PDA

View Full Version : O/T Electric car nonsense on Fox



radkins
05-16-2012, 06:13 PM
Got a call from a buddy of mine who falls for every "free" energy device that comes along and try as I might I cannot seem to make him understand that it remains impossible to produce energy from nothing! He called with this he found on the Fox news web site,

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/05/16/chinese-farmer-invents-wind-powered-car/?intcmp=features


I call BS on both the car and the people responsible for reporting this nonsense, ok it's an electric car that uses "free" energy from the wind when it reaches 40 MPH to generate power to recharge the batteries, he claims it triples the range of the batteries- must be true if it's on a news site! :rolleyes:

high country
05-16-2012, 06:19 PM
I always get a kick out of the typical electric car crowd. Most tend to be large city type with limited grasp on reality. Do they forget the brown outs every year?......yet they want everyone to have an electric car.....lol.

bborr01
05-16-2012, 06:19 PM
Par for faux news.

Brian

Dr Stan
05-16-2012, 06:29 PM
Par for faux news.

Brian

Amen. Gives some real insight into Fox's inability to accurately report scientific or technological news.

radkins
05-16-2012, 06:47 PM
Ok so all we have had to do was add a fan driven generator to the front of the car to TRIPLE the range of the batteries, so how come all those dumb arse engineers that work for GM, Ford, Toyota, etc never thought of it if it's that simple? :confused:


So now I suppose the "big oil" companies will squash this brilliant gas saving "invention" just as they have been doing for many years! Think about it, every single time one of these stup.....err, "ingenious" inventions makes the news it mysteriously disappears so it MUST be true about the oil companies hiding them, right? :D

jkeyser14
05-16-2012, 07:04 PM
I always get a kick out of the typical electric car crowd. Most tend to be large city type with limited grasp on reality. Do they forget the brown outs every year?......yet they want everyone to have an electric car.....lol.

Actually, I think most of the electric car crowd is more in tune with reality than you think. Yes, occasionally the power goes down for a few days during a bad snow storm, but if that's the case you aren't out driving anyway.

Imagine never having to stop at a gas station again. Imagine no more oil changes or repair bills (except shocks, brakes, and tires). Imagine stable pricing that doesn't fluctuate $0.60 per gallon because someone farted in the middle east.

Then there's the fact that electric cars give you torque on demand, not after you've waited for your engine to hit it's power band past 4k rpms. Or the fact that the traction control reacts 1000x faster than on an internal combustion powered vehicle.

Disclaimer: I do not own an electric car, they are still to expensive. However, I drove a Tesla Roadster and it completely changed my mind about electric vehicles the instant I pressed on the accelerator. There's no more VROOOM of the engine, it's more like a ZAP and you're gone. I also like how my wife described it, "it's like driving a laser beam".

KiddZimaHater
05-16-2012, 07:11 PM
Haven't they been trying to re-invent the electric car since ... ohh I don't know .... the 1950's or so? :confused:

radkins
05-16-2012, 07:30 PM
Personally I think electric cars are a fantastic idea but other than things like regenerative braking and energy recovery devices that tap into otherwise wasted energy nutty ideas like this should not even rate serious discussion. This thing fails to take into account that the added drag of the fan would cancel out any energy it could produce to store in the battery, it would require a 100% efficient system just to break even but of course 100% efficient systems exist only in theory. Actually "energy it could produce" is a bad choice of words since it in reality does not produce energy but rather it simply converts energy from the forward motion of the vehicle through the surrounding air but where does that energy come from in the first place? The bottom line is the more energy that fan/generator "produces" then that much more energy will be required to move the vehicle forward, actually it would take a great deal more energy to propel the vehicle against the drag of the fan due to efficiency losses.

He claims this system extends by three times the battery range? :confused: I would think it would be far more likely that it actually reduces the range by at least a third!

Clevelander
05-16-2012, 09:28 PM
Yes I do find the claim of three times incredibly, however at around the 40 mile per hour mark "they" claim that wind drag is "not a significant factor on gas mileage". So my question is...is the new drag created any worse than that already produced by the vehicle? If not it MAY be possible to achieve a net gain.

Back in the early days of drag racing it was "impossble" to exceed 100 MPH, then it was 175 MPH etc.

Back when I was a kid my Dad drove a 1967 Dodge van, I can tell you that no fan could ever create more drag than that thing had to start with!

