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Horst
01-19-2012, 08:08 PM
I've got a cute little motor I want to use for a ceiling fan (0.41A). Problem is it's 230 volt. PITA to run to my main panel so what I'm thinking is scab one line each from two other circuits (obviously from different legs). I would use intermittent circuits like the garbage disposer and dishwasher. How bad an idea is this?

macona
01-19-2012, 08:22 PM
Bad idea.

Just get a small 120 to 240v autotransformer. 500VA would probably enough, 750 would be more than.

I have a 240v german metal halide light fixture that I use in my shop and I use a small transformer to run it.

Like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reversible-Autotransformer-V-110-220-VA-500-Hz-50-60-/220836861469?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item336ae7161d#ht_4598wt_1344

lakeside53
01-19-2012, 09:03 PM
Rearrange your panel breakers and use "half-size" breakers if you're out of space, or toss the motor.

mygrizzly1022
01-19-2012, 09:17 PM
Hi Horst

The following is well intended advice and not at all meant to be critical. I apologise in advance if it seems harsh as it is not meant to be.

I think if you have to ask that question you do not have sufficient grasp of the electrical trade to be messing with it. Electricity is something I know a fair bit about, and it has been my experience over many years is it is a field where a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing. When in doubt seek the services of a pro.

Regards …. Bert

Horst
01-19-2012, 09:38 PM
well, you are right (a little knowledge), and I think I have (sought advice) and yes, you were critical (while adding nothing useful). I will go the transformer route. Thank you

Arcane
01-19-2012, 11:49 PM
If you do as you propose and there is a fault, one breaker will open up and the other will likely remain in resulting in an energized conductor to the equipment which you will probably discover when you stick your fingers into when you start working on the electrical side of it. It also will be against any electrical codes that apply to your location.

Evan
01-19-2012, 11:56 PM
What sort of motor are you wanting to use? Is it an actual ceiling fan motor?

mickeyf
01-20-2012, 12:27 AM
Also, when your house burns down and the insurance company discovers that you had done non-code electrical work, the will rub their hands in glee at having a legitimate excuse not to pay. An then there's:


DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE
Not only will this kill you
but it will hurt really bay
while you're dying.

Evan
01-20-2012, 12:32 AM
The reason I ask about the motor is that ceiling fan motors are impedance protected. That means that they can be fully stalled without burning up. To pass UL certification they must be able to be fully stalled safely for 15 days.

Black_Moons
01-20-2012, 12:42 AM
you can not wire a 240v load between two independantly fused 120v circuits for many safty reasons, One being electrocuting whoever does work next on that circuit after turning the circuit off. Another being a fault won't trip both circuits, and you may end up with a brownout condition on the 'faulted' circuit that may damage equipment, Including potentialy causing fire hazards with other motors/loads, even if your fan motor is fully protected itself.

Evan
01-20-2012, 12:59 AM
Of course you can wire it that way but it is a very poor idea and illegal as well. It is also not a good idea to mount a motor directly below the ceiling that isn't inherently protected from bursting into flames in the event of a bearing problem.

However, if the fan motor is a regular ceiling fan motor it will run at about half speed on 120 vac without problems.

Horst
01-20-2012, 01:40 AM
Ok Thanks, I came to the right place.

Evan; No it is not a ceiling fan motor. It is from "Bodine Electric Company". I have seen these used with gear reductions.

Data Plate:
TYPE: NSI-13
VOLTS: 230
HZ: 50 PH: 1
A: 0.41 HP: 1/50
AMB: 40 INS: A1
TIME: Cont
RPM: 1425
I was going to mount the motor on the wall ans use shafting and gears to reduce rpm and power a 12" fan blade. I hadn't thought of the motor overheating. will the fact that it is a 50 HZ motor cause an issue? Will it run faster on 60 HZ?

Horst
01-20-2012, 09:41 AM
bumping thread

MaxHeadRoom
01-20-2012, 10:37 AM
will the fact that it is a 50 HZ motor cause an issue? Will it run faster on 60 HZ?

Approx 1740 rpm on 60hz, at a slightly lower current.
Max.

lakeside53
01-20-2012, 11:54 AM
The current drawn will of course depend on the loading from the fan. It would pay to measure the current to make sure you aren't overloading the motor. i.e. the fan / housing determines the motor load; too much and it will overheat. Err on the "less" side. Another way is to measure the running speed - aim for the 1740 (or more) rpm. You might find that your cannot drive the fan/gearbox you have unless it wasall part of the motor originally.

Evan
01-20-2012, 12:26 PM
That motor is rated for 50/60 hz and runs at 1500/1800 rpm. It requires a run capacitor of 5 uf and produces 22/20 oz inches of torque. It is not impedance protected. It is rated for continuous duty.

MaxHeadRoom
01-20-2012, 12:34 PM
Most small ceiling fan motors do not have 1 split phase caps, they have shading ring built in order to create the split phase.
Shaded pole motor.
It does not appear to be synchronous so it can never run at 1500/1800 but something below, as stated 1425 on 50hz.
Inductive reactance is higher on 60hz, hence lower current for a given rpm.
Max.

Evan
01-20-2012, 01:01 PM
1500/1800 are the manufacturers stated specs.

Nearly all ceiling fan motors use a multicapacitor with two values, usually 1 and 2 or 3 mfd. The fan has a run winding and an aux winding. The capacitors feed the aux winding and by switching in the capacitors in parallel high speed is obtained. Switching in either value alone produces medium and low speed. Reversing the run winding changes the direction.

MaxHeadRoom
01-20-2012, 01:30 PM
Well all the small ceiling vent fans in our building are shaded pole motors, this also includes the cooling fans in the welders running off of 1 ph.
BTW, this also includes the motors in the air exchanger, I know I just had to replace them recently.
Max.

