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View Full Version : Shop Student Expelled For Trying To Take Shop Project Home On School Bus.



Carl
02-21-2004, 07:21 PM
http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/news/012304/Local/ST013.shtml

ibewgypsie
02-21-2004, 08:49 PM
I worry about "OUR" shed machinist.

As if I don't have enough to think about. Not all kids have a grown up steering thier life.

David

Thrud
02-21-2004, 10:51 PM
A principle with none. And no heart either. Kids are stupid - I know I was a kid and I did stupid **** too worse than that, but I never got caught either. Times are not the same now. Kids are not like we were they are more fragile than we were - not the same, can't treat them the same.

PolskiFran
02-22-2004, 12:11 AM
During my senior year in vo-tech (1979)I wanted to rebuild my power hacksaw. It took practically an act of congress for permission to bring the main parts into the shop, and presidential pardon to take them back out. My shop instructor had to go to bat for me with the director of the school. He said it was a shame the school gave the motivated students such a hard time, but catered to the slackers.

x39
02-22-2004, 12:38 AM
Boy am I glad I grew up when I did. If a kid today did the stuff I did when I was a teenager, they'd lock him up for life. The country is being run by cowards with no sense of humor.

NAIT
02-22-2004, 12:56 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by x39:
Boy am I glad I grew up when I did. If a kid today did the stuff I did when I was a teenager, they'd lock him up for life. The country is being run by cowards with no sense of humor.</font>

It's a result of "zero tolerance" - which is forced by lack of authority. The phrase of the 60s and 70s was "subvert all authority". Well, the inevitable result has come to pass: A lot of growing-up issues that were previously resolved by lesser measures - maybe a few sharp words of warning from the principal, or a phone call to the parent, - or the strap - now can't be dealt with except by using nuclear weapons - expulsion. This is the result of the permissive and litigious society which teaches the rejection of legitimate authority.

NAIT
02-22-2004, 01:20 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
Kids are stupid - I know I was a kid and I did stupid **** too worse than that, but I never got caught either. Times are not the same now. Kids are not like we were they are more fragile than we were - not the same, can't treat them the same.</font>

"Fragile" becase they've been taught a victimization ethic. Once, in England, when I was about 10 years old and fascinated with machine shops, I went snooping aroung the rubbish bin to see if there was anything worth taking home. A policeman caught me (this was when they walked a beat) and told me to stand against the wall. He stood there - all eight feet of him and the full authority of the Crown - and made a show of taking down my name to haul me up before the magistrate. Scared the hell out of me and I thought I was in his book for life. He let me off with a stern warning, I ran home and never rummaged through rubbish bins again.

Today, if I were a wised-up kid, I would laugh at him. If he persisted I'd tell him to back off or face molestation charges. He'd have to either look the other way or call for backup, and his Sergeant, and a Social Worker, who would be obliged to put me in a foster home or risk charges of dereliction of duty. The cop would of course be suspended and face a Citizen's Committee of Inquiry. The School Board would have to hire a teacher to tutor me during my anguish because I couldn't possibly attend school while I was still in shock. Of course, both I and the policeman would have to see a psychologist for evaluation. I would never recover from this trauma, so I would have to sue the machine shop owner, police, county, and school, for intentional infliction of emotional distress which prevent me from ever going to medical school.

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 02-22-2004).]

brunneng
02-22-2004, 01:45 AM
When I was in high school metal shop in 1987-88 I made a hydrogen-peroxide powered rocket motor. 100 psi thrust at 30% concentration out of black pipe and a flaring tool I made. Then I wanted to make a model of a gernade but the teacher said no - so I made him a 50 cal black powder cannon for the 4th of july - his idea. Try that now.

winchman
02-22-2004, 02:34 AM
Had I, or most of the kids I grew up with, grown up with today's philosophy on raising kids and what's acceptable, we'd just now be getting out of jail. Our parents would probably still be there.