I suppose now I'm gonna hafta do some stupid test just to satisfy myself it's "impossible".

plastikosmd
05-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Cool story, thank you

GadgetBuilder
05-16-2012, 09:59 PM
Perhaps he could put 3 wind turbines on the front and eliminate the batteries? ;)

Rich Carlstedt
05-16-2012, 10:38 PM
There is a reason that little progress has been made in electric cars, since the 1910 Baker electric
http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/384606,16757/1910-Baker-Model-V-Electric_photo.aspx#photo

Yes, Electric is quiet
Yes, Electric starts like a demon
Yes, Electric is cheap ( for a short time !)

Why isn't it a perfect car ?

Limited weight carrying ability . Battery packs makes weight for the tires marginal

Charging is not a simple plug into an extension cord. Look at the amps needed for a complete charge ! Oh, forget the lithium batteries. even if you can afford them, are you ready to burn your house down ?

How do you heat in the winter ?

How do you aircondition in the summer

Stuck in traffic with your lights on, or cooling fan,,you may be there a long long time

Everything in cars like backup cameras and music systems take...you guessed it, power....and that is a limited source in an electric car.

And now the death blow.
A Harvard Physics professor calculated the energy needed to charge the batteries if all USA motor vehicles were electric tomorrow.
This is very important.
It would take 3 1/2 times more power plants than we have in the USA in order to meet this demand. And we all know the NIMBY s would never let that happen.
So the result would be rationed electric power..
Yeah , electric cars are good idea...not

Rich

I believe the video came from Sky News, a British Organization

smalltime
05-16-2012, 10:50 PM
Par for faux news.

Brian

Too bad it wasn't on MSNBC, then it WOULD be true.:rolleyes:

lakeside53
05-16-2012, 10:51 PM
Imagine never having to stop at a gas station again. Imagine no more oil changes or repair bills (except shocks, brakes, and tires). Imagine stable pricing that doesn't fluctuate $0.60 per gallon because someone farted in the middle east.
.


OK.. no oil changes ... but I'd rather change oil than the entire battery set every 3-6 years;)

Thruthefence
05-16-2012, 10:58 PM
Couple of years ago this showed up on an engineering site I visit.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/06/downwind-faster-than-the-wind/

Read the debate that evolved anong lettered enineers here:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=274009

The Chinaman's effort is along similar lines.


Any comments about "Wired" magazine's "stupid technological reporting"?

I thought not. They're "one of us".

radkins
05-16-2012, 10:59 PM
Perhaps he could put 3 wind turbines on the front and eliminate the batteries? ;)


Hey give the man a ceegar!!! :D Good point, wish I had of thought of that one!


I suppose that will be the next logical step, now I wonder why all those dumb engineers didn't think of that too?

dp
05-16-2012, 11:07 PM
These over unity systems are flat dangerous. Any time you arrive in the parking garage at work with more on-board energy than you left home with is a recipe for disaster. Why, imagine the hell to pay driving I-90 from Seattle to Boston and then getting hit by a bus full of school children there. The accumulated energy after that drive should be in the peta joules. You could blow a hole in Boston the side of Manhattan. :)

/sarc

justanengineer
05-16-2012, 11:11 PM
Actually, I think most of the electric car crowd is more in tune with reality than you think. Yes, occasionally the power goes down for a few days during a bad snow storm, but if that's the case you aren't out driving anyway.

Imagine no more oil changes or repair bills (except shocks, brakes, and tires). Imagine stable pricing that doesn't fluctuate $0.60 per gallon because someone farted in the middle east.


You missed a few major points. It would be nice to own a pure (non hybrid) EV, but most folks simply dont have the power supply in their home to charge one. It doesnt really matter if the grid supply exists if you cant plug the vehicle in and make it charge.

Beyond that, owners MUST change their batteries every few years, and other costs are insane as well. On mine, there is a recommended 3 year/36k mile battery change. 27 Nimh batteries = ~$6k a few years ago, which is why mine is part of my "collection" and not currently licensed. 3 battery changes in 100k miles = more $$$ than the fully loaded gasoline vehicle cost new. If you consider a significant loss of payload for a commercial vehicle (~1/3 in many cases), the cost adds up ridiculously quick.

