[Measurment frackery] What we have here is a failure of humanity...

[Grind Hard]

So I'm assisting QC today as one of the techs called in. Not a big deal, most of our stuff is fairly simple.

I'm doing my rounds, I got my Steel Rule Of Official Standing, and my QC Vetted Dial Calipers Of Justice along with my Final Word 90 Degree Square and the Protractor Of Humiliation.

For the most part things run good here. But there is always one.

I pick up a part off the table, it is a simple bracket that first gets laser-cut, then a part-number stamped in it, then it gets tapped, then a "PEM-Nut" goes in it, and a "special hardware" item goes in the other hole. Finally it gets bent 90 degrees in a press-brake.


Look at the print, look at the part... measure measure measure... 1 and 9/32nd, I forget the tolerance. They were RIGHT ON THE EDGE Of being no good. Company policy is to run mid-tolerance not at the high or low end.

Ok no big deal... measure them... running a bit large.

Tell the operator "Print calls for 1 9/32nd. You're running at 1 11/32nds can you dial it back a bit?"

Operator says "9/32nds? What's that in inches, boy?"

I say "9/32nds."

He says "Enough fooling, I don't do metric and I'm not converting. Inches please and thank you."

I say "9/32nds. Nine over Thirty Two."

This evolves into an ARGUMENT. WHAT IS IT IN INCHES!

...I call my supervisor over, he measures it... agrees that it's a bit big dial it back to 1 9/32nds.

Operator is off again ranting and raving about the metric system, how he has decades of experiences with INCHES and DECIMALS and REFUSES TO WORK IN METRIC AND HE AIN'T GOING TO CONVERT NOTHING 'CAUSE THAT AIN'T HIS JOB.


*sigh*

We get the plant manager over. He says "Roy, make the parts one and a quarter inch."

This sets off a tirade FROM THE OPERATOR who proceeds to tell me and my supervisor how STUPID we were all he wanted was the answer in INCHES not METRIC blah blah blah we wasted a half hour when the answer was a quarter inch.


...


The machine trades do not attract alcoholics, they MAKE you alcoholic. :D

Anyway, we had a meeting about this... someone (not me) will be reassigned to a less taxing position tomorrow in the tumble-deburr area for a week. I was told that these parts are "wide open" the customer isn't that picky that's why the print is in fractions not decimals, and in the future for this part 1 and 1/4 is good enough.


*facepalm* *headdesk* :D

All I can do is laugh. Tomorrow I'll be back in my area doing my thing and all will be well.

[oldtiffie]

Once an inch (say a fraction) is in decimal form (say 1 1 /4 = 1.250") it is no different to a metric measurement as they are in decimal form from the word go.

Its just a matter of which decimal form you choose to use.

[Grind Hard]

Great idea. Thank you.

However I think this would have turned into an Issue no matter what, some people are just nuts and I am a Bastard. Says so right in my name. :)

[aboard_epsilon]

Great idea. Thank you.

However I think this would have turned into an Issue no matter what, some people are just nuts and I am a Bastard. Says so right in my name. :)

nut ..i wouldnt say he was nuts ..i would say he's a remedial .

and he's keeping a good man out of a job

I'd swap him with the floor sweeper ..

all the best.markj

[Black_Moons]

Hahaha. Thats a good one... Boy needs to be smacked upside the head with a meter stick if he thinks 32nds mean metric

I bet if someone actually sat him down, told him that metric means... that they never use those annoying 11/32nd fractions, he would said "Well why the hell am I working in imperial then!"

Good news is Canada and USA switched to metric long ago!... Honest! Our governments declared it so!

[Weston Bye]

......I'd swap him with the floor sweeper ..

.markj

Floor sweeper? What's that? Where I work, our production people clean their own work areas at the end of the shift. Keep it clean and there is less to sweep later. The engineering areas fare a little better, as cleaners come in the night a couple days a week.

Bastard's coworker wouldn't last an hour in our plant. Everything is Metric....
except me. I design and machine in decimal. They tolerate me due to age and results.:D

[Grind Hard]

I can think in both metric and "standard units", when I have to I push the metric mode button on the machine, make my parts then switch back to inches. Really the technology is there so you don't have to convert.