How we made it to adulthood is still a mystery. (Acording to my wife, even some of us who survived childhood never became adults. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif ) At the age of ten, I was part of the "work crew" on my uncle's farm. We were supervised by my thirteen year old cousin who ran the tractor and drove the 5-ton truck we (over)loaded with watermelons and corn. The scariest thing was the open blade saw (driven by a belt from the tractor) we used to cut firewood. We loaded the logs into a cradle which tilted up to the bottom of the blade. Truly nutsy stuff by today's standards.

When we got to the age of sixteen, we could get a license to drive the school buses. My route was almost 100 miles a day in a '58 Ford 60-passenger bus with manual steering and a four-speed stick-shift transmission. All that driving for $35 a month.

We WERE really lucky to grow up when we did!!

Roger

John Stevenson
02-22-2004, 07:05 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by NAIT:
Once, in England, when I was about 10 years old and fascinated with machine shops, I went snooping aroung the rubbish bin to see if there was anything worth taking home. A policeman caught me (this was when they walked a beat) and told me to stand against the wall. He stood there - all eight feet of him and the full authority of the Crown - and made a show of taking down my name to haul me up before the magistrate. Scared the hell out of me and I thought I was in his book for life. He let me off with a stern warning, I ran home and never rummaged through rubbish bins again.
</font>

I was caught be the local copper riding my motor cycle down a publc road to the fields at the bottom where we used to ride instead of pushing it.
He took me behind a bus stop and smacked the s*@t out of me.
I daren't go home and tell the old man because I would have got another lot off him but I made sure he never caught me again.

Unfortunatly the whole world has gone mad and we won't accept this nowdays.
My son, 9 at the time, and his friends were playing ball on the lawns of a big office block just over the road from us one Sunday afternoon, a regular thing, no one minded and just let them get on in full view.
Anyway this day one of them kicked the ball and it hit the front door, The door must have been a loose fit and it moved enough to set the alarm off, Didn't spring open, was still locked and all windows intact.
Well the kids just scarpered as they would.
I went out when I heard the alarm and saw the tail end of these kids going in all directions.
Next thing we had one police van and 5 squad cars 'hunting' these kids.
I went out and told the police what had happened and that it wasn't a break in.
They just totally ignored me.
A while later a police car and two coppers returned my son and asked my permission to question him.
I flatly refused, sent him to his room out the way and then told the police what arseholes they were behaving in this manner to a 9 year old who hadn't done anything but run away.
Again I was ignored untill I offered to ring the head of the local radio station up and ask him to pop down, in the mean while I made a big show of going round and taking the uniform numbers. As soon as I did this funily they had to go off onto other duties.
How can anyone respect people who act like this?
I had severe respect for our old copper http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

John S.

decoy91288
02-22-2004, 11:59 AM
I seem to have read a different article than some of you. I agree that treatment of children and childish behavior has become much more conservative over the years, but what the article describes is not necessarily childish. First the student who made the club (sounds more like a tire thumper to me) was not the student who "brandished" it at a car following the school bus. Left out of the story at this point is why the authorities chose to characterize the episode as "brandishing." Seems likely that someone in the car called the school having felt threatened. Secondly, the event happened two weeks after the student who made the club was instructed to destroy it. Sooo, he didnt follow teacher instructions, he smuggled the club out of class, and he gave it to another student with "a history of disciplinary problems."
Maybe what we have here is a sensationalistic report of a violation of school rules (most important of which is the failure to follow the teachers instructions). A report most notable for what is does NOT tell you, which we can only speculate. My experiences teaching leads me to speculate a pattern of insubordination and missbehavior that when taken as single events are not all that serious, but added together descibe those students who take up the greatest part of a teachers and administrators time -- time better spent teaching the students who are not trying the system at every turn.

spope14
02-22-2004, 12:54 PM
Decoy, you hit it right on the head. here comes my take on the issue as a teacher of machine shop for 17 years, and add 2 years of wood and welding to this, putting me at 19 years.

#1, the kid made an item that did not fit the bill or the instructions, and the item was NOT made to be a project, but rather a weapon. Granted a hammer, or anything can be a weapon, but the intent of the item was to be a weapon.

