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Bill McLeod
01-20-2012, 01:57 PM
I just purchased 2 holders and a bunch of inserts from Grizzly, they are G7028 & 29. The odd part is how the holder retains the insert, it just sits on a peg. There is no screw or clamp. These looked to me to be a WN style in the catalouge but had no designation, I tried tech service before I ordered them but could not get any info from them so I figured just order and see what comes. I've seen them now and my first thought is to just send them back but I was curious if anybody has actually used them and what they think. They are dirt cheap so it's not a big deal one way or the other. To me cutting with them looks like a disaster in the making, I have never seen anything like it before. Comments appreciated.

winchman
01-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Well, at least you won't need to worry about the screw wearing out or getting lost.

One of the other links on the search page led to this:
http://www.atm-workshop.com/smithy1220xl.html

The relevant part:

"One particularly nice tooling addition I have made is the purchase of an indexable carbide lathe bit holder from Grizzly. Its part number in the Grizzly catalog is G7028 / G7029. I really like this holder and the inserts. It provides much better cutting action and finish than the traditional indexable tools sets sold by Smithy and others."

Maybe you should give them a try and report back.

Doozer
01-20-2012, 02:12 PM
Is the peg eccentric with hex key recess?

--Doozer

Bill McLeod
01-20-2012, 02:31 PM
It is not eccentric nor any hex feature, it has no features that would help the insert stay on, if you flip it over and give it a tap it will fall off.

Arbo
01-20-2012, 02:44 PM
read the manual...

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g7028_m.pdf

Bill McLeod
01-20-2012, 03:00 PM
Thanks that explains a fair bit now all need in something like a slot, or hex etc to get hold of to turn it, it's smooth on top and no flat or anything on the side more ideas?

PeteM
01-20-2012, 03:09 PM
These get adjusted from the bottom side. Check there. If your screw/cam doesn't have a hex/torx/screw adjustment, it missed a manufacturing operation.

Bill McLeod
01-20-2012, 03:25 PM
that makes sense just nothing there, I do appreciate the help I had not even thought of looking for directions, I'll see about a new screw one has the hex recess the one I had opened does not
THANKS AGAIN

Arcane
01-20-2012, 06:27 PM
that makes sense just nothing there, I do appreciate the help I had not even thought of looking for directions, I'll see about a new screw one has the hex recess the one I had opened does not
THANKS AGAIN

Welcome to the Man Club! :D

PixMan
01-20-2012, 08:46 PM
<snip> They are dirt cheap so it's not a big deal one way or the other. To me cutting with them looks like a disaster in the making, I have never seen anything like it before. Comments appreciated.

Wow. I'd never seen such a weak method of holding an insert. That is for very light cuts only.

A WNMG style insert is capable of turning and facing without changing the orientation of the holder because of it's 80 included angle. A quality holder would nest the insert along one full edge and at least a portion of a secondary edge, and use some sort of clamp to keep the insert snug against the surfaces of the pocket and the seat. To clamp like that invites the disaster you've correctly predicted.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_0887-r.jpg

Spend money once. Buy the good tools once, the first time...and they don't come from Grizzly.

Sorry if a bit harsh, but you did invite comments. ;)

bobw53
01-20-2012, 10:45 PM
SEND THEM BACK. I'm with Pixman, that is a disaster in the making.

I've never seen anything like that, the eccentric is pretty common, or at least used to be, but there was also a top clamp. The eccentric is mainly to seat the insert properly, not hold the whole damn insert in.

The newer stuff is like the one Pixman has up there, a bit of a premium, but one screw, and there is a nice spring under the clamp, as you tighten, it pulls the insert back and clamps it down, loosen and the clamp pops itself up. I like those holders A LOT. Probably get a good one for around $50, big plus if it has a carbide seat. You only need to buy it once.

PixMan
01-20-2012, 11:31 PM
Thanks for backing me up on this bobw53. Here's a different view where you can perhaps see the entire clamp and how it would pull the insert back and down.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_0886-r.jpg

These holders, and negative rake inserts in general, aren't the best thing for small lathes. There are many very sharp, positive top rake style inserts available that do negate the forces, but they're not usually available cheap. Then again, quality tools don't cost, they PAY.

