PDA

View Full Version : New shop, with NO electricity. = $$$$$



KiddZimaHater
03-18-2012, 08:25 PM
My wife has been house hunting for months and she
finally found a nice, little country home built in 1930 :)
And to my delight, there is a 20' X 30' metal building out back, sitting on a concrete slab!!! Both ends have bay doors!!! YIPPIE !!!!
Plenty of room to machine, and add machines to my hearts content.
:( ...Now the bad news.....:(
The shop has NO electricity running to it.
The house appears to only have 60 or 100 amp service.
Obviously the house and breakers will need an upgrade.
The shop will need a new line run out to it (50 ft.), new panel, and the entire shop will need to be wired for 240, & 120 circuts.
I'm handy enough to install the boxes, recepticles, shielded wire, and panel. But I would need to hire an electrician to inspect my work, and make the final connections.
What kind of expense am I looking at?

macona
03-18-2012, 08:28 PM
I would have a separate service going to the shop. That way the utility pays for the line to the meter on the shop. This will also stop brownouts from happening in the house when you start something big.

You lay the conduit down, they will inspect, then you backfill and they will run the wire to the meter base.

Black_Moons
03-18-2012, 08:29 PM
Depends how many beer you can get the electrician to accept.

SteveF
03-18-2012, 08:36 PM
It should cost $2,839.75. Or not.


Seriously, first off, do you need an electrician? In most of the country, if you are the property owner, you can do your own electrical work as long as you pull the permits, get and pass all the inspections (underground, rough-in, final). Call your local building inspections office and ask them what the rules are for your area.

Otherwise, make up a detailed work description, get the names of some electricians and call them up. One good thing about the construction business still being down is that most of them will probably call you back.

My shop is run off a 125 amp breaker in the main panel for my house. I'd have to turn on something awfully big to dim the lights in my house.

Steve

danlb
03-18-2012, 08:39 PM
It's not as bad as it might sound. Unfortunately only a local person will be able to tell you what the local rates are.

You can do the work yourself. It's not that hard.

There are a lot of little subtleties to the way you are supposed to wire it up. for instance I was shocked to find that there is a minimum bend radius for the wires to my sub panel. I was told that it keeps the insulation from cracking. Then there is "Percentage of fill" for the panels, junction boxes and conduit. It's easy to learn about, but there is a lot to learn about it.

In my town, a building permit was required for adding a generator transfer switch and the building inspector who approved the plans looked at them, confirmed the design was OK and even made a few suggestions.

Having the electrician make the final connection is a good idea.

Dan

Dr Stan
03-18-2012, 08:49 PM
Seriously, first off, do you need an electrician? In most of the country, if you are the property owner, you can do your own electrical work as long as you pull the permits, get and pass all the inspections (underground, rough-in, final). Call your local building inspections office and ask them what the rules are for your area.

That's what I did when I built my shop. I have a separate 200 amp service for the shop as the house only has 100 amp. I could have combined the service, but it was much easier to keep them separate.

BTW, yo may find this site helpful: http://www.make-my-own-house.com/diagram-electrical-wiring.html

Jim Shaper
03-18-2012, 08:50 PM
20x30 isn't as big as you think.

My shop is 24x35 and it took less than 3 years to fill it. :p

Electrical isn't bad to do yourself. I spent about 2K on wiring and permits all told, but I went a bit overboard with outlets since the walls are 5/8 sheet rock and I didn't want to surface mount conduit for anything. I also had to make the house a sub panel off the new main service and panel. I have a few 50+A circuits as well, and those add up when wired with copper.

Uncle O
03-18-2012, 09:01 PM
lots of info here too....
http://www.selfhelpforums.com/index.php

flylo
03-18-2012, 09:06 PM
I put a 200amp service in the house & ran from that to the shop & put a 100amp panel there. I always go 1 size bigger than recomended on wire & have never had any problems, dimming,etc. If you go seperate you pay commercial rate, double line charge & double all the other fees, at least here.

sasquatch
03-18-2012, 09:07 PM
Just do the installation yourself, if in doubt on anything, find out first,the info is easy to find what is required.
Then get the system inspected.

re: outlets, don't scrimp on outlets, extension cords are a PITA!!
My sons garage is 30x40 and he installed 17 outlets along the walls, then also one at each outside corner of the building , which is pretty handy if you happen to need power outside there.

