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View Full Version : Calling Shiraz,President of Grizzly



gwilson
02-15-2012, 09:22 PM
I wish you would please post the specifications of your lathe chucks,drill chucks,and ball bearing tailstock centers.

I have bought many machines and other items from you over the years. But,I would not want to buy a lathe chuck,or the other items,when I do not have an idea of their accuracy.

Even in the expensive South Bend chucks,your catalog gives no details like this. Only one tailstock center lists its accuracy as .0005" out of all of them.

Is there some reason why these specs. are not listed?

My current larger lathe at home is a 16" x 40" lathe I bought a pair of in 1986. One for work and one for home use. I carefully ground all of the surfaces and the inside taper of these 2 lathes myself. There was seen some small lack of concentricity in the inside spindle taper. I don't recall by now what it was. Not a lot,but I like things as perfect as possible.

It would be very useful if you gave specs on the accuracy of your lathes' spindles,though. I do not recommend everyone to try regrinding theirs,but I am an experienced machinist.

In most catalogs where chucks are sold,there is furnished specs on their accuracy.

sasquatch
02-15-2012, 09:33 PM
In Canada, "Busy Bee tools" is horrendous for giving little information on their products.

Boostinjdm
02-15-2012, 09:54 PM
Grizzly also has a boring head that I was looking at, but it didn't even list the body diameter.

RancherBill
02-15-2012, 09:55 PM
They are not published because their ISO 9,000,000 factories change the specs. container by container.

Machtool
02-15-2012, 09:58 PM
I wouldn't upset him, if I were you.

http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/shiraz02.jpg

tlfamm
02-15-2012, 10:10 PM
It's not just an issue of chucks, George - its an issue across the entire product line. And it leads to a rather important question:

is Grizzly really a "Purveyor of Fine Machinery", or just another big-box store, distributing such products as the manufacturers send their way?




Do note that I have Grizzly equipment myself, and am generally satisfied with such - but I would really like to see published specifications that the manufacturers are held to.

That would indicate a certain level of maturity in the entire supply chain.

gwilson
02-15-2012, 11:29 PM
Changing manufacturer's products may be true,but at least the South Bend products should have a stable factory origination. They aren't real inexpensive chucks,and should be listed with the specs.

I must have bought at least 7 machines or more from Grizzly,both for work and home use. The last thing I bought for work was an 8" jointer. It had extremely accurate table parallelism and flatness,and there was an easy way to shim either side of the cutterhead,if ever needed. This jointer was the cheapest 8" they sold. It replaced a 1950's or 60's Delta,whose tables had gotten worn enough to be problematic.

Spookydad
02-16-2012, 12:18 AM
I believe that Grizzly now owns the rights to sell equipment under the South Bend name. It is the same Chinese stuff, just a slightly higher QC.

I had the 16 pc South Bend quick change collet set that appears identical to the Grizzly model. The SB case is slightly more robust.

Neil

Video Man
02-16-2012, 12:26 AM
Yes, one thing they could do is state the cfm consumption specs for each of their air tools. This is something you need to know before you buy...:rolleyes:

Forrest Addy
02-16-2012, 01:43 AM
What? A fuzzy picture of a similar item isn't good enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machtool
I wouldn't upset him, if I were you.



Don't worry about civilian target shooters like Balolia. Lookit all the crap his has in his playpen. By the time he unloads and sets up all the stuff it takes him to shoot Bambi could run a thousand yards and whop him in the face with a custard pie.

If I had my druthers a competition shooter couldn't bring anything but his weapon, ammo, two sandbags, and a spotting scope on the line.

My dad was a fine shot and he didn't fool around either. First time I went hunting with him he stopped in mid-stride swiveled to a tree for a shooting rest and dropped a spike deer on a ridge about 200 yards away with a neck shot all in about 5 seconds. He "let" me carry the little bugger back to camp - "You fetch him. I'll wait here" as he dug out his thermos of coffee. I wasn't a beloved son to whom he was passing the secrets of the hunt. I was a pack mule.

Black_Moons
02-16-2012, 05:32 AM
Agreed, Im most disappointed by the tiny pictures and lackluster discription of MOST tools in tool catalogs.

