PDA

View Full Version : Model Steam Donkey Engine



Pages : [1] 2

brian Rupnow
01-28-2012, 06:24 PM
Now that I have the capability to cut spur gears, (I just purchased a complete set of 24DP involute cutters and an arbor)I have been searching thru all of the Youtube postings of Steam Donkey engines, and decided that there are many different types and configurations of said engine. I think I would like to try building one myself, and of course I will post build drawings as I go along so that others may join in the fun if they wish. I don't have any experience with donkey engines, and I don't have one close at hand to run out and measure, but that probably isn't as large an issue as one would think. I have found a youtube video which I will post a link to, and it shows the one I may try to design/model/build. This much I understand---there is a double acting cylinder on each side. The crankshaft is actually a long pinion-shaft that reaches from side to side, and since the engine would have to be self starting, the crank throws will have to be 90 degrees out of phase. I know that the pinion and the very large gear are constantly in mesh, and that the big gear is fixed to the large winch shaft so that the winch shaft turns whenever the engine is turning. The winch itself is supported by bearings which "float" on the main winch shaft, and there is a clutch mechanism (which is explained very well in captain Gerrys article) that transmits torque from the main shaft to the winch drum. This clutch mechanism is operated by a manually engaged lever.---I think the lever and clutch mechanism only has to be at one end of the winch drum. I can't see any good reason that this engine would ever have to go into reverse, because when cable is pulled off the winch drum, the drum can "free-wheel" to play out the cable. Some of this type of Donkey engine was used in mine hoists, and consequently had a large ratchet and paul assembly, but I don't think that was needed on a Donkey that winched logs across the ground. Also, Jerry makes reference to an external band brake which gave him difficulty, and I'm kind of wondering why it was there. To the best of my knowledge, this type of winch only pulled, as you can not push with a wire cable. why then have a brake on it at all? I welcome all discussion, as I'm just getting my head into this thing now. I am not trying to steal any of Captain Gerrys thunder, as his post and machine are excellently done, and mine will be somwhat different. Comments and helpfull hints or theories please.----Brian Rupnow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM3qRcWmo-4&feature=player_embedded

brian Rupnow
01-28-2012, 06:25 PM
I have been setting here eyeing all of my models, and I keep going back to the Popcorn engine. It is such a smooth runner, and I already have it modelled and detailed. With a bore of 1/2" and a stroke of approximately 1" it is close to the right size. There is a potload of work in that crosshead guide, but it does work so well-----. I really like the shape of the cylinder, and it would be very easy to complete in right and left hand versions to make up a twin cylinder engine. I think I will stick with the single drum version, as per the video posted in my very first post, with an internal expanding clutch ala Captain Jerry, and an external band brake courtesy of yours truly. The flywheels would become much smaller, in fact virtually dissapear, but thats not such a big deal with a twin cylinder double acting engine with the crank throws offset 90 degrees. When I built the Popcorn engine, I was workingf from Stews early plans and converting them to British Imperial, however I got ahead of myself and forgot to "unmetricize" the crank throw, making for an very unususl stroke length of 0.984". If I use that engine as the basis for my Donkey, it would give me a chance to correct that.

millwrong
01-28-2012, 06:59 PM
I have little that might be construed as useful comments or hints, other than to express my amazement at your ability to develop, and complete the array of engines that you've made! My hat is off to you, and your time management skills! By the by, where did you settle on for purchasing your gear cutters and arbor?

brian Rupnow
01-28-2012, 07:07 PM
Bought them thru http://www.traverscanada.com/index.asp Good speedy service, reasonable quality parts.

duckman
01-28-2012, 07:11 PM
Brian PM sent.

Duffy
01-28-2012, 08:21 PM
Brian, there were quite a few variations on the donkeys, depending primarily on the size of the "show," the type of rig,and the size of the logs. With REALLY big stuff, there was a triple drum unit, as the haulback was so heavy, it had to be powered out to the limit of haul.
In Scotia, CA is the biggest donkey rig I have ever seen. The boiler must have been nearly 8 ft in diameter and 20 ft tall. this unit was used in hauling redwood, back when an 8 ft diameter log was nothing special.
I bought W. M. Harris's book from Village Press. It is a double drum unit with 1" cylinders. It is an excellent book and well worth the investment. He, unfortunately, used Stuart cylinders, and when I priced a pair, I nearly choked-160 quid, plus postage, for a pair of pokey little cylinders, covers and steam chests! ANYWAY, I am convinced that a DETERMINED DESIGN INJUNEAR could fabricate a pair from brass bar stock and a little silver solder. Oh and he bought the two gear sets, but YOU can cut your own:D .
By the way, in central Vancouver Island, "back in the days," a single "side" with a donkey setup, would clear a semicircle of 1200' radius. Back in 1963, I saw an abandoned donkey sled at Kelsey Bay. The "runners" were logs over 6' in diameter and perhaps 60' long. The spreaders were 2' square, mortised into the runners.
Good luck and keep us posted. Hint in advance: REALLY nice cable would be downrigger line-multistrand stainless and VERY flexible. That is NOT freshwater downrigger gear! Know anybody on the west coast?

portlandRon
01-28-2012, 08:51 PM
Here is a link to one being built that might give you some ideas.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9212.0

brian Rupnow
01-28-2012, 09:23 PM
Scale and proportion---Where do I start? Well, the stroke of my engine is going to be 1", so the crank throw will be 1/2". If you look at the "flywheel" end of the connecting rod in the video, you will see that where it connects to the "flywheel" is about 1/2 way between the center and the outside of the rim. That would make the "flywheel" 2" in diameter. The main large gear appears to be about twice the diameter of the flywheel, so that would make it 3 1/2" to 4" in diameter.The length of my cylinder is fixed, to accomodate the 1" of piston travel, and the distance from the end of the cylinder out to the end of the piston rod at full stroke is now established by the length of cylinder and the stroke. In the attached picture, there is only a slight gap between the front of the boiler and the flange of the drum, which is roughly the same diameter as the large gear. The center of the cylinder is just marginally on the far side of the boiler centerline. The position of the crankshaft relative to the position of the large gear wheel and winch will be established by the pitch diameters of the large gear and the much smaller pinion gear on the crankshaft which engages with it. In both the video and the attached picture, the boiler diameter is equal to or slightly smaller than the diameter of the large winch gear, which makes it roughly 3 1/2" in diameter. The overall width of things will be established by how tightly I can fit the cylinders and valve bodies to the sides of the boiler. That gives me enough information to start laying out the components. I will make a preliminary layout, then compare it to pictures and videos of old existing full size Donkey engines, and move things around until get a good visual match. Thats how i start a project like this.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/AUDELS-G2-HOISTS-07.jpg

Duffy
01-28-2012, 10:27 PM
Dont forget to allow for some boiler lagging, at least 1/4" thick.

gizmo2
01-29-2012, 12:15 AM
There's another youtube video that shows a hoist engine, posted by Stonyson, that might explain the extra brake. Not exactly a donkey engine, but also used for logging. Looks like they can pay out line off the drum by letting it freewheel, but control the speed with the brake. I couldn't tell if it was an external band or not.

Mcgyver
01-29-2012, 10:49 AM
Scale and proportion---Where do I start?

Studay a full size one, gotta be one kicking around somewhere within a few hours drive. Ask around with the crowd that participates in live steam shows, bet there's an owner who would welcome the attention. Take measuring tape, calipers, camera and note book.

+1 W. M. Harris's book from Village Press - its a very attractive engine imo.

Duffy
01-29-2012, 10:55 AM
Brian, I checked out Harris's design, which is predicated on a 2X1" DA engine.
The finished product is 23.75"H x 18"L x 11.25"W and runs at 100psi. He does not seem to have any superheat, so I guess it drips a while to heat everything.
The cable drums are about 4"D x 3.5"L. This is a BIG project. Be advised that every well driller does not have 5" tube for a boiler shell-you may have to search a bit.

brian Rupnow
01-29-2012, 02:15 PM
Okay guys---This is sorta, kinda, it. Overall proportions are going to be very close to this. Length of winch drum may grow a little, and I definitly have to come up with a main base. I will probably come up with some other kind of crosshead guide, but the jury is out on that for right now. Thats a 90 tooth gear on there, which works out to about 3.83" diameter. Overall, I don't think it looks too bad.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/FULLASSEMBLYDONKEY-DRAWING.jpg

sasquatch
01-29-2012, 08:16 PM
Brian, i could be wrong,, but i think there was a donkey engine at the Algonquin Park museum???
Remember a story about an old retired forester that finally found it grown over at a lumber camp.
May have been Brent Connelly who has a few books out about logging in eastern Ont.

brian Rupnow
01-29-2012, 08:37 PM
Sasquatch--I've seen the one at Algonquin park, but its been quite a few years now. I think they have an Alligator on display there too in the logging exhibit.

oil mac
01-30-2012, 12:04 PM
Brian,
When i was a youngster, i worked in the coalmines, we had various types of haulage winches eight of the collieries had monster endless rope haulages One steam driven , & other seven electrically driven - If everyone is wondering what that is, ,Imagine a long rope spliced into its own tail, Like a big elastic band On this type of haulage set up, the rope was looped twice round a narrow wheel called a Clifton Wheel, which was on its periphery, comprised of sections of chilled iron sections to resist wear

Now my reason for mentioning this type of machine, which is on the periphery of the technology Brian is talking about is the following-- These big engines had a ratchet around the drum periphery, as a holding medium incase of the driver being belled to stop winding especially with a very heavily loaded rope, a run back, could have resulted in the deaths of men further down the haulage incline
Also in spite of the control being by electric motor drive, a friction clutch could be flung out of engagement,quicker than working an electric controller The old drivers of these big engines, could disengage the clutch drop the ratchet in &apply the band brake in a small part of the wheels travel
In the case of having to reverse for any special reason , the driver, could use the engine &the band brake most skillfully

Now back to something more resembling the nice machines Brian is talking of making a model of, Two drum haulage gear, As youngsters, we were taught how to operate small versions of A)single drum, & B) two drum haulages (WE call 2 drum haulages in the U K main & tail haulages) For a few weeks i was given a special dispensation from on high to operate a twenty five horse power haulage Usually a kid of under 19 years of age was restricted to a 10horse power single drum winch

The operation of the main &tail haulages is good fun & a nice task, They are used for pulling tubs or bogies of coal etc over long undulating roads, where the rake or cluster of tubs, or as we called them hutches, could run away on an incline, & the rear ones would derail the ones nearer the front of the line

In this system, There is a main drive shaft upon which two drums revolve. One of either, which is allowed to run free,in contra direction to its neighbour, One always being clutched in to this drive shaft, depending upon which direction you were going, E.G.-- paying out say with the left drum, & returning with the right hand drum, or vice versa, depending upon your signal how you set your clutch, It was then the use of the application of the brake on the "Freewheeling drum was applied, A light application of the brake on the path ,was all that was applied to keep a slight tension on your tail rope

The clutches were generally expanding ring clutches I would expect for the single drum windlasses that You allude to Brian, lowering will be carefully controlled by the application of the brake &the driving engines.

good luck, with your model, it looks a nice project, and a model of some of these old American haulage engines looks really nice, From the photographs i have seen, they look good solid machines, well made

Just before i was born, for a spell, my dad operated a steam haulage engine in a small mine, & my maternal grandfather and his dad had in their day operated big winding engines, One of my pals has just given up his factory, which built steam &electric windlasses , Guess being intrested in these things is in my genetic makeup

brian Rupnow
01-30-2012, 09:13 PM
I don't usually do this much "flippin and floppin'" when I first get involved in a design, but its taken a lot of rearranging and moving things about to end up with a model that is pleasing to my eye, allows access to the valve boxes, and more or less resembles one of the original donkeys. I think that a lot of the eye appeal in this model is in the bearing stands and the base, so I have spent quite a bit of time on them. I have altered the crosshead guides a bit and put on a couple of rather nifty looking stanchions to support the outboard end of them. You will never wander down an old logging road and see one quite like this, but then again, this is not intended to be an exact model. This is a model that captures the essence of the old steam donkeys, and will have a functioning winch, clutch, and brake mechanism.----But will still be within the capability range of mid range skilled model engineers.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/FULLASSEMBLYDONKEY-DRAWING-2.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 07:53 AM
Here we have it in all its naked glory, without the engines and boiler.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYWITHOUTENGINESANDBOILER.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 12:29 PM
Now, for all of you guys that are setting around bored, suffering from mid winter blues, and just dying to begin a new project------. These are all drawings for the Donkey engine that I know are correct and won't change. How do I know?---Because they are the exact same drawings I used to build the Popcorn engine, and it runs extremely well. There are going to be some drawings that I have yet to develop, and actually make the parts before I will turn them loose on an unsuspecting public, but these ones I am certain of.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYSTEAMCHESTCOVER.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYSLIDEVALVERODEND.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYREARCYLINDERCOVER.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 12:32 PM
And here's another bunch of Donkey parts---
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYPISTON.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYPISTONROD.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYGLANDNUTFORSTEAMCHEST.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 12:34 PM
And more---Damn, there's a lot of parts to a Donkey!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYGLANDNUTFORPISTON.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYFRONTCYLINDERCOVER.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 12:36 PM
And my last bit of Donkey Doo for today---
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYECCENTRICSTRAP-1.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYECCENTRICRODEND.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCROSSHEAD.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCONNECTORPN.jpg

Dave S.
01-31-2012, 12:41 PM
Brian

Here is a scan from the 1925 Willamette Iron and Steel Works catalog of there donkey engines. This scan shows the drum cross section and shows the clutch set up.

