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View Full Version : Minor Tool Gloat Rope Knurls



Void
04-16-2012, 11:24 PM
Just got some old rope knurls. Also a nice knurling tool, shop made in 1908. Paid just shy of $100 for the lot:
Link to pics (https://plus.google.com/photos/108267203159823275484/albums/5732202980064286193?authkey=CK_vooeqr-7_Cw)

Also picked up a Moore Precision Tools edge finder in amongst a whole bunch of other nice stuff for $40. (No pics yet.)

-DU-

Black_Moons
04-17-2012, 02:16 AM
Nice, How hard of a material can you rope knurl? Or do you just use a form tool to cut the bead then knurl that?

Void
04-17-2012, 02:45 AM
Nice, How hard of a material can you rope knurl? Or do you just use a form tool to cut the bead then knurl that?

I dunno yet. I only just unpacked them. First I have ever had.

Since they are hand held and meant to be used with a tool rest... and from what I have read here and on PM... it is best to cut a bead on the work material with a form tool to the approximate radius of the knurl first, then knurl.

I will certainly use them on brass. Once I get the hang of it I will try mild steel. Most look a little used judging from the polishing on the sides of the wheels and they also appear "sharp." My guess is they are made of a high carbon tool steel (not HSS.)

-DU-

Duffy
04-17-2012, 11:14 AM
I think that in 1908, HSS was still a novelty, (if it had YET been invented!:D .)

uncle pete
04-17-2012, 04:19 PM
Void,
You may or may not know this. Your actual gloat is a bit past minor. There's still a few companys around that make a very limited range of those rope knurls in comparison to the volume of different designs that were once avalible. The last prices I saw, The knurls alone started out at around $100. And if I remember correctly. That Moore Tools edge finder now sells for just over $5,000.00 on their website. Nope, That's not a typo. I'd say you did pretty damn well. Officially? YOU SUCK!:D

Pete

aboard_epsilon
04-17-2012, 05:07 PM
what's a moore edge finder ..is it one of these

if it is, how's it work

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOORE-TOOLS-EDGE-LOCATER-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-TOOLMAKER-MACHINIST-INSPECTION-JIG-/360451246133?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item53ec918835

all the best.markj

Void
04-17-2012, 05:14 PM
Void,
You may or may not know this. Your actual gloat is a bit past minor. There's still a few companys around that make a very limited range of those rope knurls in comparison to the volume of different designs that were once avalible. The last prices I saw, The knurls alone started out at around $100. And if I remember correctly. That Moore Tools edge finder now sells for just over $5,000.00 on their website. Nope, That's not a typo. I'd say you did pretty damn well. Officially? YOU SUCK!:D


I didn't know that rope knurls were THAT much! OK cool. I was going to try and make my own at some point. I have read a few articles on doing that using a tap as a sort of hob. It will be fun to try anyhow.

I work on scientific instruments and while I don't do much with microscopes I have always found their knurling on the focus knobs to be really attractive. Also very comfortable to use.

One thing I like about the set I got was whoever originally owned them did actually use them and also took care of them. To the point that they bothered to make a fitted case for them out of the old key cutter box.

Since I posted the pics I have discovered that some of the knurls were made by F. Ecaubert. Only info I could find on that name were some old patents for watchmaking tools. The rest of the tooling is very nicely made.

On the Moore edge finder... last I saw on their website was a price of $5100! Which is just absurd. No individual machinist would buy such a simple tool at that price. I suppose a company might. I can no longer find that tool listed on their website. That price came from their site a few years ago when I bought a copy of Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy book (still on the site.)

As some people have said, anyone who needs and has the tooling to take advantage of it a tool like the Moore edge finder can most likely make their own. In fact, Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice series has the plans, courtesy of Moore, right in the book. I have a copy of the edge finder (not a real Moore, probably shop made) coming soon also.

I also have the magnetic edge and corner finders sold by SPI. I want to compare them to the Moore. I will use all three as the requirements dictate.