That would get me actualy intrested in buying. 5 lines of specs and a price (if your lucky!) is not enough. I want every spec you can think of measuring, the weight, And if you can be bothered, Ask someone who has actualy used the tool for a paragraph about it. Even better yet, Still use the paragraph even if its not 100% posative. Yes, Some of your toolds won't sell as well with 'negative' reviews, However OTHER tools with posative reviews WILL sell more because people realise your allowing negative reviews, And hence something with a posative review actualy is good.

philbur
02-16-2012, 06:58 AM
If your supplier doesn't give the specification then it can't be out of specification now can it. It loads the dice against you for when you decide to complain.

For bottom end Chinese chucks the manufacturers' only QC acceptance criteria is: "does it look like a chuck".

Phil:)

Doozer
02-16-2012, 08:17 AM
I hear where you are comming from.
Most of us on this forum have the engineering mindset, and many may be engineers. To engineers, specs are everything. The other day I was looking for a vendor to supply some steel tubing. For the project I needed to specify the tubing in terms of:
Size, ID and OD
Tolerance of the ID and OD sizes
Length
Tolerance of length
Spec on concentricity of ID and OD
Spec on straightness
Spec on surface finish roughness average and max
Spec on alloy
Spec on hardness
Spec on roundness
Spec on surface treatment (hard chrome in this case)
Spec on chrome thickness
...and a few other specs I am forgetting.
With machine tools, size, tolerance and specs are everything.
If a product lists No specs or ambigious specs, I conclude they don't want to be held accountable if the product does not meet the specs.
Not publishing specs is a CYA move, and to me it means the purchase is a crap shoot if you will be happy with said product.
Perhaps if Grizz publishes more specs on their products, then yes, there will be more returns, buy maybe, just maybe, buyers will see exactly what they are buying before hand and know what to expect when the item arrives. Sales might actually increase from the products being accurately portrayed, which means a lot to many people. Just my 2cents.

--Doozer

justanengineer
02-16-2012, 08:24 AM
I wouldn't upset him, if I were you.


Why not? Mine's bigger! :D Just a lil project yours truly got to work on, with me at the trig....errrr....pushbutton.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u21/cdubdrummin/l.jpg

I entirely sympathize with those buying new that are lacking specs. Its like pissing outside during a storm, youre going to get soaked eventually one way or another.

wierdscience
02-16-2012, 08:46 AM
Why not? Mine's bigger! :D Just a lil project yours truly got to work on, with me at the trig....errrr....pushbutton.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u21/cdubdrummin/l.jpg


So which is better the M134 or sex?:D

lazlo
02-16-2012, 09:53 AM
So which is better the M134 or sex?:D

4,000 rpm @ 40 cents/round: they're both expensive. The difference is the minigun won't follow you around afterwards ;)

Highpower
02-16-2012, 10:17 AM
What good are the specs when they cancel your order and don't bother telling you about it?

Listed as "In stock" and you never hear ANYTHING from them.


Subject: Your Amazon.com Inquiry

Hello,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I've checked your order and found that you purchased this item from one of our registered third-party sellers on Amazon Merchants.

Amazon Merchant listings are created by sellers other than Amazon.com. When you buy an item at Amazon Merchant, the individual seller processes and ship your order.

I see that the seller has cancelled this order (#103-2902114-xxxxxxx) as this item Grizzly H8107 4" Riser Block for G6760 was out of stock.

Unfortunately, at this time it is not possible to view cancelled orders in your account. Your credit card has not been charged for this order.

We find that our third-party merchants work very hard to maintain their inventories, but on rare occasions the availability of a listed item will change by the time a purchase is placed online.

I'm sorry, but it is not possible to leave feedback for the cancelled order. If this seller is still listing the item as in stock and if the seller has not notified you about the availability of the item, please forward your feedback to the following e-mail address:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/reports

The appropriate department will monitor the seller's performance.

While an occasional stock-out is bound to happen, we do require sellers to keep these to a minimum. If we find a seller's out-of-stock sales become problematic, we will take appropriate action.

Unfortunately, we don't have any more stock of Grizzly H8107 4" Riser Block for G6760 right now, and we're not sure when we'll be able to get more.

Our supply of some items is limited, and these products sell out quickly. I realize this is disappointing news, and I'm sorry we had to cancel your order.