#2. The instructor instructed the student to destroy the item. Granted, I would have dont it myself, and followed up on it had I not done it myself by asking for the parts ASAP.

#3. the item fell into an idiots hands by the student knowing this would happen.

#4 the new reciepient of the item, with knowledge of the giving student whom snuck the item OUT of the shop used it in a threatening manner, and was probably caught before he would have used in in physical violence.


Here is the score here. The dumb kids did something with a shop item they made that was not right or proper. The end result of this action is that the shop looks bad, the admin over-reacts, and we get the restrictions we hate. All because of some sneaky little S&^%$s. Items will sneak out, you can never have 100% security against bongs, pipes made from items legit before, or the pocketed chunks of metal. However, I have been lucky in all of this...

I have a few policies that help me out here, and the students sign these policies.

1 - items of question are run by me. We have had a few items made in my shop that require special permission and diligence, but my method is simple. I have the admin approve the item, have the parents sign off on the item, and in the end, the parents pick up the item with the kid and sign off on it again. DUE DILIGENCE. The hacksaw project, Sheds chisels from way back, the rocket motor, and such would have passed muster easy.

2. - Laws against look alike weapons are set and firm. Thank the idiots that use look alikes to rob people. Thank gangs and stupid kids who threaten people with them. Thank two young men whom took 13 lives in Littleton Colorado. The grenade and cannon would not have passed muster with me.

Do not blame liberals and administrations for this - I am a severe conservative and damn near libertarian. Thank those above whom I mentioned

3 - If I think it is wrong, it is. The student has the right to appeal by talking to the admin, and having the parents on hand during the explaination and such. Things such as Bongs, throwing stars, numchucks, and such are usually stopped right there as the student really does not want to explain making these items to all involved.

4- I have a policy in effect for paraphenalia, weapons, misuse of projects, and stealing of metal. It is this. If you are caught doing these things with a project, item, or such, I will press charges myself in whatever way I can. Be this school, law enforcement, whatever, this will be done. I did this twice in my first two years, one for a student stealing a 1" dia. x 4" piece of stock from the lab and hitting a kid with it, and once for a project made by a student in a co-teachers class (bong). The tone was set, and the admin. knows of this, and will attest that I have walked the walk before. Sounds a bit harsh, well, it is my name on the shop door, and I have a good name thus far. The students know the parameters in advance, and know what will occur. The Plumbing teacher is currently pressing charges fot items taken from his shop.

I could go on and on, but here are th4e simple facts of the matter. If you want to keep good shops in your schools, it takes common sense, and diligence. There will be millions of projects taken out of school and training shops this year, and a very small ammt will be stupid stuff. However, the two or four idiot a&&%heads who sneak the unnecessary items will be the focus of it all. Four idiots out of many thousands wag the tail due to overboard response in return.

I have at least taken steps to prevent overboard response, though my initial rules are harsh. My "harsh rules" though actually allow for some projects being made that would otherwise not pass muster in other shops.

jfsmith
02-22-2004, 01:02 PM
Way back in the flower power era, I took one of those simple shop classes when I was in 9th grade.

We made a flower pot garden set, a trowel, a cultivator, and simple knife. Gee how times have changed.


Jerry

Carl
02-22-2004, 01:52 PM
Jerry, if you made that stuff in shop class now you would be under investigation as a possible terrorist threat, especially if you're within one mile of a school or airport.

Paul Alciatore
02-22-2004, 02:26 PM
I'm with Decoy and Swope. The facts support the principal. We did have liberal, "ignore it" policies in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even later. It lead to school shootings in the 90s. Even back in the 60s we had what I would consider an unacceptable level of school violence. The bullies just got away with it and it became accepted, even expected behavior. After all, boys will be boys. And the teachers and administrators just didn't want to be bothered.

Perhaps the zero tolerance does go too far in some cases. I don't think this is one of them. I think a bully and one of his friends tried to get away with this and they got caught. The consequences sound very fair to me. They need to learn a respect for authority and that their actions have consequences.

Three cheers for the principal.

