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dian
01-13-2012, 01:29 PM
i own a dividing head (spacer in american?) but it is 80 kg. i dont feel like putting it on the mill very often.

i am lokking for a little "direct dividing head" as we call it including a tailstock.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140496496795&ssPageName=ADME:X:eRTM:DE:1123

is this any good for milling? after all the little screw is supposed to lock it. also, does this move axially and can it be locked?

enco seems to have this in three seemingly identical versions, but they dont state any size (???). which one woul you get?

interestingly it is equally expensive to get stuff from the states and from germany (roughly).

and yes, has anybody seen something similar with a er colletts?

or do i make it myself, having a straight (20 mm, seems a bit week) shank er 32 collet arbour? what bearings, bronze, tapered?

CountZero
01-13-2012, 01:42 PM
Look here: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures

Toolguy
01-13-2012, 02:07 PM
Hi Dian-

I have the exact indexer and tailstock you show in the link. They are a good quality set.

Harvey Melvin Richards
01-13-2012, 04:37 PM
I have one that looks like those posted. Why can't they make the base so it's machined square? The bottom is flat, but none of the edges are machined. It's difficult to mount easily on anything other than a magnetic chuck. It seems like a bad design that was quickly copied without any thought being put into the end result.

Toolguy
01-13-2012, 05:04 PM
I agree. I set up and machine mine to be square. Then you can just put it in the mill vise and not have to mess with finger clamps and indicating every time. Also it is square on the surface grinder that way too.

Harvey Melvin Richards
01-13-2012, 06:13 PM
I agree. I set up and machine mine to be square. Then you can just put it in the mill vise and not have to mess with finger clamps and indicating every time. Also it is square on the surface grinder that way too.

Yeah, I know that's what needs to be done. It just seems like it should be made that way.

dian
01-14-2012, 02:51 AM
zero, thanks, i have seen that, but its out of stock.

Tony Ennis
01-14-2012, 09:26 AM
I bought what seems to be the same 'headstock' part (no tailstock) for about $40.

I have not used it yet, but it seems fine. It is larger and heavier than I expected.

DICKEYBIRD
01-14-2012, 10:08 AM
zero, thanks, i have seen that, but its out of stock.
I bought one of these to go with my 5c indexer and have the best of both worlds and it is in stock.:D

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures/5C-to-ER32-Collet-Adaptor

dp
01-14-2012, 02:13 PM
These cheap, simple tools are one of the handiest, most versatile tools in the shop:

http://www.google.com/search?q=spin%20indexer&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=cdMRT7DDM67XiQLFxOjbDQ&biw=958&bih=693&sei=dNMRT_PdLMmniQK0isHsDQ

Someone here wrote up a great web page on reworking one of these to remove the manufacturing problems - flat mount surface, square sides, slotting for attaching to a slotted table, etc. Haven't found that link yet but it does a bang up job of explaining how to make these things worth owning.

legendboy
01-14-2012, 03:05 PM
i have one, works ok.

Last time i used it the lock ring came loose as i was making a cut and wrecked a $90 sowa m42 endmill.

Not going to use it again until some mods are done

Oldguy
01-14-2012, 03:12 PM
Here is a link to modding a spin indexer:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2681.0

Glenn

mike4
01-14-2012, 05:26 PM
Could anyone who owns one of these handy looking items , tell me what type of bearing if any that they have inside the housing ?
I am looking at purchasing one but it will be subject to heavy use for a few weeks and may not hold up with milling vibration from reasonable cuts in steel parts.
I am not one to spend time reworking something that I have bought to do a specific task as some here are .
If there are no bearings , either bronzr or tapered roller then ii may be better to make up something from off the shelf parts like a spindle with heavy duty bearingswhich can be easily adjusted and replaced when the time comes.
I want to hold around 10kg of part and a final tolerance of 0.001.

This may not be a high tolerance for some here but thats all the client wants , their application is for a slide fit into a cast steel frame ,there will be a layer of grease or neverseize applied before assembly to make removal for maintenance easier.

