:

1: Power companys are switching to smart meters, giving no 'opt out'
2: consumer 900 mhz tech will be illegally interfered with.
3: 900 mhz 'Primary users' (shipborne radar on maritime coastal waterways?) may be illegally interfered with as they are installing it in coastal citys and those next to rivers with shiping traffic, And in citys with lisenced 900mhz use such as railroads.
4: Smart meters may violate wire taping laws for transmiting private information about what is going on inside your house without a warrent.
5: Smart meters are likey insecure, Allowing hackers to alter your bill, read your bill, and maybe disconnect your power remotely.
6: Your second by second billing information will be on insecure servers where they have no financial incentive to prevent data theft, Either by hackers or employees. Realise that in todays world, people who DO have financial insentive (or just massive PR insentive) to secure *Credit card* data like sony DO still get hacked. What chance does billing information have?
7: Your second by second billing information may be sold to 3rd partys, And may be used as sole the reason for 'inspections' by police, As this has already happened in canada in the past. Said inspections may not need to find any legal evidence to levy HUGE fines and condem your house while marking it as a 'controled substance property' and puting 'Negative police contact' on your criminal record, Without any way to appeal the ruling.
8: You WILL be charged the full cost of the smart meter you did'nt ask for, in rate increases.
9: your smart meter contains the 'hazardous waste/heavy metal' known as mercury. (Tilt switch) Will the hydro company pay for hazmat cleanup if the meter is damaged in fire/earthquake/etc? Tilt switchs can be easily made without mercury btw.
10: They opted out of paying 3 cents a user for the LISENCED band designed just for smart meters around 1200mhz, instead are trying to use the *entire* 900mhz band, Illegaly, kicking all other users off it by virtue of filling it up with spectrum hoping noise.
11: They waste excessive bandwidth to skirt around FCC regulations on power limits for the 900mhz band, and don't have a legal 1:1 transmitter/reciver ratio for use of the 900mhz band the way they are using it, and end up using the ENTIRE 900mhz band, with no ability to set the meter on one channel to avoid interferance with any other 900mhz device.
12: There is no incentive to the user of the meter. "Time of use" billing can be done by mechanical movements, or by meters that only record your usage total for every *hour* as opposed to every *2 seconds*
13: Meter reader jobs will be lost, in times when its already hard enough to find a job.
14: It will transmit intermitantly all day long, every day, When technicaly it only needs to transmit once a month. It retransmits most packets 'just incase' and uses excessive bandwidth/transmission time for the task.
14: Billing information may be used to indentify when you are not home, How many diffrent major appliances you own, if you have a workshop with a large number of intermitant motor loads, if you have a welder, etc. As such it would be highly valuable to criminals who do break and enters, Most power companys already talk about putting it online and processing it to detect what kind of loads you own and when you are home or not. One companys record website has already been hacked.
15: IT ALREADY HAS BEEN HACKED

Note that nowhere in that list do I actualy whine about electricity itself costing more because its been doing that every year with regular meters anyway, Or worry about the health hazards RF causes me, other then high blood pressure when all my 900mhz stuff stops working!

Anyone else have any other points that should be added?

Weston Bye
01-14-2012, 10:52 AM
If they were really *out to get you* they could install the necessary monitoring equipment on the other end of your service cable at the pole without your knowledge. It would just take a little more effort. The meter is just a convenient plug-in method. And, if you are paranoid, an eye-level daily reminder that that *they are watching you*.
:D

Black_Moons
01-14-2012, 11:00 AM
If they were really *out to get you* they could install the necessary monitoring equipment on the other end of your service cable at the pole without your knowledge. It would just take a little more effort. The meter is just a convenient plug-in method. And, if you are paranoid, an eye-level daily reminder that that *they are watching you*.
:D

It would just take a little more effort, and a *reason* to do it.

This is the equivilent of them doing it to everyone, without a reason. With past history of handing over the consumption data to police without so much as a warrent, And past history of other similar meters being hacked and exposing the data to criminals.

The only one who does not benifit, is me, the consumer.

flathead4
01-14-2012, 11:43 AM
hmm ..at 11:42 pm on 1st of November 2013... Mr Evan you were not at home ..therefor you are guilty of murdering Mr john doe...sorry mr evan the smart meters are always right ..and you cant afford to defend yourself ..there for you will go to prison for the rest of your life .
nice future we have .

Fear mongering. I'm not buying it. If you're worried that you will wrongly go to jail for murder, based soley on information about your electical consumption, then you probably need another layer of tinfoil on your hat. I have two TVs and four computers in my house and you're telling me that you would be able to sort out the "electical fluctuations" and say what movie I'm viewing on each. I can't even imagine that you can tell the difference between me opening the refrigerator door or turning on a desk lamp.:rolleyes:


So why do they want them to have transmitters? Just one single reason: To eliminate meter readers and save money at the cost of people's jobs.

Not the "one single" reason, but it is one reason. Technology has been replacing human labor since the invention of the wheel. Even a regulated utility, who is only allowed so much profit, will try to cut costs. When they started installing smart meters in Virginia, there was no attempt to hide the fact that less meter readers would be needed. Most people don't mind employing their own labor-saving technology at home, but when their employer (or utility) does it, it's evil.

