PDA

View Full Version : Propane vs MAPP substitute



beanbag
06-10-2012, 05:19 AM
It turns out that real MAPP gas isn't made anymore, and now it is propane plus propylene. I'm planning to get one of those bernzomatic torches that attaches to a canister. (i.e. it is not a welding setup that adds oxygen). The main things I have planned for this torch are:

Soft solder some components together using a tin-silver solder (melting point upper 400F)

Heat tool steel bits up to dull red glowing and then quench and re-temper

maybe other uses in the future

I looked at the bernz web page, and it said that the flame temperature for propane was 3450f and 3600 for propylene. So I am wondering if there is even any point to getting the yellow canister of MAPP substitute. Coz I can get cans of propane for cheap from Walmart's camping section.

PTSideshow
06-10-2012, 06:25 AM
If that is all you want to do and the occasional heating for bending then no. As with a lot of things between the green weenie's and the advert hype. most don''t need it!
You can get a hose that attaches to the torch head and a bulk cylinder to hose adapter and buy the gas cheaper!
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/Tools/WElding%20equipment/DSCF9306.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/Tools/WElding%20equipment/DSCF9304.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/Tools/WElding%20equipment/DSCF9295.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/Tools/WElding%20equipment/DSCF9314.jpg

alanganes
06-10-2012, 07:19 AM
Guess I've not been paying attention. No more "real" Mapp gas? what's the story behind that? Why is it no longer sold?

flylo
06-10-2012, 08:19 AM
You can also get an adapter to refill your little throw away tanks off a 20# or larder tank. I used one at camp & it worked well. I would store the refilled ones ouside or on a very well vented place & by law that can't be transported on the roads,DOT reg. I used it for years & it worked great.

PTSideshow
06-10-2012, 11:07 AM
Guess I've not been paying attention. No more "real" Mapp gas? what's the story behind that? Why is it no longer sold?

Greenie weenies's concerns about the burning qualities and the effect it would have on the world in other words. They were screaming that "IT WILL KILL US ALL" since their scientists says it burned dirty!
So they come up with the new cylinders that can be recycled,and a lkess dirty burning gas or so they claim.

One of the weenies must have stumbled on one of those 1,000 torch end cap displays at a big box store. And when they found out that the MA stood for Methylacetylene they freaked;)

lakeside53
06-10-2012, 11:13 AM
There must be more to it than 3450 verse 3600F. I solder a lot of copper pipe - anything over 3/4 is a real pain with the propane torch; easy with the orginal MAPP or the current MAP-pro.

I use the flexible hose "benzomatic" torches.

Having said that, for a great deal of what I do, propane works just fine.


You are correct -MAPP was discontinued a while back; propylene took its place almost unnoticed. Lot safer also.
Horrible site layout, but this covers all the suspects. http://www.weldreality.com/gasdata.htm

and.. more info to confuse (sorry about the formatting - not sure why it won't take tabs)

HEATING VALUES OF FUEL GASES:
PROPYLENE ACET PROPANE NAT GAS
NEUTRAL FLAME TEMP 5295 5589 4600 4500
BTU, PRIMARY FLAME 438 507 255 11
BTU, SEC FLAME 1962 963 2243 989
TOTAL BTU 2400 1460 2498 1000
BTU HEAT VALUE/LB 21,600 21,500 21,600 23,600

Forestgnome
06-10-2012, 11:17 AM
I think it's worth it to buy the yellow bottles. Heats a lot faster when trying to get steel to red hot. I use it regularly when I don't want to take the time to set up OA for removing stuck bolts.

Grind Hard
06-10-2012, 11:58 AM
Mapp hasn't been produced in the US since 2008. The only plant that produced it closed down.

JoeBean
06-10-2012, 12:53 PM
IME the torch makes more difference than the gas. I recently had my wife pick up a TS8000 while she was in the US (I couldn't find anywhere around here that carried them) and I was surprised at how much heat it puts out compared to my regular brass torches and even my TS4000. I picked it up mainly for making up some pex manifolds and it would heat the 1" copper pipe & brass fittings to temp in about 5 seconds. That was with the yellow gas cans (I still call them MAPP from habit).

I later used it with propane on some 2" and 3" copper for a still I'm building, and it heated the copper to temp in under 15 seconds 3" stuff, which I thought was pretty good considering the size. In comparison, I'd be sitting there for a couple minutes with my old brass torches.