The one time I forgot to switch modes we ended up with a pile of scrap because I left the back-gauge in CM not IN on the shear. :rolleyes:

[rkepler]

Hahaha. Thats a good one... Boy needs to be smacked upside the head with a meter stick if he thinks 32nds mean metric

Yeah. Everyone knows that they're 25.4ths. 1mm=1/24.5 of an inch.

[oldtiffie]

Nope.

1mm = 1/25.4" (not 1/24.5")

Of course we all knew it was a "typo"

[Black_Moons]

Yeah. Everyone knows that they're 25.4ths. 1mm=1/24.5 of an inch.

Hahaha, Grind bastard, You simply MUST give that guy his next blueprint calling off dimensions in /25'ths, Just to watch his head explode.
(That said, working in /25ths sure would be easier in decimal then 32ths!)

[oldtiffie]

................................................
I pick up a part off the table, it is a simple bracket that first gets laser-cut, then a part-number stamped in it, then it gets tapped, then a "PEM-Nut" goes in it, and a "special hardware" item goes in the other hole. Finally it gets bent 90 degrees in a press-brake.


Look at the print, look at the part... measure measure measure... 1 and 9/32nd, I forget the tolerance. They were RIGHT ON THE EDGE Of being no good. Company policy is to run mid-tolerance not at the high or low end.

Ok no big deal... measure them... running a bit large.

Tell the operator "Print calls for 1 9/32nd. You're running at 1 11/32nds can you dial it back a bit?"

Operator says "9/32nds? What's that in inches, boy?"

I say "9/32nds."

He says "Enough fooling, I don't do metric and I'm not converting. Inches please and thank you."

I say "9/32nds. Nine over Thirty Two."

This evolves into an ARGUMENT. WHAT IS IT IN INCHES!

...I call my supervisor over, he measures it... agrees that it's a bit big dial it back to 1 9/32nds.

.


I forget the tolerance. They were RIGHT ON THE EDGE Of being no good. Company policy is to run mid-tolerance not at the high or low end.

The Company is at fault here as the tolerance/limits should be "tightened up" to be realistic and acceptable. The Machinist was correct if he did not go outside the tolerance/limits on the drawing he was working to.

[Grind Hard]

Wrong.

COMPANY POLICY is not to run at the high or low end of a tolerance, COMPANY POLICY is to run parts "mid tolerance" that is as close to the actual dimension as possible.

This person KNOWS this he's been here long enough. The tolerance is NOT the issue, the fact that he can't grasp basic fractions or differentiate between fractions and metric is the point of the conversation.

If the print says .060 +/-5 .005 we try to run as close to .060 as possible, not .055 or .065.

Think of it another way. If I'm running at .065, and there is an upset (say gas-pressure to the laser fluctuates) now I am running scrap. If I had been closer to .060 (say .063) that variation may not have caused scrap.

With our equipment, tooling and experienced workers we pull this off in almost all situations.

[Arcane]

You got to admit, nobody could make up a story like that out of thin air. One again it's proven that truth is indeed stranger than fiction! I wonder what he would say about calipers that read out in metric, decimal inch, and fractional inch? http://www.marathonwatch.com/products/item/caliper-digital-caliper-fractions_1/

[Oldbrock]

Does the operator leave knuckle tracks behind him when he walks? If so, that could explain it. Peter

[oldtiffie]

Wrong.

COMPANY POLICY is not to run at the high or low end of a tolerance, COMPANY POLICY is to run parts "mid tolerance" that is as close to the actual dimension as possible.

This person KNOWS this he's been here long enough. The tolerance is NOT the issue, the fact that he can't grasp basic fractions or differentiate between fractions and metric is the point of the conversation.

If the print says .060 +/-5 .005 we try to run as close to .060 as possible, not .055 or .065.

Think of it another way. If I'm running at .065, and there is an upset (say gas-pressure to the laser fluctuates) now I am running scrap. If I had been closer to .060 (say .063) that variation may not have caused scrap.

With our equipment, tooling and experienced workers we pull this off in almost all situations.

As close as possible to the mid size suggests a mid-range set of limits that the machinst has to achieve that is not documented.

Are all dimension +/- the same amount?

Tolerances are usually part of the design phase (from Limits and Fits tables and the like) but as the machinist is dealing in decimals (all mills are calibrated in decimals) the designer/draftsman should provide the actual limits (in decimal) that the machinist is to keep within. The machinist should not have to "work it out".