Tom

lakeside53
01-14-2012, 12:21 PM
+1... All so silly.

aboard_epsilon
01-14-2012, 12:24 PM
Fear mongering. I'm not buying it. If you're worried that you will wrongly go to jail for murder, based soley on information about your electical consumption, then you probably need another layer of tinfoil on your hat. I have two TVs and four computers in my house and you're telling me that you would be able to sort out the "electical fluctuations" and say what movie I'm viewing on each. I can't even imagine that you can tell the difference between me opening the refrigerator door or turning on a desk lamp.:rolleyes:



Not the "one single" reason, but it is one reason. Technology has been replacing human labor since the invention of the wheel. Even a regulated utility, who is only allowed so much profit, will try to cut costs. When they started installing smart meters in Virginia, there was no attempt to hide the fact that less meter readers would be needed. Most people don't mind employing their own labor-saving technology at home, but when their employer (or utility) does it, it's evil.

Tom

Well even if you don't go to jail ..its guilty until proving inocent..
the stress involved in defending yourself will taker years off your life

They are doing that all the more these days ..

about 2 years back they passed a law .

which ends up in this scenario ..and has ended up in similar scenarios for probably hundreds of Brits


the scenario

you receive a fine through the post for going past a speed camera ..you know you weren't there ..you can prove you weren't there.

you go to court.............you proove that you wernt there..........

new law says that your court costs will not be payed anymore even if you win in all "motoring cases"

therefor ..you might spoend £2000 provving your inocense.

many people now just pay the fine and take the points on their licence ..because of this

all the best.markj

danlb
01-14-2012, 12:52 PM
Lets see, Overall review of points in this thread:

< snip >

Anyone else have any other points that should be added?

Of the 15 points, most are over generalizations, guesses or assumptions. For example, does every smart meter ever made have a mercury tilt switch? Who knows. Who cares. Do any power companies allow opt-out? Yes, some do. Will you find that on the net? No, because people do not rant about things that they agree with. :)

It's much more reasonable to assume self interest and benign intents than it is to assume extreme greed and corruption. Look around you. 99% of the people are neither evil nor corrupt. The people working at the power company are made up of those ordinary people. Would you allow your boss to make you do something dastardly? Would your co-workers allow it? I don't think so.

Yes, the whole purpose of the smart meters is to reduce cost. That's no surprise. I'd rather not be paying to have people go to every single home and business in the country to read the meters. If you think a few milliwatts of RF are wasting energy, figure out what it costs to send a meter reader to Even's house once a month, rain or shine. Then add in the cost of all those company cars, pensions, etc. There are some jobs that really should be automated. No-one really wants to have ice delivered twice a week again, do they?

In my opinion, at some point load shedding may be a desirable thing to do. Someone made the point that load shedding would allow deferred construction and a resulting major (expensive implied) project to catch up. Since you don't really get to build half a dam, or half a nuclear plant, or half of distribution network, that really does not matter much. Some things are done in big chunks.

We have already had load shedding. I think oldtiffe mentioned that they do it too. It's called brownouts and rolling blackouts. Yep. I'm in rolling block B. When demand is too high they turn off a whole neighborhood to reduce load so that the whole infrastructure does not crash. I'd rather that my water heater was turned off for an hour instead of my whole neighborhood, you know?

The whole argument about which radio band is used and how it is used is immaterial. Each company choses the way they want to do it. An unlicensed band is there for everyone, and, by definition, it's not to be counted on. A licensed band is more expensive, and is a resource that might better be saved for things that really need reliable communications.

The only thing that upsets me about my smart meter is that the web site that is supposed to give me minute by minute readings is never working when I want. Not once. :(

Dan

flathead4
01-14-2012, 12:58 PM
..its guilty until proving inocent..


Yeah, even in this country that seems to be the case with traffic laws. It's more trouble and cost to fight a speeding ticket than to just pay the fine. One would think that it was that way by design.


They are doing that all the more these days ..

Unfortunately, you can't always control what They do. I try not to let Them rent space in my head.

Tom

The Artful Bodger
01-14-2012, 02:00 PM
Anyone else have any other points that should be added?

Yes, I cant help thinking that if it was being proposed that power company employee would have regular access to our back yards someone would be yelling about what they would be doing with their gun!:D

Black_Moons
01-14-2012, 02:06 PM
Yes, I cant help thinking that if it was being proposed that power company employee would have regular access to our back yards someone would be yelling about what they would be doing with their gun!:D

Id rather be able to catch him peeking in the window once every 2 months, Then have him watching 24/7, logging every second, and then putting it online for everyone to see.

Evan
01-14-2012, 02:34 PM
Justice Louis D. Brandeis:

The makers of our constitution undertook to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness... They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations. They conferred, as against the government, the right to be let alone – the most comprehensive of the rights and the right most valued by civilized men.





Fyodor Dostoyevsky: (re communism)

Every member of the society spies on the rest, and it is his duty to inform against them. All are slaves and equal in their slavery... The great thing about it is equality... Slaves are bound to be equal.


This quote is very particularly applicable to the matter under discussion.



Justice William O. Douglas:

Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.

Arcane
01-14-2012, 03:34 PM
In my opinion, at some point load shedding may be a desirable thing to do. Someone made the point that load shedding would allow deferred construction and a resulting major (expensive implied) project to catch up. Since you don't really get to build half a dam, or half a nuclear plant, or half of distribution network, that really does not matter much. Some things are done in big chunks.


