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Paul Alciatore
06-15-2012, 01:06 PM
I am having a problem finding a new breaker for my fairly new (one year old) Square D box. I needed more circuits for my new garage-shop and the original boxes (2) were really outdated so I had a new Square D box installed about a year ago. It is full: there are no empty slots. I need to install an additional 220 V circuit, 20 A for a window style air conditioner. You just can't work in the South Texas heat without AC in the summer time - at least I can't. It IS a NEW BOX: I watched them take it out of the cardboard box before it was installed.

Anyway I need to make room for this breaker which will take up two slots. The existing circuit for an AC is 115 V so I do have one slot available, but I need another. A piggy-back or tandem breaker would do this: I can combine two existing circuits into one slot and then add the new, 220 V breaker. They DO make tandem breakers for this style box because it already has several installed in it. Unfortunately, they are not marked with the model number: I looked. I have been searching both the internet and local stores and suppliers for about a week and there seems to be a problem finding the appropriate Square D tandem breaker. The box is an QOC40UF and it says it uses QO breakers. But "QO" seems to have been used by Square D for at least three or four different styles of breaker. ????? Insane! But true. I need help identifying exactly which QO, tandem breaker will fit in my box.

The breakers in the box are of the plug in variety. They have two or three "U" shaped lugs on the bottom that clamp onto the buses and a plastic "hinge" in the box. The 220 V breaker I need to install has the model number QO220 on it.

I bought a QOT2020 thinking it would work, but no luck. It had a hook like projection at the outside end instead of the "U" shaped clamp that I need. But these are commonly sold in the same shelf area with the style that I need. Apparently this is for newer (?) boxes that limit the number of tandem breakers you can install to a few slots at the bottom. All I need is the correct Square D part number.

Anybody here understand the Square D numbering system? Any help would be appreciated.

Rosco-P
06-15-2012, 01:45 PM
In some panels (brand specific), you can only use tandem breakers or twins in certain positions. Often the bottom two or four positions will not accept a twin breaker. If that's the case, you'll have to install the twins higher up on the bus to make room for the two pole.

RWO
06-15-2012, 02:01 PM
QOC40UF is the box cover cat. #. It fits several different load centers. If you can find the load center cat. #, go here:

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/1100CT0501.pdf

and you can find the permissible breaker layout.

RWO

Fasttrack
06-15-2012, 02:06 PM
Like this?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-5B778?gclid=CKnNsNPc0LACFbEBQAod5RiGVw&cm_mmc=PPC:GooglePLA-_-Electrical-_-Distribution-_-5B778&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=5B778&ef_id=x-VPpWyETk0AAENA:20120615170310:s

My big box store carries these. I've seen them at both Menards and Lowes. Home Depot website has this listed, too:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100075651&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100075651&ci_kw=%7bkeyword%7d&kwd=%7bkeyword%7d&cm_mmc=shopping%2d%5f%2dgoogleads%2d%5f%2dpla%2d%5 f%2d100075651&ci_gpa=pla

flathead4
06-15-2012, 02:11 PM
I am not sure why you are having a problem finding a breaker for that panel. You are describing the QO breakers sold at big blue and big orange every day. As far as I know, Square D makes two styles of panel/breakers sold at big box store: the Homeline series and the QO series. The panel in my shop is almost identical to yours (about 5 years old) except the main breaker is at the bottom. I can put a double pole breaker anywhere top to bottom that I have room. I have the same style Square D panel in my house (about 40 years old) that takes the same breakers. I have juggled the breakers a time or two to add double pole breakers with no problem, other than the kids asking when the TV was going to be back. :)

Tom

flylo
06-15-2012, 02:25 PM
Unless they have come out with something new they make the cheap Homeline & the one with the Window to see if it's tripped like you have. Home Depot should have them.

tlfamm
06-15-2012, 07:12 PM
I _think_ I understand Paul's predicament - it sounds like the one I was in a few months ago.