If you bury a pipe with the wire in it, be sure to run a phone wire in it also, you may not need it now, but the wire is cheap, and if you need it in the future it's already there.

Enjoy your'e new place, exciting times ahead for you on these projects.

flylo
03-18-2012, 09:17 PM
If you trench it put a waterline in the trench even if you don't hook it up now. Call your electrcal inspector & ask what's required as the power co won't set a new meter without his sticker OKing it. At least here.

coalsmok
03-18-2012, 09:29 PM
I went with a seperate 200amp service to the shop. Put in twice the outlets you think you will need on as many seperate breakers as possible.

Ohio Mike
03-18-2012, 09:41 PM
The best way to get the service there depends on where the service comes from etc. I'd also consider doing the opposite and feed a new service to the garage and then tie the house to it. One of the driving factors will be is 100 amp really enough to feed the house long term (ie does it need A/C installed). You may be able to get a 200 installed and then feed the older box from the new.

Personally I like placing the meter base and a ground transformer at a service demarcation and then install a small service panel that would feed the house and the garage. Nice thing about that is any time you need to service just go unlock the panel and trip the breaker.

Mr Fixit
03-18-2012, 09:48 PM
If you aren't afraid of electricity :eek: (we all should, and hoppfully do show respect for it) you can wire it your self as a home owner you just need to follow the local city or county laws as to what is required.
I would recommend a 400amp meter main with 2-200amp main breakers 1 for each building, (see attached for an example, [/URL] (http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/btlv/Residential/Residential/Meter%20Cominations%20and%20Mains/MM0404L1400SC(FD)(S).pdf)) this is what I have installed and have done for others and it works out well.
The cost of overhead, verses underground is a little bit less but do think about any trees that could damage the overhead verses a 1 time ditch that you then could also put water and maybe even a drain line for a restroom or sink into the shop. I have done this and do not regret it at all.
A 100amp panel in the shop if you chose to, with you using more then 1 machine at a time I.E. welding and the lathe, lights, heat, etc. you will possibly use most of what you have available.
About wiring it your self, most of the questions that you have can get answered from one of the how to wire your house books @ home depot or even the local library, these should give you good guidance, and we here can help you through the process with tougher questions.

Feel free to PM me if you need to, Ill see what I can do to help.
Licensed Supervisor Electrician in Oregon

Mr. Fixit for the family :)
Chris

RussZHC
03-18-2012, 09:49 PM
Ohio Mike beat me to it...was recently in what I considered a really nice home shop (in floor heat, large gantry wood router, XLO mill just redone to CNC, smaller dovetail benchtop vertical, 12x36 lathe).

In chatting, a lot of the details are local rules and regs...for instance it pays to be close to a pole w transformer if you want to run 3 phase (here that often means house at the end of a block), in this case with no electric heat in the house and having a boiler for that in floor heat in the garage, they ran the main to the garage first (here provided there is only a single meter, the local service pays for any change, even if it is not really needed, you just want it) having it separate for shop and house would have meant the second would have all come out of their pocket and accomplished little...

Edit: as some have posted about 200amp for shop...here, though it can certainly be done, once you go over 200amp per residential address in a residential area, you are likely to raise some eyebrows, "they" begin to think business or something well past "home shop"

flylo
03-18-2012, 10:03 PM
Edit: as some have posted about 200amp for shop...here, though it can certainly be done, once you go over 200amp per residential address in a residential area, you are likely to raise some eyebrows, "they" begin to think business or something well past "home shop"



Or Pot grower!

RancherBill
03-18-2012, 10:28 PM
I'm handy enough to install the boxes, recepticles, shielded wire, and panel. But I would need to hire an electrician to inspect my work, and make the final connections.