Dave

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q3/Dave_Sohlstrom/scan0001-1.jpg

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 01:20 PM
Thank you Dave S.---That helps.---Brian

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 03:46 PM
My nice long design contract across town is limping to an end. The design work is all finished and I'm just waiting for all the various machined parts and weldments to be completed and brought "in house" so I can supervise/orchestrate the final assembly of the machine. In the meantime, I get to spend quite a bit of time at home, and consequently get to spend day time hours designing my toys. In a way I am covering new ground here, as I have never completely designed a steam chest and slide valve on my own. On all of my previous steam engines I have copied other peoples designs. This time, using the original Popcorn design by Stew Hart as a starting point, I am changing port sizes and eccentric travels, and a host of other related items. I haven't posted drawings of any of these changed items, because I first have to convince myself that the changes I have made will work properly. I'm off now to the bank to pick up a wheelbarrow full of money to buy brass at my local metal suppliers. :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYWITHFANCYFLYWHEELS.jpg

oil mac
01-31-2012, 06:16 PM
Brian,
The late Edgar T. Westbury, designed a basic little steam engine called a Theseus, This engine was completely fabricated & his method of building up the cylinder block was most simple & easy to do, A friend of mine is starting up model engineering for the first time, And both he and i are going to have a go at it, We have already started

The series was serialised in the Model Engineer from 1st. November1956 It is a little 3/4" bore cylinder I have looked out the material to make the cylinders In our case cast -iron, But EdgarT W. sweated them up out of brass bar and some brass plate for the valve port face, & 3/8" brass plate for the steam chest
I have noticed recently the costs of Stuart Turners castings are too high at least for anyone retired

brian Rupnow
01-31-2012, 07:01 PM
Oil Mac----I have had really good results making all of my engines from "bar stock". I use either brass cylinders and an aluminum piston, or an aluminum cylinder and a brass piston----they seem to run very well together. Of course, I am running my engines on air, not steam. I have been advised against using a brass piston because of the inertial mass, but these small engines rev so slowly that I haven't found it to be a problem.---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-01-2012, 01:23 PM
I have been studying Captain Jerry's clutch mechanism which he came up with for his Donkey engine build. It is indeed a clever mechanism, and there are some vitally important parts that simply don't show up or get mentioned in his posts. I have wore my "engineer detective" hat all morning, and I'm pretty sure I have sussed out how Jerry did it. I am going to post a drawing and a few solid models to show how I believe this clutch works.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCLUTCHSHOWANDTELL.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-01-2012, 01:34 PM
These two models show the components inside the clutch. Of course that purple shaft with the round knob on it which I called an "activation pin" is in there only for "show and tell". In reality it will be a short pin operated by a hand lever to engage and disengage the clutch. There will also be a spring under that sliding hub which under normal circumstances will hold the sliding hub away from the winch so that the clutch shoes don't constantly "drag" on the inside of the winch drum. I will post more about that lever as my design progresses.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCLUTCHSHOWANDTELL-model.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCLUTCHSHOWANDTELL-exploded.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-01-2012, 02:34 PM
Well there!!! Thats another 6 hours out of my life that I won't get back.----Modelling clutches. The models do look great, don't they.--Can't really take credit for the design though. Captain Jerry did a remarkable job on coming up with this clutch in his original Donkey post.--I just had to do a bit of detective work to figure out what he'd done. Thats enough for now. I'm off to my metal supplier with a barrow full of money to buy brass.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/FULLASSEMBLYDONKEYWITHCLUTCH.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-01-2012, 04:10 PM
And that, my friends, represents $260 of the finest Canadian dollars!!! I struggled up to the "Pay" counter with all my bits and pieces and damn near fell down dead when the clerk toted up the price. I had stopped at the bank yesterday and got out $100 thinking that would cover it. Now I know why I keep taking design contracts even though I am 65 and theoretically retired. I'm just like a junky, working to support my habit.----There---Now that I've had my little hissy fit for the day---That much money for what will probably be 2 or 3 months entertainment for me probably is justifiable.---Just makes me wish I'd been born rich instead of good looking!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/MATERIALFORDONKEY001.jpg

oil mac
02-01-2012, 05:25 PM
Hi Brian,
Some years back i built two of the little Stuart Turner engines, The 10v & 10h both had brass pistons, they both worked well The pistons are only 3/4" dia I ran them at approx 100 r.p.m. max, I never found any problems with inertia

I cannot understand folk running their engines till the motion work becomes a blur, battering the engine to death, What is the point? After all their big sisters were not built to go like a bat out of hell Recently i repaired two small engines for a friend of mine Both had brass cylinders, they run on steam at 30 P.S.I. maximum , Not any superheat lots of water in the steam ( These were very old victorian engines)
Working an engine with a brass cylinder on a higher pressure would give me cause for concern, as to the possibility of dezincification of the brass, higher than that i would want bronze or cast iron
The cost of material nowadays is terrible, it is putting an end to a lot of folks hobbies, I feel the modern metal merchants in the present era are "all Heart"
Recently i came across a real case of profiteering , I went to a merchant for 3/8" aluminium rod x 10ft long -- (2 Lengths) to manufacture a special curtain rod for the church, I was quoted £35 +value added tax, I thought that was extortionate, I went to our local B&Q store 5 lengths of 3/8" dia steel tube, For which i turned three little brass joint pieces, this did the same job total £15

It is marvellous nowadays when the metal merchants all are taking up a keen intrest in home hobby work-- Worse Luck!:mad:

brian Rupnow
02-02-2012, 02:28 PM
For those of you who like to see "in process" shots, this is the way I start the cylinders. I am machining them from 1 1/4" square stock. I cut them 1/2" longer than I really need, machine the overall rectangular shape to size, and cut away any material that is parallel to the sides. Whats left get set up in the vice, checked for being "true and level" and then I drill and ream the 1/2" bores in place. (When I set them up I had a 3/8" parallel setting under them to provide drill clearance when the drill breaks thru the bottom of them). Still in the same set-up I drill the 4 holes in each one which will be tapped to hold the end caps on, drill the steam gallery that goes thru to the near side port, and mill away some material between this steam gallery and the cylinder so that steam can flow from the gallery into the cylinder when the end cap is bolted in place.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCYL-1002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-02-2012, 06:31 PM
Now,----You were wondering why I cut the material for the cylinders 1/2" too long, weren't you. Well, I needed to make some handles for them---and the handles are absolutely not allowed to rotate in the cylinders. After I made up a couple of handles from round scrap (Turned to 1/2" dia. to fit the cylinder bores.), I cross-drilled through that extra half inch of material at the end and put a 3/16" split pin thru both peices to hold the handles in the cylinders. I stuck the handles into my lathe and took a clean-up pass across the face of each cylinder. This makes certain that the end face of the cylinder is perpendicular to the bore. I then set my vernier caliper to the cylinder length I actually want to end up with and scribed both cylinders in the area where the red layout dye is. Why did I need handles?---It will all become clear in my next post.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/cylinderswithhandles003.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-02-2012, 07:24 PM
And now you know what the handle was for!!! (If you followed my popcorn thread, then you have already seen this done). It works so neat!! Next thing I will do is set it back up in the lathe and part the cylinder off to the correct length.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CYLINDERPROFILING002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-03-2012, 07:03 PM
No progress today. Had to make what seemed like a terribly long drive over to western Ontario to Brussels and see a customer. It was only 360 Km round trip (225 miles) and I did get a new contract, but it was a grey dismal day and I didn't sleep much last night. I would much rather have been tucked up in my nice little machine shop finishing off Donkey cylinders instead, but I've got to do something to keep money flowing so I can keep buying tools and pay for brass!!!:eek: :eek: ---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-04-2012, 11:09 AM
Hubba Hubba -Ding Ding--Lookit the profile on that thing!!!! ::) ::)
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/cylinderprofile001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-04-2012, 07:05 PM
Tonight we have a pair of finished cylinders, and a pair of "steam chests to be". Tomorrow I will finish the steam chests and maybe carve out some cylinder end caps. Of course the wisest thing would be to finish one cylinder assembly completely and see if my maiden voyage into port design works out okay---However, faint heart never won fair lady, and its easier to make two of everything as I go along.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/finishedcylinders001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-04-2012, 08:36 PM
Who knows if these Donkey type engines had cladding on the boiler? Any videos I have ever seen of the real ones just show a smoke blackened boiler, I've never seen one with cladding.---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-04-2012, 08:36 PM
Jeez, I'm full of questions tonight. Where does one go to get miniature brass or black iron pipe elbows? I'm thinking something that would be suitable for use on a "pipe" about 3/16" or 5mm in diameter. If I do this donkey up the way I'd like to, I want to have the steam pipes from the boiler to the cylinders to make it look authentic. As I'm setting here typing this, I'm thinking "Probably the Model railroad guys have a source for this stuff.----God knows there was enough pipe and elbows on the old steam locomotives."

brian Rupnow
02-04-2012, 08:48 PM
Thanks Joe---That looks like it would be just the ticket!! Here's a link to their website----Some mighty interesting stuff.----Brian
http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/product.php?productid=3273&cat=41&page=1

brian Rupnow
02-05-2012, 11:43 AM
Here is steamchest #1 well on its way to "becoming" both in the milling machine and trial fitted to the cylinder.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/donkeysteamchest001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/donkeysteamchest005.jpg

Dave S.
02-05-2012, 12:17 PM
Brian

Every donkey engine I have looked at here in the PNW did not have any boiler lagging.

Here is what your engine will look like when finished and aged.

Dave

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q3/Dave_Sohlstrom/DSC_0027.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-05-2012, 03:56 PM
Okay---One steamchest finished!!! That means its nap time.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/steamchestfinished-2002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-05-2012, 06:18 PM
This evenings offering is a gaggle of cylinder end caps. The diameters come out fairly good. The finished thickness of the end caps though, thats another story. According to the drawing they are supposed to all be 0.197" thick. I have one at 0.208, one at 0.203, one at 0.216,and one at 0.178!!!! It is plain that my methodology for turning steps to a finite length could use a whole lot of improvement!!! This is not a particularly critical measurement, and its one of those things where if its not visibly different, it doesn't really matter. The one undersized one is a rod end cap, and I'll have to thin out the other rod end cap to match it, but at least no one will notice and it isn't the kind of thing that demands remaking a part. The chatter marks you see are a direct result of machining with my cut-off tool, which is the only damn thing I have for plunging into round stock and ending up with a square corner. Again though, those chatter marks will be hidden inside the crosshead tube. Its a bit like that old army song "But my socks don't show, and the Sarge don't know, about my dirty undies!!"---I continuously strive to make more uniform and better toleranced parts, as I learn this machining game. I have improved in a lot of areas, not so much in others. I WILL try harder!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/endcaps-1001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-06-2012, 07:53 PM
One cylinder is almost complete. I have to order a box of shorter bolts tomorrow, but at least all the holes line up. (Which is always a great relief to me)!!!--My real job is interfering with my play job, so I didn't get much done today.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/onecylinderdone001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-07-2012, 08:28 AM
I'm old but I do have the odd trick up my sleeve. This is how I trued the end caps up in a secondary operation. I found a short piece of black iron pipe and couneterbored the end for a light press fit of the disc o.d. The cbore was shallow enough the half the face thickness stuck out past the end of the pipe. This let me "true" all the thicknesses and adjust any diameters I needed to adjust.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/dedicatedchuck001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-07-2012, 07:54 PM
Progress was made in leaps and bounds today!!! If the Lords willing and the creek don't rise, I might actually get to make a piston and rod and try one of these cylinders out tomorrow. I REALLY hope they perform as expected.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/pairofcylinders001.jpg

DFMiller
02-07-2012, 08:29 PM
Very nice.
Ernie (Dockrat) will be getting very jealous with all the brass.

Dave

sasquatch
02-07-2012, 08:32 PM
Looking good Brian,, and thanks for always posting your'e step by step builds!!

Thoroughly enjoyed and interesting photos.

brian Rupnow
02-08-2012, 10:41 AM
Here we are, right into the messy end of the business!!! Last night before going to bed I made up the 3/16" diameter cold rolled piston rods and threaded both ends. Then I turned the cylinders to 9/16" diameter and drilled and tapped them in the lathe, then parted them off from a piece of 3/4" aluminum round rod. I coated the threaded end of the piston rod with 638 Loctite and screwed the pistons onto the rods as far as they would go---even gripped them lightly with my pliers and made sure they were tight against the end of the tread. These sat up overnite under a 100 watt bulb, and this morning the Loctite was fully cured. Then each piston and rod assembly went back into the lathe, the rod in the chuck, and the piston was Oh so carefully turned to 0.500 dia. This is a very delicate turning operation. 0.001 too much left on the diameter,and they won't go into the cylinder bores. -------.001 too much taken of the piston and the damn things fall into the bores. What you see in the picture is the messy business of lapping. Even though the piston will (theoretically) fit into the 1/2" reamed bores, there will still be "tight spots" over the length of the piston travel that must be addressed. To do this, the piston is coaed with 600 grit lapping compound and gently worked from end to end of the cylinder. I find that what works best for me is to set the cylinder on my desk top where I can hold it firmly with one hand, while lifting and lowering the piston rod full stroke, like an old "dash churn" and revolving it about 5 degrees (finger estimate) between plunges. (Not during the plunge) I do this 50 strokes on each cylinder and piston assembly.---And note that when you have a twin like I do, once the lapping is completed, the piston is "dedicated" to the cylinder it was lapped in---don't mix them up after this step!! Next step will be to do a complete and carefull Varsol wash of the cylinders and the piston assemblys to clear out any remaining lapping compound.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/lappingcylinders001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-08-2012, 01:35 PM
And yes, virginia, we do recycle the offcuts. and then we even recycle the offcuts from the offcuts!!! With the cost of brass climbing to absolutely insane prices, I would even recycle the chips if I could just find a way to hold them.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/offcuts001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-08-2012, 03:54 PM
Finally, by what I see is almost the end of the day, my reclaimed offcuts have magically turned into a nice set of valve cover plates.---(Resting on a much used and abused 1/4" parallel). That about does it for the physical build of the cylinders. Next up are a full set of fabricated gaskets, disassembly, reassembly, and a quiet prayer.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/valvecovers001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-08-2012, 04:22 PM
Tomorrow I have to work at one of my "real" jobs (The kind I get paid for). When I do get back to this engine to disassemble it and put in the gaskets, I will put the holes in the steamchests for the incoming steam.---and as someone was concerned about, this will make the cylinders right and left hand assemblies. I could keep both steam chests the same by having the steam enter at the end opposite the control rod, but I think I want to have it enter from the top, same as in the very first video in this thread.--I want to keep my plumbing the same. The walls on the steamchests are thick enough to drill and tap for my fittings that I will be using.

sasquatch
02-08-2012, 06:07 PM
Once again the "Rupnow" talents are showing success!!!:D

brian Rupnow
02-08-2012, 06:17 PM
A big thank you goes out to the gentleman from Indiana who sent me the brake details. I could have sussed something out on my own, but seeing how others approached the task makes it a lot easier for me.-----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-08-2012, 09:11 PM
This is the one part of making model engines that never seems to get any easier.---Making gaskets!! I have made up a number of dedicated weapons to help me in this quest, but its still a pain in the butt. Yes, printing them off at 1:1 scale does help if you use a light colored gasket material that you're not afraid to put thru your printer, but its not THAT MUCH better than the old "Trace around with a pencil" trick. The difficulty lays more in cutting them out and not having them tear out at the very narrow margins between bolt holes, pressure gallerys, and outside (as in atmosphere). Oh, I get it done-----it just takes time. I have tried all of the different blends of gasket goo, but my engines are generally apart 5 or 6 times before they go together to stay, and that instant gasket stuff doesn't like that too much, and its very difficult to keep the damn stuff out of places that you don't want it. The gasket material I use is about .025" thick, and is very forgiving if you have to disassemble something a few times to tweak it.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/GASKETS002.jpg

gizmo2
02-08-2012, 09:54 PM
Gaskets! I take them to my buddy that runs a laser. So I don't know exactly what it would cost, but not much I guess. And a second set would be even cheaper, once the artwork is in his can. Just a thought!

sid pileski
02-08-2012, 10:40 PM
Brian- I've built a few engines, gas and steam. I use file folder for gaskets.
Cut it to 8.5 x 11, run it through my HP8500. No issue. I use an exacto knife for the straight cuts or scissors. Sharpen brass tubing to cut the holes, or a punch set.
Works good, gaskets are certainly reusable.