I'd suggest checking our website from time to time to see if this item is available. If anyone is selling it, you'll see a "More Buying Choices" box on the product detail page; if it's not available from any sellers, you might see an "Alert me" link; "Alert me" allows you to sign up so we can e-mail you when Amazon has stock available for purchase.

Thank you for your understanding. We appreciate your participation in Amazon.com.

Thank you for your inquiry. Did I solve your problem?
Yeah, right.....

gwilson
02-16-2012, 10:32 AM
So,why didn't you just order it from Grizzly? Personally,I've never had something like this happen. This strays from the original topic.

The more expensive S.B chucks are made in Taiwan,and should be under better quality control than Chinese mainland stuff. Their specs should be more regulated.

If the chuck is mainland,I'll just assume .003" runout is what it will be.

Arthur.Marks
02-16-2012, 11:17 AM
I may be wrong on some items, but... Aren't the spec's listed on the downloadable manual / spec sheets? At least for the South Bend items? I would have to double check.

SGW
02-16-2012, 11:52 AM
It's not just Grizzly. When I went looking for a DRO a few years ago, I found that the less accurate the DRO, the less information I could find about its accuracy and tolerances, and what I did find tended to be obfuscated. I eventually chose Acu-Rite, partly because they had the most complete specs, in understandable terms. (Now that Heidenhain has taken over Acu-Rite, I don't know what their published specs are like.)

moe1942
02-16-2012, 12:15 PM
Buy from a company that lists the specs..

lugnut
02-16-2012, 12:45 PM
This problem is a easy fix. It only cost a little more to go first class. Simply,only buy from those company's that meet YOUR standards.:D

macona
02-16-2012, 02:59 PM
I believe that Grizzly now owns the rights to sell equipment under the South Bend name. It is the same Chinese stuff, just a slightly higher QC.

I had the 16 pc South Bend quick change collet set that appears identical to the Grizzly model. The SB case is slightly more robust.

Neil

Lathes are made in Taiwan, not china.

gwilson
02-16-2012, 04:32 PM
To get a manual,I'd first have had to buy the chuck,wouldn't I ?

BTW,I NEVER believe the spec sheets that come with import chucks. I think they print them up and stick them in the box.

Actually,some of the Grizzly machines meet my standards just fine. I mentioned that I had replaced a worn Delta jointer with a Grizzly low cost 8" model(on a MUSEUM budget!). Its tables were extremely accurate,parallel with each other and the cutter head.

The millwork shop next door,AGAINST my advice( they probably submitted their request to a purchasing gerbil),got an 8" Powermatic for SEVERAL times what I paid for the Grizzly. Its tables were over 1/8" OUT OF PARALLEL. And,there wasn't much you could do about it. I shimmed the outfeed table with a big stack of shims,and told them to never touch that table. My advice was also to return it. It was truly bizarre how out of true those tables were,and the stupid thing cost over $2000.00. My Grizzly was a discontinued model,and was about $600.00.

tmarks11
02-16-2012, 05:24 PM
To get a manual,I'd first have had to buy the chuck,wouldn't I ?
No. Grizzly has a lot of their manual online.

For example, the SB 8" chuck:

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/sb1226_m.pdf

This won't help you, though, since it doesn't list things like TIR in the manual.

This is from that manual:
OD Clamping........... 0.39"6.89" (10175mm)
ID Clamping ............ 2.56"7.48" (65190mm)
Chuck Bore Diameter ................1.97" (50mm)
Chuck Outer Diameter ............7.87" (200mm)
Maximum Speed ...........................3000 RPM*
Mounting Type ......................... D1-5 Camlock
Construction ..................Fine-Grain Cast-Iron
Chuck Weight ......................................... 30 lbs
Chuck Shipping Weight ......................... 34 lbs
Country of Origin ................................ Taiwan

justanengineer
02-16-2012, 08:33 PM
So which is better the M134 or sex?:D

Tough call, I felt like a virgin on prom night w/that one. No perceivable "kick," but upon pushing the button, the electric motor spooled for ~3 seconds, you hear a roar, EVERYTHING in front of you is on fire, and the HMMWV is suddenly 3-4 inches taller despite being in park with the parking brake locked. I have a few other pics somewhere looking down on the firing barrels. Tracers were belted in every 10th round and you can see 4-5 in every pic. Rather proud to say that I was in the right place at the right time to help out on an awesome project converting this from aircraft door/pneumatic to truck/electric for the local SF group.