Around here, Alberta, we have an 'Electrical Code Simplified' book. I would go down and get a permit for the electrical work and ask the Inspector if there was anything that wasn't covered in the book. I do not think there is. I would do it all myself, get it inspected and as the Brits say "Bob's you Uncle". No worries and no ongoing insurance hassles.

JCD
03-18-2012, 10:43 PM
It's your project, not mine. A couple of thoughts.
1) In out ares the utility co. charges each month for each service. So if you have a separate service (meter) for your shop, you could experience an additional charge for the meter each month.
2) running a phone line or any other low voltage in the same conduit as the service could get very exciting, expensive and perhaps dangerous if you experience a fault in the insulation in the conduit. In addition it is passable to experience noise from the A.C. line.
Like I send above, It's your project, not mine.

J. R. Williams
03-18-2012, 11:03 PM
I did the same thing as Flylo with my shop power. A new 200 amp panel and service connection and ran a 100 amp service underground to my shop. No problems. Most or many power companies will not provide more than one service to a single address.

Dr Stan
03-18-2012, 11:03 PM
It's your project, not mine. A couple of thoughts.
1) In out ares the utility co. charges each month for each service. So if you have a separate service (meter) for your shop, you could experience an additional charge for the meter each month.
2) running a phone line or any other low voltage in the same conduit as the service could get very exciting, expensive and perhaps dangerous if you experience a fault in the insulation in the conduit. In addition it is passable to experience noise from the A.C. line.
Like I send above, It's your project, not mine.

I pay something like $6.00/month for the separate meter. Well worth the reduction in hassle of combining the house & the shop.

2x on running a phone line along side your electrical service. Besides, who uses a land line these days? Haven't had one for at least 15 years.

danlb
03-18-2012, 11:22 PM
I've noticed that the buried services to my house are at separate depths. There might be a standard for what depth you bury water, phone and power.

While you have the trench open, consider running an ethernet cable for future network needs and coax for TV use. It's not as expensive as a new vise for the mill, or even as much as a face mill.

Dan

flylo
03-18-2012, 11:27 PM
I pay something like $6.00/month for the separate meter. Well worth the reduction in hassle of combining the house & the shop.



Here over 1/2 my bill is add on fees & a second meter is a much higher rate. Your lucky where you live. And mine is a co-op & we pay more than the for profit power companies charge.:mad:

justanengineer
03-18-2012, 11:47 PM
This sounds like an easy weekend project to me, maybe a single long day if you have a bit of talent and lack problems. The toughest/longest part will probably be getting the utility to shut off the power.

IMO you should simply dig a trench from the house out to the garage, and splice into the main service. Contrary to the opinion of some, a 200 amp service should be more than plenty for that small of a shop unless youre planning on some HEAVY welding.

No offense, but if youre considering calling an electrician to check your work, you probably should either let him do the job to begin with, or do enough research/reading to be confident in your ability.

Paul Alciatore
03-18-2012, 11:59 PM
DO check on the billing details before you install separate service. I was in a trailer court in Iowa and had two trailers, one for sleeping and one for a shop. The service was only 60 Amps so running both on one drop was almost impossible. Not to mention the cost of the copper between them. But I did wind up paying at least $30 a month in extra fees, etc.

When I moved back into my house in Texas (Beaumont) I started converting the garage into a shop. Still working on it. The house electric was handled by two panels due to an addition by the previous owners but even with two panels there was no room for more breakers. And the original, 40 year old box was an of brand with a bad rep. So I had both boxed replaced with one new, large one. I am on a budget so I did not upgrade the service, yet. I had an electrician do it: I could have done it in two or three days with no AC or power in the house, but they did it in one morning. Cost was a bit over $1000: box, breakers, and labor. You will probably easily double that if you need that long run from the house.

In using an electrician, DO get several estimates. I had a high estimate of over $3000 for the same job.

Black Forest
03-19-2012, 02:27 AM
If you bury a pipe with the wire in it, be sure to run a phone wire in it also, you may not need it now, but the wire is cheap, and if you need it in the future it's already there.