Willy
05-16-2012, 11:25 PM
Looks like that old Chinese farmer is smarter than everyone is giving him credit for.
He's got a nice little electric car that he's able to pick up cute dunces with.
If she believed the fan/generator story...well he's probably got the ball rolling by now.:D

wierdscience
05-16-2012, 11:28 PM
Ok so all we have had to do was add a fan driven generator to the front of the car to TRIPLE the range of the batteries, so how come all those dumb arse engineers that work for GM, Ford, Toyota, etc never thought of it if it's that simple? :confused:




Of course the Article is stupid,they are talking heads not engineers after all.It's comparing Apples and Oranges.

First off it's not a car in the modern sense,it's simply an electric go kart.He stuck a window fan and a PM motor on the front as a half arsed range extender.It's pushing air out of the way,so why not have that air spin a generator and recouple some of the loss?Whatever,it's no different than the EV guys here adding a Honda generator to the trunk to top off while at work when they need to range more than 25miles from home.
He's got no roof,no seat belts,probably no floor boards,no AC,no power steering,no cup holder or seat warmers and I didn't see a Heater either.It's a four-wheeled electric Moped:)

Now lets look at the EV's produced by the major car companies.All are failures either in technology,sales or both and some are downright frauds committed on the taxpayers.
The Volt-production suspended,more units were sold between dealers than to the general public.
Nissan Leaf-less than 1,000 sold in the last 6 months
Ford Focus electric none sold in the last quarter.
The Fiskar-where did our money go and why is it on fire?:eek:

The Chinese guy needs some capital,I say give it to him.For another $40 he can add a roof and some Chinese solar panels and extend his range even farther.It still won't be a car,but it will still beat walking and would easily out sell his competition:D

radkins
05-16-2012, 11:47 PM
Of course the Article is stupid,they are talking heads not engineers after all.It's comparing Apples and Oranges.

First off it's not a car in the modern sense,it's simply an electric go kart.

I think you may have missed my point, it's not the vehicle itself it's the concept that's just plain dumb. But of course the real point was not even the car it was the question of why on Earth did it rate a news article by a major news organization?





It's pushing air out of the way,so why not have that air spin a generator and recouple some of the loss?


Because the fan would add far more total drag compared to just a normal frontal area than the generator could compensate for, he is not taking advantage of wasted energy he is in fact attempting to use energy to make energy. This is the usual pitfall when some would-be inventor attempts to build something like this, I guess the reasoning is that since the wind would be blowing over the car anyway why not use it to produce power? :rolleyes: They don't seem to understand that the spinning fan adds as much or more drag than a flat disc of the same diameter, in fact there would be far less drag if the blades were locked and not allowed to turn.

wierdscience
05-17-2012, 12:20 AM
I think you may have missed my point, it's not the vehicle itself it's the concept that's just plain dumb. But of course the real point was not even the car it was the question of why on Earth did it rate a news article by a major news organization?


The concept of an electric car itself is nothing more than a novelty,it's been attempted since what 1890?Still in the realm of tinkerers and rich folk who want a play toy.

And it made the news the same way every puppy down a well,idiot who tried to drive through 15' of raging river in a Toyota or fast food joint burning down.People are bored and there isn't much else to report.

Of course the fact we are talking about it here says what about ourselves?:D :D

J Tiers
05-17-2012, 12:49 AM
Sheesh.....

people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING this? As if there was anything debatable here?

it isn't about "pushing air out of the way"......or any other such horse hockey It's WAY simpler......

"Energy balance".....

If you move a wind turbine through the air on your car fast enough to make electric energy in its generator, you have to EXPEND ENERGY to do that.....

And, you have to expend the total power the generator produces, PLUS all the losses, AND you still have to expend the energy to move the car as well.

So, the generator produces 80 or 85 watts... which you have to supply in addition to moving the car.

The generator LOSSES amount to maybe 15 or 20 watts, which you ALSO have to supply.

When you add that all up, you have to put in 100 watts to the system for every 80 or 85 watts you get back. Plus you still have to move the car.

net result is that you LOSE MORE power than if you didn't have the silly generator and "fan".

You'd have better distance if you threw the fan etc into the trunk, or better yet, the ditch.

Thank you, pull ahead please.............