wierdscience
02-16-2012, 09:08 PM
Tough call, I felt like a virgin on prom night w/that one. No perceivable "kick," but upon pushing the button, the electric motor spooled for ~3 seconds, you hear a roar, EVERYTHING in front of you is on fire, and the HMMWV is suddenly 3-4 inches taller despite being in park with the parking brake locked. I have a few other pics somewhere looking down on the firing barrels. Tracers were belted in every 10th round and you can see 4-5 in every pic. Rather proud to say that I was in the right place at the right time to help out on an awesome project converting this from aircraft door/pneumatic to truck/electric for the local SF group.

Watched one firing at night once,how those barrels stay together while glowing red is impressive:cool:

hojpoj
02-16-2012, 09:11 PM
... and the HMMWV is suddenly 3-4 inches taller despite being in park with the parking brake locked.

Huh, surprised you'd see that sorta movement. Peak recoil's about 300 lbs, average is about 150 lbs. I could see the HMMWV being taller if it was creeping forward onto the pile of spent brass and links, though :p I'm doing work to mount one of those in a fixed forward firing position on a military helicopter (in an unconventional place), they're certainly interesting weapons.

Back to the original topic and some comments thus far: I'm considering geting an ER chuck for my mini-mill, but haven't really been motivated because nobody gives a measure of concentricity (well, at least for the stuff that I can afford). There, not totally OT :D

gwilson
02-16-2012, 10:36 PM
Pappa Grizzly,are you out there?

Scottike
02-16-2012, 10:51 PM
Yea, I thought about trying out a couple of their insert tool holders, but they won't even tell you what insert they take - just a Grizz part number.
So I'll buy mine elsewhere.

dp
02-16-2012, 11:02 PM
If you took a chuck to a standards lab and paid them to provide the data you would like to have, what do you suppose that would cost? Now suppose what it would cost to send it to a lab you would not trust. In both cases the cost of the lab goes into the price of the product you buy. How do you think that would that affect most people's decision to buy?

Machtool
02-17-2012, 12:19 AM
Pappa Grizzly,are you out there?
What makes you think he was ever going to see this? He’s not a member here. He uses the handle Papagrizzly over on P.M. Assuming he would use the same name here, there is no such member. Has anyone ever seen Mr. Balolia here on H.S.M?

He hasn’t posted on P.M since before Christmas, and after reading some of the crap that gets dropped on him there, I’m not surprised.

Why don’t you drop him an email?

Phil.

J Tiers
02-17-2012, 12:30 AM
Aw qwitcherbitchn...... :D

You want lack of specs, go look up many things at Starrett..... you'll have to dig deep to find specs there too.

It's been traditional to be coy about specs in the old time machine tool biz..... A few rare vendors would go out on a limb, past the usual "finest XYZ made" crap and give real specs. Rivett GUARANTEED the 608 would turn parts within 0.0002" in 6 inches, for instance, and Moore GUARANTEED the table movement accuracy on jig bores.

But most makers gave very generic specs, "typical" and not "guaranteed", if they gave any at all beyond the general size, weight, swing, etc.

Mr Baliola (not Babolia) SOULD be here, since Grizzly is a brand used by folks here, and NOT so much on PM (at least not admitted).... in fact Grizzly and Atlas are verboten at PM, the names alone get the thread closed.
PM is being a tad silly, since many of the shops the members own or work at in fact DO have Grizzly, Jet, etc machinery in them.... usually the biggest machines, but perhaps other smaller stuff also. But the point is to avoid the hobby folks with POS 9 x 20 machines....

Deus Machina
02-17-2012, 03:24 AM
I'm pretty easy to please. So far, I've found Grizzly to be amazingly good stuff for the money (or I just get lucky), but if I need tightly-specced tools I'll find Mitutoyo or Starrett or Greenfield. I consider Grizzly toward the top of Chinese-manufactured tools, but I still at least want the size of a boring head before buying.


Things like

Yea, I thought about trying out a couple of their insert tool holders, but they won't even tell you what insert they take - just a Grizz part number.
are completely unacceptable. Considering that 1"-shanked toolholders look exactly the same as the 3/8" ones that I need, and the only difference is the inserts. They often don't even state what size the shank of the end mills are.
I'm sure their cutting tools are better than many other sources of Chinese stuff close to me, but I will not buy cutting tools from Grizzly for just these reasons.