Now that I have one of my own I can divulge my secret for finding them. They come up ever couple of weeks on eBay with regularity. Problem is... if they are listed as a single item they tend to go for $300-$500, either BIN or bid up that high. BUT the thing to do is do a search for "machinist tools" or "machinist tools lot". Typically you will get about 3,000 listing for the former. Set the page to show 200 listings per page and look for a jumble of tools. Not much point if there are only a few and they are well organized. The Moore edge finder has a distinctive look and is easy to spot in a jumble of machinist tools.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Lot-Assorted-Miscellaneous-Metalworking-Machinists-Tools-/00/s/NTk2WDk1MA==/$(KGrHqFHJBcE9rNG8fKZBPcglnib)Q~~60_57.JPG Is the image for the one I found. Full listing here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150787270497?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648#ht_3334wt_1165

-DU-

Bob Fisher
04-17-2012, 05:15 PM
I don't get it. The concept, that is, how does it work? What in blazes makes it worth $5g's. hasn't sold ,so maybe it's not worth that. Looks easy enough to make if I knew how it works???? Bob.

rohart
04-17-2012, 05:26 PM
Careful now, Mark. Last time you picked up on an interesting tool in a thread you went out and bought one that evening !

Nice knurls, Void. The acquisition of a new tool can change the direction of your machining completely. Goodbye, hardened steel model locos, hello antique brass timepieces ?

uncle pete
04-17-2012, 05:28 PM
Mmff! You guys type faster than I can search. I just finished checking the Moore Tools website to see if I could find a direct link for that 5 g edge finder. And since it's already been posted while I was searching, I wasted my time. It doesn't seem to be on the Moore Tools website anymore. How they ever sold any at that price is beyond me. Moore builds some of the finest tools in the world. But over 5 grand for an edge finder? I know it was on their site about 2 years ago.

Pete

Void
04-17-2012, 05:33 PM
what's a moore edge finder ..is it one of these

if it is, how's it work

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOORE-TOOLS-EDGE-LOCATER-EXCELLENT-CONDITION-TOOLMAKER-MACHINIST-INSPECTION-JIG-/360451246133?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item53ec918835


Yep, that is it. It works like this:
Link to picture and explanation. (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/pros-cons-wiggler-vs-edge-finder-180871/#post1120863)

-DU-

aboard_epsilon
04-17-2012, 05:43 PM
Careful now, Mark. Last time you picked up on an interesting tool in a thread you went out and bought one that evening !

Nice knurls, Void. The acquisition of a new tool can change the direction of your machining completely. Goodbye, hardened steel model locos, hello antique brass timepieces ?

as a matter of fact ...i did spot one immediately for 30

but since i don't know how the thing works ..it stays where it is

ok i dont fancy it

here it is ..

http://www.radmachinery.co.uk/singmc.php/11749////MOORE%20Edge%20Finder



all the best.markj

V31JoePalooka
09-12-2013, 03:33 AM
Nice hint of look at the lots! I just acquired 3 lots of knurling tools and hope there are some rope knurls in them. I restore old telegraph keys and I am often looking for replacement adjustment screws and locking nuts. With one, or better two, I can make them. If I get one, I will make a matching idler wheel that will ride on the plain shoulder area. I been away too long and trying to remember old skills and learn new one as well as reacquire tooling lost over the years, much of which isn't made any more or really proud providers. I, also, will be making my own in time, but.....


I didn't know that rope knurls were THAT much! OK cool. I was going to try and make my own at some point. I have read a few articles on doing that using a tap as a sort of hob. It will be fun to try anyhow.

I work on scientific instruments and while I don't do much with microscopes I have always found their knurling on the focus knobs to be really attractive. Also very comfortable to use.

One thing I like about the set I got was whoever originally owned them did actually use them and also took care of them. To the point that they bothered to make a fitted case for them out of the old key cutter box.

Since I posted the pics I have discovered that some of the knurls were made by F. Ecaubert. Only info I could find on that name were some old patents for watchmaking tools. The rest of the tooling is very nicely made.