I can understand him getting pissed off if sizes are given fractions and he has to convert them to decimal - the more so if the nominal size - and even the tolerances are given in fraction as well as he then has two conversions to get the limits he needs as he has to convert both the fractional nominal size and the fractional tolerance or limits to decimal to work out his limits and then work out the mid-range of the limits - all in decimal.

[Weston Bye]

.... but as the machinist is dealing in decimals (all mills are calibrated in decimals) ....


I pick up a part off the table, it is a simple bracket that first gets laser-cut, then a part-number stamped in it, then it gets tapped, then a "PEM-Nut" goes in it, and a "special hardware" item goes in the other hole. Finally it gets bent 90 degrees in a press-brake.

I suspect that from Grinder B's description, the operator was running the press-brake, not a mill. My limited experience working around and observing people doing production press-brake work, was that their primary measuring tool was the ordinary tape measure, calibrated in... fractions (here in the States). This would explain the fractional dimensioning and tolerancing.

As an aside, it was amusing to observe the number of short sections of amputated tape measures under the shears in the sheet metal shops.

[mike4]

Wrong.

COMPANY POLICY is not to run at the high or low end of a tolerance, COMPANY POLICY is to run parts "mid tolerance" that is as close to the actual dimension as possible.

This person KNOWS this he's been here long enough. The tolerance is NOT the issue, the fact that he can't grasp basic fractions or differentiate between fractions and metric is the point of the conversation.

If the print says .060 +/-5 .005 we try to run as close to .060 as possible, not .055 or .065.

Think of it another way. If I'm running at .065, and there is an upset (say gas-pressure to the laser fluctuates) now I am running scrap. If I had been closer to .060 (say .063) that variation may not have caused scrap.

With our equipment, tooling and experienced workers we pull this off in almost all situations.
If you are running mid tolerance why not just drop the +- and only show the actual dimension of the part ,same result.
Michael

[flylo]

I would give him the card that shows the conversion so he knows it's not metric & the problem won't ever happen again. Sounds like he's capable he was just used to not using fractions.

[aboard_epsilon]

I would give him the card that shows the conversion so he knows it's not metric & the problem won't ever happen again. Sounds like he's capable he was just used to not using fractions.

print this out ..laminate it ..and pin it up at the side of his station

http://www.seoconsultants.com/charts/inches-decimal/

all the best.markj

[justanengineer]

As an aside, it was amusing to observe the number of short sections of amputated tape measures under the shears in the sheet metal shops.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Ive seen similar things done by our "tinners," but thought (was hoping) they were the only ones.


If you are running mid tolerance why not just drop the +- and only show the actual dimension of the part ,same result.


So they know what parts go in the box addressed to the customer and which ones to address to the scrap yard. GB is simply saying that in his company its not ok to run a machine on the ragged edge of a tolerance provided by the customer, which is a good and common practice in many shops. If I order 100 parts, my suppliers usually make 110-125 of them simply to give me the "best."

edit: For a production supplier, as long as the part is within spec I dont care. But, if I have a wide tolerance like +/-.125 and I get back all that are within a thou or two of the one limit or the other, it sends up red flags to our QA/QC team that either 1. I dont understand the machining complexity (rare but happens) 2. their measuring equipment is out of cal or has issues (again rare but happens) or 3. the shop is lazy or incompetent (very common). Regardless, I hear about it and if I suspect either of the later two, I likely wont send that shop any critical or big $$$ work. Being within spec gets you paid, being perfect doesnt matter, but being within reason and consistent keeps the customer happy and gets you the most in the long term.

[Evan]

(That said, working in /25ths sure would be easier in decimal then 32ths!)

I disagree. Fractional inches is simple binary, generally 7 bit at most since 1/128 is the finest markings I have seen.

[Black_Moons]

Regardless, I hear about it and if I suspect either of the later two, I likely wont send that shop any critical or big $$$ work. Being within spec gets you paid, being perfect doesnt matter, but being within reason and consistent keeps the customer happy and gets you the most in the long term.

Good points on tollerances.