Sid

Duffy
02-08-2012, 10:46 PM
Brian, another thought for gaskets is brown paper from a large grocery bag. Oil it if you wish. I believe the "usual susprcts" from Model Engineering referred to it frequently.

JCHannum
02-09-2012, 07:44 AM
Oiled brown paper as per Duffy works well, as does onion skin typing paper. (Do they make that any More?)

For myself, for most models, steam and IC, I use hi-temp silicon. I have a tube of Permatex Ultra Grey that has lasted me for several engines. It takes very little, is easy to dismantle and reapply when needed and does not compromise dimensions when assembled.

loose nut
02-09-2012, 07:20 PM
I haven't seen a brown paper bag for years, do the plastic one work OK.:D

sasquatch
02-09-2012, 07:50 PM
Loose nut, geez i thought everyone of us packrats had a bunch of brown paper bags stashed away!!
I always keep them, never know when one might need a paper pattern or such.

EddyCurr
02-09-2012, 11:20 PM
I have a 30" wide roll of 80 lb Kraft paper purchased for lining drawers.
It serves double-duty as gasket material on occasion.

I also have a roll of 60 lb floor paper which seems considerably heavier
than the 80 lb Kraft.

.

brian Rupnow
02-10-2012, 09:12 PM
Got home tonight from one of my "real" jobs, and decided that I simply HAD TO come up with some steam inlet pipes to try these cylinders out!!! I looked at using 3/16" diameter brass tubing, but was kind of underwhelmed by how it looked. I modelled them and tried them on in the model, and somehow they just looked too small in diameter. I have a bunch of 1/2" brass hex rod that a good friend gave me, so I turned some of it to 1/4" diameter and drilled it out to 1/8" i.d.. I threaded one end to 1/4"-28 and then mounted the cylinders to a dummy baseplate and drilled and tapped the steamchests while everything was assembled (of course I had removed the valve slider and rod). I did this to ensure that the steam inlet tubes were absolutely verical. I didn't want them to "lean" in any direction when assembled to the final baseplate. Tomorrow I will install all the gaskets and see if it flies.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/STEAMINLETPIPES001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-11-2012, 11:09 AM
This morning I have GREAT NEWS for all who are watching this thread. The port modifications that i made worked good, and both cylinders respond excellently to the action of the valve. Now I am free to go ahead and build the rest of the engine, without having to worry about putting a lot of work into a project and then having it fail because the new port design wouldn't let the engines run.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/th_cylinderansvalveoperation.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/?action=view&current=cylinderansvalveoperation.mp4)

brian Rupnow
02-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Now that I have convinced myself that the changes I made to the cylinder porting does indeed work, I can now go ahead and post those drawings which were affected by my changes.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCYLINDER.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/SLIDEVALVEFORDONKEYENGINE.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYSTEAMCHEST.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYSLIDEVALVENUT.jpg

Black Forest
02-11-2012, 12:08 PM
Brian, Of all the projects I have followed that you have shared with us I like this one the most.

Very interesting build and a great job on your part.

Thumbs up!

brian Rupnow
02-11-2012, 04:19 PM
Well there!!! Thats enough machine shop magic for me today. Tomorrow I will carve out the sides of the crosshead guide tubes for that "Oh so cool" look. Now---Concerning the ports.---I wanted this cylinder to be buildable without having to buy metric endmills. I have accomplished that. Does it work?---Well, it certainly works in the video. Is the throw on my cam going to be sufficient unto the task?---Well, I think so, but no, I'm not 100% sure, untill I've seen it run on its own. Did I apply a lot of scientific principles when designing this change?---No, not really. I seen what Stu had done, and it worked succesfully. I seen what a couple of other folks had done, and theirs worked succesfully. I made some block diagrams and seen what ports were covered and uncovered at different times in the cycle. I used some of Stu Harts math. I crossed my fingers and buried a black cat in my backyard at midnight. If the worst thing that happens is that I have to make a second cam because the first one I designed doesn't work (Which I doubt will happen), it won't be the end of the world. I'm not exactly certain what type of mania made me make the center port longer than the ones on each side, but i think it was the old "adjustable centerline" that got me. I would probably look at that a little more closely the next time. Hey, I'm happy!!! it works.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADGUIDES002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Black Forest----I'm glad you're enjoying my posts about the donkey engine. If I'd known you were going to look, maybe I'd have called it a RAM engine!!!:eek: :eek: I enjoy building these things and posting about them, and I really do like it when somebody takes time to say Hi. I know people are looking----I can see the number of "hits" on the counter. Thanks for dropping in.----Brian

Mister ED
02-11-2012, 08:28 PM
I know people are looking----I can see the number of "hits" on the counter. Thanks for dropping in.----Brian
Oh ... we're here.:) For this newbie, your posts have been great. I have a hard time visualizing prints/plans into the real deal. Your posts certianly help with that. Found myself flipping back and fourth between pics and drawings a little earlier today.

Keep up the great work and posts.

Toolguy
02-11-2012, 08:44 PM
Hi Brian-

I watched the video about pushing the rod in and out, but I'm not getting what moves the piston rod when you move the valve. I don't think they are mechanically linked together. I could see if there was pressure or vacuum and one moved in while the other moved out. It seems counterintuitive for them to both go in or out at the same time. How does that work?
Great job on the build - thanks for sharing with the rest of us!
Edit to add - it looks like you have air pressure going to the valve - I missed that before.

mygrizzly1022
02-11-2012, 09:08 PM
Brian

Great thread as per usual. Your threads are a joy to read and I devour every one. Manny Karmas to you
I have to confess the speed at which you take a dream from out of you head, to a working model totally Pís me off. I am real good at the dreaming partÖ..not so much at turning them into reality like you can. Thanks for sharing, because there are lots of us dreamers out here in cyber space that truly appreciate you effort.

Regards; Bert

dp
02-11-2012, 11:53 PM
I haven't seen a brown paper bag for years, do the plastic one work OK.:D

You get them at liquor stores.

dp
02-11-2012, 11:59 PM
Nice work on this project, Brian. I think you're ready to take on the fabled Snow Engine. That's one I'd like to build, in fact. It's a gorgeous engine but actually quite simple.

Here's your trail head:

http://thebloughs.net/hobbies/metalworking/snow/index.php

Tom has some beautiful animations and appears to be Jonesing to get one built, too. CAD files included.

brian Rupnow
02-12-2012, 12:30 PM
My God, those crosshead guides have a beautifull shape!!! Kinda like Marilyn Monroe on steroids.---But what a pig to machine. I started with solid 1.125 cold rolled steel. The drilling, reaming, and boring are pretty straightforeward, but the removal of material from the outer diameter to yield that beautifull profile is a nasty bunch of work on my small mill. That big .625 inch diameter ball end mill I use clunks and thumps like the voice of doom. I may try to get the same result on the second crosshead using a 2 flute .625 inch endmill and plunge cutting at the ends. In the picture you can see a piece of tooling that I saved from when I built the Popcorn engine when I had to machine the crosshead for it.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/onecrossheaddone001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-12-2012, 03:49 PM
My last idea was NOT a good one. Making one of these crossheads with a ball end mill is miserable. Making one by plunge cutting is sheer torture, and you end up having to work from the blind slide half the time. Trust me---Don't do it that way. The results end up the same but its twice as much work. On the positive side, I now have a nice matching pair of crosshead guides. I agree with gbritnell---Large ball nosed cutters shouldn't be used on a small mill. I won't do it again.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOTHCROSSHEADS001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-12-2012, 05:16 PM
And for those of you out there who REALLY want to tie up a whole weekend machining----GO NUTS!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCROSSHEADGUIDE.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-12-2012, 06:07 PM
Messing about a bit with the model----I added in steam pipes at 1/4" diameter. I don't think they look to big or "clunky", but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. At 3/16" they just looked too small to me. I moved the boiler a bit closer to the back of the base, and added some beefier connecting rods because of the length. when I get to the boiler, I am going to add a fire door and a pair of ash clean out doors in the base. Speaking of the base---that may be the next thing I build, so I have something to bolt all my little parts to. I find that if I don't have something substantial to bolt all my little bits to, I start to lose them.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/FULLASSEMBLYDONKEY.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-12-2012, 08:32 PM
The base should be fairly straightforeward in terms of machining operations. Its going to require a lot of hogging out around the perimeter, and I haven't quite worked out whether the boiler will set in a round counterbored hole or just set on top of the base. ---Probably just set on top. I want to add on a pair of "ash cleanout" doors on the rear side between the cylinders, not sure yet of how they will be attached.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYBASEPLATE.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/ASHCLEANOUTDOORSONREALDONKEY.jpg

camdigger
02-13-2012, 03:30 AM
Neat build Brian! I was impressed by the simple yet seemingly effective clutch set up and can hardly wait to see how you manage the main drum brake.

Are you going to include a cathead/capstan winch on the outboard end of the main drum shaft like the one on the last picture you posted? I have a fondness for them as they were a handy part of the first drilling rigs I worked on. They have since been phased out in favor of independently powered winches (mainly hydraulic) for safety reasons.

Here's an interesting winch on an antique Mack. If memory serves, it is a Braden winch.
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx301/camdigger/Irricana2006006.jpg

Black Forest
02-13-2012, 06:05 AM
Brian, In my ignorance or just plain stupidity I would like to know what was the difficulty in machining those last parts? It would seem to me a pretty simple setup to use a regular endmill to achieve that look.

So why was it so difficult?

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 08:19 AM
Camdigger---A capstan winch at one end is a definite possibility. Blackforest--My small mill does really good milling brass or aluminum. It machines steel as well, but it groans and moans a lot while doing it. When machining the crossheads one had to do a fair depth of machining on two opposing sides, then use a 5/8" ball nosed mill to clean out the last 5/16" to get that gracefull curve at the ends. Ball mills don't cut worth a damn. They thump and bang and shake the entire machine.

Bmyers
02-13-2012, 08:43 AM
Brian,
Does this engine have a throttle ?

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 09:54 AM
[QUOTE=Bmyers]Brian,
Does this engine have a throttle ?[/QUOTE

Steam engines did at times have throttles, and it was simply a butterfly valve type of device that admitted more or less steam to the cylinders. Most steam engines were set up to be "constant speed" type engines, where the throttle was operated by a flyball governor. When the engine reached the operating range that the flyball governor was set for, it would settle in and run at that speed. If a load was applied, the flyballs were slowed down, and since they are a centrifugal device, this slowing down would change their position, and subsequently the throttle butterfly would open more, admitting more steam untill the engine speeded up to the desired rpm again. Likewise, if the engine started to "run away with itself" as in over revving, the flyball governor would sense this and close the butterfly valve admitting less steam so the engine would slow down. Smaller utility steam engines like on a Donkey would run at a slow speed untill the operator wanted to take up a cable on the winch drum----Then the operator would move the throttle to a more open position to give more steam flow, and consequently more power and speed.

dp
02-13-2012, 10:06 AM
Ball mills don't cut worth a damn. They thump and bang and shake the entire machine.

Did you consider using the side of a 5/8" mill vs using the end of a ball mill?

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 10:17 AM
Did you consider using the side of a 5/8" mill vs using the end of a ball mill?
Read post 76 and 77

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 03:20 PM
Just in case you didn't know----Aluminum plate can be cut quite handily on a table saw with a carbide toothed blade. Its dangerous, its horribly loud, and its scary as Hell, but it beats standing around ageing waiting for my bandsaw to cut it. Thats 1" plate you see. It has a terrible habit of kicking back and trying to behead you, so you want to hang on real tight, always know where your fingers are, and don't laugh at my table saw. Its probably older than you are. I paid $25 for it 25 years ago at a yard sale and then souped it up with a 2 hp. compressor motor off a house sized propane tank storage unit.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/cuttingaluminumplate003.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/cuttingaluminumplate002.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/cuttingaluminumplate001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 07:24 PM
So here we are, after a part days machining, with the outer profile mostly finish milled. I have one big old angle plate that I bought when I bought the mill.----It gets used only rarely, but when its needed, nothing else would work as well. Tomorrow should see most of this base finished, if my arm doesn't fall off from turning the feed handles back and forth.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/basepartlydone001.jpg

sasquatch
02-13-2012, 07:52 PM
Looking good, and thanks again for the pic follow ups. Interesting to say the least.

Is that a "Sutton" table saw by chance?