If the machine is particularly low on HP, it might be best to look for a SWLCR 083 or similar holder for the good screw-down, positive rake WCMT/WCGT 32.5x size inserts. You'll only get three corners to use instead of six with the WMNG, but they might be the better choice depending upon the lathe.

beanbag
01-20-2012, 11:48 PM
Well, as long as the holder is threaded anyway, why not just use a screw and put a taper on the screw head?

wierdscience
01-21-2012, 10:10 AM
What you have is called a Pinloc insert system.They are availible from several different mfgs and are primarily used for light to medium finishing cuts.Nothing wrong with the system,they just aren't made for roughing or heavy interupted cuts.

http://www.directindustry.com/prod/sumitomo-electric-carbide/lathe-tool-holders-17449-536464.html

Look at the "Lathe toolholder Swiss"

PixMan
01-21-2012, 11:04 AM
wierdscience,

On that link you posted please notice that the Sumitomo holders are of high quality and have good hardware. Also notice that each of the Pin-Lock holders shown does use at least two of the insert's long edges to register the insert, except for the one holding a WNMG insert. That one has a top clamp. ;)

The Pin-Lock style holders are very popular in Germany and other areas of Europe, and are built in such a way that they are sturdy enough to use in heavy roughing applications. The difference in those made by reputable tooling companies is that of design, quality of materials, manufacturing tolerance. So much difference in fact that they are in some circles the preferred tool to use because heavy chips can't hammer the hardware normally there clamping the insert in.

We Americans haven't yet grasped the concept.

dian
01-21-2012, 12:07 PM
what is swiss about them? eccentric? no, low profile, probably.

lakeside53
01-21-2012, 12:07 PM
You can get the Seco WNMG holders bascially for free... more specifically, you pay for the holder and get 10 "free" inserts. Nice tooling.

Enco runs specials on these all the time - I have accumulated a few this way.

noah katz
01-25-2012, 03:07 AM
How do you find out about these specials?

I've been on Enco's email list for over a year and all I get are announcements of moderately discounted prices and/or free shipping - nothing likje the deal you described.

The inserts I just saw are $11 each!

PixMan
01-26-2012, 07:10 AM
An $11 insert is about mid-price for quality coated carbide, perhaps even a little lower than average. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.

Bill McLeod
01-26-2012, 10:52 AM
Well I tried the holders/inserts and they are junk, probably the worst insert setup I have ever used. The chip groove is a joke as is the rest of it. The guy said he like them might not have ever used decent inserts. They might do Ok on plastic.

lakeside53
01-26-2012, 12:06 PM
How do you find out about these specials?

I've been on Enco's email list for over a year and all I get are announcements of moderately discounted prices and/or free shipping - nothing likje the deal you described.

The inserts I just saw are $11 each!

They have been in every "Hot deals" catalog for a couple of years. If you don't get it in the email, you can find a link to it it on their main page - upper left.

Seco WNMG with 10 free inserts

http://www.useenco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=19&PMKANO=311&PARTPG=INLMPA&PMCTLG=01


And until 27th Jan, you can take another 15% off (for over $99)... Code JAN99R

platypus2020
01-26-2012, 03:57 PM
I have 3 of the Grizzly tool holders and 2 boring bars that use that system, left over from my Atlas lathe days. They worked okay, I've never lost an insert under operation, but as I moved up to a bigger lathe, I also moved up to better tooling. I definitely would never buy them again, knowing what I know now, but I do still find myself using one of them on small aluminum pieces, as I can get an almost mirror like finish, with it.

noah katz
01-26-2012, 06:45 PM
lakeside, thanks!

But just noticed that the smallest shank is 5/8".

I have BXA QCTP for 1/2; I don't think they'll fit, but I'll check tonight.

PixMan
01-26-2012, 06:52 PM
I went looking for what size shanks those G7029 & G7028 holder have. What a pain in the butt! It took WAY too long to figure out that it's some oddball 15/32" x 37/64". I take that to mean it's really a 12mm x God knows what.

Bill, what type of tool post do you have on your lathe, and what kind of work (materials) do you normally cut? How much speed and HP does your machine have? I really hate to see people spending money on tools that are inappropriate for the machine or the task when I know so much about carbide insert tooling and am willing to share it.