That was a point I brought up but I didn't say anything about load shedding. I said even out the loads...there is a major difference between the two. No, you can't build half a dam or half a nuclear plant, but you can add on to an existing coal fired plant or NG powered plant or even build a single new plant. It's done all the time. As far as the electrical grid, well, I have no idea why you think it's not possible to upgrade it piece by piece. That is something that is also done all the time. New transmission lines are built, same with distribution lines. Some lines get an increase in conductor size. New substations are built. Evening out consumption until it's a flat line graph would mean you can leave all the infrastructure as is for a long time since it's built to handle the peak power consumption meaning it's overbuilt for the average power consumption.

Evan
01-14-2012, 04:24 PM
Evening out the load has little meaning when the supply is over 90% hydroelectric as it is here. Generators can be brought on line and off within minutes and there is no cost penalty to do so. In this province there are no excuses applicable to load management in that regard.

oldtiffie
01-14-2012, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie

OMG!!!!

SCREAM

Despite the real and imaginary fears of some, I am pretty sure we will live through having smart meters installed and will survive well enough.


well you would say that ...I wonder if you weren't 76, and YoungTiffie, if you'd say the same thing.

Well Mark,

I will be 75 this week - not 76.

My attitude would be the same in the same/current situation if I were 45, 55, 65, 75 or 85 and upward.

I don't see it as a major drama - well not yet anyway - nor do I see it becoming one.

If we were in a non-temperate climate and were "all electric" in the house and shop, I'd be more inclined to be concerned.

Some with large/r machines with large current draws in electrically heated/cooled large shops may have some head-scratching to do.

As I said previously, my shop machines are pretty well all/mostly bench-mounted with relatively small motors and current demands with the exception of the MIG welder which doesn't get a lot of use and can be used in the non-high demand periods and my compressor which I intend to replace with a larger engine-driven unit anyway. If its too hot or too cold in the shop I will soon find someting else to do - or perhaps go and have a nap!!! My shop only gets occassional use as I require so most stuff can wait another day or so if needs be.

But as I said previously, we are well catered for as regards weather and heating, cooling cooking etc, with electricity and natural gas etc.

So far as I am aware there are no plans to fit smart meters to the water or gas so we are not affected there yet in that regard although all utility services (with and without smart meters) are going to increase in what seems to be a more exponential way than in a straight line. But we shall see as we think we can handle that too well enough.

We can handle a 20% rise for the combined on-going cost of the meter and electricity useage.

If we can get by - which we can - I can't see that my worrying needlessly - which we won't - is going to improve things at all.

Roll on 76>85 (well to 80 anyway).

Others can carry on needlessly screaming and looking out for those falling bits of the sky.

oldtiffie
01-14-2012, 08:53 PM
I have left it thus far to address the perceived problems of and the reasons for high-frequency recording/sampling of the level of (in this case electricity) the utility used between successive readings over time.

The, and at least my, and presumably most other electricity, gas and water meters are pre smart meter installation only measured the amount of the utility used over time - ie between monthly/quarterly manual meter readings. It does not measure the rate at which the utillity is used say in terms or utility units per unit time (seconds, minutes) 24/7 over the billing period.

Maximum demand of/for a utility is the instantaneous sum of all demand rates (high, medium and low) over any given period at any given time.

The utility company measures these for the main reticulation system but it cannot identifiy individual user demands - hence the smart meters.

Needless to say, users of higher amounts and rates of use will pay more and if limits are set or tarrif amounts exceeded or payment is not made the "offenders" can idenetified within a couple of recording cycles and "dealt with" accordingly by having their usage rate/s "throttled" or "choked" or cut off.

All that it means is that domestic and small businesses will have a maximum demand tarrif via their smart meters such as larger businesses and industries had had for many years. Penalties that can be applied to commercial maximum demand tarrif excesses would make the eyes of a small business or domestic user water.

So, all in all, domestic users are not penalised too badly at all - it all depends on how you manage your utility use/demand.

My present electricity, NG, water and sewerage accounts are based on "steps/grades" etc where each successive step has a higher charger per unit of the utililty used. In other words, the more you use over a billing period the more and sooner you go into the higher tarriff. It has been that way for years.

All these meters are manually read and those that do not have smart meters installed will continue to be manually read.

If I can use my computer to see how our consumption is going I can modify my use to keep the rate of use down if needed be - ie use the washing machine at night (low demand/tarrif range) or see that I do not have more machines or loads that I need running concurrently.

For example, we use an electric jug for tea, coffee etc. but we can either use it less often with less water in it or just use the gas cooker top.

Same with the shop - use less machines/loads concurrently or shift them to low demand/tarrif periods - or use them and put up with the cost.

The use of high-frequency sampling/recording of a utility demand by the smart meter was pretty obvious to me from the start of this topic/thread. I am surprised that it was not recognised and/or remarked upon by some others who see it as a threat by "Big Business" - which I don't think it is.

If it can reduce the incidence and severity of selective "brown-outs" or shut-downs of the system that supplies us I will be very pleased - potential cost increases and all.

oldtiffie
01-14-2012, 10:26 PM
Perhaps I should address the point recording of the smart meter at say every 2 seconds interval 24/7.

The points if joined together would form a graph.

The area under the graph between any two points is the amount of the utility used in that period. The slope of the graph is the rate of the utility used in utility units per 2 second (or more) period and is the demand rate for that period.

