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Toxic
01-14-2012, 08:43 AM
I have rencently picked up this older clausing chochester lathe. I have found out very fast that i need a drill chuck for the tail stock for both drilling holes as well as turning centers. I am haveing a hard time finding what i need. I beleive the tailstock takes 3MT so i found this on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GRIZZLY-METAL-LATHE-3-4-DRILL-CHUCK-MT3-TAILSTOCK-NEW-/320697930692

However i would like to order from a canadian site like this
http://traverscanada.com/skulist.asp?RequestData=CA_Search&navPath=All+Products%2F%2F%2F%2FMachine+Tool+Acces sories%2F%2F%2F%2FChucks+-+Drill&q=block+id+37128+and+class+level3+id+28986&minPrice=$43.73

But i am a bit confused is. Is a 33JT mount the same as a 3MT so if i buy a drill chuck with a 33JT mount do i then buy a 33JT arbor? Does it matter what type of chuck i buy? Also i have lots of drills but is there a "kit" of short pilot hole starter bits i can buy Sorry if this is a pretty newb question...Just leaning..Thanks

pic for reference...

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Gary Gill
01-14-2012, 09:00 AM
Welcome to the board. The "3MT" refers to the #3 Morse taper portion of the arbor that mates to the tail stock. The 33JT refers to the other end of the arbor the mates to the drill chuck. There are drill chuck tapers besides the 3JT. You probably will want a live or dead center for holding work at the tail stock rather than trying to use a drill chuck. Check out youtube "Tubalcain" for great information.

Stepside
01-14-2012, 09:17 AM
The 3MT is the end that goes in the ram of the tailstock. The 33J is the end the chuck mounts on. What is important is that the chuck has the same mounting taper as the chuck end of the arbor.

I would go through the archives too read on how to mount the chuck on the arbor. There are lots of different "correct ways" to do this. My way is 1) clean the mating tapers with lacquer thinner or alcohol. 2) Warm the chuck to maybe 200F. 3) Chill the arbor in the fridge overnight (or if it is cold enough outside, leave it out overnight) 4) mate the warm chuck and the cold arbor. 4) With chuck open as far as it will go, place the chuck end down on a piece of wood and hit the end of the arbor one quick blow with a "dead blow" hammer.

If you are planning to turn between centers you will need the center drills. The set will allow you to work on larger and smaller diameter shafting.

RussZHC
01-14-2012, 09:38 AM
Ah, the world of tooling...this page will give you an idea re: arbors

http://www.traverscanada.com/skulist.asp?RequestData=CA_Search&navPath=All+Products%2F%2F%2F%2FUserSearch1%3Darbo r&q=block+id+51594+and+class+level3+id+29089&minPrice=$6.06

there have been more than a few discussions as to drill chuck quality and not to totally rehash them but I think it would be in no particular order, Rohm, older Jacobs (the whole ID by what is stamped on item thingy), Albrecht as to "favorites"...I would also hazard a guess common advice would be to buy as you need (not precisely what I do ;) ) and I mention that since it is likely as you tool up you will end up buying several drill chucks (different sizes/capacities/qualities) and I suspect it is unlikely all will have the same internal attachment (any one of the tapers or threaded) plus the lathe tailstock Morse taper may or may not match the taper of say a drill press or milling machine (so you end up getting adapters or other arbors and then it becomes, often, a matter of convenience of how many chucks w arbors already set up you want to own or how often you want to go about changing chucks between various arbors).
I would also hazard a guess that is pretty common early on to purchase some adapters/bushings to move between Morse taper sizes, typically, again, getting one to adapt the headstock Morse taper down to the tail stock Morse taper size which allows you to use the same size centers at either end e.g.

To put my nose in where it likely doesn't belong...if that is the final resting place of the lathe, you may want to reconsider...if you ever have a need to put really long stock into the spindle bore you could be in for issues with that wall on the right...or if its not exterior, a hole with a flap

Edit: D'oh!!! my apologies Toxic, guess I can't tell my right from left...it was the headstock end that should be of concern as later posters stated; FYI, if you are in that situation there is an article in the Dec 11/Jan 12 issue of Machinist's Workshop about using an outboard bearing to reduce possibility of long stock whipping...