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 08:04 PM
Sasquatch----I've had that saw for 25 years, and never looked to see what kind it was!!! I just went out to the garage and looked, and it has a nameplate rivetted on that says EDGERITE---Eatons of Canada.---Brian

daveo
02-13-2012, 08:27 PM
Looks god as usual! Id be to scared to try the table saw method of cutting aluminum!

And thanks for posting your drawings!!!! Pretty cool of you!

brian Rupnow
02-13-2012, 08:40 PM
NUTS!!! A little checking of my endmills has shown me that I can't put that lovely fillet around the bottom lip of the base. The height of the vertical portion above the flange is 5/8", and the 3/16" ball end mill I have only has a short cutting area about 3/8" long from the very tip before it flares out to 3/8" diameter to fit the collet.

sasquatch
02-13-2012, 08:46 PM
Thanks Brian Re: the Edgeright saw. Re: Eatons, i,m sure it was made by Sutton, believe they were either in St. Thomas or Brantford, must have been badged Edgeright for Eatons.

Yup, you got BIGGER balls than me to be pushing that thick of aluminum through that saw freehand!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Duffy
02-13-2012, 09:57 PM
Brian, I am afraid that I am with you. I have a 4x6 band saw, a 14" band saw, a 10" table saw, a 12" chop saw and even a power hack saw, but the only one I thought of for cutting aluminum slab or plate is my table saw. You DO need ear protection and those little chips are HOT, but my, does it save time. As a bonus it is quite accurate. Also, my chop saw deals with aluminum bar and castings really quickly.

J. R. Williams
02-13-2012, 10:16 PM
I use my Delta band saw to cut aluminum plate. It has the low speed gear box which helps. During the cut I apply beeswax directly to the blade for some lubrication. No problems.

Keep the progress articles coming !!!

JRW

camdigger
02-14-2012, 04:10 AM
....... Tomorrow should see most of this base finished, if my arm doesn't fall off from turning the feed handles back and forth.............

Umm, an adaptor/speed reducer driven by a cordless drill or the like for the table movements should be a no brainer for a gent of your vast talents....

I've never had the gonads to cut aluminum plate on my table saw, but I did rig up a mandrel to use a 7 1/4" woodcutting carbide blade in a vertical mill to make some cuts through some heavy 50-60 mm Al sections. Hearing protection was an issue there too as the sawblade seemed to ring like a bell.

Do you know anyone who works at Tetrapak in Aurora? A long time ago, there were several guys who worked there who lived in Barrie, one or two of which were model train guys. Now and then they (Tetrapak) scrap obsolete machines and damaged parts that are largely made of Aluminum, Stainless, and some brass. Might be worth asking after....

oldtiffie
02-14-2012, 05:49 AM
No one has mentioned aluminium-cutting TC saw blades.

They do exist and have quite a bit of negative rake and they work very well.

There are ample warnings about using a normal wood-cutting blade.

I use mine on my excellent 12" made-in-the-USA mitre/bevel/drop saw and it has no trouble at all - but I use the proper aluminium-cutting wax/grease lubricating stick. The blade is set at full depth.

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Triton/?action=view&current=Triton9.jpg

Cutting with these (or any mitre saw) blades must be done in "climb-milling" mode else a nasty accident might ensue. Climb-milling is self-cleansing as it clears the chips away and does not drag them in as will or may be the case with conventional sawing/milling.

Conventional milling/sawing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Conventional_Milling_01.png

Climb milling/sawing:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Climb_Milling_01.png/300px-Climb_Milling_01.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_cutter#Conventional_milling_versus_climb_m illing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_cutter

oldtiffie
02-14-2012, 06:13 AM
My last idea was NOT a good one. Making one of these crossheads with a ball end mill is miserable. Making one by plunge cutting is sheer torture, and you end up having to work from the blind slide half the time. Trust me---Don't do it that way. The results end up the same but its twice as much work. On the positive side, I now have a nice matching pair of crosshead guides. I agree with gbritnell---Large ball nosed cutters shouldn't be used on a small mill. I won't do it again.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOTHCROSSHEADS001.jpg

Brian.

That job on the cross-head is just made to be done on a small shaper. A lot of other jobs there are easily done on a spaper which amongst other things gives nicely finished "straight line" surfaces and no "swirls" as is the case on a milling machine.

There seem to be plenty of good small shapers for sale on the web from time to time.

Dave S.
02-14-2012, 10:49 AM
I cut aluminium on my table saw all the time. The trick I have found is 1 use a cross cut blade not a rip blade. 2 raise the blade high enough that the teeth are cutting as close to straight down as possible. 3 use the rip fence when the piece is long and narrow or the miter fence when the piece is longer than it is wide.

As to the fillet if you can tilt the work piece so you can use the ball end mill you have. It will require resetting for each edge.

Dave

dockrat
02-14-2012, 10:54 AM
Brian, I use the same setup as tiffie for cutting aluminum plate. Note that he has a 60 tooth blade on it. I would suggest you get one for that kind of job. I also use the same saw for cutting steel tubing and plate but replace the blade with an 8" zip blade. Here is a pic of some steel tubing I just cut yesterday.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/Dockrat1/IMGP1613Medium.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-14-2012, 11:48 AM
I just broke into the Rupnow fortune and bought a 1/4" dia. ball nosed cutter. It is long enough to perform the task!!!

oldtiffie
02-14-2012, 04:36 PM
http://www.austsaw.com.au/saw-blade-products/aluminium-blades

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&cp=25&gs_id=2s&xhr=t&q=aluminium+cutting+saw+blade&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=aluminium+cutting+saw+bla&aq=0v&aqi=g-v1g-b1&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=ccb7af23316d74de&biw=1280&bih=523

oldtiffie
02-14-2012, 06:28 PM
I just broke into the Rupnow fortune and bought a 1/4" dia. ball nosed cutter. It is long enough to perform the task!!!

Brian.

Have you thought of use TC burrs?

They cut very freely but they will need lots of parrafin/kerosene or WD-40 as cutting compound to reduce any swarf sticking to the burr.

http://www.esska-tech.co.uk/esska_eng_s/tc_burrs_length_55_65mm_cut_3_hicoat_hc_.html

http://www.google.com.au/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&source=hp&q=TC+burrs&pbx=1&oq=TC+burrs&aq=f&aqi=g-sv1&aql=&gs_sm=12&gs_upl=0l0l1l6212l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=ccb7af23316d74de&biw=1280&bih=523

brian Rupnow
02-14-2012, 07:11 PM
Oldtiffie----Thank you for the suggestion. My problem is solved for now, but I'll remember that tip for the next time.---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-14-2012, 07:29 PM
Near as I can tell, that new 1/4" ball end cutter that I bought is going to work real slick. I got called away today right in the middle of milling my baseplate, but tonight I snuck into my shop and kind of squeezed in behind the mill to get this shot. I have never milled to an inside corner with a radius in it before. Its kind of a combination of tricks and simple math. I know the total depth of cut is going to be 5/8"-----But the radius on the ball is 1/8"----Therefore I can only cut to 1/2" depth with my 3/4" two flute cutter. Then I have to offset my cutter from the vertical wall by 1/8" and cut another 1/8" deeper. Then I put in the 1/4" ball nose tool, zero off the bottom of the cut, back up 1/8" in Z axis, wind the cutter over untill it just "kisses" the vertical wall, then start taking passes advancing the ball nosed cutter .015 at a time untill I reach my zero on the z axis. It works---but its kind of like walking a tight-rope balancing 3 plates while blindfolded. The picture doesn't show it really well, but I wasn't about to tear down my set-up to get a better picture.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/ballnosecutter001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-15-2012, 08:34 PM
Suffered a minor catastrophe this afternoon while machining the end of the baseplate. The cutter dropped down about .100 while finishing off the flange on the end opposite the boiler. Cutter dug in, pulled down, blew the fuse in the mill!!! Not a terrible catastrophe----but a maddening one. I planned on painting the base anyways, so I filled up the almost perfect 3/4" diameter circle with J B Weld tonight and will let it set overnight with a 100 watt bulb close to it. Other than that, the baseplate is turning out quite nicely. The 1/4" ball nosed mill I purchased has put a lovely 1/8" fillet on the inside corner of the flange along both sides and across the end opposite the boiler, and I bought a peice of 1/8" square HSS to make a radius cutter where the radius blends into the curve up near the end where the cylinder mounts. I will post a picture of it when I have built it and succesfully used it.

sasquatch
02-15-2012, 08:45 PM
Sorry to hear of the dilemma, but not overly serious, and sounds like a good fix for it.
Looking forward to the next episode, interesting pics, again, thanks for posting this stuff!!

brian Rupnow
02-16-2012, 02:24 PM
Sometimes I paint myself into corners. It is QUITE EASY to design something in 3D that looks really good, but is damn difficult to actually recreate in metal. This is one example, where the black arrow points to. After running my filleting end mill along the inside corner to create that nice "as cast" looking fillet, I had no idea how to chase that fillet around the corner. I had left the material there to fillet----Just didn't know how to go about doing it.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/RADIUSCUTTINGTOOL006.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-16-2012, 02:25 PM
So----I built myself a filleting too. I milled a slot into a chunk of 3/4" diameter cold rolled, 1/8" wide. I had purchased a piece of 1/8" HSS yesterday, so took it to my grinder and formed a 1/8" rad on one end. I had drilled and tapped my 'special tool' for a couple of #5-40 set screws, so that secured the HSS in the tool, then I trimmed off the other end.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/RADIUSCUTTINGTOOL004.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/RADIUSCUTTINGTOOL001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-16-2012, 02:25 PM
And "Voila!!!!!"----the results are not outstanding, but beat the Hell out of anything I could have done with a Dremel tool and a burr. I thought as I was finishing this up that I could probably have achieved the same results with my boring head if had wanted to sacrifice one of my boring tools by grinding a radius on the carbide tip. This is still going to require a bit of dressing with said Dremel tool and burr, but its been a learning experience!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/RADIUSCUTTINGTOOL009.jpg

camdigger
02-16-2012, 03:11 PM
And "Voila!!!!!"----the results are not outstanding, but beat the Hell out of anything I could have done with a Dremel tool and a burr............ but its been a learning experience!!!


I have to admire your persistence. I am reminded why fillets are rarely done on the class of work I typically see unless it is a casting feature.

brian Rupnow
02-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Thats a world of pain mostly behind me!!! The base looks great, but it stetches my capabilities as a machinist.----But probably thats a good thing. I have some minor cosmetic work yet to do on the base, but that can wait untill final tear-down, when I paint the base.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/basefinished001-2.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/basefinished002-1.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-16-2012, 05:07 PM
Think I'll go here next. I'm burned out from working on that base. A quickly "nested" layout shows that I can get two brackets out of a crusty old piece of brass that I have left over from some other job.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/scroungingbrass001.jpg.

brian Rupnow
02-17-2012, 04:34 PM
WARNING--WARNING--WARNING---I THOUGHT I HAD MENTIONED THIS AT THE BEGINNING OF MY THREAD, BUT I CAN'T FIND IT NOW.---THIS DONKEY WILL RUN ON COMPRESSED AIR, NOT STEAM. DUFFY HAS POINTED OUT THAT THE BOILER IS TOO SMALL IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE SIZE OF THE CYLINDERS----MY APOLOGIES TO ALL WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A TRUE STEAMER--BRIAN

brian Rupnow
02-18-2012, 10:40 AM
Slowly, Slowly Pokey Monkey----The crosshead guide supports are taking shape. I have to figure out next if its worth setting up the rotary table to round them off, or to do it freehand on my beltsander. The problem with doing them on my rotary table is that I would have to Loctite a shaft into the bores to hold them. The trouble with doing them freehand----Well we all know the trouble with that!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADTUBESUPPORTS001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADTUBESUPPORTS004.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-18-2012, 12:01 PM
I decided to take the easy way out----So I walked them out to my big vertical belt sander and freehanded them. Then a little file work, and Hey Presto!!! Now I have to set about making the wee buggers right and left hand.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADSUPPORTS-3001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADGUIDESUPPORT-A-1.jpg

Black Forest
02-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Looks good Brian. So when is this thing going to run?

EddyCurr
02-18-2012, 01:35 PM
Re: posts #76 & #77 - any further reflection on the matter of machining
crossheads on a small mill?



My God, those crosshead guides have a beautifull shape!!!
But what a pig to machine.

... the removal of material from the outer diameter to yield that beautiful
profile is a nasty bunch of work on my small mill. That big .625 inch diameter
ball end mill I use clunks and thumps like the voice of doom.

I may try to get the same result on the second crosshead using a 2 flute
.625 inch endmill and plunge cutting at the ends.My last idea was NOT a good one.

Making one of these crossheads with a ball end mill is miserable. Making
one by plunge cutting is sheer torture, and you end up having to work from
the blind slide half the time.

Trust me---Don't do it that way. The results end up the same but it's
twice as much work.