And if you give someone a blueprint that marks out 1 7/32" to 1 11/32" as the size range and they complain bitterly about "not being able to work in metric" as the problem, You will definitely be demoting that guy to tumble-deburring duty for a few weeks while laughing at him on various forums, while the main point of the thread that something marked in 32nds is most likely not metric, goes unnoticed by those who do not pay enough attention to what the OP actually was saying who then go on to post about something else entirely.

Just saying... the original post was never about operating procedure where OP worked. It was about someone who had a senior moment and thought that 32nds where metric for some unknown reason (Yet 4ths where still imperial?) and then proceeded to rant and rave at OP and *supervisor* compounding his error instead of admitting/realising he was wrong, Or even stopping to consider he could be wrong after 2 people tell him he is wrong and the 3rd only says 1 1/4" to shut them all up and get 3 people back to working.

Evan: 25ths would be easy to work in decimal, just multiply by 40 to get thou.
7/25 = 280 thou. Took me a few seconds off the top of my head.
7/32 is... *pulls out a calculator* 0.21875. Took me longer with a calculator to figure that out then 7/25ths in my head.
Of course, I realise for most other things the power of 2 fraction system works well. Just not decimal conversion in my head.

[frankie]

How does a person who appears to be so ignorant get a job in a machine shop. Can this person walk and chew gum at the same time? Perhaps there is some truth to the idea that that skilled machinists are in short supply.

frankie

[armedandsafe]

A few weeks ago, I gave my mentoree the assignment to memorize the decimal equivalents of the common measurement fractions from 1/2 to 1/128. I can now throw any fraction in that series at him and he will take only a second or two to give me back the decimal. 9/32 is (8/32=1/4=0.250) + (1/32=0.03125) = 0.28125

This coming from a kid who claims that math is a mystery to him. :D

Pops

[oldtiffie]

When I was an apprentice, just about everyone knew the 0>1" in 1/64" increments fractional to decimal conversion off-hand. They were easy to find as they were etched/engraved onto the frame of just about every 0>1" 0.001" micrometer". I can still remember most of mine - but we always checked with the conversion table at the machines anyway.

[Evan]

Here is a nice, clean fraction to decimal chart for those that don't have it memorised.

http://www.seoconsultants.com/charts/inches-decimal/print

[aboard_epsilon]

Here is a nice, clean fraction to decimal chart for those that don't have it memorised.

http://www.seoconsultants.com/charts/inches-decimal/print

:rolleyes:

[adatesman]

On a similar note I once spent an inordinate amount of time trying to convince the person at Home Depot (who was cutting roll shades to length for me) that 3/8 was bigger than 1/4 (or something like that). I eventually gave up and simply told her to set it to that mark there and cut it. :confused:

[Evan]

Imagine what would happen if cashiers had to count change the old fashioned way. :eek:

[HWooldridge]

We always convert the production floor print to decimal inches so metric or fractions on customer prints get changed to a standard readout that everybody in the plant can quickly interpret. That might be all your operator was initially asking for - although it sounds like he may have gotten defensive at being caught not running to nominal dimension.

[Mcgyver]

I'd get rid of him. not so much for being at best ignorant, at worst stupid, but because of the crappy attitude.


Operator says "9/32nds? What's that in inches, boy?"

I say "9/32nds."

He says "Enough fooling, I don't do metric and I'm not converting. Inches please and thank you."
.


all round bad attitude, you don't understand you ask for help. When you realized he didn't know what 9/32nds was, did you try and explain or egg him on? There'd a temptation to do so cuz its funny, but if you did you're part of the problem too.

[jep24601]

My dad always told me 40thou = 1mm.

[Grind Hard]

Understand something: I am in my early 40s. I have been here since age 22... right out of the Navy. I've been through it all, I've seen three changes of management and I was one of only three people retained during the big layoff after we lost 98% of our contracts. Three people out of 170+

I look a bit young, I have a full head of hair, and I keep the grey under cover.

While technically I have seniority in most situations I prefer to put the emphasis on my experience and my willingness to learn/adapt to change. I think I've only ever brought up seniority a handfull of times.

See I remember when I was new here, and some of the Old Timers used to pull the Dread Seniority on me as a way to keep me from learning/advancing.

I refuse to do that to anyone.

...except when they call me "boy."

I don't care how old you are. I don't care if you were a lifelong union member at the old mill down the street. I've been here 20+ years, I am doing YOU a favor by inspecting YOUR work because YOU have only been here since January.