Paul A.

spope14
02-22-2004, 04:51 PM
Thank you Paul. It is all common sense and responsibility for ones actions that this whole story leads to.

This very year, I had a student and his parents bring lawsuit upon me for the student "wrecking his car". The student passed by the shop, saw that my vehicle was not there, left without coming to class at all, and slipped on a wet road and hit a tree. Wrecked Dad's 2003 F150 that Dad did not know the kid was driving....

Funny thing, I worked with Dad many years in the shop. Funnier thing all, I was there, my vehicle was in the garage having work done, thus not in the normal parking space.

Yet, this was "my fault". I spent about 2K in lawyers fees and won in two hearings later, two days that my students were without me. This expenditure when my wife was very ill, and funds hard to get. This expenditure for an idiot who decided to "cut" a class. Dad was looking for a quick fix, the kid had no insurance, Dad had no insurance, this was a freaking mess...... Lost a friend over this one. TFB

Yes, I am a political figure in town as well, thus this was quite "hot", and I am sure this had a part in this....

My administration supported me to the hilt...I am a lucky man.

On another hand, in 1989 I was investigated for providing weapons for a fight (accessory to assult) for the 1" x 4" piece of metal used to hit a student. The little maggot pocketed the metal, and to this day, I believe the metal came from his fathers work, it was HRS, and all I had was CRS in that size. This one cost me four days out and probably 3K in lawyers fees on top of the 2K that was provided me by the NEA, which many people distain (I do not). NOT to mention about 75 hours of my life. I won, thus my policy of "I will hunt you down and charge you with whatever the hell I can if you cross my path wrong by doing illegal things with items from my shop". This one started by an administrator who was not that fond of the "manual arts", and suggested to the parents of both the injured student and the assulting student.

The current students know this history.

My current students are of the highest quality and trust. A policy of "common sense" and limits explained will weed out the morons...which we DO NOT NEED IN THE MACHINING PROFESSION.

Would you hire someone who stole items to make weapons, or someone who blamed you for their stupidity? Would you hire or work with a sneaky SOB? Would you put up with being sued for others stupidity?

So I digress, but the story at hand about a kid swiping an item, even when told the item was not kosher, and not following direction, then giving it to a JDB (Juvinile Delinquient Bas&^%$) and the JDB using it as a threat, and probably using it to cause harm, this is the issue. It is NOT limiting items made in shops, it is NOT liberal fodderahah. It is personal responsibility, the thing I hear so much about on this page, and agree and love all of you for supporting.

Although teaching has cost me probably 7K in lawyers fees all said and done due to a-heads, I keep doing it. I have a very liberal project list and possibilities list, including things that may not fly in other districts. However, the key is communication with parents, administration, and students. If something is questionable, I will ask, help you do it, and get the appropriate "permissions" and "hoops" set to do it. This is why I can do the items we do. If I do not believe it is correct, like bongs, throwing stars, little bats, brass knuckles....I will then call the parents, admin., and say "Hey, little johnnie wants to make a bong, what da ya think"

When the parents and admin say "OK", then the new shop teacher can help them make it.

Common sense in all of it.

[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 02-22-2004).]

Alistair Hosie
02-22-2004, 04:52 PM
When I was at school the teachers were allowed to administer corporal punishment themselves. This resulted in the pupil having to endure a series of thrashings over the hand with a thick leather belt called a tause.
It was about eighteen inches long by two inches broad and about just under half an inch thick it was split into two by halving a centre parting running up most of its length. The teachers often used it most of them were fair but there were some who lived to use it. Their very existence surrounded the joy which they received when administering it as forcefully as possible
I remember to this day a female teacher, I will not call her a lady took a violent turn one day simply because my pal, a lad of about eleven called Jim Telfer and I were amusing ourselves by rubbing a wooden ruler up against our lips to make an excellent farting sound against our dry lips.
She flew across the room almost seething with anger and grabbed everything on our shared desk and threw it around the room she proceeded to belt Telfer across the face with the ruler till it finally broke at which point she began to lift the articulated hinged lid of the double desk and forced it down repeatedly onto his fingers seeing the weal's appear on his tiny face she suddenly realised what she had done and stopped.
At the break for exercise etc Telfer went home to get his mother and to cut a story short she was fobbed off with a lame excuse oh did I hit you on the face I meant to hit the back of your hands The mother left with this lame apology and Telfer was belted once again for going home without permission. Sorry I am 53 years old in a few months and that still haunts me to this day I am not in favour of corporal punishment good riddance to it I say. It seems this boy was a bit of a handful perhaps they should be finding out why instead of seeking instant revenge Alistair