The original parts were cast iron and would crack after about a week .
Cost of OEM part $1500 ,our replacement $900. with a 12 month life .
It is a carrier for an axle bearing assembly.
Heavy loads on uneven roadways are what the manufacturers didnt allow for .
Design didnt allow for real world use.(and as was stated in a previous post sometimes the designers get it wrong just for asthetics.)
Michael

Uncle O
01-14-2012, 05:39 PM
There are no bearings per se, just a snug sliding fit.

mike4
01-14-2012, 05:51 PM
There are no bearings per se, just a snug sliding fit.
Thanks ,you have saved me some grief.
Looks like its make one with bearings to take the load.
Steel base welded to heavy wall tubing then machine as required.

Dont have much faith in lightweight cast iron as it does fail at the worst possible time , like last cut on a four hour job.

And before the hounds are let loose on me , I do use heavy cast machines and attachments .
Michael

.RC.
01-14-2012, 05:53 PM
Anyone know why the prices vary so wildly for these devices...

The seller of them in this country wants $280 for the device + tailstock.

The one linked in the OP is 180 Euro.

Yet in the US they are around $0.20c

Ohio Mike
01-14-2012, 06:31 PM
You can mill with them however you need to careful and go slow. These were designed for use on grinders so don't think you can go hog out a big cut. Advancte to me is they use 5c collets which I already had. Someday I'd like to get some ER collets and the Stevenson adapter.

When I bought mine I went with a Phase II. Enco had them on sale and I found a discount code and a free shipping coupon that made it less that the nameless units. I knew the Phase II would be good and I was actually impressed with the packaging and the fit and finish. Its not Suburban Tool quality but its also not $700. The downside is I wish I had a tail stock now and that is much more elusive item by itself.

John Stevenson
01-14-2012, 06:58 PM
These cheap, simple tools are one of the handiest, most versatile tools in the shop:

http://www.google.com/search?q=spin%20indexer&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=cdMRT7DDM67XiQLFxOjbDQ&biw=958&bih=693&sei=dNMRT_PdLMmniQK0isHsDQ



Good link DP found about 5 of my shots on there, most been stolen from other posts and reposted with no credits :(

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZvxQmqh5QxIvQEqlrac5f3Wo-Aezjpsdq5xbnlRELKAGYa2Bs

Etc.

Ohio Mike
01-14-2012, 11:06 PM
A plug for HSM :)

The Home Shop Machinist Magazine Vol 30 No 3 May-Jun 2011 had an article "Tweaking and Using an Imported Spin Index", very good read.

https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/2316

Rosco-P
01-15-2012, 03:03 AM
If you think you are going to much milling, you'll be happier picking up an indexer. A used one made by Hardinge, Yuasa or News is an affordable an usefull addition to a milling machine. Even one of these would yield better results on a mill than an un-modified spindex: http://www.phase2plus.com/details.asp?pr=5C_HORIZONTAL_VERTICAL_COLLET_INDEX&id=15

John Stevenson
01-15-2012, 01:00 PM
I bought one of these to go with my 5c indexer and have the best of both worlds and it is in stock.:D

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures/5C-to-ER32-Collet-Adaptor
I went to this link and noticed it was just called a 5C to ER32 Collet Adaptor so i sent the following email to ARC's complains department.

"Dear Sirs,
The 5C to ER32 Collet Adaptor is not listed as the STEVENSON 5C to ER32 Collet Adaptor and I feel I am loosing out on royalties.

I have probably lost at least a quid."

Today, Sunday bless you, I received the following prompt reply.

"
Dear Mr.Stevenson, Please accept our apologies for this error. I have passed this to our sales and marketing department for urgent attention. Ketan.

Dear marketing & sales department, A Mr.Stevenson has brought this to my attention. Please discuss with me how we can resolve this error....excluding royalties of 1.00. Kind Regards, Ketan."