The 2 second period should be adequate to record the "spikes" due to high current draw during start-up or high torque/load requirements for heavy cuts etc. so some prudent use of shop loads would be a good idea. It may well make some of the perhaps unnecessary large machines a bit more questionable as regards capital cost of the machine as well as its recurrent costs (use).

All of the individual client records are combined at the utility company to see the recorded utility use and rate of use at any time and can be compared to the system use etc. for system use analysis.

Perhaps some of the concerned about "Big Brother/Business" "watching you" would be alleviated if you spent a bit more time watching yourself as regards utility (electrical) use.

Evan
01-15-2012, 01:23 AM
You miss the point entirely. The issues isn't being "caught" using "too much". The issue is being watched at all. Nobody has the right to watch me inside my house regardless of what the nature of that watching may be. Bi monthly utility bills are sufficiently non informative and noninvasive to not constitute a significant invasion of privacy. Minute by minute accounting of my electricity, water and natural gas habits is an entirely different matter. It isn't merely a matter of degree, the watching is of an entirely different nature.

It goes far beyond what a free society should tolerate. Allowing it without complaint and protest shows just how far the majority have already been brainwashed to accept that the "State knows what's good for you and we are just making your life easier".

Who has the easiest life of all? A prisoner with no freedoms at all. He has no choices to make, no responsibilities and no need to plan for the future. It's all taken care of by his captors. Welcome to 1984.

oldtiffie
01-15-2012, 01:46 AM
You can prognosticate or theorise or go into and and out the philosophy of it all you like, but at the end of the day - with all of your kicking and screaming - you will have a smart meter which will be provided under the terms of the electricity utility terms and conditions of supply - eventually - or you may well have your existing meter with charges adjusted to act as a smart meter.

We here in Australia which had some of the worst Brit Penal Colonies and all that went with it are not unaccustomed to "doing it hard".

But there comes a time where not accepting the inevitable is an excercise in futility and stupidity.

A bit of a reality check is needed here.

jnissen
01-15-2012, 02:08 AM
Evan gets it. I get it. I don't like it at all and I let my power company know about it often. I have asked for a standard meter but get told no. I am not giving up. I value my privacy more than they need the data of what I am consuming or doing. Way over the bounds. Incremental losses in freedoms have turned 90% of the population into a bunch of dumbed down sheep. Only when it is to far gone will the majority wake up to the reality were in.

Rosco-P
01-15-2012, 03:00 AM
Fifteen pages of back and forth bickering. If you believe that smart meters are: an invasion of privacy; compromise your personal freedoms; will permit the utility to regulate your life and appliances remotely, go off grid.
Maybe we can return this forum to its usual mix of off topic and on topic machining.

oldtiffie
01-15-2012, 03:03 AM
Well,

I don't feel that my rights or privacy are compromised or trodden on or intruded upon at all as regards the smart meter.

The sooner I get it the better I will like it as I will have some more rights over the way I am charged for utility (electricity) than I ever had before.

It will enable me to "tune" my use and costs to a degree at my options and to see my costs and use almost in real time.

The best way of course if you don't like it is to elect to go "off grid" (if you can) and see how you manage it for yourself.

For those that feel hard done by or put upon or feel that they have had stuff forcibly imposed on them such as a smart meter, and if you have your facts right, why not consider a combined class action and share the costs and benefits?

In the meantime, I have addressed what the 2-second readiing/sampling is, what it is for and how it is used.

Boostinjdm
01-15-2012, 03:46 AM
I don't see smart meters as a privacy issue at all. You are choosing to purchase their services. They have the right to know how much and when they are selling it to you. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

I personally could not live without it. The measly $50-$60 I spend a month on electricity would only buy enough fuel to run a genny for a day or two. I'm happy spending a couple bucks a day to have power when I need it.

ptjw7uk
01-15-2012, 04:12 AM
Not to sure what all the fuss is about!
Smart meters will enable the power companies to locate those who bypass meters so as to get their power for free and in so doing costing the rest of us money!
Not sure if there are any other benefits as whatever happens the power companies will end up with more money and we will be paying it!
In the UK it was reported that the power companies were being paid not to use their nice new windmills! just how crazy is this green energy thing!!

Lets get a life back - on with chip making!
peter

RancherBill
01-15-2012, 06:24 AM
The issue is being watched at all. Nobody has the right to watch me inside my house regardless of what the nature of that watching may be.....

It goes far beyond what a free society should tolerate. Allowing it without complaint and protest shows just how far the majority have already been brainwashed to accept that the "State knows what's good for you and we are just making your life easier".

I see and understand the points you are making.

Here some random thoughts you may or may not find interesting.

BCHydro is NOT the '1984 Big Brother' company you think they are. They are a For Profit Corporation that is owned by the province. In Alberta all power companies with 2 exceptions are shareholder owned. We are getting smart meters here for two reasons. One is to use existing infrastructure more efficiently and secondly to implement some new cockamamie price increase. Profit not spying is driving the project.

With our new green products you have to manage the load within a system. The example of the electric is a good one. When the new wind generators are running full tilt it makes sense to charge cars in the day time, however when there si no wind power perhaps late at night is the beat time.

When our meter was changed we had notifications by mail and a phone call to arrange a time. They don't sneak around pulling meters when they think there is no one looking.