My 30-year old 150-amp Square-D QO enclosure accepts either of _two_ types of tandem breakers:

1. tandem breakers that only fit in dedicated slots (top or bottom, depending on enclosure).
[These are definitely available at Home Depot]

2. unrestricted tandem breakers that fit in any slot.
[I had to order mine at a local electrical supply house - cost almost twice as much as #1 above]



I have a #2 (tandem 15-amp, 120 volts) in my enclosure - but it doesn't have a part number???

tlfamm
06-15-2012, 07:24 PM
I found the old breaker that I had to replace, which had the following PN:

QO1515
47569 08277

(Paul needs the 20-amp flavor, I think)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Both the old breaker and the new carry the following dictate:

"For Replacement Use Only; Not CTL Assemblies"
================================================== =======


Edit: (some more info)



CTL = Circuit Total Limiting. Hence a CTL enclosure is intended for use with "Circuit Limiting QOT Tandem Breakers" - the kind of tandem breakers that only fit in dedicated slots in the enclosure (and are sold at Home Depot).


See, the "History of CTL", as described here:

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/All-HTML/HTML/Circuit-Breakers-CTL-Assemblies~19990829.php


and note the following:

<quote>
What are the dangers on improperly using "Replacement Use Only - Not for CTL assemblies" in a CTL assembly?

If you install "Replacement Breakers" (tandem breakers without a hooked foot) in a CTL panelboard, the number of circuit breakers in the panelboard could exceed that number for which the panelboard was designed, rated, and approved. The result could be an overheated panelboard or the breakers might prematurely open (not stay in under load).

Installing "Replacement Breakers" in CTL panelboard is a violation of Section 110-3(b) and grounds for the inspector to "red-tag" the installation.
<end>*


* The use of a (single) "Replacement Only" breaker was certainly not red-tagged on my home's electrical inspection.



Square-D residential products catalog - see bottom of page 3 for list of "Replacement Tandem Breakers"
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Metering%20Equipment/0110PL9401.pdf

MaxxLagg
06-15-2012, 08:22 PM
Well, I'm not sure how much I can help but I actually work at Square D Lincoln. I'm a Tool Maker now, but once upon a time I worked just about every job there. The circuit breakers you're looking for were originally called QOT (Quick Open Tandem.) They looked like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-D-QOT1515-Tandem-15-Amp-QOT-Circuit-Breaker-/290096292544

Starting in probably 1985 or so they phased out the QOT and replaced it with what was then called the QOSS (Quick Open Side by Side), looking like this:

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/QOT/0731.pdf

They manufactured the QOSS there at the Lincoln plant (along with all the other various miniature circuit breakers, such as QO Single, two and three pole, GFI, QOU, EF, EH, SDT, HOM and probably some others that I'm forgetting.) Only the QO (in it's various configurations) and HOM are manufactured there now, but in really high volume, I could say how many but they probably wouldn't want me to. ;)

Somewhere along the way it looks like the QOSS name disappeared and it was renamed back to QOT, in the new side by side configuration. We still mold and stamp the components for this breaker at the Lincoln site but no longer build it there.

This may help determine compatibility issues with your panel.

http://www.schneider-electric.us/sites/us/en/support/faq/faq_main.page?page=content&country=US&lang=EN&id=FA130326&redirect=true

This is a catalog page that might help:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/viewCatalogPDF.shtml?browserCompatable=true&adobeCompatable=true&toolbar=false&CatPage=264&Catalog=main

And yet more:
http://www.schneider-electric.us/documents/customers/retail-consumer/qo-load-centers.pdf

Again, I haven't been involved with the nuts and bolts of the actual application of our products for 25 years or more, I just build the stuff that builds the stuff you buy. :D

If this doesn't help I DO know the people that could help but I'm sure if you just asked a electrician they'd know.

Paul Alciatore
06-16-2012, 12:56 AM
The QOT1520 that you refer to is the same style as the QOT2020 which I know will not fit. I have had one in my hand and it does not match the existing tandem breakers in the box.

Besides, I want a dual 20 Amp., the QOT1520 is a combination of one 15 Amp and one 20 Amp.

And yes, they are in ALL the home supply and hardware stores, or at least those who keep up with their stock.

Paul A.


Like this?