Now that's what I call service. :D :) but the ba$tard has still got my quid AGAIN.

dian
01-15-2012, 01:37 PM
but the whole unit is not availabele, right? im going to buy from rc machines, i recon.
started to make my own today also.

mike4
01-15-2012, 06:42 PM
If you think you are going to much milling, you'll be happier picking up an indexer. A used one made by Hardinge, Yuasa or News is an affordable an usefull addition to a milling machine. Even one of these would yield better results on a mill than an un-modified spindex: http://www.phase2plus.com/details.asp?pr=5C_HORIZONTAL_VERTICAL_COLLET_INDEX&id=15

I already have a couple of indexers,but they are too slow to adjist when all thats required for some operations is a 6mm deep cut every 90 degrees ,winding the handle on an indexer gets tiring after 10 parts ,let alone 50 .

Johns motorised spindexer is what attracted my to the idea of getting one ,but if they arent suitable ,then ok go at it a different way.

Shouldnt be too hard to make something similar with adjustable tapered roller bearings that allows the use of ER and other collets .5C is not an option for me as none of my equipment can use it ,Morse or ISO tapers .
I dont need cnc either before it gets suggested ,if i went that way I would be back where I was thirty years ago , more debt than you could poke a stick at and sometimes no way to meet payments , no thanks.

I have a different approach to work and life than most.

Its get the job done ,safely and make some money at the same time , worry about the necessary things only , dont give a fig about keeping up with the joneses or other flashy people who have more debt than income and usually fade into obscurity .
Michael

noah katz
01-15-2012, 08:29 PM
Could anyone who owns one of these handy looking items , tell me what type of bearing if any that they have inside the housing ?

It's not turning while subject to machining forces, so why would you need a bearing?


I already have a couple of indexers,but they are too slow to adjist when all thats required for some operations is a 6mm deep cut every 90 degrees...

How about a 90 deg collet block?

Rosco-P
01-15-2012, 11:34 PM
I already have a couple of indexers,but they are too slow to adjist when all thats required for some operations is a 6mm deep cut every 90 degrees ,winding the handle on an indexer gets tiring after 10 parts ,let alone 50 .
Michael

Not suggesting a dividing head, which seems to be what you're describing. Suggesting an indexer which has the mass and bearings to be used for the type of milling you describe. One turn of the crank equals one revolution of the spindle, no gearing.
A motorized spindexer requires a controller. So the one John Stevenson shows would require a move into the CNC arena which you aren't prepared to do at his time.

John Stevenson
01-16-2012, 04:39 AM
I use mine with a hand held electronic indexer like the division master.
Basically one axis of a CNC but easier to use and self contained.

mike4
01-16-2012, 07:09 AM
I use mine with a hand held electronic indexer like the division master.
Basically one axis of a CNC but easier to use and self contained.

Thats what attracted me in the first place .And thanks for the comments and suggestions .

I like to have equipment which will ususlly outlast me without requiring constant tlc, just the necessary clean and lubrication.

I have nothing against CNC except the cost , 4 machines at around $100 k each plus having to keep working for a lot longer than I had originally planned just to pay for them.

At the moment CNC isnt very useful for the type of work which I do , mainly one offs , this current lot is just because a friend asked for some help.

I did try to use a friends cnc gear to make some parts for an old machine once and it took longer to measure the originals ,program the machine to make one than it did to do the exercise on a manual machine..
We both ended up using manual machines as there wasnt much production , but lots of long winded programs which have long since been deleted due to them only being required for one part which will not be required again.
Michael

outback
04-24-2012, 11:24 PM
The imported spin indexers really have a fine cast iron base and spindle. Over the years I have made improvements to my spin indexer to make it work better.

First, they must have 1/16 clearance between the spindle and drawbar. The threads on the collet have the job of centering the drawbar. I made a sleeve bearing that is pressed into the spindle the keeps the drawbar centered. The sleeve is Nothing fance and probably has .005 or .010 clearance on the drawbar. Much better than it was. The sleeve bearing could be made of a number of materials. Aluminum, steel, plastic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Spin%20Indexer/Drawbarbearing.jpg

Next, get rid of all the setscrews. The black ring between the drawbar and the cast iron base needs to go altogether. The black ring has one or two setcrews that is intended to take out the endplay of the spindle. They work okay until the 5C collet is loosened. But when the drawbar is tapped to loosen the collet the retaining ring moves so now there is endplay in the spindle again.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Spin%20Indexer/0967202-11.jpg