Make sure you run a cable for internet service to your shop through the pipe you bury. When you have a problem and need to come here to ask a question it will be nice not to have to go to the house! Also if you need internet authorization for any software you might need in the shop. The wire is cheap for these things. Adding it later is not so inexpensive.

lakeside53
03-19-2012, 02:58 AM
Running a low voltage circuit (phone line) inside the electricial conduit with mains power will get you a red tag out here. Run a separate conduit for LV, or... heck it's just a small separate metal building - run whatever else you may want later.

Black Forest
03-19-2012, 03:23 AM
Running a low voltage circuit (phone line) inside the electricial conduit with mains power will get you a red tag out here. Run a separate conduit for LV, or... heck it's just a small separate metal building - run whatever else you may want later.



Yes I didn't mean in the same pipe. Sorry for I didn't write that.

SteveF
03-19-2012, 04:19 AM
If wiring other than the primary electrical cable is going to be placed for phone, TV, security system, etc., it needs to be separated from the electrical by at least 12". The primary electrical cable (use direct burial cable) needs to be 24" down, then run a conduit 12" shallower for the CAT5/6, coax, etc.

Steve

tumutbound
03-19-2012, 10:30 AM
I'm always envious of these sorts of threads on electrical work where you US members just say 'do it yourself'

I have a fairly large shed (10m x 8m) which only has one power point! To get any extra points added, I HAVE to get an electrician to do it.
Adding about 5 double points would cost me in the order of $500. :mad:

Sorry for OT.

Dr Stan
03-19-2012, 11:10 AM
I'm always envious of these sorts of threads on electrical work where you US members just say 'do it yourself'

You need to make a friend out of an electrician. :D

SteveF
03-19-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm always envious of these sorts of threads on electrical work where you US members just say 'do it yourself'

I have a fairly large shed (10m x 8m) which only has one power point! To get any extra points added, I HAVE to get an electrician to do it.
Adding about 5 double points would cost me in the order of $500. :mad:

Sorry for OT.

That is the case in most of the country but if you live in the large cities you may have to have it done by a licensed electrician and there may be additional rules on what you can and can not do.

Steve

garagemark
03-19-2012, 11:47 AM
It is almost certain that two services will cost much more than one. Where I live you can't even have a second residential service on the same property. My shop is across the street from my house, and I have to pay commercial rates for power.

Were it me, I would upgrade my primary residence service to 200 amp (a nice thing to do for a 1930s house anyway) and then ditch a 125-150 amp service to a shop sub-panel. I would also incorporate a two inch PVC conduit in the same ditch (yes, you CAN do that) for communications and such.

Check your local laws and POCO requirements before doing anything though.

justanengineer
03-19-2012, 11:53 AM
I'm always envious of these sorts of threads on electrical work where you US members just say 'do it yourself'

I have a fairly large shed (10m x 8m) which only has one power point! To get any extra points added, I HAVE to get an electrician to do it.
Adding about 5 double points would cost me in the order of $500. :mad:


I would ask the question, does the government somehow record how many outlets you have in each room of every building? If not, it seems to be a simple matter of "my house + they cant see in = doing it myself."

We have a ton of building codes here, and often require multiple permits and inspections for one job. The sad part is that even the "professionals" do not follow the rules the majority of the time.

To quote the late great Smokey Yunick, "Its only cheating if its in the rule book AND you get caught."

rowbare
03-19-2012, 12:47 PM
I don't know if it appropriate to your needs but while costing it out you should look into the cost of running 3 phase power. It might come in handy.

bob

Black Forest
03-19-2012, 12:51 PM
I would ask the question, does the government somehow record how many outlets you have in each room of every building? If not, it seems to be a simple matter of "my house + they cant see in = doing it myself."

We have a ton of building codes here, and often require multiple permits and inspections for one job. The sad part is that even the "professionals" do not follow the rules the majority of the time.

To quote the late great Smokey Yunick, "Its only cheating if its in the rule book AND you get caught."


I hope you are joking with advising someone to break the law!

There is no problem until there is a problem. Then you will have big problems. I understand that the governments of whatever country we all live in intruding on the people with some common sense but it is the rule of averages and of course another means to tax you!