TGTool
05-17-2012, 12:58 AM
I hate to break the news to this Chinese guy since he's so excited and to Fox being so far behind the curve, but great minds and scientists pushing the envelope are on the verge of unleashing unlimited free energy (http://www.halexandria.org/dward154.htm). These guys can explain it much better than I can.

In fact, I can't seem to explain it at all. My sister buys into this and I can't seem to make any headway pointing out the paucity of real support or concrete information other than the assertions that "this is true". :rolleyes:

dp
05-17-2012, 01:13 AM
Par for faux news.

Brian

Bit of a crock to kick only Fox when it is being trumpeted around the world by news agencies, globally. Better to say "par for news reporting". It probably indicates a quiet news day and nothing more.

beanbag
05-17-2012, 01:15 AM
I think you were supposed to tell from the silly music that they think this car is silly as well.

beanbag
05-17-2012, 01:26 AM
I hate to break the news to this Chinese guy since he's so excited and to Fox being so far behind the curve, but great minds and scientists pushing the envelope are on the verge of unleashing unlimited free energy (http://www.halexandria.org/dward154.htm). These guys can explain it much better than I can.


I would like to point out that this is a fraud website (in case that was not already clear). You can tell by the structure of the articles. They start off by saying things that are true, then saying things that are true, but not relevant, then saying things that are vague, then saying things that are false, and finally ending with making stuff up.

high country
05-17-2012, 01:56 AM
Actually, I think most of the electric car crowd is more in tune with reality than you think. Yes, occasionally the power goes down for a few days during a bad snow storm, but if that's the case you aren't out driving anyway.

Imagine never having to stop at a gas station again. Imagine no more oil changes or repair bills (except shocks, brakes, and tires). Imagine stable pricing that doesn't fluctuate $0.60 per gallon because someone farted in the middle east.

Then there's the fact that electric cars give you torque on demand, not after you've waited for your engine to hit it's power band past 4k rpms. Or the fact that the traction control reacts 1000x faster than on an internal combustion powered vehicle.

Disclaimer: I do not own an electric car, they are still to expensive. However, I drove a Tesla Roadster and it completely changed my mind about electric vehicles the instant I pressed on the accelerator. There's no more VROOOM of the engine, it's more like a ZAP and you're gone. I also like how my wife described it, "it's like driving a laser beam".

Something about having #2000 of hazardous material in every car, the inability to just pull in and fill up, the need to have even more electronics on a vehicle turns me off. I personally don't need a lot more power than our tdi jetta has and 13 gallons of diesel takes me into 600 miles pretty easily. I would rather change oil than batteries.....the kicker is, I live where you could drive all day and never see a power pole or gas station....I can carry spare gas.

We get 3 foot snow storms most years, I still have to drive 28 miles to work.

Now were I to be where I lived inner city, I could see it your way. But out here, electric cars better have a backup plan or stick to town.

wierdscience
05-17-2012, 02:17 AM
Sheesh.....

people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING this? As if there was anything debatable here?

it isn't about "pushing air out of the way"......or any other such horse hockey It's WAY simpler......

"Energy balance".....


Thank you, pull ahead please.............

Jerry,we all already know this,it's just a Wednesday night nothing to do post/reply thing here.

Electric cars are the textbook definition of insanity.You know the one repeating the same experiment over and over and expecting a different result?
Well to expand on that there is actually a result.The experiment becomes increasingly more expensive.:)

radkins
05-17-2012, 08:54 AM
The concept of an electric car itself is nothing more than a novelty,it's been attempted since what 1890?Still in the realm of tinkerers and rich folk who want a play toy.



Unfortunately it seems it's that way and very well may be destined to stay that way.

My cousin is into all kinds of nonsense and is often calling me (another guy sent me the link to the car however) with "proof" that some of the ideas he talks about are in fact possible, he is always trying to show me the newest "free energy" device and fully believes that big oil is behind keeping this technology suppressed. It's amazing just how many people cannot understand that it is impossible for a generator to produce more power than it takes to run it or that electricity cannot be simply "stepped up" (increased Wattage) by some kind of solid state device. The local power company a few years ago went around to shopping centers with a demo set up that was aimed at educating people on energy conservation, it was simply an exercise bike with a small generator connected to a series of 100 Watt light bulbs and people were invited to pedal the thing while the attendant progressively turned on the bulbs. A lot of people, most in fact, were shocked (sorry, pun intended but I couldn't resist that one! :D ) to see just how much effort it took to power just one 100 Watt bulb, never mind three or four, but even more shocking (ok I won't do it again, :rolleyes: ) was that most people simply could not understand why the bike got harder to pedal as more lights were turned on!.