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-QO-Circuit-Breaker-5B778?gclid=CKnNsNPc0LACFbEBQAod5RiGVw&cm_mmc=PPC:GooglePLA-_-Electrical-_-Distribution-_-5B778&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=5B778&ef_id=x-VPpWyETk0AAENA:20120615170310:s

My big box store carries these. I've seen them at both Menards and Lowes. Home Depot website has this listed, too:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100075651&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100075651&ci_kw=%7bkeyword%7d&kwd=%7bkeyword%7d&cm_mmc=shopping%2d%5f%2dgoogleads%2d%5f%2dpla%2d%5 f%2d100075651&ci_gpa=pla

Paul Alciatore
06-16-2012, 01:16 AM
Maxx, what you say seems to make sense, but neither of the breakers that you refer to is like the tandem breakers that are already installed in the box. The ones that are already in it have the snap on, "U" shaped clip to attach to what is called the "rail bead" in the drawing. The existing tandem breakers that I have CAN be installed in any slot, just like the regular QO breakers. They snap on, no hooking is involved. I just need the part number - which isn't on them.

Perhaps I am missing something. Perhaps I should just buy one or two QOT breakers and see if they will fit. But the box will have to have the extra slot below the rail bead to allow that and I don't know if it is there. Perhaps I can open the box again and look.

Square D could really be a lot more clear on this. Their so called data sheet on the box is absolutely no help. It isn't a data sheet by any stretch of the imagination and it really isn't even a good description.

I guess I was hoping that someone here was either an electrician or had otherwise seen this situation before.

Paul A.



Well, I'm not sure how much I can help but I actually work at Square D Lincoln. I'm a Tool Maker now, but once upon a time I worked just about every job there. The circuit breakers you're looking for were originally called QOT (Quick Open Tandem.) They looked like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-D-QOT1515-Tandem-15-Amp-QOT-Circuit-Breaker-/290096292544

Starting in probably 1985 or so they phased out the QOT and replaced it with what was then called the QOSS (Quick Open Side by Side), looking like this:

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/QO-QOB%20Circuit%20Breakers/QOT/0731.pdf

They manufactured the QOSS there at the Lincoln plant (along with all the other various miniature circuit breakers, such as QO Single, two and three pole, GFI, QOU, EF, EH, SDT, HOM and probably some others that I'm forgetting.) Only the QO (in it's various configurations) and HOM are manufactured there now, but in really high volume, I could say how many but they probably wouldn't want me to. ;)

Somewhere along the way it looks like the QOSS name disappeared and it was renamed back to QOT, in the new side by side configuration. We still mold and stamp the components for this breaker at the Lincoln site but no longer build it there.

This may help determine compatibility issues with your panel.

http://www.schneider-electric.us/sites/us/en/support/faq/faq_main.page?page=content&country=US&lang=EN&id=FA130326&redirect=true

This is a catalog page that might help:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/viewCatalogPDF.shtml?browserCompatable=true&adobeCompatable=true&toolbar=false&CatPage=264&Catalog=main

And yet more:
http://www.schneider-electric.us/documents/customers/retail-consumer/qo-load-centers.pdf

Again, I haven't been involved with the nuts and bolts of the actual application of our products for 25 years or more, I just build the stuff that builds the stuff you buy. :D

If this doesn't help I DO know the people that could help but I'm sure if you just asked a electrician they'd know.

MaxxLagg
06-16-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm at work right now but will look into it some more as time allows. In the mean time, here is the link to the Square D Digest:

http://products.schneider-electric.us/products-services/online-digest/

Use the search function at the top to find QOT, see if that helps.

EDIT****

Are you looking for something more like this?

http://products.schneider-electric.us/products-services/product-detail/?event=productDetail&countryCode=us&partNumber=QO2020

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.circuitbreakersuperstore.com/uimages/Circuit-Breakers/QO2020.jpg&sa=X&ei=BIjcT5LPJ4Om8ATvkbm9Cg&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNFnQhxX_r1U4jZyPogDl5zT24ejNQ

It's on page 1-2 of the digest under table 1.5 "replacement tandem circuit breakers" QO2020

It looks like to me that you have a "new" box that is actually "old".

Paul Alciatore
06-16-2012, 07:07 PM
According to that site I appear to need a QO2020 as your photo shows. It took a bit of clicking, but I sent them a request for price.

Yes, I am beginning to suspect I got a box that was laying around in the original packaging for some time. It does look new: no scratches, no writing on the label, etc. Their price for the job was about half the other quotes and the job was done in an excellent manner, so I can't complain.

Thanks for all the help.

MaxxLagg
06-16-2012, 07:28 PM
Glad to help. Also, for future reference, if I recall correctly, the little label that covers up the calibration screw (to prevent tampering) should have the model number. Could be wrong though. I'd have to go out to the line and grab one and look.