SilveradoHauler
03-19-2012, 01:33 PM
Lots of good advice above.

I have 200 amps going into my shop.

Power in my shop is directly from the power pole with a seperate meter, best way to go. Especially if you ever want to run a small business in the shop and need a clear sepeartion of business costs from the house costs.

As mentioned above, nothing in the power conduit but electric power wires, run seperate conduit for communication. And make the comm conduit big and pull extra wiring for intercom! A phone line is handy for the FAX.

Don't forget running a cable for the TV service.

While you are stringing wiring in the shop run some speaker wiring for the stero system.

I put 110 v outlets every 5 feet and do not have enough!

And lots of overhead 110V outlets for the lighting.

Be sure to map where the conduit is in the ground for future digging reference. And buy some of the red burial plastic electric power warning tape, put it about 1 foot above the conduit when back filling, then complete the back filling. This way, in the future, if some back hoe monkey is in your yard hopefully he will snag the red warning tape before hitting the conduit.

Run a water line at the same time, water taps are handy around a shop.

Permits and make it legal! One of my buds built a big nice shop but never bothered to obtain electrical permits for power, he bootlegged power off the house panel. So, it comes time to sell and move, no realtors will touch the property with unpermitted power in the shop and the electrical inspectors will not set foot on his property until he obtains permits and has a licensed electrician do the work.

Hind sight is 20-20!

mitsue
03-19-2012, 01:34 PM
I ran electrical, natural gas, coax, telephone, plus an extra 15 conductor cable for future alarm, smoke detectors etc. last fall. This is Canadian code that I worked to. Depending on the type of electrical cable you use, service entrance NMDU, Teck90 cable, or in conduit requires different depths. I use Tech90 6 gage, 3 conductor + ground out to a main panel in the shop. I had to keep a 12" separation between the power and gas line with a pressure treated 2x6 on edge between them. At half trench depth I had to install marking tape, "buried electrical cable". the extra cables, phone, network etc were in a separate conduit spaced above and centered in the trench. The book "electrical code simplified" by P.S. Knight is a great resource. There may be US versions available at you local building supply store.

justanengineer
03-19-2012, 04:49 PM
I hope you are joking with advising someone to break the law!


Advise to break the law? Who me? Never. (insert angel smiley here) Just giving a hypothetical situation a "what I would do" answer, hence the "my house" comment.

That being said, I need to go check rates on a permit to replace windows. That, they can see.

Dr Stan
03-19-2012, 05:37 PM
I hope you are joking with advising someone to break the law!

There is no problem until there is a problem. Then you will have big problems. I understand that the governments of whatever country we all live in intruding on the people with some common sense but it is the rule of averages and of course another means to tax you!

If you ever have an insurance claim due to fire and you have self installed without an electrical inspection you can expect the insurance company to tell you to go fly a kite. That was one of my main reasons for following the rules, getting the proper permits (flood plain, structural, sewer, and electrical) when I built my shop. As it is everything is legal. In addition if I had not followed the local codes the city could have sued me and forced me to tear down my shop. :eek:

kc5ezc
03-19-2012, 05:51 PM
quote
"2x on running a phone line along side your electrical service. Besides, who uses a land line these days? Haven't had one for at least 15 years."

Land line will work when cell towers are either overloaded or out.
Those of us that live where cell service is spotty or non-exsistant also rely on land lines. I use cell systems in the city and on the major interstate highways, but keep land lines at home for more certain calling.
Yes, it costs more money. We each have to trade off our needs and wants versus our funds.
Glad you have good cell service where you are. Wish we did.

flylo
03-19-2012, 07:46 PM
Glad I live on a farm. Ag buildings are exemt of permits,codes.inspetions. They only want a zoning permit so they know what to tax. Last one was $6.95. Don't get me wrong I don't skimp & always over build, overwire, etc. But it's nice not to have the cost & hassle of permits & inpection fees.

SteveF
03-19-2012, 08:06 PM
In my county ag buildings don't need a permit or inspections until they reach a certain size OR will have electrical or plumbing installed.