Toxic
01-14-2012, 10:24 AM
Welcome to the board. The "3MT" refers to the #3 Morse taper portion of the arbor that mates to the tail stock. The 33JT refers to the other end of the arbor the mates to the drill chuck. There are drill chuck tapers besides the 3JT. You probably will want a live or dead center for holding work at the tail stock rather than trying to use a drill chuck. Check out youtube "Tubalcain" for great information.

Thanks for the information. I do have both a live center and dead center. I meant to say that i need the drill chuck to accurately drill the center hole that they ride in...Tubalcain has been a great source for me as well in learning to run this lathe...I would guess i have 20 hours now of watching videos..Tubalcain's being some of the best ones..

Toxic
01-14-2012, 10:26 AM
The 3MT is the end that goes in the ram of the tailstock. The 33J is the end the chuck mounts on. What is important is that the chuck has the same mounting taper as the chuck end of the arbor.

I would go through the archives too read on how to mount the chuck on the arbor. There are lots of different "correct ways" to do this. My way is 1) clean the mating tapers with lacquer thinner or alcohol. 2) Warm the chuck to maybe 200F. 3) Chill the arbor in the fridge overnight (or if it is cold enough outside, leave it out overnight) 4) mate the warm chuck and the cold arbor. 4) With chuck open as far as it will go, place the chuck end down on a piece of wood and hit the end of the arbor one quick blow with a "dead blow" hammer.

If you are planning to turn between centers you will need the center drills. The set will allow you to work on larger and smaller diameter shafting.

Thank you for those tips..I wouldnt have guessed that the fit would be that tight requiering the freeze heat method..i have done it for bearing before so i understand that principle.

Toxic
01-14-2012, 10:31 AM
Russ. Thanks for the link. I also was concerned about where to put the lath but that is a good spot away from grinders etc..I can put a hole in the wall on the left but the right side is exterior. My biggest concern is that i may not be able to get a full size truck driveshaft to fit. BUT, i dont have a 4 jaw chuck(yet) or a steady rest(yet) for this machine and i figure if i get anything that absolutly needs another foot or so i can pick up one end and angle the machine to get it to fit..

That reminds me..Is there any type of steady rest i can buy that will be easy to modify to fit this machine or am i better making one from scratch?

gnm109
01-14-2012, 10:38 AM
Russ. Thanks for the link. I also was concerned about where to put the lath but that is a good spot away from grinders etc..I can put a hole in the wall on the left but the right side is exterior. My biggest concern is that i may not be able to get a full size truck driveshaft to fit. BUT, i dont have a 4 jaw chuck(yet) or a steady rest(yet) for this machine and i figure if i get anything that absolutly needs another foot or so i can pick up one end and angle the machine to get it to fit..

That reminds me..Is there any type of steady rest i can buy that will be easy to modify to fit this machine or am i better making one from scratch?


I would move the lathe 90 to the left so that longer stock could be used.

I've seen some homemade steady rests on this site....maybe you could do a search.

Good luck!

Pherdie
01-14-2012, 10:54 AM
I don't believe it's been mentioned, but some chucks come with the arbor (shaft) as in integral part of the chuck. Chucks of this type come in various arbor types (i.e." MT2, MT3, MT4, straight, etc.). The advantage is usually less chuck run out (alignment error). The down side is that if the arbor gets damaged, the entire chuck has to be replaced, as opposed to just the arbor.

Food for thought....

rohart
01-14-2012, 11:39 AM
I agree with gnm. Turn the lathe so it's on the left hand wall.

You rarely need extra space at the tailstock end unless you're doing some pretty sophisticated stuff.

You often need a few feet at the headstock end, both so you can have long stock sticking out of the left end of the spindle - but take care you don't run at high speed with thin stock, the whip can destroy things and people - and so you can get at the change wheels easily. You may want to read the number of teeth on your change wheels without having to dismount them.

Note that many new and secondhand chucks are sold on an arbor, so if you see an ad for a Jacobs No.34 chuck on an MT3, and there's no mention of the other taper, that's OK. You don't need to know it unless you want to split it and replace the arbor, and that's yet another story.

I recommend the old Jacobs ball bearing chucks, but don't get one that's too big. There are many 18N chucks sold off, but they're too big for most. The 14N is a nice size, but your lathe could probably handle the 16N - rare as hens' teeth, over here at any rate.

Get several centre drills - you'll break them before you master the technique. And get several 1/4 inch ones. They're generally the 'goto' size. The larger ones don;t break so often, and the smaller ones, well, they're only for small work. And my tuppence says get HSS rather than carbide.