Your Terms of Service agreement with BCHydro gives them rights to enter your property to service their equipment. Your guard on the meter is probably in violation of your agreement. Here's a real story from another board I go to. A meter reader, doing rural work, cut off a lock on a gate so he could drive to the location to read the meter. A verbal confrontation occurred, several days later the foreman showed up to try to settle the matter. The landowner continued arguing. The foreman gave the landowner a condemned notice and said the power would be off in 4 days. Why was his electrical service condemned as being unsafe? A visible outside electrical out let had a broken cover or the cover was missing and the landowner was being an a$$.

Your guard is not going to stop them they will just open the fuse on the transformer.

Time change as they always have, but, the last two decades have seen previously unimaginable changes. London has the street video cams, the US NSA listens to voice and data on satellites, Google know more about me than my wife does (I have smart search or whatever it's called that uses my history to provide better searches). Banks and credit card companies know way more than they should. Even, IIRC, you have a video surveillance system that includes a camera that is pointed at a 'public street' to ID vehicles and licences that you were talking about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

What concerns me about the smart grid is people using the technology for criminal schemes, terror purposes or for the fun of hacking. Credit and debit cards were a good idea, but it has taken them decades to make them a little bit more secure with the chip. I hope we don't have to go through a 'wild west phase' with all this smart stuff, but, heck that's the title of this thread - Smart Meter - Already Hacked!!

flathead4
01-15-2012, 07:26 AM
Time change as they always have, but, the last two decades have seen previously unimaginable changes. London has the street video cams, the US NSA listens to voice and data on satellites, Google know more about me than my wife does (I have smart search or whatever it's called that uses my history to provide better searches). Banks and credit card companies know way more than they should. Even, IIRC, you have a video surveillance system that includes a camera that is pointed at a 'public street' to ID vehicles and licences that you were talking about 3 or 4 weeks ago.



You forgot about cell phones. People HAVE been convicted of crimes based on cell phone voice/text message records. How many times have you texted someone your location or destination? I just don't feel that data from smart meters is in the same class. Maybe the data could be used to corroborate other evidence. Such as implicating you in the disapperance of that pesky neighbor because the sound of an electric chainsaw in the neighborhood could be linked to a spike in your electric consumption.

Personally, I would like to have a smart meter as long as I have real-time access to the data.

Tom

aboard_epsilon
01-15-2012, 07:37 AM
You forgot about cell phones. People HAVE been convicted of crimes based on cell phone voice/text message records. How many times have you texted someone your location or destination? I just don't feel that data from smart meters is in the same class. Maybe the data could be used to corroborate other evidence. Such as implicating you in the disapperance of that pesky neighbor because the sound of an electric chainsaw in the neighborhood could be linked to a spike in your electric consumption.

Personally, I would like to have a smart meter as long as I have real-time access to the data.

Tom

if a car has been involved in an accident were someone is injured in the uk ..the first thing the police do is take the cell phones ..there have been quite a few people convicted on evidence that they were used at the exact time of the accoident .

all the best.markj

RancherBill
01-15-2012, 07:49 AM
Personally, I would like to have a smart meter as long as I have real-time access to the data.

Tom

You can have it NOW if you live in certain pilot project locations.

Google PowerMeter (http://www.google.com/powermeter/about/)

mochinist
01-15-2012, 08:36 AM
You forgot about cell phones. People HAVE been convicted of crimes based on cell phone voice/text message records. How many times have you texted someone your location or destination? I just don't feel that data from smart meters is in the same class. Maybe the data could be used to corroborate other evidence. Such as implicating you in the disapperance of that pesky neighbor because the sound of an electric chainsaw in the neighborhood could be linked to a spike in your electric consumption.

Personally, I would like to have a smart meter as long as I have real-time access to the data.

TomLast summer my wifes catalytic converter was stolen off of her vehicle in front of our house. We filed a police report even though I knew(thought) that it wouldnt do much and was probably a waste of time...So about two months ago my phone rings and it is some detective with the local pd, he tells me they caught a guy that had 50+ catalytic converters in his vehicle and he also had a smart phone with built in GPS. They were able to tell the exact time he was in front of our our house and it matched the police report we filed.:D We've been getting letters from the prosecuting attorneys office and it looks like the scumbag is facing 5 to 10 years, since he had so many. Were still out the cost of the converter:mad:, so hopefully the guy gets placed in a cell with bubba the man lover.

Your Old Dog
01-15-2012, 08:44 AM
You're crediting the toothless meth-head crims with a lot more grey-matter then they have left. "They" prescribe pills for paranoia:D

If I told you they (the government) can read your liscense plate on your car from outer space would you believe it?

The real problem I see is that many people are so willing to let anyone have this much power over them. Why is it so damn important that the power company need that much control of our electricity. Just bill us an extra buck or two if you feel someone is getting away with a few milliamps of juice. It would surely be a cheaper answer for the consumer then all the technology needed to do smart power?

Tony Ennis
01-15-2012, 09:00 AM
You'll probably find that the companies that make the smart meters are lobbying for laws which require them. Congressmen in the districts where they are made will agree to this because it's more jobs.

Once the data is collected, it will be used by the government in a way the consumer doesn't intend. This is as sure as death and taxes.

Evan
01-15-2012, 09:24 AM
My comments in red:



Here some random thoughts you may or may not find interesting.

BCHydro is NOT the '1984 Big Brother' company you think they are. They are a For Profit Corporation that is owned by the province. In Alberta all power companies with 2 exceptions are shareholder owned. We are getting smart meters here for two reasons. One is to use existing infrastructure more efficiently and secondly to implement some new cockamamie price increase. Profit not spying is driving the project.