----

By the way, I have one of those bernzomatic oxy rigs that I needed a while back to heat up a rusted nut on an exhaust manifold that was in a really awkward position to get to, and a regular oxy/acetylene torch wouldn't fit. While I will say that it's very small and easy to manoeuvre and gets quite hot, it is a pain to get it set just right as the oxygen tends to blow out the flame, and the hose is just short enough that I was forever pulling the bottles off of where they were laying, knocking the fuel adjustments out of whack at the same time. If I were to buy again I think I'd look at a Meco Midget or Smith Little Torch.

Peter.
06-10-2012, 01:27 PM
Someone mentioned hydrogen torch to me the other day. Apparently you can generate your own gas with some electical apparatus. Would one of those not be suitable for small jobs in the home workshop?

PTSideshow
06-10-2012, 01:52 PM
Someone mentioned hydrogen torch to me the other day. Apparently you can generate your own gas with some electical apparatus. Would one of those not be suitable for small jobs in the home workshop?

If you mean a water (hydrogen) torch like they use in micro welding and jewelry a used one starts around $4,000 US new they start around $7,000
There is the Russian hydrogen torch that uses water and alcohol, about $2,000 and they are sold by mail order only.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/Tools/WElding%20equipment/EZtorch.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/Tools/WElding%20equipment/DSCF9364.jpg
This is the new style propane torch used for silver soldering jewelry comes with 3 sizes of tips.
called ez torch and shark among others sells for around $100.00

kf2qd
06-10-2012, 02:12 PM
Everyone always looked at me like I was crazy for liking my Propane cutting torch - Acetylene is Hotter, but there are fewer BTUs. Acetylene has a hotter inner flame but cooler outer flame, makes it great for welding but not so great for heating. Most commercial CNC cutting tables use propane, with some using propylene. Better heat times than acetylene. But the real numbers are the BTU's for a given unit of gas.

And the new yellow tanks do supply more heat than do the propane bottles. With the same torch.

Peter.
06-10-2012, 03:31 PM
Everyone always looked at me like I was crazy for liking my Propane cutting torch....

I only use propane for cutting. I just spent 5 weeks cutting out 170 tons of steel ground retention system for my company. Used up 4 lg bottles of propane and around 70 bottles of oxygen. If I had been using acetylene I would have spent more time on the phone ordering more gas, than cutting - probably to be told there was none.

Rich Carlstedt
06-10-2012, 08:06 PM
Does this "No more MAPP" have to do with the recall of the 29 million MAPP 14 oz tanks last February ?

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml12/12117.html

I paid 8 or 9 bucks for a MAPP tank and now they want to replace the tank with a 3 dollar tank of propane exchanged

Rich

aboard_epsilon
06-10-2012, 08:27 PM
so they mite not be leeking,....and its all a cover.;)

to get the return of the real mapp gas

i heard a story that, the only mapp gas factory, which was in the USA, blew up ..that's why its not available.

so your saying i just wasted my money on a new burner attachment ..because its only as good now as the camping gas at 2 a bottle compared with the yellow bottles at 13

all the best..markj

Grind Hard
06-10-2012, 08:52 PM
Closed down due to "lack of market" and "regulatory issues within the plant itself."

In other words the plant was in decrepit shape and they perceived that there wasn't enough market to make it worth overhauling.

lakeside53
06-10-2012, 11:06 PM
Does this "No more MAPP" have to do with the recall of the 29 million MAPP 14 oz tanks last February ?

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml12/12117.html

I paid 8 or 9 bucks for a MAPP tank and now they want to replace the tank with a 3 dollar tank of propane exchanged

Rich


No. That recall was for the Mapp-pro. The orginal Mapp was well gone by then.

oldtiffie
06-10-2012, 11:57 PM
I use propane but not often. I have a good oxy-acet kit which got a lot more use than it does since I bought a "Cobra" torch set.

I sometimes use the oxy-acet for large heating jobs but it got a lot of use for cutting steel until I got a plasma cutting set.

I've never had nor have I ever had a need for MAPP or the like.

Grind Hard
06-10-2012, 11:58 PM
I have one (1) unopened bottle of the Good Stuff in my workshop.

At this point the bottle is four years old. I should use it up before it becomes dangerous.

On the other hand what is a worthy project for what may be the last bottle of true MAPP out there? ???

:D

oldtiffie
06-11-2012, 12:16 AM
Sell it to a cartographer as their specialty is "true maps".