I agree with gbritnell---Large ball nosed cutters shouldn't be used on a
small mill. I won't do it again.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOTHCROSSHEADS001.jpg

.

brian Rupnow
02-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Cowabunga Roy----Lookit the ears on that sucker!!!! Wish that all my parts turned out so well!!!----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADSUPPORTSFINISHED004.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CROSSHEADSUPPORTSFINISHED002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-18-2012, 05:24 PM
BlackForest---No timelines established on this one. It'll be done when its done. If I set a definite timeline, then I almost kill myself trying to get finished in time. This is supposed to be a "relaxing" hobby.----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-18-2012, 05:44 PM
Well, this should be interesting, to say the least. In right and left hand as well-----------
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BEARINGSUPPORT-2-1.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BEARINGSUPPORT-2-2.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-18-2012, 07:56 PM
And how does one go about making something with such wildly imaginative radii on it? Well, its like this. I needed to come up with the geometry in order to "draw" the part. Yes, even in 3D there are rules, the first of which is that you have to be able to draw the object in 2D before extruding it into the third dimension. And the geometry used in creating that drawing is composed of lines, arcs, circles, and angles, same as any mechanical drawing. 99% of the shape is purely cosmetic. The only really important geometry on the part is that the base must be flat, the top parallel to the base, and the relationship of the upper and lower bearing radii to the base and to each other. The cutout in the center, and those big swooping radii on the outer edges are flights of fancy, pure and simple. They serve no purpose, other than "eye candy". So---How will I proceed? Well, first of all, I'll print the drawing off at 1:1 scale, and glue the print of the main profile to some cereal box cardboard. Then I'll cut it out with my scissors. I will take a piece of 1/2" aluminum of sufficient size (I notice I have left the overall height off the posted drawing---I will remedy that.) I establish one straight edge on the aluminum plate or bar stock as my base, and set it up laying flat in my milling machine, parallel to the bed, with a piece of sacrificial aluminum underneath it. Using the hand dials (I have no electronic read-outs) I will pick up "zero" from the edge I have designated as the "bottom" and drill the two holes which appear as "half holes" on the perimeter of the frame. In the same set-up I will drill the 3 holes that form the corners of the window in the center. I will then stand the piece of aluminum on edge, with the "bottom" resting on the mill table and clamp it to an angle plate and mill the top surface to a height of 2.371" from the base. (Thats the dimension I left off the drawing). I then remove it from the mill and coat it with layout dye, and lineing my cardboard cutout up with the bottom edge and the previously drilled holes, I will trace around the cardboard with a scribing tool. I will cut the two major outer radii using my bandsaw, and the curved lines connecting the 3 "window" holes will be cut out with my sabre saw. The only important feature on the piece other than the bearing holes and the top bearing pad is the area to either side of the pinion shaft hole, which must be a straight line (not a radius) and must go exactly thru the center of the hole at the angle specified on the drawing. I will leave a bit of extra material in that area and set the piece back up in my mill to finish machining those areas. The material which is removed from the face of the plate to leave a raised "boss" at the upper mainshaft bearing will be dealt with using the milling machine and rotary table.

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 04:59 PM
If you have to make two plates that have identical outer contours, then what better way to start out than by bolting the two plates together, with zero clearance holes. I counterbore the material so I don't have bolt heads to contend with in subsequeunt operations. I have found that no matter how carefully I line the plates up and how tightly I clamp them before drilling, there will always end up being some minor misalignment on the two edges which are supposed to be in line, so I always take a light pass over both edges AFTER the are bolted together.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BEARINGPLATES-1002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 05:00 PM
Somebody is going to ask me "Why did you bolt that extra piece of plate to the edge of my bearing plates?"---Well, since I was scrounging thru my junk bin to find these two plates, they are just a tad to small. You will notice that the top "half hole" is only about 0.100 from the top edge. I can't drill a half hole---only full sized holes. And there is absolutely no way to drill a hole that close to the edge of a plate without having the drill break thru, catch and break the drill, or drill a very crooked hole. With that extra piece bolted on there, I can drill and ream my hole with no fear of that happening (part of the hole will now be in that scrap of plate). Then I unbolt the plate and throw it back into my junk bin.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/PLATEBOLTEDON2001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 05:00 PM
So there they are!!! A world of filing awaits me, but they are identical and all of the critical surfaces and holes are an exact match.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BEARINGSTANDS-4001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 05:01 PM
The bearing stands are 75% finished. I still have a bit of light sanding to do, and some tapped holes, but I'm happy.----Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BRGSTANDSFINISHED-1001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 05:01 PM
Guess I'll go here next. I have to have some way to clamp the brg. stands to a shaft to spin it in my rotary table chuck, and this is probably the best way---seeing as I have to build them anyways.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/WINCHSHAFTBRGCAP.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/PINIONSHAFTBEARINGCAP.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm getting better at this radius business. I have to tap some holes for the pinion shaft bearing caps and to hold the stands to the base, and they're done. Once I get the bearing stands finished, I can either flip or flop.---That is---Move to the gears and winch drum and clutch, or finish of the engines and get them running.---Not sure which yet.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BRGSTANDSWITHRADII004.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BRGSTANDSWITHRADII003.jpg

sasquatch
02-20-2012, 05:25 PM
Darned nice work Brian, interesting build!!

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 07:19 PM
Sasquatch----Thanks. You have to be my biggest fan!!! When I get this far down into a build, everyone interested has stopped by at least once and said Hi, and then I don't hear from them again. I can see by my "counter" that literally thousands of people have "had a look" but I don't hear much from anyone. It always makes me feel good when someone stops by with a positive comment and says "Hello.".------Brian

topct
02-20-2012, 07:51 PM
Sasquatch----Thanks. You have to be my biggest fan!!! When I get this far down into a build, everyone interested has stopped by at least once and said Hi, and then I don't hear from them again. I can see by my "counter" that literally thousands of people have "had a look" but I don't hear much from anyone. It always makes me feel good when someone stops by with a positive comment and says "Hello.".------Brian

"Hello" I'm watching.

coalsmok
02-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Just so you know this is the first thread I check when I get home.

dockrat
02-20-2012, 08:00 PM
It always makes me feel good when someone stops by with a positive comment and says "Hello.".------Brian

Brian, at the rate your turning out parts, I didn't think you had time to say "hello" I'm here for every new post you put up but most times I just wave :)

brian Rupnow
02-20-2012, 08:12 PM
Thanks guys---I appreciate it.----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-21-2012, 08:25 PM
And for tonights enjoyment and entertainment (after 8 hours at one of my "real" jobs)----A potload of tapped holes and a nifty set of pinion bearing caps!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/PINIONSHAFTBEARINGCAPS001.jpg

sasquatch
02-21-2012, 08:57 PM
Ummmmm,, i say the whole thing is getting pretty "Nifty"!!

Notice you now are carefully babying the project with a nice soft blanket cushion!!:D

brian Rupnow
02-21-2012, 09:19 PM
I've been thinking of what to do next, and have decided that since the success or failure of the entire project depends on the engine, that is where I should go next. This is a relatively simple twin cylinder self starting engine, with what amounts to an EXTREMELY long center section to the crankshaft. Over the next few weeks I will be concentrating on finishing and running the engine before moving on to the winch. I'm undecided as to whether or not this winch should have a brake. There is no room for a brake at the end where the clutch is, but at the other end of the winch drum, if I remove the flange and replace it with a disc of cast iron, then a band brake can run on the outer surface of the disc. Obviously, the clutch and brake should both be operated from the same side of the engine, so that means there would be some kind of cross rod running through the base from side to side so that both levers can be operated by one man from one side. On one hand, this adds a fair bit of complexity to the build, but on the other, since I made this a single drum donkey I have saved myself a lot of work, so it kind of balances out. What is your opinion fellows?----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-21-2012, 09:22 PM
Ummmmm,, i say the whole thing is getting pretty "Nifty"!!

Notice you now are carefully babying the project with a nice soft blanket cushion!!:D
Noooooo----its just that the end of my desk is now so discolored and nasty that the engine doesn't photograph well when setting directly on it. Momma saves all the old towels for me in a "rag bag" as she knows I always need them for washing the hotrod and cleaning up messes, so that is a piece of my newest "rag" .

sasquatch
02-21-2012, 09:34 PM
Just my opinion, but i think you should have as you say both the clutch and brake lever on the same side as the operator would be, every donkey engine must have had both??

Wondering what type of cable you are planning for the drum?

camdigger
02-22-2012, 04:43 AM
Wondering what type of cable you are planning for the drum?

A suggestion, if I may.... If you are looking for appropriate size cable or 'rope" I'd suggest a fishing store in ice fishing season. Sme of those braided lines are about the right thickness to be appropriately scaled. The other thing would be a fishing store that caters to the big water guys and look for downrigger cable.

BTW, nice build Brian!

Makes me wish I hadn't misplaced the pictures of the old steam driven wooden derrick drilling rigs I have taken over the years...:rolleyes: Those old wooden rigs had rope drives on the drums ( for a +/- 2" sisal line) and big old band brakes activated by a simple looking one piece forged brake lever/crank/shaft funning in pillow blocks anchored to the working floor in front of the drums.

For a while, I was trying to get some info on the old steam driven Oilwell rotary rigs from National Supply, but had no success.

Duffy
02-22-2012, 09:42 AM
I agree with Camdigger, Brian. Get some down-rigger line. West Coast commercial stuff is multi-strand SS, very flexible and just about the right scale. Commercial suppliers in Victoria or Vancouver should have "spool ends" pretty cheap. Just have to find a name.
The Museum of Civilization has a "working" cable tool oil rig. The Curator for that section of the Museum may be able to help. It was built on-site from SOME plans or other!
Another suggestion would be a pile driver. Down East they still drive herring weir piles that way, (although they HAVE advanced to a gasoline or deisel engine,:D .) The geometry of the rig is unchanged.

brian Rupnow
02-22-2012, 09:54 AM
Think this is where I'll expend my efforts today. These flywheels are smaller in diameter than I am accustomed to. I know for a fact that a double acting twin cylinder engine with the crank throws 90 degrees out of phase will run with no flywheel at all, but its pretty "Hirky Jirky". I have made these flywheels as thick as I can without compromising the look of the donkey.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYFLYWHEEL.jpg

camdigger
02-22-2012, 10:15 AM
The Museum of Civilization has a "working" cable tool oil rig. The Curator for that section of the Museum may be able to help. It was built on-site from SOME plans or other!
Another suggestion would be a pile driver. Down East they still drive herring weir piles that way, (although they HAVE advanced to a gasoline or deisel engine,:D .) The geometry of the rig is unchanged.

I have a couple rolls of film of this rig http://www.ferniederrick.ca/pictures.htm and the one in Heritage park in Calgary. Both are older than the ones I was looking for. The one I was most interested in drilled a relief well for the Atlantic #3 blowout in the Leduc field in about '47. It was specifically contracted from either General Petroleums or Commonwealth Drilling because it was steam driven and therefore safer than any IC engine driven rig. The fact that the boilers were spotted over 1/2 a mile away up the prevailing wind and pipes run to the rig made it safer. If the wind started to low toward the boilers, the firebox was flooded.

brian Rupnow
02-22-2012, 10:46 AM
I have a couple rolls of film of this rig http://www.ferniederrick.ca/pictures.htm and the one in Heritage park in Calgary. Both are older than the ones I was looking for. The one I was most interested in drilled a relief well for the Atlantic #3 blowout in the Leduc field in about '47. It was specifically contracted from either General Petroleums or Commonwealth Drilling because it was steam driven and therefore safer than any IC engine driven rig. The fact that the boilers were spotted over 1/2 a mile away up the prevailing wind and pipes run to the rig made it safer. If the wind started to low toward the boilers, the firebox was flooded.
Thats pretty impressive camdigger. I've never seen anything like that. In southern Ontario at Petrolia they have a bit of a museum, because it is apparently the site of the first Ontario oil strike, but I don't think they have anything like that.----Brian

Dave S.
02-22-2012, 11:08 AM
Brian

Here are a couple of photos of a donkey engine rigged as a pile driver.

Dave

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q3/Dave_Sohlstrom/skid2.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q3/Dave_Sohlstrom/skid1.jpg

Black Forest
02-22-2012, 02:00 PM
Brian, I am wondering what crazy assed thing you are going to hook this winch up to? Maybe a quiliotine?

EddyCurr
02-22-2012, 03:25 PM
The one I was most interested in drilled a relief well for the
Atlantic #3 blowout in the Leduc field in about '47.The Atlantic #3 blowout occured in March of 1948.

Are you familiar with either of the two following books?


"The Well That Couldn`t be Tamed: The True Story of Atlantic #3"
Knight, Harry A.; 1989; 126 pgs; ISBN 0969330405

"Atlantic No. 3, 1948"
Kerr, Aubrey; 1986; 226 pgs; ISBN 0889257183I read one of them long enough ago that I do not recall whether it was
Knight's or Kerr's.

There are copies of both available for In-Library use locally. I could
check for discussion and photos of the steam-driven engine used for
the relief well on my next visit if helpful.

A copy of Knight's book is available at a local used bookstore. Copies
of both are available from another shop in Three Hills, AB.

.

EddyCurr
02-22-2012, 03:37 PM
Here are a couple of photos of a donkey engine rigged as a pile driver.Looking at those photos, I imagine a cartoon segment in the
Looney Tunes / Merrie Melodies style.

In the opening scene, each time the pile driver's hammer strikes home
the sled the engine is on and the horizontal beams supporting it above
the existing piles bounce up precariously in the air.

Different days back then.

.

brian Rupnow
02-22-2012, 04:32 PM
And this is what I spent the day at!!! The pictures are somewhat "posed" with a piece of 1/4" cold rolled holding them up. I am happy with what I've done today, but consider----Its 4:30 now and I started these this morning at 8:30 !---No wait, thats a lie----I spent a couple of hours at least tapping the base for the bolts from underneath that hold the bearing stands in place, and the threaded holes in the sides of the base that hold up the brass crosshead guide supports. Still, darned expensive flywheels if I had to pay somebody to make them. Last week I bought a set of small broaches at BusyBee tools and this might be my first opportunity to broach something.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/flywheelsfinished--maybe002.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/flywheelsfinished--maybe001.jpg

sasquatch
02-22-2012, 06:41 PM
looking good my friend!!

Dave S. thanks for posting those neat old pictures.!

Were i live, on a back road a steam powered pile driver drove some pilings in back in 1905 for a old style single lane concrete bridge.

A friend of mine got the job two years ago to remove the old bridge and install the new one.

When he pulled the old wooden pilings out, the sections below grade were almost like new,,,,,,,, and amazingly some were tamarack, and some were even yellow birch!! After over 100 years they were still sound!!

brian Rupnow
02-22-2012, 07:09 PM
I've been looking at the pictures posted above, feeling that something just didn't look right. It just hit me---when I had the engines off this morning to drill and tap the base, I swapped sides unknowingly when I reassembled it. The valve bodies are supposed to set inboard, not outboard. No grief---I just switched then back to being in the right place.

camdigger
02-23-2012, 12:26 AM
The Atlantic #3 blowout occured in March of 1948.

Are you familiar with either of the two following books?


"The Well That Couldn`t be Tamed: The True Story of Atlantic #3"
Knight, Harry A.; 1989; 126 pgs; ISBN 0969330405

"Atlantic No. 3, 1948"
Kerr, Aubrey; 1986; 226 pgs; ISBN 0889257183I read one of them long enough ago that I do not recall whether it was
Knight's or Kerr's.