Black_Moons
01-14-2012, 12:01 PM
Support the forum and get a SHINY!

http://www.glacern.com/drill_chucks
http://www.glacern.com/photos/drill_chucks_01.jpg

I got one for my mill, It will drill 1" holes in steel, without sliping, with just being hand tightened, and then not even require me to lock the spindle to remove the drill (Infact, unless I tighten the drill chuck signifigantly more then needed to drill, sometimes small drills will fall out just from the deacceleration of my mill when it stops!)

Even if it did get tight, they include a pin wrench for loosening the chuck (I have never even thought of using it, the chuck is so easy to open, But its nicely made and included free)

Runout was as low as I could expect the lame chunk of steel I used as a test bar to be round. The body is nickel plated to prevent rustmarks from handling (warning: the taper is NOT nickel plated! Keep oiled!)

Jaws are TiN coated for.. Extra hardness? Also adds more shiny, Who doesnt like gold jaws poking out from a shiny nickel chuck? I asked about them and apparently they improve griping by 'biting' more into the drill bit, and the sliperyness of TiN coating isent a problem.

Disclaimer: I do not work for Glacern, I am just a very happy customer. My ONLY disappointment with my Glacern drill chuck is I did not buy another for my lathe!

PS: I consider myself to be uber cheap and buy mainly the cheapest chinese tools. I have many cheap chinese chucks. I rarely ever buy anything 'quality', Yet I consider the $100+ glacern chuck to be worth every penny, And am unhappy with my cheap chinese chucks on my lathe, I wish I had another glacern!

Toxic
01-14-2012, 12:13 PM
I don't believe it's been mentioned, but some chucks come with the arbor (shaft) as in integral part of the chuck. Chucks of this type come in various arbor types (i.e." MT2, MT3, MT4, straight, etc.). The advantage is usually less chuck run out (alignment error). The down side is that if the arbor gets damaged, the entire chuck has to be replaced, as opposed to just the arbor.

Food for thought....

Ah..That is must be the case for the ebay link one..Learned quite abit from this thread..Almost feel confident enough to order some tooling now;)

Toxic
01-14-2012, 12:19 PM
Hey Black Moons.. I figure its gonna cost me a hundred bucks to get that grizzley from ebay so if this one does everything a drill chuck is suppose to do i have no problem supporting the forum..I will definitely check out the link..

edit..This would be the drill chuck i am after from the Glacern site Correct? MT3-DC500

As for turning the lathe..I did have it the other way against a long open wall but i found it just took too much floor space and i wasnt making good use of this corner..I can still get at the back cover fairly easy and i can drill a hole in the left wall to fitt long stock through from my " coffee/office room"..LOL My bigger concern was extra lenght on the tailstock end but from what i have read this isnt as important..

gnm109
01-14-2012, 12:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally Posted by Pherdie
I don't believe it's been mentioned, but some chucks come with the arbor (shaft) as in integral part of the chuck. Chucks of this type come in various arbor types (i.e." MT2, MT3, MT4, straight, etc.). The advantage is usually less chuck run out (alignment error). The down side is that if the arbor gets damaged, the entire chuck has to be replaced, as opposed to just the arbor.

Food for thought....



Quite true. If you search around on Google Groups and probably this and other machining sites there are many posts about those who are searching for the Holy Grail of drill chucks with zero runout. For most of the Chinese ones with separate MT or R8 to JT arbors you are doing well to get below .003 T.I.R.

I recently purchased a separate 5/8" Keyless drill chuck on eBay with a separate JT6 to R8 arbor. With a 3/8" dowel pin in it, it had about .003 T.I.R. I did some swapping of the removeable jaws and got it down to .0015 and that's probably the best it will do.

There are some units from other countries that will do under .001 but they are generally very expensive, as nice as that would be.

You will do better with an integral arbor as mentioned here by Pherdie.


.

LKeithR
01-14-2012, 01:34 PM
If you want to "buy Canadian" check out KBC Tools. They're a Canadian company that has moved into the States. Travers, on the other hand, is an American company that has started selling in Canada. Of course the products they sell often come from the same places...

http://www.kbctools.com/can/main.cfm

michigan doug
01-14-2012, 04:50 PM
The heating/freezing/shrinking method of mounting a chuck on a tapered arbor, is not because the fit is that tight or close. It's a taper. The chuck could slide right on with no effort at all, with no freezing/heating, all at room temperature.