The only efficiencies that may be expected are in firing meter readers and catching power thieves. Current metering systems are sufficient to notice bypassed meters. 1984 is a concept of overarching surveillence by the state of the population combined with a web of lies told to convince us it is a good thing. We are there.

With our new green products you have to manage the load within a system. The example of the electric is a good one. When the new wind generators are running full tilt it makes sense to charge cars in the day time, however when there si no wind power perhaps late at night is the beat time.

Smart meters won't assist the consumer in managing anything. It will assist the power company in charging more for the product. It will also assist the power company in managing how you live your life by entering your home and turning off your water heater, air conditioner or whatever else they wish whenever they wish. You will have no say.

When our meter was changed we had notifications by mail and a phone call to arrange a time. They don't sneak around pulling meters when they think there is no one looking.

They do install meters here without your permission and they do install a radio transmitter that is able to secretly report on your activities without your knowledge

Your Terms of Service agreement with BCHydro gives them rights to enter your property to service their equipment. Your guard on the meter is probably in violation of your agreement. Here's a real story from another board I go to. A meter reader, doing rural work, cut off a lock on a gate so he could drive to the location to read the meter. A verbal confrontation occurred, several days later the foreman showed up to try to settle the matter. The landowner continued arguing. The foreman gave the landowner a condemned notice and said the power would be off in 4 days. Why was his electrical service condemned as being unsafe? A visible outside electrical out let had a broken cover or the cover was missing and the landowner was being an a$$.

There is no "terms of service" agreement with the power company. They don't have the legal power to impose that. Everything they do is controlled by the public utilities commission. Those rules have nothing to say about me not allowing them to remove my meter. The only conditions under which they are allowed to cut off my service is if I haven't paid my bill or are doing service they have advertised on the local power system. I don't know where that story came from but the power company doesn't have the power to condemn my electrical system. They do not enforce the electrical code.

Your guard is not going to stop them they will just open the fuse on the transformer.

The transformer serves another house. They will have to rewire the system. I also had the meter and associated wiring checked and calibrated last year. It was recorded as all being fine.

Time change as they always have, but, the last two decades have seen previously unimaginable changes. London has the street video cams, the US NSA listens to voice and data on satellites, Google know more about me than my wife does (I have smart search or whatever it's called that uses my history to provide better searches). Banks and credit card companies know way more than they should. Even, IIRC, you have a video surveillance system that includes a camera that is pointed at a 'public street' to ID vehicles and licences that you were talking about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

A portion of the road that I observe with my camera belongs to me. When they put in the road they encroached on this property with the road being about ten feet into my side of the line in that particular part. Everyone that drives on that area also drives over my property. I have offered to sell it to them but they don't seem interested. The camera is not good enough quality to ID anything. It mere shows that someone is there. All the neighbours know about it. Regardless, other than my portion it is PUBLIC property, not private property.


In fact, now that I think about it the power lines also run over the corner of my property and they don't have an easement. Bargaining power.

Rustybolt
01-15-2012, 10:31 AM
What I do, and when I do it with the electricity I pay for is nobodies business. if the power companies are concerned about peak load, then build more power supplies. Can't afford to? Then allow competition. Believe me somebody will supply the power.
Smart meters aren't about regulating power, they are about regulating behavior.

lazlo
01-15-2012, 10:50 AM
Fear mongering. I'm not buying it.

Funny how some companies gathering private information is invasive, and others is fear mongering :)

People get irritated that all the online majors (Ebay, Amazon, Google, Apple, Ebay...) collect stats on you via Flash cookies. So if you type a post here about grindstones and then go to Amazon or Ebay, what do you know -- "You might be interested in..." pops up grindstones for sale.

If you look for left handed screwdrivers on Amazon, then go to Ebay -- what do you know -- "You might be interested in..." pops up left handed screwdrivers.

You type an email about cancer in GMail or GTalk, and suddenly you get Google AdSense ads about cancer treatments.

"They" are compiling a profile of you, based on everything you do on the Internet. And "they" are sharing, and selling, your profile.

Likewise for the credit card companies, who track every item you buy, build an extensive profile of you, freely available to anyone for purchase. There was a huge debacle with the Patriot Act allowing the Department of Homeland Security to troll the credit card and Internet databases. It's unconstitutional for the Fed to collect data on you themselves, but the Patriot Act made it legal for them to purchase the credit card and Internet profiles. "Oh, I notice you've purchased quite a few guns..."

So now the power companies are getting in on the act -- they're installing sophisticated, expensive, real-time monitoring devices on your house. Why do you suppose they're spending 10's of millions of dollars to retrofit all their power meters? They obviously don't need a network of wireless microprocessors to detect power outages. :rolleyes:

Tony Ennis
01-15-2012, 11:10 AM
Power companies will likely sell the usage data to marketers. They know who uses more power (and thus could be good sales leads for people who might wish to conserve, or for people who exhibit conspicuous consumption...AKA wealthy people). They will know when you're using the (electric) oven/stove, so the marketers will know exactly when to call. They will know when you go to bed - advertisers will want this information, so they don't buy useless ads on TV.

It will be an enormous windfall for the power companies and the marketers - whether you want this information known or not.