Black_Moons
02-17-2012, 05:14 AM
its not that we want +-0.001" tollerance specs on everything.
Its that we want basic information, For example with a chuck

What TPI is the scroll? What size are the slideways in the jaws so I can yaknow, figure out if my existing jaws might fit or buy some additional jaws to fit it someday before reciving it and measuring it myself, or maybe buy two chucks with compatible jaws.
Whats the weight of the chuck? how thick is it? Whats the max safe RPM of the chuck?

J Tiers
02-17-2012, 08:26 AM
Its that we want basic information, For example with a chuck

What TPI is the scroll? What size are the slideways in the jaws so I can yaknow, figure out if my existing jaws might fit or buy some additional jaws to fit it someday before reciving it and measuring it myself, or maybe buy two chucks with compatible jaws.

My feeling is that you will probably NEVER see this sort of info...... and that "existing" chuck jaws WILL NOT FIT any chuck you buy, unless it is the exact same chuck make and model. You have what is best described as completely unrealistic expectations there. Sorry to burst the pretty bubble on that one....



Whats the weight of the chuck? how thick is it? Whats the max safe RPM of the chuck?

You might have a decent shot at that, but since Grizzly probably doesn't get the same chuck from the same company in two successive shipments, and don't "control" those specs anyhow, they can't even provide that info.

If they actually "MADE" ANYTHING in their own factory, then they could control the specs, and would be able to provide them.

This is an absolutely standard problem with buying a product from a third party, PARTICULARLY FROM CHINA (or India, etc)..... unless you design it, and have it made to your specs, you have zero control over it, and are not in any position to "guarantee" any spec whatever. Even if you DO design the product and have it made "to spec", you must keep a sharp eye on the production to be sure it really IS made that way. Chinese vendors have a way of changing the design to suit their factory, often without saying one word about it.

Dr Stan
02-17-2012, 09:18 AM
Pappa Grizzly,are you out there?

Who cares. Just find a different/better supplier who meets your needs. Besides selling is not permitted on the HSM site which is exactly what he would be doing if he started posting Griz information here.

Number of Griz products owned - zero

Number of Griz products I will purchase - zero

Scottike
02-17-2012, 11:08 PM
On some things, I don't mind buying from someone like Grizzly.
but I guess the bottom line is that I like to know what I'm buying.
If it's a machinery stand - I want to know the height, width & length,
if it's a toolholder I want to know the shank size & insert size, it's not so much that it has to have particularly tight specs - I just want to know want I'm buying.
I've already been burned by buying something that uses ONLY the manfacturers components (Sears & Radio Shack are really good at that) and I try to avoid that when ever I can.
I don't expect every spec used in the manufacure of the part (but it would be nice), but it would be nice to know exacly what to expect when I place my order.

Edit: I do own Grizzly tools and have been satisfied with them, but they do post the specs on their tools
much better than they do do their tooling.

Boostinjdm
02-17-2012, 11:40 PM
but I still at least want the size of a boring head before buying.


This is the one I was talking about. I suspect it is 2 1/2" diameter, but I can't find any proof in the description.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Boring-Head-w-R-8-Integral-Shank/H2986

MichaelP
02-17-2012, 11:50 PM
This is an easy one. The head uses 1/2" bars. Take your rule or a dial caliper, measure the hole on the screen, then measure the head. The rest is easy. Just don't scratch your monitor. :D

P.S. I avoid buying from Grizzly for this particular reason.

justanengineer
02-18-2012, 01:10 AM
Who cares. Just find a different/better supplier who meets your needs. Besides selling is not permitted on the HSM site which is exactly what he would be doing if he started posting Griz information here.


Ahhhh...such as he does almost every time he appears on PM via "sneak peaks" and "previews?"

Don Young
02-18-2012, 10:20 PM
This is the one I was talking about. I suspect it is 2 1/2" diameter, but I can't find any proof in the description.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Boring-Head-w-R-8-Integral-Shank/H2986

Since the 1/2" bar size and 5/8" offset are the same as the G9321 head, I would assume that it is also a 2" diameter. Regardless of the actual diameter it seems to have the same capability and I think that is typical for a 2" head.