The crank on the drawbar is held in place with setscrews. I took some experimentation but I found a point where the drawbar tightens the collet. The drawbar crank is pulling against the spindle and the collet. Take the setscrews holes and drill and tap the setscrew hole through the drawbar so the drawbar crank can never move again unless the setscrews are removed. The setscrews double up as pins.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Spin%20Indexer/colletdrawbar.jpg

The indexing plate is held in place with a threaded ring. Remember it is possible for the indexing plate to move. Always use the little pin with the knurled head to lock the spindle through the bushing on top of the indexer so the collet can be tightened or loosened. Lock the spindle with the cast iron base.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Spin%20Indexer/Indexerparts.jpg

Finally, we still need to address the spindle endplay. I made a brass sleeve for the outside of the spin indexer spindle. I drilled through the sleeve and the spindle in two places and pinned the two together with rollpins.

Next I threaded the sleeve. I do not recall the OD but the pitch was 32 TPI. I machined the threads on my lathe and checked them for depth with thread wires. Then I took two steel rings and knurled the outside and threaded the inside to mate with the threads on the brass sleeve. One threaded ring adjusts the endplay on the spindle and the second ring locks the first ring in place
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/EndPlayadjuster.jpg

The spin indexer is now dependable and a pleasure to use.

Hope this was of interest,
Jim

dp
04-25-2012, 12:15 AM
Enough so it deserves its own thread, or a place in the shop made tools thread (or both). This is such a ubiquitous tool that a Spindexer Hints and Tips thread could result in a nice collection of improvements and usages.

Paul Alciatore
04-25-2012, 01:33 AM
There are no bearings per se, just a snug sliding fit.

"A snug sliding fit", isn't that the definition of a journal bearing?


I believe one of our sponsor's magazines had an article on improving a spin index some time ago. Can't remember which one or when.

loose nut
04-25-2012, 08:21 AM
Why can't they make the base so it's machined square? .

cost and price.

dian
04-26-2012, 03:39 PM
outback, i got a "type pf70" indexer and i dont know if its different from yours.

the best thing about it: it was on sale. the spindle moves by 0.08 mm in the housing and there is noticable movement in the locating pin also. for indexing jobs its o.k., because the locking screw presses the spindle into a repeatable position, but one day i will make another pin for it. if you indended to rotate and possibly advance the spindle when milling or grinding, it is totally useles, i think.

now, the only thing, thats also good about it: it doesnt have any end play. if i squeeze the black ring against the front of the spindle close to each of the tree set screws, when tightening them, there is no measurable play. maybe the surfaces would benefit from some lapping to make things smother? (why would you want change the collet and tap the spindle in the same settup?)

also, what is the purpose of the bushing, you pressed into the spindle? the collet is centerd by the two ground surfaces, so what does it help?

what would be a way to eliminate the lose spindle? splitting the case (its hard to saw between the locating holes)? maybe two speedy sleeves, if available. i dont remember how thick they are, does anybody know?

btw, the tailstock is o.k., the centre is quite tight in the bore. both, the tailstock and the indexer bores are very rough and a little rusted.

just for fun: the little indexer being milled in the pf70 indexer.

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae218/romandian/x065.jpg

outback
04-26-2012, 09:40 PM
Dian;

The bearing pressed into the spindle is intended to keep the drawbar somewhat centered to the spindle. I probably did not make it clear there is a step inside the spindle where the draw bar bottoms out. The draw bar bottoms out on the step then pulls the collet back untill it tightens on the workpiece. Originally the drawbar bottomed out on the crankhandle. The crankhandle actually tightenened the collet "originally".

Too bad about the clearance between the spindle and housing. Mine has an amazing fit with no noticeable clearance. I thought they were all like mine. Apparently not.

Below is another addition I added to my 5C Indexer. I bolted a 1/2" thick plate to the base of the indexer. Notice the plate extends a few inches beyond the housing. This prevents the indexer from tilting when drilling while the indexer is held in a milling machine vise.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/jglass/Shop%20Demonstrations/Indexerassembled.jpg
Jim