spope14
02-22-2004, 05:03 PM
Corporal punishment is wrong.

I set the limits, then if they are broken, follow procedure.

I got whacked a few times in school, humiliated, and demoralized through out my "grade school years" by a lady teacher who really disliked my mother and father, and those of "lesser standing" than she in the community. I will not get into this more.

However, I am a teacher, and a toolmaker as well. I carry the lessons of life forward. Be the best you can be, set a good example, set the limits, and when the limits are broken, follow the appropriate measures.

I also reward extremely heartily the good in people. This works ar better than negative, and at the end of the day, we all feel better for it. Builds confidence, trust, and skills....

The car wreck issue, this is the first negative thing in many a year.

I find that after a year teaching, I probably have about 1000 "attaboys" to one "what the heck you thinking of".....

Treat people as you would have them treat you. However, though I hate it, go after repeated stupidity and sneaky SOB's.





[This message has been edited by spope14 (edited 02-22-2004).]

NAIT
02-23-2004, 02:10 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by spope14:
Corporal punishment is wrong.</font>

Well, that's the modern "progressive" mantra, but it turns out there's no justification in social research for banning appropriate corporal punishment. It turns out the ban is just another liberal affectation. (No I'm not talking about physical abuse under the cover of "corporal punishment").

This was the subject of a scholarly article a couple of years ago (no I can't cite the source). A bowtie-wearing Eastern Liberal Sociology Professor wanted to prove the bad effects of corporal punishment in schools. Confessed in print that he couldn't do it. There is little or no good scholarly research against properly administered corporal punishment in schools (or in prisons), but on the other hand there is thousands of years of parental practical research that says it does work... Or take the example of Singapore, where some crimes have a remarkably low recidivism rate by world standards because the standard punishment is a painful caning.

The ban on legitimate corporal punishment rests solely on liberal self-righteous squeamishness.

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 02-23-2004).]

wierdscience
02-23-2004, 09:59 AM
Corpral punishment,it works and it does not leave people scared for life,unless they get beat with barbed wire http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Lets remeber something from long ago,the human arse is good for three things#1 sitting,
#2 looking at so long as its attached to a good looking member of the opposite sex and #3 corpral punishment,so basically if it hurts to sit for a while then maybe you'll pay attention to the teacher instead of looking at some one elses arse or behaving like one.But(pardon the pun)corpral punishment must begin early 1st grade maybe even kindergarden.

I laugh at all the self proclaimed child rearing experts,you ever notice the more people follow their advice the worse kids get.

Arbo
02-23-2004, 11:28 AM
My senior year in HS (1982)...I was commonly repairing hunting knives. I made alot of new handles in that shop class, and always made sure that the respective owner had a nice sharp edge before it was returned. My shop teacher actually condoned this type of awful and dangerous behavior, and I got an A+. I was also making all kinds of billy clubs for the trapping students. I must have turned a dozen or better on the wood lathe, and the only thing that ever got hit with them was a possum or raccoon. Just imagine that now...I would be living in a prison instead of working in one.

Alistair Hosie
02-23-2004, 12:13 PM
There is little or no good scholarly research against properly administered corporal punishment in schools (or in prisons), but on the other hand there is thousands of years of parental practical research that says it does work..

Perhaps a good argument that it indeed does not work is what you just said.
That it has to be continued time after time over thousands of years ,is that a measure of success? Good grief I would say that is a prime example of failure,The problem is that he person administering this so called effective punishment is judge,jury,and executioner,all in one with no room for appeal.Liberalism has little to do with squeamishness and alot to do with common sense.I never raised my hands to my children in my life and they are all good upstanding members of the comunity who have not gone astray .Alistair

NAIT
02-23-2004, 02:13 PM
Delete

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 02-23-2004).]