J Tiers
05-17-2012, 09:29 AM
Jerry,we all already know this.



Apparently not......

You evidently watch Fox, and Fox apparently KNOWS that "you" (the generalized Fox viewer, not *you* personally and specifically) are stupid enough to believe the slanted and carefully edited stuff they hand out...... Fox makes NO real effort to disguise the fact that their edited news is edited and 'redacted" to serve a political purpose.... the other networks at least provide some general coverage, whatever their slant is......

So it is hardly a surprise if Fox has 'science" coverage that is totally unscientific.......




Electric cars are the textbook definition of insanity.You know the one repeating the same experiment over and over and expecting a different result?
Well to expand on that there is actually a result.The experiment becomes increasingly more expensive.:)


Wrong....

Electric cars DO make sense..... for certain specific situations.

When you KNOW the mileage/route/energy needed, and it is doable, then electric makes sense. You can confidently KNOW that you need that, only that, and plan accordingly.

Or are you perhaps saying that several million electric forklift trucks actually do not work, and were bought mistakenly , all of them are sitting around unusable?

For a commuter, an electric car can make good sense.... from home to *that place*, and then back. Every day of the week.

Particularly since so much of commuter driving is spent stopped in traffic.... a gas car is idling, spewing exhaust and burning 3 dollar gas (around here... in SF it might cost 5), but the electric car is using only a tiny background current while stopped in traffic. Hybrids....maybe, but only a few well designed hybrids (Prius, etc) actually do any better than a standard vehicle. Many GM and Ford hybrids get mileage essentially indistinguishable from a standard vehicle.

Where the electric car makes NO sense is when the need is unknown..... or at least not closely specified.... if you are a salesman, you (and your employer) don't want to hear about NOT getting to the big prospective new client because your battery is flat, and it will take until tomorrow to recharge..... You want and need to be able to stop, "get gas", and proceed on your way.

Even for many commuters, it is a problem, because range on useful vehicles is STILL not sufficient to allow ANY "extra" usage for many folks.... Run an errand on the way home and you may risk being stranded if your one-way commute is over 20 miles or so, because your range is perhaps only 60 miles. (charging stations will cost money, and are NOT happening except in the few"green demonstration areas".)

In St Louis, it is EASY to put on 100 miles without leaving the metro area.... you couldn't get from one suburb to another and back in an electric car, although you COULD commute to downtown and back pretty easily. In LA it would be ridiculous to even think about.

NOT useful as as a primary or "only" car.

The deal about electric plants is stupid..... Most folks can't use an electric car, so charging demand is going to be far lower. Plus, that lower demand is substantially overnight, when usage is much lower. That , along with the fact that most cannot use an electric, limits the power grid problem, if the "problem" even exists at all, outside of the "most adverse scenario" in the mind of the strongest opponent of the electric car idea.

vpt
05-17-2012, 09:46 AM
Electric is great and all till it comes time to change the batteries. That is why electric fork lifts, golf carts, and the like go for pennies compared to the same model sitting next to it with a gas engine.

When buying our golf cart the salesman would not give up on trying to sell his electric carts that he seamed to have to many of. What caught my eye was the stacks and stacks of junk batteries on the pallets in his shop. Even with the electric carts being less than half price of the gassers and having "new batteries" we went with the gasser.

Found out that one tank of gas in the cart lasts a year! After seeing how little gas golf carts use they should make it legal to use them in towns on 25mph speed limit roads only. Would save huge amounts of fuel!

radkins
05-17-2012, 10:11 AM
Electric is great and all till it comes time to change the batteries. That is why electric fork lifts, golf carts, and the like go for pennies compared to the same model sitting next to it with a gas engine.


I have to agree with your assessment on the forklifts, most are bought as a necessary evil not as a better or cheaper alternative the IC engine version. We bought ours because it runs in confined areas most of the time and that's the same reason most other owners opted for them.

wierdscience
05-17-2012, 10:22 AM
Apparently not......
So it is hardly a surprise if Fox has 'science" coverage that is totally unscientific.......