On the Moore edge finder... last I saw on their website was a price of $5100! Which is just absurd. No individual machinist would buy such a simple tool at that price. I suppose a company might. I can no longer find that tool listed on their website. That price came from their site a few years ago when I bought a copy of Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy book (still on the site.)

As some people have said, anyone who needs and has the tooling to take advantage of it a tool like the Moore edge finder can most likely make their own. In fact, Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice series has the plans, courtesy of Moore, right in the book. I have a copy of the edge finder (not a real Moore, probably shop made) coming soon also.

I also have the magnetic edge and corner finders sold by SPI. I want to compare them to the Moore. I will use all three as the requirements dictate.

Now that I have one of my own I can divulge my secret for finding them. They come up ever couple of weeks on eBay with regularity. Problem is... if they are listed as a single item they tend to go for $300-$500, either BIN or bid up that high. BUT the thing to do is do a search for "machinist tools" or "machinist tools lot". Typically you will get about 3,000 listing for the former. Set the page to show 200 listings per page and look for a jumble of tools. Not much point if there are only a few and they are well organized. The Moore edge finder has a distinctive look and is easy to spot in a jumble of machinist tools.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Lot-Assorted-Miscellaneous-Metalworking-Machinists-Tools-/00/s/NTk2WDk1MA==/$(KGrHqFHJBcE9rNG8fKZBPcglnib)Q~~60_57.JPG Is the image for the one I found. Full listing here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150787270497?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648#ht_3334wt_1165

-DU-

Optics Curmudgeon
09-12-2013, 10:59 AM
It's only $5100 for government customers. $100 for the rest of us.

JCHannum
09-12-2013, 12:30 PM
Frank Ford makes a rope knurl;

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Projects/RopeKnurl/ropeknurl.html

caveBob
09-12-2013, 05:32 PM
A couple good links for yet another way, from my bookmarks:

O.T.:For plane makers; how to make knurls by George Wilson (need to sign in to veiw pic though...)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148128-O-T-For-plane-makers-how-to-make-knurls

How to make knurls,with pictures
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/how-make-knurls-pictures-212670/

...hopefully tackle this project in the fall... hopefully...

Forrest Addy
09-13-2013, 04:41 AM
The funny gizmo that NOT a knurling tool is called, among other things, a "toolmaker's chair" (if you squint hard enough after about five beers, it does sorta look like a potty chair for a mouse sized alien from a high gravity world.)

Its lower face is precisely centered in and parallel to the opening's reference faces and the face adjacent is a very accurate square. When properly made. it's as precise a tool as you can find outside the measuring room. Plop it on a work surface and hold it firmly against the edge you wish to reference, then tram the opening with an indicator in the spindle.

There is also a corner version that has a precsion ground hole precisely etc to the intersecting work edges

In my very few times on a jig borer I was taught to use more primative methods: scan the edge to be referenced with an indicator, set a zero, retract the spindle, spun it 180, then place a slip on the edge to form the opposite side to touch off at the previous indicator setting, halve the reading with the axis and you are there, pending a repeat zero check. Lots of steps but it only takes a minute or two.

The same trick works on any mill, even an import home shop mill-drill. You just can't count on as many zeroes between the decimal point and the first significant figure.

These evolutions allow you to split tenths (0.0001") for edge location with the spindle axis. And, yes, scoffers,sneerers, and nay-sayers, there is work that absolutely positively has to be toleranced in tenths.

Maybe BeBop will chime in. He lives this kinda stuff/

TGTool
09-13-2013, 10:19 PM
The toolmaker who mentored me pointed out (to my surprise) that you can use the chair/edgefinder on ANY handy edge and proceeded to hold it against a hold down clamp. If the opening is .4000, as mine is, and you zero a tenths indicator carefully in the opening, you now know that your spindle is exactly .2000 away from any edge. Now you can motor around to different edges on your workpiece and when your indicator shows 0.0000 you know you are now .2000 away from that edge and can zero your dials accordingly. Blew me away! I'd always somehow assumed that you had to check each axis with the finder, but not so.