NAIT
02-23-2004, 02:16 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alistair Hosie:
There is little or no good scholarly research against properly administered corporal punishment in schools (or in prisons), but on the other hand there is thousands of years of parental practical research that says it does work..

Perhaps a good argument that it indeed does not work is what you just said. That it has to be continued time after time over thousands of years, is that a measure of success? Good grief I would say that is a prime example of failure...</font>

Not on the same kid...



<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I never raised my hands to my children in my life and they are all good upstanding members of the comunity who have not gone astray .Alist</font>

Many parents HAVE "raised their hands to their children", who have gone on to become upstanding members of the community...

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 02-23-2004).]

spope14
02-23-2004, 03:23 PM
Corporal punishment aside.

Arbo, you and I lived in different times than now. I respect that, and appreciate that. My woods and metals teachers taught me how to leather sharpen a knife to the keenest of edges. In Colorado I had a hunting rifle in my vehicle for after school dove and phesant hunting.

Somehow in the time between 1978 and 1986 and 1987, On a fateful day in Alton WY, a little known event occured. The first of many a school shooting. It was an adult doing the shooting, but none the less, the first I can recall.

I also taught in a Colorado school before then, doing a practicum, and there were many gangs in the schools, and the new craze was to carry weapons in school and brandish them about to the other gangs and non gang students. A badge.

Years later I was called upon to be ready to testify about a student I had had then who was involved in a murder during my time there, but alas, the kid had dropped out just before the event, and thankfully, the weapon was not made in the class I taught.

Add the new "drug issues" where the drug dealers and such were starting to carry guns, and the drug trade changed from the old "hippie days of turn on or tune out" (I did neither, chose a different path) to the hard core organized crime item and high profit "Miami Vice" vicious type of thing. It now filters doen to the very young.

Times changed. in 1988, I sharpened no more knives, and turned tham away. The issues started into my school.

You see, I could go on about the media and the negative and viloent influence on the kids. I could go on about the lack of parent involvement or the teaching of common sense. I could go on about many things. I could go on about the liberal issues of letting the kid run amok, and the idea that ANY type of punishment is bad as the PC People say from a few years back.

I could even go on about the stories my very own 12 year old child tells me about drugs and weapons in the schools.

I could also tell you of the afternoon, on a clear and very sunny day in NH when I was working in the school shop with students after school when my wife called and told me to watch TV. I can tell you this. Myself and ten other students watched in absolute horror as police surrounded a building full of students while two deranged young men took 13 lives. I remember too well watching the young man climbing out of the window to be rescued. I had an adult ed class that night to teach, and the students came in, and we dismissed class, for out of ten students, nine were parents of young children in the schools and they felt it important to leave and be home.

I can remember the feeling for many years after when we heard of school shootings. I can remember the student aprehended trying to shoot his girlfriend in our school, I can remember the student who was hidden in the woods behind my shop trying to commit suicide, and wanted to take his favorite teacher (I was one of them) with him. I could go on about my part in getting him out of the woods, but I will go no further.....

I could go on about the fear I sometimes felt when the schools were placed on "lock-up" even as late as last year (the student after his girlfriend), and the training I went through to deal with an "Active shooter" just a month before.

I can also go on about a student named "David" I had in 1997 as a sophmore, and whom in 1999 was found bludgeoned to within an inch of death by a railroad bridge by four other students who pulled him out of a car after school for just "looking at the wrong girl". David is at about 1/2 mental capacity now.

You see, we had a purpose for our tools then. I built some neat knives, a trap, turned a small ball bat and burned in the "Denver Bears" logo on it, sill have it on my mantle. I hunted with friends after school. We would never dream of threatening others.

I do NOT livre in a big city, and the students have responded against violence quite well.