I remember watching an episode of This Old House where Norm Abrams and Tom Silva were discussing how to raise up a house off its loose rock foundation so they could replace it with proper concrete block wall and joking "Yep, they don't make them like they use to..... and it's a darn good thing."

Steve

sasquatch
03-19-2012, 08:20 PM
Don't think AG buildings here need a permit either, but installing an electrical pannel in one would require a permit and inspection.

lakeside53
03-19-2012, 09:55 PM
If you ever have an insurance claim due to fire and you have self installed without an electrical inspection you can expect the insurance company to tell you to go fly a kite.

They may raise it as an issue, but they have to prove it was the bad electrical that caused the fire, and they take their lead from the Fire Department report. Even then, it would have to be in your policy as "not allowed".

I can see nothing in my policy that doesn't cover stupidity. YMMV.


OP - get a permit... there is a big diffence between wiring new service and adding a few outlets. Around here you need to call the Electrical Utility for the meter and seal to be removed (or other means of disconnection), and a signed off "rough in" or "final cover" permit for reconnection.

uncle pete
03-19-2012, 10:18 PM
Well it appears I'm the only "Backhoe monkey" here right now. So if anyone would like to explain exactly how us Backhoe Monkeys are expected to foresee buried and un mapped services without that warning tape? I'm all g/d ears. Do you actuly think that's an unskilled job for morons? How about digging thru areas that have high pressure natural gas lines, main trunk line fiber optic telecomunications , water, sewer, 25.000v power lines, And all in the exact same area within 20 feet? Even with that warning tape, It's a real relaxing day.:mad: Ya know, Sometimes the total brain dead stupidity here gets to be a bit much that a very few people seem to be true experts at.Talk is dirt cheap.

However, One large and missed point about that trench. You will never get it passed unless you bring in designated by the code as proper sand that gets put in both below and above those buried services, And at a designated depth surrounding that conduit. Then it gets inspected, And then you can backfill. That's a 100% requirement everywhere. And a landline, computer, intercom ect always goes in a extra conduit that is seperated by X inches from the power conduit depending on the exact areas code requirements. Then again? I'm only a equipment operater, So what the F##K do I know.

Pete

J. R. Williams
03-19-2012, 10:22 PM
Pete

You probably know more than most inspectors and permit writers.

uncle pete
03-19-2012, 10:33 PM
J.R.
Thanks, But I very much doubt it. What really pisses me off is people who know less than nothing about it think they just might know something about the job. I've been running this stuff for almost 40 years and I'm still learning.
:D Yeah I know, Slow learner.

Pete

Arcane
03-19-2012, 11:54 PM
Well it appears I'm the only "Backhoe monkey" here right now. So if anyone would like to explain exactly how us Backhoe Monkeys are expected to foresee buried and un mapped services without that warning tape? I'm all g/d ears. Do you actuly think that's an unskilled job for morons? How about digging thru areas that have high pressure natural gas lines, main trunk line fiber optic telecomunications , water, sewer, 25.000v power lines, And all in the exact same area within 20 feet? Even with that warning tape, It's a real relaxing day.:mad: Ya know, Sometimes the total brain dead stupidity here gets to be a bit much that a very few people seem to be true experts at.Talk is dirt cheap.

However, One large and missed point about that trench. You will never get it passed unless you bring in designated by the code as proper sand that gets put in both below and above those buried services, And at a designated depth surrounding that conduit. Then it gets inspected, And then you can backfill. That's a 100% requirement everywhere. And a landline, computer, intercom ect always goes in a extra conduit that is seperated by X inches from the power conduit depending on the exact areas code requirements. Then again? I'm only a equipment operater, So what the F##K do I know.

Pete
Nowadays, anybody planning on doing any excavating anywhere has to have locates done beforehand. It's called "due diligence" (http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/legisl/diligence.html). Warning tape may be there but it's not guaranteed and there is a LOT more underground facilities without it than with it. A buried and un mapped service is not the same as an unknown buried service. There are many underground facilities that you are not allowed to excavate by machine within a certain specified distance and this distance varies by what the owners of each particular facility deem to be appropriate. You either daylight them by hand or use an approved method such as hydro excavating to find them before you dig by machine after hand digging out the distance specified by the facility owner.