Also ABC,CBS,CNN,MSNBC etc,etc.....all fail miserably,Jerry,not just Fox. Stupid insult BTW:rolleyes:



Wrong....

Electric cars DO make sense..... for certain specific situations.

Golf carts and that's about it.



Or are you perhaps saying that several million electric forklift trucks actually do not work, and were bought mistakenly , all of them are sitting around unusable?

Apples and Oranges,just like FOX Jerry.Not many electric forklifts have AC,ever leave glass smooth concrete,ever exceed 15mph etc,etc.If they had to they wouldn't exist in any real numbers.Sure,there are some limited AT models availible,but like their little pallet jack cousins they aren't cheap either.


For a commuter, an electric car can make good sense.... from home to *that place*, and then back. Every day of the week.
Hybrids....maybe, but only a few well designed hybrids (Prius, etc) actually do any better than a standard vehicle. Many GM and Ford hybrids get mileage essentially indistinguishable from a standard vehicle.


Electrics only make sense in limited applications.Forklifts,floor polishers,electric scooters,bicycles,motorcycles and golf carts.Cars for general transportation no.Unless you want to sweat or freeze while driving them.

Both electrics and hybrids have the same Achilles heel,added complexity.There is no way around it and it costs money,lots more of it.As a result we have yet another series of commercial,very expensive failures.It's the main reason electrics aren't selling and most Hybrid owners say they won't buy another,they simply are not cost effective.

Thruthefence
05-17-2012, 10:47 AM
"I think you may have missed my point, it's not the vehicle itself it's the concept that's just plain dumb. But of course the real point was not even the car it was the question of why on Earth did it rate a news article by a major news organization?"

I think YOU are missing the point. I believe Fox news was not trumpeting some technological breakthrough, but subtly (but obviously over your head, however) poking fun at the entire Electric car mania.

Sorta like the "Onion" would do.

Now lets get to the REAL point of the original post:

It allows someone to take a poke at Fox news, with your Faux sense of technological superiority, because you don't like their political stance.

Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!!!! See how dumb Fox is!!!!!

Let's leave this crap over on "Manufacturing in America & Europe"

Harvey Melvin Richards
05-17-2012, 11:08 AM
I think it's funny that so many here are whining about the the technology involved in an electric car. The batteries wear out, they have no range, it will get stuck.

Why don't you all go back 100+ years and listen to what the peanut gallery had to say about those damned internal combustion machines. Or listen to what was originally said about computers, TV or the internet. Evolve people, look forward.

I'm not saying that the original post is a sound idea, but as technology advances (without the help of the arm chair scientists), electric cars (or some other new technology) will look better and better. Internal combustion is a very inefficient way to propel a vehicle.

high country
05-17-2012, 11:26 AM
a hundred years ago, wind powered water wells around here, now we have literally hundreds if not thousands of wind turbines to generate power. They say the break even point is 20 years per turbine before it actually makes money. What about increases in taxes, labor to maintain, parts to maintain....etc. In the end they will likely not earn their keep for half a century and who knows how long they last.....but like soleindra, it was a great way to get a huge stack of Obama bucks.

Technology improvement is great, losing touch with reality to get there is silly. We spend pooptillions of dollars to learn about other planets, some may even support life.....but so what, we already whine about an hour extra in an airplane.....imagine being cramped up in a rocket for 3 months.

We are losing touch with how to grow crops, build things, make lumber from a mountain of trees......and as fast as technology will make life easy, the lack of skilled future labor forces will make it rough.

radkins
05-17-2012, 11:28 AM
"I think you may have missed my point, it's not the vehicle itself it's the concept that's just plain dumb. But of course the real point was not even the car it was the question of why on Earth did it rate a news article by a major news organization?"

I think YOU are missing the point. I believe Fox news was not trumpeting some technological breakthrough, but subtly (but obviously over your head, however) poking fun at the entire Electric car mania.

Sorta like the "Onion" would do.

Now lets get to the REAL point of the original post:

It allows someone to take a poke at Fox news, with your Faux sense of technological superiority, because you don't like their political stance.

Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!!!! See how dumb Fox is!!!!!

Let's leave this crap over on "Manufacturing in America & Europe"



And your response is just plain stupid! I was not poking anything at Fox and in fact Fox is my go-to news channel. You were presumptive and uncalled for rude and on top of that you were wrong!