But...

The heating/freezing/shrinking method will get the chuck on the arbor more securely, with less force and with less likelihood that the chuck will spin on the arbor under heavy loads.

Finest regards,

troy

sasquatch
01-14-2012, 04:52 PM
KBC tools are not originally a Canadian company.

KBC was started in Detroit by Karel Bas back in the 1960's i think.

This company has an interesting history.

I have bought a fair amount of tooling from KBC in Toronto and have nothing but praise for the way they do business, the staff,- both through emails and phone calls know what they are talking about and have bent over backwards in service to me.

I have no connection to KBC, just a satisfied customer who recommends them highly.

Shars who is well spoken for here often , must be just as good.

Andrew_D
01-14-2012, 05:13 PM
I'll give a thumbs-up to KBC as well. I usually shop at either KBC or Travers, but Travers has been a bit of a pain lately. Also, their prices are usually higher than KBC.

Andrew

Black Forest
01-14-2012, 05:35 PM
Not true if the intregal arbor breaks then you have to replace the whole chuck. On my Albrecht chucks I can just order the arbor and chuck body as a separate item. All the other parts mount up just fine. I have done that exact thing myself.

Pherdie
01-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Not true if the intregal arbor breaks then you have to replace the whole chuck. On my Albrecht chucks I can just order the arbor and chuck body as a separate item. All the other parts mount up just fine. I have done that exact thing myself.

I don't doubt that you could physically do the above, and I'm no expert in drill chucks, but it seems logical to me that a quality chuck, like an Albrecht (which I also own several of), would have the jaws ground in after assembly to provide maximum accuracy. Replacing something like a body only and not regrinding the jaws would possibly compromise that original accuracy?

Arthur.Marks
01-14-2012, 07:16 PM
Albrecht does it the no-nonsense way, but you pay for it ;) That is, they hold tolerances tight enough on their jaws that there is no "order" to them. You can place them into any of the three slots in any combination when new. Everything is interchangeable in that respect. Nothing will help you if the body is worn, of course, but new jaws will more often than not make an old Albrecht's hold TIR on par with new.

The point I think the original comment was regarding, though, was that a separate arbor and chuck body allows more room for mistakes. If you damage one part you can replace it. If arbor and chuck body are integral, you damage the whole thing. BUT REALLY, its all different horses for different courses. If you're doing something that knocks your arbor off your chuck body--whether integral or not, you're doing something wrong!

The most valid argument I am aware of for an integral shank is that it allows for a possibility of lower TIR by eliminating one layer of tolerance "stacking". It is also very inconvenient to "swap" arbors on the fly. Once you mate a drill chuck with an arbor, it will for all purposes stay that configuration. That makes the two types not very different at all in the end. The one good part if you are new in building up your workshop equipment, though, is that it allows you to change it based on your changing workshop/machinery. FWIW :D It's a drill chuck! No need to over-think it.

Toxic
01-14-2012, 08:51 PM
DANG..All i wanted to know was what drill chuck i need to order for my tail stock..I have definitely learned alot from this thread on the drill chuck subject. I think i will order a arbor and drill chuck from KBC. I dont think my skills are in the tolerance level required of the one piece chucks yet..LOL.. I will need some parting tools and HSS blanks to practice putting cutting edges on as well and if my order is over 200( which it more than likely will be) it is free shipping.:D

Again thanks for all the replys..

Jim Shaper
01-14-2012, 09:44 PM
I recommend the old Jacobs ball bearing chucks, but don't get one that's too big. There are many 18N chucks sold off, but they're too big for most. The 14N is a nice size, but your lathe could probably handle the 16N - rare as hens' teeth, over here at any rate.

Love my 18N's, especially for the tailstock - you can chuck up a big end mill and hog the hole for a boring bar without changing anything.

I actually have a small 0-1/4" chuck on a straight shank that I chuck up in the 18N when I need to hold something under 1/8".

justanengineer
01-15-2012, 10:28 AM
Albrecht does it the no-nonsense way, but you pay for it ;) That is, they hold tolerances tight enough on their jaws that there is no "order" to them. You can place them into any of the three slots in any combination when new. Everything is interchangeable in that respect. Nothing will help you if the body is worn, of course, but new jaws will more often than not make an old Albrecht's hold TIR on par with new.