Black_Moons
01-20-2012, 03:36 PM
No it is not a ceiling fan motor. It is from "Bodine Electric Company". I have seen these used with gear reductions.


Nuff said. Stop arguing over what ceiling fan motors need/use. its not applyable here.

MaxHeadRoom
01-20-2012, 04:11 PM
...........Alrighty then..:rolleyes:

lakeside53
01-20-2012, 04:30 PM
Ok Thanks, I came to the right place.

Evan; No it is not a ceiling fan motor. It is from "Bodine Electric Company". I have seen these used with gear reductions.

Data Plate:
TYPE: NSI-13
VOLTS: 230
HZ: 50 PH: 1
A: 0.41 HP: 1/50
AMB: 40 INS: A1
TIME: Cont
RPM: 1425
I was going to mount the motor on the wall ans use shafting and gears to reduce rpm and power a 12" fan blade. I hadn't thought of the motor overheating. will the fact that it is a 50 HZ motor cause an issue? Will it run faster on 60 HZ?


And it is a 1425 motor (1500 with slip)... so I concur with MHR's 17xx for 60hz

Evan
01-20-2012, 06:49 PM
The type of ceiling fan I am referring to are the ones with big paddle blades that hang from the ceiling. The types such as you find in a bathroom I call a ventilator fan as they are inset above the ceiling.

The Artful Bodger
01-20-2012, 08:14 PM
The type of ceiling fan I am referring to are the ones with big paddle blades that hang from the ceiling. The types such as you find in a bathroom I call a ventilator fan as they are inset above the ceiling.


So why not use the proper name and call them "punkahs"?

Evan
01-20-2012, 08:22 PM
Because nobody here would know what that means.

MaxHeadRoom
01-20-2012, 10:49 PM
But they were usually operated cheap by a Punkah Wallah;)
So I am told my memsahib who shall be obeyed.
Max.

The Artful Bodger
01-20-2012, 11:01 PM
Because nobody here would know what that means.

Eh what, this is not a 'nanny site', if they dont know what it means they can look it up, their education is not your responsibility...etc etc...:p

lakeside53
01-20-2012, 11:18 PM
The type of ceiling fan I am referring to are the ones with big paddle blades that hang from the ceiling. The types such as you find in a bathroom I call a ventilator fan as they are inset above the ceiling.


Maybe so, but the OP already said it wasn't one of those! Sometimes you have to read all the posts;)

darryl
01-20-2012, 11:22 PM
How about another possibility- maybe the motor can be made to run on 110. If there are two coils wired in series, you could re-wire them to be in parallel instead. You would have to be able to find a point where two wires connect, but go nowhere except to each other. Break that point, then measure resistance from one power lead to one of these wires, then measure from the other power lead to the other wire. If the resistance is substantially the same, chances are that you have found two separate coils. With this connection broken, there should be infinite resistance between the power leads. Now you're getting somewhere.

Also measure resistance between the broken connection wires. If it's infinite, then you wire one of those wires to the power lead that is shows infinite resistance to. Do the same with the other wire, which will mean hooking it up to the other power lead.

Now you have a 110 volt motor, drawing .82 amps- same power as before.

1-800miner
01-20-2012, 11:33 PM
Home depot is having a sale on fans!
39.95$:rolleyes:

Evan
01-20-2012, 11:44 PM
Maybe so, but the OP already said it wasn't one of those! Sometimes you have to read all the posts

He said he was building a ceiling fan. He did not say what sort of motor he had until I asked. He did NOT say he wasn't making a ceiling fan.

Ventilator fans aren't ceiling fans. They can be placed anywhere. Ceiling fans can only be placed on the ceiling.

Even though you may have read all the posts that does not guarantee comprehension.

Evan
01-20-2012, 11:58 PM
Eh what, this is not a 'nanny site', if they dont know what it means they can look it up, their education is not your responsibility...etc etc...

By "here" I mean Canada. We have three ceiling fans in our house. One is an original Hunter fan that cost $300 about 30 years ago. It is guaranteed to last as long as I do. It needs a squirt of oil about once per decade.

Horst
01-21-2012, 01:54 PM
The project was to build a "wall fan"
It had everything to do with style.

The originating circumstances were these;
a brutal winter with temperatures dropping below 40* at times (it's Southern California)
the fact that my entire house (all 800 sq. ft. of it) is heated by a small wall heater located in the 17' x 14' living room.
mounting an 8" Home Depot $12 fan on the wall above the heater at the ceiling and pointing into the room makes a big difference.
But it doesn't look good.

I do not want a traditional ceiling fan in the living room. Decent ones are expensive (too $ for me) and it conflicts with my décor.
I admire the mechanisms driving ornate ceiling fans in restaurants and wanted to duplicate that style of chains, belts and/or gears.

It has been great to consult with you all; here is what I've learned.
the motor I have will require its own circuit or an unsightly transformer and will probably be over taxed driving the inefficient kind of transmission I had in mind.
this could be a fire hazard
it will probably draw much more current than my existing set up.
it will require a greater investment in time and money than I am prepared to make.

I think I will leave this project on the drawing board.

Again, thank you.

MaxHeadRoom
01-21-2012, 02:01 PM
The originating circumstances were these;
a brutal winter with temperatures dropping below 40* at times (it's Southern California)
.

That IS brutal,:( Mind you it just dropped to -40 here overnight.
Don't bother converting it, its the same C or F.
Max.

The Artful Bodger
01-21-2012, 02:58 PM
I do not want a traditional ceiling fan in the living room. Decent ones are expensive (too $ for me) and it conflicts with my décor.
I admire the mechanisms driving ornate ceiling fans in restaurants and wanted to duplicate that style of chains, belts and/or gears.



I am sorry that you will not being advancing this project..:)