If your machine can take 5/8" shank tools, here's a holder to pick up. I also can find you some GOOD quality inserts for it with very upsharp, positive rake to be useful on a smaller, lower-HP lathe and match them to the materials.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Valenite-DWLNR-10-3B-General-Turning-Tool-Holder-RH-5-8-Shank-/130598130359?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item1e684152b7

The "Seco special" tool is the older top clamp style holder. There's nothing really wrong with it, but I see no sense in getting a holder with inserts that may not make anymore sense for your machine and work than the junky stuff from Grizzly.

EDIT: I see you have a BXA. Those take 5/8" shanks.

wierdscience
01-26-2012, 07:54 PM
wierdscience,

We Americans haven't yet grasped the concept.

We American's grasped it long ago,I've got Kennametal holders from decades agao that use it.

I'm well versed in Pin-loc,without a top clamp it isn't roughing anything unless it's plastic or wood.

If it were me I would send the holders back and replace them with TMX brand,more holder less money.Grizzly's holders are oddball and they're inserts are overpriced.

lakeside53
01-26-2012, 08:00 PM
The "Seco special" tool is the older top clamp style holder. There's nothing really wrong with it, but I see no sense in getting a holder with inserts that may not make anymore sense for your machine and work than the junky stuff from Grizzly.

EDIT: I see you have a BXA. Those take 5/8" shanks.


??? are you looking at the same model?

The Seco is an external top clamp AND bottom (or top) internal eccentic clamp... with separate anvil. it's a current model and works extremely well. I thoughly recommend them, and yes, they will fit the BXA.

You can also fit postive rake inserts to these holders. I have a lot of inserts from very fine positive "finishing" to "rip it off" negative rake roughers. I have a number (way to many) of different insert holders; primarily I use WNMG and then a little less frequenty DNMG.

PixMan
01-26-2012, 08:15 PM
I know they've been around a LONG time here, it's just that they never got very popular here because the pin assemblies weren't engineered for really heavy-duty turning. I used them too.

The newest pin-lock styles from Sandvik, Walter and a few others are actually built for roughing. No hardware protruding up on top makes for faster chip flow when plowing through steels at .600" depth of cut and .048" per rev feed rates. I know, because I've seen it. Absolutely unreal.

The newest designs are nice, using a pretty solid lever that's actuated by a heavy-duty screw with a groove in it. I tried to post a link to the exploded view of the newer style holders, but the Sandvik site doesn't have individual page links. I'm no good at the computer stuff at that level needed to get it posted.

PixMan
01-26-2012, 08:20 PM
??? are you looking at the same model?

The Seco is an external top clamp AND bottom (or top) internal eccentic clamp... with separate anvil. it's a current model and works extremely well. I thoughly recommend them, and yes, they will fit the BXA.

You can also fit postive rake inserts to these holders. I have a lot of inserts from very fine positive "finishing" to "rip it off" negative rake roughers. I have a number (way to many) of different insert holders; primarily I use WNMG and then a little less frequenty DNMG.

Yes, of course I'm looking at the one in your link, and I know there's an eccentric or cam lock screw there under the top clamp. The one on Ebay is the newer "single wrench" style that I rather like for that specific reason. No more trying to blow packed-in chips out of the tiny hex in the eccentric lock, no more needing two different wrenches to index/change an insert.

My comment about the inserts needs clarification: Without knowing what machine Bill has and it's speed and HP, I feel that getting ten negative rake steel-turning inserts may not be the best way to spend money. If he could grab the Ebay one for that price and a smaller number of "neg/pos" (negative rake inserts with a positive top rake) inserts might be the better way to go. MAYBE.

wierdscience
01-26-2012, 08:25 PM
http://www.kbctools.com/usa/Navigation/NavPDF.cfm?PDFPage=278

As an example look at item #s 6-805R-113 and 6-800r-113

Both are 5/8" shank TMX (Bison) toolholders.The first is a SDJCR/L10-3B toolholder which uses DCMT inserts which is a 55*diamond shape.

The other a SCLCR/L10-3B which uses CCMT inserts which is an 80* diamond shape.Both are $30ish ea and both will turn and face out of a shoulder.

Inserts can be found here cheaper than KBC-

http://www.carbidedepot.com/DynamicLanding.aspx?CategoryID=1

I run the 1/2 shank versions in my 9x20 at home,the boss's at work and the Hardinge DV-59 at work,so yes they can be ran in low HP mahines.

Hope you find this useful:)