Albrecht does not hold their tolerances any tighter, they use a completely different design than the standard Jacobs/knock off does. Their design uses a straight threaded rod pushing on three common jaws. If you compare this with the standard Jacobs, which uses tapered threads, you see the need for the Jacobs to use three unique jaws. If the Jacobs had the jaws mismatched in the slots, they would not close to a center. Which is more accurate? - Neither. I have had terrible Albrechts, great Jacobs, and vice versa. Albrechts do bring a premium at resale time tho.

http://www.machinistblog.com/wp-content/uploads/Albrecht3.jpg
Straight threads

http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/JacobsChuckRebuild.ashx
Tapered.

I would highly recommend to anyone that they keep their eyes open at yard sales/flea markets etc after they have the basics. I buy used Jacobs for <$5 for common sizes and <$10 for larger ones, bc you never can have too many.

I found a large (7/8?) Jacobs 8N(?) in my grandfather's shop a few years ago sticky with rust. I picked it up bc I liked that it had a completely knurled (diamond pattern) barrel on it, and being in that shop it could be 100+ yrs old easily. A quick clean up and oil, and it has less than a thou TIR.

bborr01
01-15-2012, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=Toxic] I believe the tailstock takes 3MT so i found this on ebay


Toxic,

I would not order anything until you can change the above statement to I am positive that the tailstock is a #3 Jacobs taper.

Also, I use mostly Jacobs superchucks and Albrechts. You can't go wrong with either (edit: as long as they have not been damaged) and as mentioned earlier they can sometimes be picked up used for a good price. I also would personally stick with a separate arbor/chuck setup. Just my personal preference.

Brian

Toxic
01-15-2012, 12:56 PM
I havent order anything yet but is there an easy way to tell which tamper the tail stock is? I am taking the sellers word that it is a MT3

dian
01-15-2012, 01:03 PM
"The most valid argument I am aware of for an integral shank is that it allows for a possibility of lower TIR by eliminating one layer of tolerance "stacking"."

well, think its the other way round. you rotate the stuff untill it runs true.

Andrew_D
01-15-2012, 01:46 PM
I havent order anything yet but is there an easy way to tell which tamper the tail stock is? I am taking the sellers word that it is a MT3

Well, you can try measuring the large end and compare that to a list of measurements for MT tapers.

Here's one such list...there are others out there as well:
http://www.loganact.com/tips/tapers.htm

The other (and sometimes easier) thins to do is use an MT3 anything and see if it matches. Do you have anything else in MT3? (Drill press perhaps? another lathe? milling machine?) Even if you have something that's an MT2, it would tell you whether it is in fact bigger than an MT2 or not....

Andrew

justanengineer
01-15-2012, 03:44 PM
If you have an adapter socket for adapting between tapers, they are sometimes labeled.

I have often thought of turning a set of taper "blanks" that I could then either attach to a large keychain or stash in a tool roll for evaluating machines away from home. This sounds like another good reason for something like this.

Toxic
01-15-2012, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the Link. I will bookmark that one..... o.938 large end of MT3 is what i measure on my tail stock.

Ian B
01-16-2012, 03:05 AM
Toxic,

Of all lathe tooling, a tailstock chuck's about the easiest to find and use. It's pretty certain that your lathe has a 3MT tailstock taper, buy any decent quality chuck and arbour taht takes your fancy. Some like them with keys to close them, some prefer the keyless. Take your pick.

Integral arbour? I think that 95% don't have that feature - separate arbours are very common, and - once fitted - won't cause problems.

You also mentioned parting off tools - now, there's a contentious area! HSS, insert carbide, right way up or upside-down, hand or power feed, tailstock centre support...

Good luck,

Ian

Toxic
01-16-2012, 09:32 AM
Yes there is quite a range in price for the cut-off tooling as well. I just wanted someting cheap to try so i am ordering a 1/2 inch holder and 1/2 HSS blade to try. I need to machine an anchor pin for the hydraulic cylinder of my woodsplitter and it is gonna be 1.25 inch dia with a bigger flange on one side and quick pin the the other... Might as well try it on the big stuff..

For those that wonder which direction i too on the chuck i appreciate all the info but i went with a heavy duty 1/2 inch LFA chuck and separte arbor. Largely cause it was avaiable and i needed other bits from KCB anyway.