So yeah. I gave him hell yesterday, and I made damn sure he's assigned to less-technical tasks such as shipping and tumble-deburr.


I do NOT ask for anyone's respect. I have earned it once or twice, but I never ask for or demand it. On that same note however I will not tolerate disrespect of any sort, especially when I catch you out on a potential mistake.


Oh and just to clarify: We run a range of work, is checked with tape-measure/steel-rule and carpenter-square... while other stuff is checked with calipers, mics and protractors. Really depends on the customer! Some customers think 1/16th either way is fine so long as it is a shiny metal box, others want "simple" 90 degree brackets +/- .003 with the angle held to a quarter degree.

We do it all. :cool:




I'd get rid of him. not so much for being at best ignorant, at worst stupid, but because of the crappy attitude.




all round bad attitude, you don't understand you ask for help. When you realized he didn't know what 9/32nds was, did you try and explain or egg him on? There'd a temptation to do so cuz its funny, but if you did you're part of the problem too.

[bollie7]

I
As an aside, it was amusing to observe the number of short sections of amputated tape measures under the shears in the sheet metal shops.
Haha. I have a 600mm steel rule that I fished out of a scrap bin that started out as a 1 metre rule in the sheet metal shop. It had the first 390 amputated before I got it, so I trimmed it so that it starts at 400mm now. Still useful a a straight edge.
bollie7

[Black_Moons]

Haha. I have a 600mm steel rule that I fished out of a scrap bin that started out as a 1 metre rule in the sheet metal shop. It had the first 390 amputated before I got it, so I trimmed it so that it starts at 400mm now. Still useful a a straight edge.
bollie7

Measure once, Cut twice. Ruler still too short!

[smalltime]

One day I walk in the dieshop to see our QC guy Looking thru my box. Now I have two wooden boxes and I'm dammed proud of them. Come to find out he's doing an "audit" of all measurement tools in the building. My Gerstner is full of measurement tools, so I start getting them out for him to do his "check".

I ask how he's going to perform the checks when I come back with the gauge blocks. He says "what are those?"

Huh?

"They're gauge blocks, that's how you check a micrometer, or other measurement tools" says I.

He says, "this is all I need" and holds up his dial calipers.

I just turned around and walked away as I said "don't drop any of my mics on the floor."

True story.

[Astronowanabe]

ahh been there.
got a summer job as a gofer at a wood working shop ... crap ... 30 years ago

the owner bought a bunch of new-fangled E-uropeen 32mm cabinet equipment and we were going to make store fixtures for chain stores off in places with malls.
Some of the old wood workers there were amazing, retired boat builders.

the smarmy architects/designers would send "blueprints" in approximate feet

The machines/hardware were metric and the wood workers only understood basic fractional inches (and how it looked). they figured out I was ok with numbers so I got to change the pictures into cut lists.

I would write things like 4" & (5+1/2) / 32

instead of 4 & 11/64 or 106mm

They though it was great because they instantly knew it was
a RCH over 5/32 which is right there on the tape.

but theses were smart old geezers, just a bit too short on time to learn a whole different way to do the same thing...

your guy sounds a bit wilful ignorant , maybe it is permanent or maybe
that's a reaction to feeling like he is being made to look stupid with stuff he does not understand (yet).

you have the advantage, you could try to give it to him in terms he can understand and get use to before you start teaching him other names for what he now knows. or, maybe life is too short to try to fix stupid.


edit: fix stupid typo

[vpt]

I dislike the fractions, I always use decimals, that is unless I am using a ruler and telling someone else the measurement to cut... Even then I have to ask or say something silly like "its two small marks after the half inch". (Small marks depending on the ruler being used at the time.) lol

[The Artful Bodger]

We did a job in North Korea, it was the Koreans part to dig the hole for the foundation and they were somewhat embarassed when we arrived because the hole was not dug and they believed the drawings were wrong.

So we pored over the drawings supplied by the equipment makers and all seemed OK! We handed the drawings back.

They worked all night in freezing temperatures and dug a hole like a swimming pool when what was needed was something about the size of a household refrigerator.

The drawings were in feet and decimals (I will leave you to guess which country the manufacturer was in) whereas the Koreans had been digging in metres.