There are copies of both available for In-Library use locally. I could
check for discussion and photos of the steam-driven engine used for
the relief well on my next visit if helpful.

A copy of Knight's book is available at a local used bookstore. Copies
of both are available from another shop in Three Hills, AB.

.

Eddy

I have copies of both books. In fact, I'm sure that the rationale for the rig choice and the source of the rig was detailed in Kerr's book along with a picture or two of the remote boilers. Oddly enough, both Commonwealth and General Petroleum amalgamated (along with many others) to eventually end up as part of Nabors Drilling. All I know is that the rig was steam driven and built by Oilwell. I don't know the rig number nor model. As a matter of curiosity, you could look at your local library, but I doubt I'll be doing any modelling anytime soon.

I have visited (as close as I could get) the site of the Atlantic blowout, I used to stop by the museum at Devon whenever it was open as I drove by, I worked for one of the guys who learned the directional stuff while helping drill the relief wells (Al Phillips founder of UDDL), I actually worked for the contractor (now part of Nabors drilling) that supplied the rig for a while. None of these sources have been able to help with pictures or blueprints of the rig in question (I just haven't asked the right person the right question), although I haven't managed to ask to librarian at the Devon museum nor managed to get to the Glenbow to do any research there.

The shop in Three Hills is a long way from me at the moment (long story)...

FWIW, there are examples of equipment that bracket both sides of the rig in question at the Devon museum (Leduc #1 replica rig), the Edmonton tourist center on Calgary Trail south of the city (conventional derrick with IC equipment-right era, wrong drive system and major components), the information center at Fox Creek (a newer rig), on the west side of the QEII at Blackfalds (newer yet jacknife design), Heritage Park in Calgary (replica of the wooden derrick that drilled the Turner Valley discovery for Dingman ), the Fernie rig seen above, the Brooks museum, and the Medicine Hat information center. The examples in Medicine Hat and Brooks are smaller lighter units (pole rigs) designed for shallow gas drilling.

As it stands now, I have lots of fodder for a model, just not the one I want the most and very little opportunity to research nor build one.

camdigger
02-23-2012, 01:03 AM
I seem to remember from a family holiday that there is at least one of these donkey engines as background scenery in Disneyland (the white water ride in California Adventure?).

I was surprised to see all the steam equipment there. Trains and roller coasters in service (gas or propane fired) as well as many non runners like the donkey engines set up for logging, etc. Their largest roller coaster includes a steam catapult like an aircraft carrier.

Apparently Walt D was a steam buff.

EddyCurr
02-23-2012, 02:46 AM
... I worked for one of the guys who learned the directional stuff
while helping drill the relief wells (Al Phillips founder of UDDL), I actually
worked for the contractor (now part of Nabors drilling) that supplied the
rig for a while.A relative was in on the ground floor of that era.


W. H. "Bill" Caine - Canadian Petroleum Hall of Fame (http://www.canadianpetroleumhalloffame.ca/bill-caine.html)

I do not know that he participated in anyway at the Atlantic blowout, but
he surely would have been a spectator. Not to mention knowing others
then and later who would have been involved.

Unfortunately, he has passed.

If I happen to come across something of use for your model, I will get
word to you.


Apparently Walt D was a steam buff.Huh! Who woulda thunk it?


Steamboat Willie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Willie)
.

camdigger
02-23-2012, 04:09 AM
:D
A relative was in on the ground floor of that era.


W. H. "Bill" Caine - Canadian Petroleum Hall of Fame (http://www.canadianpetroleumhalloffame.ca/bill-caine.html)

I do not know that he participated in anyway at the Atlantic blowout, but
he surely would have been a spectator. Not to mention knowing others
then and later who would have been involved..

I doubt he was on the rig as I seem to recall General Petroleums and Commonwealth were the contractors, but from his bio it says that he was driving for Dowell (later a division of Schlumberger) a year after 1947, which puts him behind the wheel of a truck about the time of the Atlantic blowout. I think after they took over operations, they (Esso) would have called everyone including Dowell for equipment and support in the control efforts. It is highly likely Bill was on site at one time or another.


Unfortunately, he has passed..
As has almost everyone of working age in 1948....


If I happen to come across something of use for your model, I will get
word to you.

Thanks!


Huh! Who woulda thunk it?


Steamboat Willie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steamboat_Willie)

Another Disney fan?...:D :D

camdigger
02-23-2012, 05:55 AM
Thats pretty impressive camdigger. I've never seen anything like that. In southern Ontario at Petrolia they have a bit of a museum, because it is apparently the site of the first Ontario oil strike, but I don't think they have anything like that.----Brian

From what I hear, the wells at Petrolia are shallower than the norm elsewhere. The rigs tended to be simple tripod derricks with no provision for racking tubulars like the Randall II here http://www.petroliaheritage.com/discovery.html. Cable tools were typically the mode of choice for drilling as it was less expensive and still effective in the harder rock in Ontario.

An interesting day trip from Barrie would be to go out into the oilfields around Petrolia and search out some of the jerkline pumping systems like the ones in some of the pictures on the museum page. The wells are shallow enough that several can be pumped using one larger engine driving a reciprocating (jerk) line to the separate units over the wells. Interesting in that some of the power lines were several hundred feet long. There were still some in use last I heard.

brian Rupnow
02-23-2012, 09:12 AM
I'm going to try a BIG STRETCH now and do something I have never done before. As I said earlier, I purchased a small broaching set from Busybee tools, and a big arbour press, and I guess the time has come to try it out. I didn't want a hole through the face nor the side of my brautiful flywheels, but a little sneaky cad work tells me that if I go in through one of the windows at 26 degrees I can get a tapped hole directly over the key. WQish me luck.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYFLYWHEEL-1.jpg

JCHannum
02-23-2012, 10:40 AM
To be protypically correct, use a tapered key with a gibhead. Then you will not need to tap the flywheel.

#4 on the picture. http://collections.infocollections.org/ukedu/collect/ukedu/index/assoc/gtz122be/p06.gif

Simple enough to make and effective on the speeds and forces it will encounter on your model.

brian Rupnow
02-23-2012, 10:50 AM
Well there!!! I've broached my first two keyways.---and as Bruce Lindsay said, Its "Easy -Peasy"!!! (Well, Bruce didn't actually put it that way, but he was right, its easy.) However----As in all things there apear to be a couple of caveats that I was unaware of. I used lots of cutting oil and ran the broach thru the first flywheel on the left, was thrilled with how easy it was. and took everything apart. But wait----the keyway was way to shallow. Okay, from what reading I have done to bone up for this test, thats why there is a spacer included in the kit. So---I put the spacer back in and ran the broach through again. Great!!! Now the damn keyway is too deep!!! Now I'm starting to feel a bit like Goldylocks.---(Ref the 3 bears.) On the next flywheel (on the right) I ran the broach through once, then put in the spacer, then ran the broach half way through the second time.---Now thats what a keyway is supposed to look like. i'll remember this for the next time I broach something.------And no Bruce, I didn't have a center drill small enough to get in there and start the holes. I did however have a long, 2 flute, 1/16" diameter end mill that did the job quite nicely.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/KEYWAYS005.jpg

Black Forest
02-23-2012, 10:52 AM
To be protypically correct, use a tapered key with a gibhead. Then you will not need to tap the flywheel.

#4 on the picture. http://collections.infocollections.org/ukedu/collect/ukedu/index/assoc/gtz122be/p06.gif

Simple enough to make and effective on the speeds and forces it will encounter on your model.


I am not sure but I would think you are referring to #3 not 4

brian Rupnow
02-23-2012, 10:53 AM
JC Hannum---Good advice but a bit late. The job is done now. I wouldn't have had room for a gib head key anyways, because I'm running damn near zero clearance between the con rod and the face of the flywheel----If the gib head stuck out at all, it would crash. However, thanks for thinking of me and the usefull advice.----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-23-2012, 10:58 AM
Whats the best way to but a 1/16" keyseat in a shaft? If I use a 1/16" endmill, it always cuts a bit wider than 1/16". If I use a 1/32" endmill, I break it. How about those woodruff key type cutters 1/16" wide---just run it out at the end of the shaft instead of cutting a true woodruff pocket?

J. R. Williams
02-23-2012, 11:46 AM
My vote is to use the Woodruff key cutter. A 1/16" end mill is not easy to use unless things are very rigid and controllable with a sharp tool.

Black_Moons
02-23-2012, 11:56 AM
Sounds like a good job for a woodruff cutter. Or maybe a sliting saw?

JCHannum
02-23-2012, 01:04 PM
I am not sure but I would think you are referring to #3 not 4

Yes #3, fat fingers strike again.

brian Rupnow
02-23-2012, 04:51 PM
I've spent the afternoon in the continuing education of Brian. First---Nobody in the world (at least the part accessable to me) carries nor can get 1/16" square keystock!!! However, they can get 3/32" square keystock overnight. Secondly---BusyBee tools doesn't carry 3/32" woodruff key cutters---(They didn't even seem to know that there is such a size). Thirdly, Brafasco tells me that there is no source for 1/4" x 1/4" shoulder bolts (For where my con-rod attaches to the flywheel) and that they would be special order and would cost $26 each. Fastenal tells me that they cost $2.18 and can be brought in for tomorrow. Barrie Welding tells me that 3/4" diameter brass will cost $4 for 4", but only if I can find a "short" in the rack. If somebody has to cut 4" off for me then it will cost $8.00. The guy who can get me 3/32" keystock overnight can also get me a 3/32" woodruff key cutter overnight. Thirdly, the broach bushing that fits my 1/4" bore in the flywheels will also accept the 3/32" broach.---thats a good thing!!!! I've learned a great deal this afternoon!!!!

sasquatch
02-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Made for an interesting if not frustrating afternoon!!

The 1/16th keystock,, is pretty tiny, wonder if it is made and for what application? (BIG BEN pocket watches?):D

Curious i just checked my industrial supply catalog and the smallest key stock listed is 1/8th, and there is no 3/32 shown either.

Just another check and KBC tools lists 3/32, but it's zinc plated.
KBC also has the 3/32 woodruff cutters.

sasquatch
02-23-2012, 05:58 PM
Brian, ok KBC carries both, in 1/16th cutter and keys (woodruff.)

camdigger
02-24-2012, 03:08 AM
Brian

I'd suggest a slitting saw of about 0.050" to cut the keyway if the saw will clear the crank.

If you can borrow some tips from a hillbilly...... for keystock, I'd suggest a stub of welding rod - common as mud and usually pretty good material. A little file work and you have a custom fit key to fit your "special" broached keyway. If you don't like filing, heat the rod a bit and apply a few judious blows with a BFH to thin the rod and establish the first two flats. If you don't have heat available, the initial shaping can be done cold of your BFH is heavy enough. I can flatten an 1/8" rod to 1/64 with a few blows from a 20 oz ballpeen. My 1 1/2 LB crosspeen will do a tapered wedge in a couple blows ( tapered shim to align tacked parts...)

I could have a couple keys made up out of stubs laying around a welding table before you got off the phone looking for keystock...

brian Rupnow
02-24-2012, 08:36 AM
Yesterday during all the hoo-haw about shaft keys, I did manage to actually make some parts. I designed, built and installed a pair of pinion shaft bushings and got a good start on the crossheads.---A note about those bushings.---You will notice that the o.d. is about .005 undersize from the holes for them in the bearing stands and caps which call for .312 reamed holes. I did this on purpose, because the bearing stands set so far apart that there is no way to ream them both in one set up. I can completely dismantle my pinion shaft from the flywheels and pinion gear and slide it out thru the bushings without ever actually removing the bearing caps. So---a light came on. Pull off the bearing caps, slide the bushings over the shaft, lay in a bed of "liquid metal epoxy" where the bushings set, and bolt everything back together with bushings and shaft in place and leave overnight. This morning the shaft turns freely in perfect alignment with no binding in the bushings.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCROSSHEADS001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYPINIONSHAFTBUSHINGS.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-24-2012, 11:55 AM
Making itsy bitsy pieces this morning. Not very exciting, but definitly needed for the engine to run. Pictures are already posted of Donkey crosshead and Donkey connector pin.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/002-1.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-24-2012, 01:48 PM
I'm far enough advanced at this stage to build a pair of connecting rods.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYCONNECTINGROD-2.jpg

sasquatch
02-24-2012, 04:04 PM
For God's sake!!

"HOO HAW"" about shaft keys????