Back to the initial post. The issue was not "Student suspended for taking home a shop project". The issue was a student who was a complete idiot who disobeyed the teachers and the law, who threatened people, and if not caught then, probably would have inevitibly caused bodily harm. None of us on this board would put up with being threatened with a club, even if it were a "shop project". I am sure that he would have to have that club surgically removed if he did that to many of us.

The issue was the behavior, not the project. Unfortunately, in my life this intertwines a bit as now I have to recognize the project can be used in the behavior.

It is a very fine line, and I have to walk it each day. There are some itenms that have special permission, and very strict admin and parental allowance to be made in my shop that others would not allow to be made. Some will argue that a hammer can be used as a weapon, and on this one, I just say "what is the original instructor intent". There have been classes - the little "weed 'em out" intro classes I used to teach (idiot dumping grounds from the old crappy admin) where I thought that making a throw pillow was just about allowing weapons to be made.

Thankfully, my admin is great now, and my students are of the highest quality.

I have a sign in my shop. It is at once a thing of focus, but also a statement. "You Are Here". Yes, I am there. The buck stops with me according to the law.

I do not know when or where, but life changed.

Carl
02-23-2004, 06:12 PM
The Denver Bears, my dad and I watched the Bears play in Bears Stadium before it got double decked and became Mile High Stadium. Now the Bears are gone, Mile High Stadium is gone, and my dad passed on about 29 years ago. Brought back some bittersweet memories there.

Alistair Hosie
02-23-2004, 06:51 PM
Many parents HAVE "raised their hands to their children", who have gone on to become upstanding members of the community...

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 02-23-2004).]

and just as many haven't so it does not prove that corporal punishment is the answer .Alistair

brunneng
02-24-2004, 04:13 AM
Slow down a minute... as far as the story goes, we have no true infomation to judge the kids on other than one disobeyed a teacher. So did a dumb thing. I think most of us did dumb things. Read on...

We haven't seen this club/bat. We only have the principals word that it looks like a club to her. We have no way of knowing if she knows the difference between a model bat and a club. Maybe it's a billy club, could be a prefect model bat. Police elected to not call it a weapon (researched other stories).

We also have no information on just what this kids history of problems are. He could be a real bad kid or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Both happen and we don't know.

I found other articles on this story and they don't all agree on just what the events were.

Some of the logic being applied here is incorrect. Some here have said - he had a weapon so he'd probably use it. I believe some of you have guns or rifles so I assume you're going to shoot your neighbors - same logic. Some of you have even had problems with the local authorities in the past (stated in various other threads), such bad histories of troublemakers.

It's a sad statement of society no matter which way it happened. Bads kids or overreactive principal - either way it's not good and we all lose a little in the end.

Jaymo
02-25-2004, 01:29 AM
Funny, all the guys I personally knew in school who did not receive corporal punishment turned out to be dopers and troublemakers.
The opposite was true for those of us who did receive.

There is a big difference between corporal punishment and physical abuse.
Slamming a child's hand in a desk lid is abuse.
Spanking his/her ass is corporal punishment.

Without corporal punishment, you have no way to enforce any of your other punishment options(time out, grounding, taking away of priveledges, etc), the kids can just tell you to "F*ck off!" and there's nothing you can do. Without the fear of receiving a good spanking, all the other punishment options are just empty threats.
What a great message for the kids. "If you disobey, I'll tell you what to do, and you can tell me where to go if you don't feel like obeying me."
I remember a guy who moved into a house one street over from me in the 9th grade. We hung out for a while, til I found out just what he was like.
He told me that I didn't have to do what my "F*cking old man" told me to do. He said, "All you gotta do is tell them to F*ck Off whenever they tell you what to do or try to ground you. Pretty soon they'll leave you alone and won't care what you do."
I told him my dad didn't play that sh*t. And that I respected my dad way too much to tell him anything like that. Yes my fear of a good spanking kept me in line.
That's the point. Without the threat of physical punishment(not abuse), all forms of verbal punishment are nothing more than empty threats.
He lived up to his last name, "Coker". He never received any corporal punishment and ended up going to Juvenile for coke in the 10th grade. And he came out an even bigger sh*thead than he was before going in.
Myself, I graduated, worked/chased girls for a year (there was a one year waiting list for the Aviation Maint. program at the time) and went to tech school. I worked as a mechanic in several fields(not aviation, you couldn't buy a job in that field after Eastern went under) until I found one that I enjoyed most. Got married, started a family and bought a house.