Black_Moons
01-15-2012, 12:20 PM
What I do, and when I do it with the electricity I pay for is nobodies business. if the power companies are concerned about peak load, then build more power supplies. Can't afford to? Then allow competition. Believe me somebody will supply the power.
Smart meters aren't about regulating power, they are about regulating behavior.

Exactly, I have absolutely no choice in where I get my power from, Im forced into this program I did not want, ask for or need, All so the power company can make a few extra bucks at my privacys expense.

'(BC hydro) net income of $447 million for the year ended March 31, 2010, which is $82 million higher than the prior year's net income.'

So they are hardly needing to make MORE money. Considering they are owned by BC, where does this $447 million go?
A quick check finds the top 6 making $400,000 each, With one managing director who gets a million dollars total compensation per year?!?!
http://www.bchydro.com/etc/medialib/internet/documents/policies/pdf/executive_compensation_2011.Par.0001.File.executiv e_compensation_2011.pdf

How would you like a GPS unit installed in your car for 'better usage stats on your insurance! we'r not gonna do anything with the data... YET, but we decided it was mandatory just incase we decide to sell all your habits on later to marketers, lawyers, your wife, etc'

Same diffrence, they have absolutely no right to my private information, And untill now the power company has been servicing me just fine, And I see absolutely no reason to force this crap apon me except for them to try and exchange my privacy for more dollars, and I just won't bloody stand for it!

And as for cost of increase of using a 'non smart meter' I would gladly pay more then a 'smart meter' user for my electricity if I did'nt have someone spying on every last watt.

danlb
01-15-2012, 12:58 PM
What I do, and when I do it with the electricity I pay for is nobodies business. if the power companies are concerned about peak load, then build more power supplies. Can't afford to? Then allow competition. Believe me somebody will supply the power.
Smart meters aren't about regulating power, they are about regulating behavior.

As a former employee of two regulated public utilities, I can only say that competition is NOT a good thing when it comes to services that you absolutely must rely on. Competition lowers quality while it increases prices and complexity.

Regulated utilities are allowed a profit, but only a limited one. They are subject to regulations that require equitable treatment of all users of the service. The prices are often 'actual cost + x percent'. They are subject to regulations that set a minimum level of quality.

I was with AT&T when it split up, and saw prices go from $11 a month to $25 in only a couple of years. Now it's somewhere above $70. My phone is no longer the most reliable thing in the house, and the service is 'OK', but not 7 times better. I was with PG&E when it went 'deregulated' and we saw the prices skyrocket. The Enron scandal was the biggest debacle in decades. It drove PG&E into bankruptcy. We had rolling blackouts for several years.

Competition does not work when there is a captive consumer base. If you are forced to choose between one of the competitors then you can not boycott when the prices / policies become onerous. In the case of power, it's not reasonable to expect the average person to go off grid since the average person does not maintain their car properly. Maintaining a battery bank would be beyond them.

Competition also fails when the barriers to becoming a competitor are high. To really have competition you need to have duplicate infrastructures. In our area, the utilities pay rent on the land where all of those power lines run. Some cities even charge for the privilege of using pace on the telephone/power poles. When there is competition you don't really get a second set of telephone poles with new power lines. You get company A and company B both connecting their generators to the same set of transmission facilities and they play some interesting games to figure out how YOUR dollars go to pay company B (if they generated enough power to cover all their customers).

Sorry... Way off topic. Obviously, I hate the fact that the current phone companies are being run by some openly greedy, openly arrogant and openly unethical officers. I've sat in the company auditorium and heard the CEO say "We will force the regulators to let us do what we want. We'll get rid of the ones that do not." If it were not for the caliber of the rank and file employees keeping them in check, I'd be as worried as Evan and Black Moons.


Dan

Evan
01-15-2012, 01:03 PM
I wonder what happens to the power calculations in a meter if you only use every half cycle of power? For example, feeding a resistive load through a diode.

oldtiffie
01-15-2012, 01:53 PM
Wow!!!!

There really seems to be some really persecuted traumatised put-upon people here.

Even if it were true here - which I hope and think isn't the case - I can't see that all the winding-up of each other is going to achieve much - if anything - of substance and positive outcomes.

Perhaps if some had their other foot fixed to the ground as well they might see things differently - but perhaps not as there may be more jumping up and down instead.

I am quite well adjusted to things as they are and a smart meter being installed here is of no concern what-so-ever.

As long as I have a reliable reasonably-priced electrical supply my needs and concerns are satisfied.

If some who are so "up-tight" here ever tried to get into my shop they would be refused or in the unlikely event that they did get in and carried on like some here are they'd damn soon get tipped right out again as an unacceptable risk to themselves and others (me included).

So, all in all, as my power supply seems assured where with my existing (non-smart) or my soon-to-be installed smart meter then I think that I am pretty well and am grateful for it.

The Artful Bodger
01-15-2012, 02:10 PM
I wonder what happens to the power calculations in a meter if you only use every half cycle of power? For example, feeding a resistive load through a diode.


I expect they can detect that. Power companies dont like a DC component, and neither do I, as it causes corrosion on the earth peg.

Evan
01-15-2012, 02:21 PM
They may be able to detect that but what can they do about it? More to the point, how is it measured? It shouldn't show up as poor power factor since the power factor is still nearly exactly unity, just only one half cycle per cycle. However, the average voltage is only half.