Listen, we gave you professional advice, from centuries of experience, We'd NEVER give you any "HOO HAW"" , we may the odd time throw in a bit of BS, but considering the expertise and quality available on this site, you couldn't get better responses to such delicate questions!!:D :D :D

brian Rupnow
02-24-2012, 04:41 PM
All the Hoo Haw was at my end, running around town, getting no results. Today all is well. My new correct size cutter and key came in. My shoulder bolts come in. Every build sooner or later has a Hoo Haw day in it, where nothing seems to come together. A good nights sleep generally makes things better!!!:D :eek:

brian Rupnow
02-24-2012, 09:18 PM
Man, this is really starting to get exciting now!!! I lapped the crosshead into the crosshead tube today with 350 lapping compound and put a retaining bolt through the top of the brass crosshead support loop into a tapped hole in the end of the crosshead tube to keep everything positioned properly. I made the connecting rods up this afternoon from a piece of 1/4" brass bar. They are not finished yet, I still have to relieve both sides down to a 3/16" total width except at the end where they attach to the flywheel. I just had to dummy things up to see what it would look like assembled. I love it when I get to this stage and things finally start to look like the finished model!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONRODONENGINE001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-25-2012, 01:22 PM
This morning I had a lesson---"All about Keyways"!!! I had read that you can not mill a keyway for a given size of key with the same size of end mill. Not always believing everything I hear, I had to try this and see. So---First up was a keyseat milled with a 3/32" two flute carbide endmill. Guess what?? Everybody was right. 3/32" as a decimal is 0.09375" The slot the cutter made is .104" wide. The key fits---SURPRISE-- SLOPPILY.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/keyways002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Next up was a keyseat cut with a 3/32" woodruff key cutter. The 1/8" pin you see sticking out sideways was not in there while I was making the keyseat cut. It is my "horizontal reference" for when I have to rotate the shaft 90 degrees to put the keyseat in the other end---Remember, the two cylinders will be 90 degrees out of phase to make the engine self starting, and I need to be able to find that 90 degrees when I cut the keyseat in the other end of the shaft. Again, everone was right . This keyseat turned out to be exactly 0.094" wide. Only problem was, I screwed up my height calculation and the keyway was not on the center of the shaft.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/keyways003.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Moving right along----Of course every shaft has two ends, so we went to the other end and repeated a cut with the woodruff style cutter.---And BINGO!!! Everything was dead nuts like it was supposed to be!!! One caveat-----When you do this have only enough shaft stuck out past the end of the vice to clear your cutter. Small shafts like this one will deflect away from the cutter a lot if it can.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/keyways006.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/keyways005-1.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-25-2012, 01:29 PM
Now, if you have lived a good clean life (As I always do) your end result should look somewhat akin to this!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/assembledkey001.jpg

gizmo2
02-25-2012, 01:31 PM
Brian, this is turning into a post/build of epic proportions. Inspiration for all skill levels and abilities. I salute you, sir!

brian Rupnow
02-25-2012, 03:51 PM
That should be enough for today. Keyways are cut and keys installed. Both crossheads are lapped into their respective tubes, and both con rods are installed. The engines turn over by finger presure on the flywheels, but its getting stiffer as more and more pieces go together. One thing about it, when you get to this stage of the build and everything revolves completely, at least you are assured that you haven't muffed a dimension and that a piston is trying to bash its way out through a cylinder head at one end or the other. This coming week I hope to build the elliptical cams and associated linkage to operate the valves.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/bothconrodsin003.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/bothconrodsin004.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-25-2012, 05:13 PM
Thanks Gizmo----Its pretty damned epic at this end to!!!:D :D :D Its going to REALLY get exciting next week when I get those cams made.----Brian

sasquatch
02-25-2012, 08:11 PM
Brian looking better all the time,,, and yup, going to be exciting times in the "Rupnow Shop" when this thing is almost ready for a test run!!!

(Got a chuckle out of the pic with the pile of tools on the bench behind the engine!! Lol )

dp
02-25-2012, 09:19 PM
Brian - this is turning into a very attractive project. The shapes and curves and mixed metals are becoming art. Well done. Visually, probably your best yet.

duckman
02-25-2012, 09:28 PM
Brian when you say cams do you mean eccentrics, and did I miss weather or not its going to be reversible or dog clutch and brake. I also have not been able to find what I said that I had sorry.

brian Rupnow
02-26-2012, 07:22 AM
Brian when you say cams do you mean eccentrics, and did I miss weather or not its going to be reversible or dog clutch and brake. I also have not been able to find what I said that I had sorry.

Duckman---this one will have a clutch but it will be an internal expanding shoe type, and yes, it will have an external band brake. There will be no ratchet and pawl device on it to prevent anti rotation.----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-26-2012, 10:00 AM
I'm going to "borow" a trick I seen Stew Hart do the other day on the engine he is currently building. I have always made my eccentric straps in two pieces and then fiddled them together after the fact. Stew makes them as one piece but leaves the center section a bit longer than necessary---just the width of a slitting saw blade. Once they are slit, the pieces fit exactly together and can then be bolted together and bored.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/ECCENTRICSTRAPS001-1.jpg

Duffy
02-26-2012, 10:05 AM
Brian, that is EXACTLY how the model suppliers, (at least Brunnels,) do it. A sand casting, with or without a rough centerish hole.

brian Rupnow
02-26-2012, 06:52 PM
Here we are taking the big slice-----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/ECCENTRICSTRAPS003.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-26-2012, 06:59 PM
And here's how it ended up. I may do a bit of cosmetic filing here or there, but all in all it went well. Also in the picture you can see one of the hubless cams. In my original design these cams had hubs on them, but there is so little room between the flywheels and the bearing stands that I eliminated the hubs just to give myself some room. These cams work just as well as the hub style, its just that they are a real bugger to adjust the valve timing on. You have to remove the "cap" side of the eccentric strap to get at the set screw in the center of the hubless cam to adjust it rotationally. Please note that I have removed the eccentric strap drawing which I had posted much earlier in this thread, as it has undergone some fairly dramatic changes. I will post a new drawing tomorrow.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/ECCENTRICSTRAPS002-1.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-26-2012, 08:14 PM
This is a detail of the hubless cam. A picture is worth a thousand words----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYECCENTRIC.jpg

sid pileski
02-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Brian- I've made similar cam/follower setups like your doing. I've added an access hole to the body of the follower to allow a hex key to get to the set screw on the cam. That way you don't have to take the cap off to adjust the timing. Also if you place it correctly, the hole acts as an oil hole.

Sid

Mister ED
02-26-2012, 09:40 PM
Looking great Brian. One question though ... and I'm not sure on the wording ... how will the pistons be phased to each other? When one is at TDC ... will the other be at 180 degrees? Hard to see, but looking at the relationship of the two flywheel journals ... I'm guessing they are only about 90 (or 270) degrees apart. If they are not 180, any reasoning why not?

brian Rupnow
02-27-2012, 09:26 AM
Looking great Brian. One question though ... and I'm not sure on the wording ... how will the pistons be phased to each other? When one is at TDC ... will the other be at 180 degrees? Hard to see, but looking at the relationship of the two flywheel journals ... I'm guessing they are only about 90 (or 270) degrees apart. If they are not 180, any reasoning why not?
If the crank throws are at 180 degrees to each other, and the engine stops with one piston at top dead center and the other at bottom dead center, it will never self start. With 90 degrees out of phase, one of the pistons will always be off top dead center, so will start things moving from a dead stop. Thats the way all steam trains were set up.----Brian

brian Rupnow
02-27-2012, 03:20 PM
And these my friends, approach the threshhold of what I can see and work with. They are also the last of the engine parts except for the bent valve control rod which is a peice (well, 2 pieces) of bent 1/8" round cold rolled with a #5-40 thread on each end. Cross your fingers for me. We may have a runner by tomorrow!!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/VALVERODJOINTS006.jpg

reggie_obe
02-27-2012, 04:01 PM
What will the model boiler be made of? Traditional rolled sheet with (simulated) rivets?

brian Rupnow
02-27-2012, 04:58 PM
I must have lived right this week!!! ;D ;D ;D I timed the engine statically, disconnected the far side connecting rod, and plugged in the air.---And away it went!!! Its running on about 10 PSI which is the lowest I have ever had a brand new engine run with no break in whatsoever. Tomorrow, if I have as good luck with the far side cylinder hooked up, I'm golden!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/th_DONKEYRUNNINGONONECYLINDER.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/?action=view&current=DONKEYRUNNINGONONECYLINDER.mp4)

Mister ED
02-27-2012, 06:50 PM
I must have lived right this week!!! ;D ;D ;D I timed the engine statically, disconnected the far side connecting rod, and plugged in the air.---And away it went!!! Its running on about 10 PSI which is the lowest I have ever had a brand new engine run with no break in whatsoever. Tomorrow, if I have as good luck with the far side cylinder hooked up, I'm golden!!!
Very nice Brian!! That engine was cooking along pretty good.

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 10:08 AM
And this is the very last part that had to be made as far as the engines were concerned.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BENTVALVEROD.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 10:28 AM
This is what I've been looking foreward to for the last week!!! The engines run real sweet together, and self start easily at any point in the rotation. The second cylinder had a few more tight spots in the crosshead tube, but after a bit of work with 320 grit lapping compound it loosened up. As soon as it loosened up, I ran it in using the other operating cylinder for power for an hour. Its sitting on the floor in my office as I type this, ticking away on about 10 PSI air pressure running on both cylinders. I hope to take a bit of a break now, and then start on the rest of it---winch assembly and faux boiler. I simply had to assure myself that the engines were going to run all right before I invested a lot of time in the rest of it. Thanks for watching guys, and stay tuned-----There is a lot more yet to come.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/th_donkeyrunningonbothcylinders.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/?action=view&current=donkeyrunningonbothcylinders.mp4)

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 10:31 AM
What will the model boiler be made of? Traditional rolled sheet with (simulated) rivets?
I'm not going to get too crazy replicating a boiler---at least not to the extent of fake rivets. I think I will use aluminum tube for the upper and lower cylindrical portions, and maybe turn a transition cone from solid aluminum.----Not totally sure yet.

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 01:45 PM
I went downtown, did a bit of business, and got my spring haircut. (Hopefully that will hurry spring along!!!) I stopped in at my aluminum supplier and priced out 4" aluminum tube and 4" aluminum solid round. After I picked myself up off the floor I hurried home and looked in my "big scrap" cupboard.--And darned if I didn't find the perfect boiler in there!!! Of course, it doesn't look much like a boiler right now, but give me 20 minutes-----
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/DONKEYBOILER.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERMATERIAL001.jpg

garagemark
02-28-2012, 04:35 PM
Looks like a boiler to me.;)

J. R. Williams
02-28-2012, 05:23 PM
Consider fabricating the boiler to use the steel pipe as a storage vessel for your air supply. ?

TGTool
02-28-2012, 07:03 PM
Consider fabricating the boiler to use the steel pipe as a storage vessel for your air supply. ?

And make another magic energy generator video to put on Youtube - look, I just removed the air hose (only needed to get it started) and the engine keeps on running. Invest today!!

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 07:26 PM
Ha!!!!! I knew there was a boiler in there!! Now all I need is a piece of aluminum to make a transition cone. It did take longer than 20 minutes, but then again, it was FREE. It stretches the capacity of my 10 x 18 lathe to work on a 4" pipe, so I may take it to one of the machine shops I do work for and have then do a quick bore to reduce the wall thickness a bit. Since this only has to look like a boiler, and will ultimately be painted flat black, I think this will do just fine.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILER-1001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILER-1002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 07:30 PM
J.R. Williams----That is a rather fascinating idea, but I doubt that a twin cylinder engine would run very long on what that 4" pipe would hold.----But MAYBE---long enough to get investors looking---:D :D :D

sasquatch
02-28-2012, 08:08 PM
Once again , all i can say is great project!!

And,,,,,,,,,,,,,, All your'e postings along the way on this project are greatly appreciated, and followed faithfully.

(Now i'm wondering,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:rolleyes : What the heck the NEXT project will be!!):D

brian Rupnow
02-28-2012, 08:24 PM
Once again , all i can say is great project!!

And,,,,,,,,,,,,,, All your'e postings along the way on this project are greatly appreciated, and followed faithfully.

(Now i'm wondering,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:rolleyes : What the heck the NEXT project will be!!):D
By the time this project is finished, it will be hotrod weather. That yellow roadster pickup you like so much will take up my spare time for the next four months after that.---I plan on finding just what part of the "North Bay Area" you hang your hat in and taking a tour up to meet you.---Maybe I'll bring the Donkey up with me----Have you got a compressor?---Brian

sasquatch
02-28-2012, 08:30 PM
:D Yup, got a compressor, an oldie i just bought about a month ago, found on Kijiji.

Son and son in law would enjoy seeing that donkey engine and the pickup for sure!!

camdigger
02-29-2012, 04:06 AM
Ha!!!!! I knew there was a boiler in there!! Now all I need is a piece of aluminum to make a transition cone. It did take longer than 20 minutes, but then again, it was FREE. It stretches the capacity of my 10 x 18 lathe to work on a 4" pipe, so I may take it to one of the machine shops I do work for and have then do a quick bore to reduce the wall thickness a bit. Since this only has to look like a boiler, and will ultimately be painted flat black, I think this will do just fine.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILER-1001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILER-1002.jpg

Nice job so far Brian!

I have to ask though... Aluminum for a transition cone for steel boiler jacket and stack??!? How you plan to make the seams? If it were me (and it ain't), I'd think seriously about cutting triangular slots in the end of the larger pipe and bending them in to form a cone, then welding them up and grinding or machining it to shape. But then, I have torches, arc welder and a larger lathe available.....I know, I know, I'm a spoiled brat. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Or I'd just buy a transition piece from a pipe supply house.

Stepside
02-29-2012, 08:50 AM
Brian

I have enjoyed this whole project. I am sure that a great number of us are looking forward to the winch drum build. Have you considered putting all the drawings on a CD and selling them? I doubt you would get real rich but it might cover your costs of building the project.

As to the "boiler", I think I would keep the pipe as thick as possible to help damp some vibration. For the transition piece either do a surface development and roll it out of sheet metal or if you can find the right funnel just cut out the part you need.

Keep up the good work.

Pete

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 09:54 AM
Camdigger---I too have all of those tools, and know how to use them. However---go back through the thread and look at all of the pictures of this type of boiler. The cone was a seperate transition piece on all of them, and 99% of the boilers were rivetted construction. If I were making an art project, or the nosecone for a rocket, I would do exactly as you have suggested. What I am doing is taking a piece of 100 year old technology and trying to replicate it without getting too seriously crazy about reproducing rivetts, seams, etcetera. Thank you for having a look and saying Hi, and thank you for your suggestions. It means a lot when guys like you stop by and say Hi, and even if I don't use your suggestion, I appreciate that you gave it some thought and let me know about it.---Brian

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 10:03 AM
Here we have a $30 lump of aluminum, 4" dia. x 4" long. Over the next 8 hours, during the impending blizzard and freezing rain, I am going to do my best to turn it into a beautifull transition piece for my faux donkey boiler. I have my auxiliary heater turned to HI, I have an oldies station on playing good rock and roll, and my good wife is off working earning some grocery money. Does it get any sweeter?
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/boilertransition-1002.jpg

camdigger
02-29-2012, 11:35 AM
Here we have a $30 lump of aluminum, 4" dia. x 4" long. Over the next 8 hours, during the impending blizzard and freezing rain, I am going to do my best to turn it into a beautifull transition piece for my faux donkey boiler. I have my auxiliary heater turned to HI, I have an oldies station on playing good rock and roll, and my good wife is off working earning some grocery money. Does it get any sweeter?