As far as your "One large and missed point about that trench that's a 100% requirement everywhere", that would depend on local codes and/or who owns the buried services. It definitely is not an absolute requirement everywhere. Separation of different services in the same trench is as you state, it depends on the exact areas code requirements.

RussZHC
03-20-2012, 12:41 AM
anybody planning on doing any excavating anywhere has to have locates done beforehand

all I know is we are more or less hamstrung at work...property runs parallel to railway lines (4x), the railway right of way is actually about 10 feet inside the "property line"...operator, who was qualified (that has changed in the last 2 years or so here) had to go to CN class so he could work on what they believe is "their" property, so this now also means no digging can take place unless permits are paid up (to CN, not the city/province) any operator has been through their course and CN has someone in their employ within eyesight and watching/documenting procedure.
Primarily this means for us to dig a ditch 2' deep in an effort to control water run off (it has always been a problem, depending on winter/spring conditions) we have to wait for CN to arrange for their personnel, we then arrange for the operator w equipment and hope this all comes together so something can be done...put it to you this way, we are still waiting to hear back from CN that the first operator has completed the course to their satisfaction...
the first attempt less than 20 feet long hit an old pipe of unknown use (turned out to be an old water line) and a half a car frame which brought everything to a halt for weeks, who knows what we'll find this year

tumutbound
03-20-2012, 08:13 AM
They may raise it as an issue, but they have to prove it was the bad electrical that caused the fire, and they take their lead from the Fire Department report. Even then, it would have to be in your policy as "not allowed".

I can see nothing in my policy that doesn't cover stupidity. YMMV.


OP - get a permit... there is a big diffence between wiring new service and adding a few outlets. Around here you need to call the Electrical Utility for the meter and seal to be removed (or other means of disconnection), and a signed off "rough in" or "final cover" permit for reconnection.

The insurance company would drop any claim you made if it was proven to be electrical and any work was not done by a licensed electrician, Not to mention the fines and possible incarceration. Here (Australia) there's no provision for doing ANY electrical work unless you are a licensed electrician. To quote from one of the "don't do it" documents.:

Apart from injury or death, DIY electrical work is regarded as unlicensed electrical work, which is illegal, and has penalties of up to $40,000 for individuals.

A breach that causes a death or grievous bodily harm attracts a maximum penalty of $100,000 for an individual ($500,000 for a corporation) or two years imprisonment. If a breach causes multiple deaths, the maximum penalty is $200,000 for an individual ($1,000,000 for a corporation) or three years imprisonment.

flylo
03-20-2012, 10:16 AM
Here a homeowner can pull their own permit, do their own work as long as it's their house.

Black Forest
03-20-2012, 10:46 AM
Slowly I am putting everything that is above ground underground on my farm. I always map even the most unimportant water or wire. Including the electric fence wires that go under every gate or opening. I bury eveything in sand and then backfill. I use that orange and white plastic tape 300mm above everything. In the future when someone digs on my place they will think it was a land fill.

RancherBill
03-20-2012, 10:51 AM
Well it appears I'm the only "Backhoe monkey" here right now. So if anyone would like to explain exactly how us Backhoe Monkeys are expected to foresee buried and un mapped services without that warning tape? I'm all g/d ears. Do you actuly think that's an unskilled job for morons? How about digging thru areas that have high pressure natural gas lines, main trunk line fiber optic telecomunications , water, sewer, 25.000v power lines, And all in the exact same area within 20 feet? Even with that warning tape, It's a real relaxing day.:mad: Ya know, Sometimes the total brain dead stupidity here gets to be a bit much that a very few people seem to be true experts at.Talk is dirt cheap.

Get a utility locate! Here they are free. If you have to pay for them go buy yourself a locator - they are less than $1000. For the high pressure or the high voltage the utility will be glad to locate them. It's what the pros do.