It isn't something they would engineer for since no house would present that sort of load except maybe mine. :D

oldtiffie
01-15-2012, 02:31 PM
Perhaps those who have such concerns should call out the Minute Men.

Spooky!!

The Artful Bodger
01-15-2012, 02:37 PM
They may be able to detect that but what can they do about it? Cut supply to an unsafe installation which is endangering the protective earth system at their transformer.



More to the point, how is it measured? It shouldn't show up as poor power factor since the power factor is still nearly exactly unity, just only one half cycle per cycle. However, the average voltage is only half. Not to be confused with power factor.




It isn't something they would engineer for since no house would present that sort of load except maybe mine. :D Any other house with a rectifying fault and anyone trying to steal power by using half wave battery chargers.

Evan
01-15-2012, 02:45 PM
The fact that they can't measure it accurately does not make it theft.

The Artful Bodger
01-15-2012, 04:05 PM
I think you will find that even in Canada theft is theft even if the victim does not know you are doing it.

aboard_epsilon
01-15-2012, 04:09 PM
wonder what one of those violet wands from the 1930s would do to it ..they are not wired the conventional way ..

they have the live going right up to the bulb ..and what ever they are controlled by ..an air gap high frequency thingy is on the neutral .

bet the thing would be frown into confusion ..and they dont use much current either.

come to think of it ..any neon device of old

all the best.markj

jugs
01-15-2012, 04:24 PM
I think you will find that even in Canada theft is theft even if the victim does not know you are doing it.

Unless the perpetrator is a politician, banker, lawyer, insurance company, multi-national company or government :mad:

Black_Moons
01-15-2012, 04:26 PM
Perhaps those who have such concerns should call out the Minute Men.
Spooky!!

If you have nothing constructive to say please stay out of this thread. You have made your views of not caring at all whatsoever well known on every single page, multiple times, and they do not need reiterating every 15 minutes, reguardless if there has been any replys in the meantime.

For someone who apparently does not care, you sure care about disrupting this thread a lot.

The Artful Bodger
01-15-2012, 04:28 PM
Unless the perpetrator is a politician, banker, lawyer, insurance company, multi-national company or government :mad:

Yeabut, those guys dont care if their victim knows or not.:)

oldtiffie
01-15-2012, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie

Perhaps those who have such concerns should call out the Minute Men.
Spooky!!


If you have nothing constructive to say please stay out of this thread. You have made your views of not caring at all whatsoever well known on every single page, multiple times, and they do not need reiterating every 15 minutes, reguardless if there has been any replys in the meantime.

For someone who apparently does not care, you sure care about disrupting this thread a lot.

As you have addressed that to me directly, I will answer likewise.

As I've said (often enough?) the reason I don't care is that I see no need to.

I do see the same concerns and complaints reiterated quite frequently - seemingly not so much by those that have smart meters but mainly by those that don't.

But if there is anything that can be done to alleviate your concerns about smart meters, I take it you have sorted out what it might be - now I'd suggest that you either do something about it and learn to live with it. Or perhaps you have tried and come to a dead end.

jugs
01-15-2012, 05:25 PM
If you have nothing constructive to say please stay out of this thread. You have made your views of not caring at all whatsoever well known on every single page, multiple times, and they do not need reiterating every 15 minutes, reguardless if there has been any replys in the meantime.

For someone who apparently does not care, you sure care about disrupting this thread a lot.


FIGHT http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent080.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) FIGHT



The girls are puting bricks in their handbags so it may get messy http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent022.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Ive got a comfy seat & some popcorn so.....Seconds out, Round 3 http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sport011.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

flathead4
01-15-2012, 05:52 PM
If you have nothing constructive to say please stay out of this thread. You have made your views of not caring at all whatsoever well known on every single page, multiple times, and they do not need reiterating every 15 minutes, reguardless if there has been any replys in the meantime.



I suggest that the next time you start a thread that you wish to be on-sided, say so up front so ya'll can have it to yourselves.

Tom

oldtiffie
01-15-2012, 06:06 PM
I suggest that the next time you start a thread that you wish to be on-sided, say so up front so ya'll can have it to yourselves.

Tom

Good comment Tom.

I went back to the OP and here are the details:

Title of the OP (original post) by the Original Poster (Black_Moons):


Smart power meters: Already hacked.

and here is the text of it:


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/09/smart_meter_privacy_oops/

I recall a thread awhile back over fears of smart power meters, and them being hacked, showing basicly what kind of appliances you have and.. when your home or not.

Well, They have already been hacked, and apparently one energy company had them misconfigured and they where sending data in plain text.

'This meant that confidential electricity consumption data was sent in clear text. Because meter readings were sent in clear text, the researchers were able to intercept and send back forged (incorrect) meter readings back to Discovergy.'

But wait! it gets worse:

'In addition, the researchers discovered that a complete historical record of users' meter usage was easily obtained from Discovergy's servers via an interface designed to provide access to usage for only the last three months. The meters supplied by the firm log power usage in two-second intervals. This fine-grained data was enough not only to determine what appliances a user was using over a period of time – thanks to the power signature of particular devices – but even which film they were watching.'

Im sure the MPAA will love that :P 'Heres a $20,000 fine in the mail, we determined you where watching an unlisenced film' 'That power signature was my CNC, not a cam movie rip' 'Good luck explaining that in coart'

It sort of went on from there.

I still see no reason why I should be concerned but I agree absolutely that others may differ - as it seems they do.