BTW, my father NEVER abused me. He knew well the line between punishment and abuse, and never crossed it. We're closer than ever.
If someone commits capital murder, you don't put them on restriction, or time out, or take away the car for a week, you fry their asses. Excuse me, you lethally inject them, God forbid you actually punish the evil in a manner that's actually unpleasant for them.
That'd be too much like punishment, instead of rehabilitation. "Rehabilitation", there's a bad joke.

NAIT
02-25-2004, 03:28 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaymo:
Without corporal punishment, you have no way to enforce any of your other punishment options(time out, grounding, taking away of priveledges, etc), the kids can just tell you to "F*ck off!" and there's nothing you can do. Without the fear of receiving a good spanking, all the other punishment options are just empty threats.
What a great message for the kids. "If you disobey, I'll tell you what to do, and you can tell me where to go if you don't feel like obeying me."</font>

I have a friend who lost control of her son when he was about eleven years old. She was a single mom - Hispanic, in California. The social workers in this area of Northern California (San Francisco Bay) are big on the idea that *all* corporal punishment is bad, and there were several widely publicised cases of children taken away from the home for what ordinary people will call quite normal non-abusive corporal punishment. The result of that was a fear instilled in parents that if they lay a hand on the kid, or even just threatened their child with corporal punishment, the social worker is only a phone call away and the kid will be removed from the home. This is an enormous weapon to put into the hands of the kid.

Anyway, my friend's son quickly learned that there was absolutely no way she could enforce any rules. The slightest peep from her and the kid would threaten to call the social welfare office. "Time outs" and "withdrawal of privileges" would have him literally laughing in her face, and she could do nothing at all. She did have brothers who normally would lean on the kid to behave, but they were under even more threat. The slightest wrong look from them and he could have them charged with molestation, and they know it. So they too did nothing. (There was a complication that at that time they were all illegal immigrants except the kid, who was born in the USA and the only citizen). This kid was so brazen at age twelve that he just demanded money from his mother for his weekly expenses. He bought his own food and clothes, ate what he liked, stayed up and watched TV as long as he liked. His mother was completely powerless to do anything about it. (Incidentally, he called his mother by her first name). His mother and I did trick him a bit one year to send him to residential military high school - the Marine Military Academy in Harlingen, Texas. He actually did quite well there, but the next year he refused to go, and again there was nothing she - let alone I - could do. He did finish high school but he got into the trap of buying a car right away, and working long hours on low paying jobs to pay it off. He attends, or more precisely drifts in and out of community college, now and then, but essentially his life is over. Luckily, he's avoided jail so far, but in all other aspects, he'a a major screwup. This is what bigoted state-enforced liberalism did for that family - destroyed the very basis of normal child-rearing.

[This message has been edited by NAIT (edited 02-25-2004).]

firbikrhd1
02-25-2004, 06:55 AM
Nait, In your second post you left out one important link in the chain you lay out...The kids parents would sue the city. Their precious child would certainly never do anything wrong. Many parents today don't parent. The expect the government to teach ethics, morals and values that years ago were instilled in the home, yet when the little darling gets in trouble, they are quick to lay blame everywhere but where it should truly be placed. Then they wonder why society's youth seems to be so violent and have so much trouble during young adulthood.

NAIT
02-25-2004, 11:41 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by firbikrhd1:
...Many parents today don't parent. The expect the government to teach ethics, morals and values that years ago were instilled in the home, yet when the little darling gets in trouble, they are quick to lay blame everywhere but where it should truly be placed....</font>

What you say is true, but what would you have her do ? Government does create a moral climate, which today generally undermines the efforts of even the best parents.

Ultimately, much of the blame goes to voters...