Reminds me of a classic saying from my younger days.... "I sent Momma to town with my wallet, sent junior off to college, our daughter is at Granny's house, fed the dog, put the cat out, covered the bird's cage... Now I'm boss"........

Happy swarf making!

BTW, free advise is sometimes worth about what you pay for it, other times less...

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 01:24 PM
We start this grand foofaraw by using a center finding square to locate the approximate center on one side and putting in a hole with the largest countersink tool I have. When this thing goes up in the chuck, the chuck is holding on with the "Tips of its fingers" and I don't want this coming out of the lathe at speed and hitting me!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERTRANSITIONCONEONLATHE001-1.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 01:28 PM
Here we have a semi finished transition cone. It still has to have a step machined into the large end to fit snugly into the 4" pipe I machined yesterday. As you can see, my plan changed mid-stream (as often happens) and I decided not to use the smaller "smokestack" pipe, but instead machined it right onto the end of the cone.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERTRANSITIONCONEONLATHE001.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 01:30 PM
And all morning I've been expecting the Beach Boys (or whoever sang it) to pop up behind me and start singing "Goin' to Swarf City'!!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERTRANSITIONCONEONLATHE002.jpg

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 04:09 PM
The boiler top is finished. It cost me $30 and a day in my shop. I think its beautiful. There is NO other way to do a transition top like that from raw material to "ready for paint" in one day. I know---I did bodywork and paint for about 5 years, and although you can make something like a boiler top very lovely you absolutely can not do it in a day. If making from sheet metal-----first you lay it out---then assuming you have a set of slip rolls and know how to use them you roll a cone. If the cone comes out the right size the first time (A rare event) then you have to weld it or rivet it to join the ends. Then you prime it---2 or 3 times. Then you spot putty all the divots that show up when its primed. Then you wait for the spot putty to dry---then you sand the spot putty and prime it again----and so on ad infinitum. I know. I've lived it. What I've done today seems like a lot of work, and yes, it used up a day. but all it needs now is some epoxy to hold it in place and a shot of flat black enamel.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/boilertransitionfinished001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/boilertransitionfinished002.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/boilertransitionfinished003.jpg

TGTool
02-29-2012, 04:44 PM
Nice! Every step of the way. I presume you'll do some internal and external plumbing so the external air at least appears to be boiler generated.

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 06:26 PM
Nice! Every step of the way. I presume you'll do some internal and external plumbing so the external air at least appears to be boiler generated.
Go back to the beginning of the thread and look at the 3D solid model. You will see the two main steam lines coming from the boiler to the cylinder valve boxes. This actual model follows the 3D model pretty well exactly.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/FULLASSEMBLYDONKEY.jpg

hitnmiss
02-29-2012, 06:31 PM
Hi Brian,
Another "lurker" here. I've followed all your builds here and like them all.

This one is way cool!

Keep up the good work.

sasquatch
02-29-2012, 06:40 PM
Brian with all that aluminum swarf you have enough to make up all the "Body Hair" on the "Bionic " woman.!!

You could even give her one of the 1960's "Beehive" hairdoos!:D

Looking good again, so far not much of a storm up here yet.

brian Rupnow
02-29-2012, 06:52 PM
Brian with all that aluminum swarf you have enough to make up all the "Body Hair" on the "Bionic " woman.!!

You could even give her one of the 1960's "Beehive" hairdoos!:D

Looking good again, so far not much of a storm up here yet.

It stormed all day here, but only 2 or 3" of accumulated snow on the ground. I've heard that its worse south of me. As far as swarf like body hair----nah, I won't get into that here!!:D :D

brian Rupnow
03-01-2012, 09:06 AM
The following 3D models are intended to give a bit of insight as to how the boiler connects to the base and how my airlines will be run. I am kind of making this up as I go along, and since I have to create these 3D models anyways to clarify it for myself, I thought you might want to see. Since the main boiler tube is made of steel, I can weld a piece of 1" x 1/2" flatbar across the bottom inside and put two 1/4" clearance holes through it. These can be used to bolt the boiler to the baseplate. I want the transition cap on the boiler to be removeable, but I don't want somebody to steal it at a show--so---I have welded a piece of 3/4" rod to that crossbar at the bottom of the boiler tube and tapped the top of it 3/8"-16 unc. A stepped bore in the transition cone lets me put a washer down the top that stops at the register (step) and allows a 3/8" bolt to secure the transition cone to the boiler tube. That way I can remove it with a wrench, but grabby fingers can't pocket it and walk away with it. Since this model will run on air and not steam, I have drilled the base for my air inlet just below one of the cylinders and it surfaces inside the boiler tube. The bent tubes which run from the top of the boiler tube down to the cylinders will be connected with a Teed flex line to the air spigot which surfaces inside the boiler. I still haven't totally worked these air tubes to the cylinders out, but since brass is so difficult to bent I am considering making the lines from steel automotive brakeline, which can be bent in quite a tight radius without kinking. I will add a cosmetic fire door and ash cleanouts to the boiler and base as this develops farther.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERCONSTRUCTION.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERSECTIONED.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERASSEMBLYEXPLODED.jpg

dp
03-01-2012, 10:06 AM
Those interfaces where the boiler meets the base plate and the transition cone look like air leak opportunities, so is some kind of o-ring or gasket in the works?

brian Rupnow
03-01-2012, 10:09 AM
Those interfaces where the boiler meets the base plate and the transition cone look like air leak opportunities, so is some kind of o-ring or gasket in the works?
The boiler will not be pressurized. There will be cear vinyl tubes and a T fitting between the floor spigot and the feed lines to the cylinders. I just didn't model them because they are a pain in the butt to model.

brian Rupnow
03-01-2012, 12:39 PM
There!!! Nobodys going to rip off my smolestack unless they are carrying the appropriate Allen wrench.---This is a view "down the stack" as well as a very out of focus shot of the strap welded across the bottom inside of the boiler, and a view down the boiler without the cone in place.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERMOUNTING001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERMOUNTING004.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BOILERMOUNTING005.jpg

J. R. Williams
03-01-2012, 01:23 PM
How are you going to control the air to the engine to vary the speed?

brian Rupnow
03-01-2012, 03:39 PM
How are you going to control the air to the engine to vary the speed?
J.R. Williams---On all of my other engines I simply adjust the regulator pressure to adjust the speed, but as Captain Jerry over on HMEM pointed out, these Donkeys generally had a hand controlled throttle, so I guess I will have to modify my plumbing layout.----Brian

J. R. Williams
03-01-2012, 04:38 PM
The typical hoist engine has a single control valve in the steam line, a drum hand control, and a foot operated brake. I have a copy of 'Audels Engineers and Mechanics Guide, Vol 2, that has considerable detail of the engines and boiler. One cut shows all the parts of a unit.

brian Rupnow
03-03-2012, 12:35 PM
I have built a very small ball type valve to control the speed of my Donkey engine. Attached you can see the drawing of the overall assembly, and a picture of the valve itself.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/VALVEASSENBLY-DRAWING.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BRIANSVALVE002.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-03-2012, 12:37 PM
Some of the other forum members at HMEM expressed doubt as to whether or not this type of valve would adequately control a steam/air engine, and to be truthfull, I wasn't sure myself. Todays video seems to have settled the issue.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/th_SMALLVALVECONTROLLINGDONKEYENGINE.jpg (http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/?action=view&current=SMALLVALVECONTROLLINGDONKEYENGINE.mp4)

Duffy
03-03-2012, 05:52 PM
Brian, to me that valve looks like a "highly modified" plug valve. I believe that MOST of the old steam engines used a tapered plug valve linked to the flyball governor for steam control.
Now we could debate FOR HOURS, whether a round hole in a cylindrical plug "equates" to a slot in a tapered plug:rolleyes: . But, if it works, then IT WORKS!

camdigger
03-05-2012, 03:49 AM
Nice valve Brian:cool: .

I'm sure the wear it will experience over its' life will not affect the capability to throttle the airflow. Most throttle valve applications have a shut off valve in line for complete sealing anyway don't they? A complete seal that can be lapped in would be the only advantage I can see of a tapered valve stem and seat.

Your design should satisfy all but the most AR rivet counters!

brian Rupnow
03-05-2012, 10:37 AM
This is probably where I am going to go next on this build. The engines are finished, and the boiler is finished except for cosmetic fire door and ash clean out doors. My piping is on order from PM Research, and there isn't much else that I can do for the present. I have no idea at this time just how I am going to attach the gear to the shaft, but it may end up being a cross pinned solution. I can't make the hub any larger, due to clutch considerations, which means I don't have sufficient room for a key and set screw.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/90TOOTH24DPSPURGEAR.jpg

Stepside
03-05-2012, 11:13 AM
Brian

If I were building the gear, the temptation would be to make the hub first. I would include the set screw hole complete with threads in the hub. Then machine the appropriate recess in the gear blank and silver braze them together. The advantage besides being easy to tap the setscrew hole is the ammount of material that does not have to be removed. An additional advantage is being able to use a mandrel to hold the part for the rest of the project and have everthing concentric to the bore.

We are looking forward to your solution to the proble.

Pete

brian Rupnow
03-05-2012, 11:32 AM
Brian

If I were building the gear, the temptation would be to make the hub first. I would include the set screw hole complete with threads in the hub. Then machine the appropriate recess in the gear blank and silver braze them together. The advantage besides being easy to tap the setscrew hole is the ammount of material that does not have to be removed. An additional advantage is being able to use a mandrel to hold the part for the rest of the project and have everthing concentric to the bore.

We are looking forward to your solution to the proble.

Pete
Stepside---I totally agree with you. However, the limit on hub diameter is imposed by the clutch shoes which ride in a cavity in the drum, opposite to the big countebore in the gear. I have blanks of sufficient size to turn the gear from one piece, but I sure do hate to see all that brass dissapear as chips. Thats like flushing gold down the sewer.

brian Rupnow
03-05-2012, 04:32 PM
Today I spent some time working on the large winch gear. When I bought the brass for this project, all my supplier had was 5" diameter. Not wanting to wait untill he ordered in another 12 foot stick of 4" diameter, I paid an exorbitant price for the 5" and had him part off one piece 1" long for the winch gear. I absolutely hate using my 4 jaw chuck, but need must when the devil drives and here you see a picture of what I was about today. I pared off the perimeter with my bandsaw, as I didn't want to turn it all into chips. Then I set the rather ungainly piece left up in my 4 jaw and turned the o.d. to 3.833: which is the o.d. of the 90 tooth 24dp gear I will cut, and then drilled, bored, and reamed the center hole all in the same set up.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BIGGEAR-DONKEY001.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-05-2012, 04:35 PM
And here are the "parings" which I will save and use for little brass parts. Somehow my photo software has managed to turn this picture all cock-a-hoop, but you get the idea. This brass is too outrageously expensive to throw any usable bits away!!!
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/BIGGEAR-DONKEY002.jpg

sasquatch
03-05-2012, 08:03 PM
Agree the price of brass is sky high, and saving every little scrap is good as it may just come in handy for some little thing someday.

Don't get any of those brass chips mixed up in that dry wall mud!!:D

brian Rupnow
03-06-2012, 09:57 AM
There is my 'orrible, daggerous trepanning tool at work. Its a parting off tool ground to a long wicked point, and it seems to work perfect for trepanning. I take a series of 0.100" plunge cuts across the front face of what I am trepanning at about 250RPM, then a couple of .005 deep cuts all the way across at 1500 to smooth the ridges out. It works better than any other way I have tried to do this. The long 5/8" rod held in the tailstock chuck is not actually touching the part. Its about 0.040" clear of the part. I have had parts suddenly jump out of the chuck jaws while doing this type of operation and scare the Bejesus outa me, so I put that rod in as a "safety anti-jumper outer". I have yet to decide if I will leave that bit of remaining hub in and take it out in a later operation, or take it out now.---Brian
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/trepanning001.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/trepanning003.jpg

Black Forest
03-06-2012, 11:07 AM
Brian this is the most interesting build so far. You do some things definately thinking outside the box!

Is the hub that is behind the "anti-jump out of the chuck" rod going to end up flush?

brian Rupnow
03-06-2012, 11:47 AM
Now I've put the 3 jaw back on and flipped the part around to machine the other side. I have intentionally left the 0.625" hub longer than necessary.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/machininglargewinchgear002.jpg

brian Rupnow
03-06-2012, 11:50 AM
Brian this is the most interesting build so far. You do some things definately thinking outside the box!

Is the hub that is behind the "anti-jump out of the chuck" rod going to end up flush?
Yes, it is going to end up flush, but keep in mind that I still have to set this piece up in the 3 jaw chuck on my rotary table to cut the gear teeth. The more hub I can leave in the part, the more rigid my set-up will be when I go to cut the gear teeth. I can always trim any extra hub away after the fact.

brian Rupnow
03-06-2012, 11:59 AM
Now here is a little mystery that I have never completely figured out, but I know from experience it is so. In my first set up, in the four jaw chuck, I turned the outer diameter of the part and drilled/bored/reamed the center hole all in the same set up.---Should be concentric, shouldn't it. However, when I mount the part on a snug fitting arbor and put it back in the 3 jaw, if I put a dial indicator on the outer diameter of the part, then rotate it, I get about .003 to .005 "run-out" condition. I assume that is an indication of the run-out in my 3 jaw chuck. I am going to "pin" that extra bit of hub on the trepanned side to the shaft, then when I move over to the 3 jaw in my rotary table I will grip he shaft, not the actual brass part which really doesn't have sufficient hub to hang onto. Remember that I need clearance for the gear cutter between the brass part and the actual chuck jaws.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/machininglargewinchgear003.jpg

Black Forest
03-06-2012, 01:39 PM
Brian this is a question not a sugestion. Did you turn the arbor to the finished diameter in the three jaw chuck and without removing it mount the brass part? If I was doing it that is how I would do it. But I am a beginner and have no clue therefor the question.

brian Rupnow
03-06-2012, 04:24 PM
We have a 90 tooth gear!!! And the hub which was purposely left on the "wrong" side is now gone.
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/winchgearalmostcomplete001.jpg

sasquatch
03-06-2012, 06:13 PM
Brian , great looking gear!!

How long did it take you to do that including set up??