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View Full Version : It LOOKS like you shot the forum in the head....... what th'?



J Tiers
07-19-2012, 08:57 PM
OK, now we too have the ultra safe "new mother's forum" setup..... I DID see that.

But why is it defaulted to a view that requires much navigation to even SEE the other sub-forums?

I expect that there is a way to get some semblance of the old setup back, but it means another fiddly crappy session of guessing to do it.... with the possibility that choices were made by the owners that may prevent that.....

How about some form of "how to fix the forum" sticky? I don't particularly want to tiddle around figuring it out...... it may be a while before I bother, if it isn't pretty obvious..

Not that anyone will do much but breathe a sigh of relief if I go away.....

Carld
07-19-2012, 09:25 PM
JT, I'm not fond of the new look either but it is what it is. Now it has the cluttered look that many other sites have. I have had to deal with so many forum sites changing their format lately that it doesn't bother me as much as it used to.

lakeside53
07-19-2012, 09:27 PM
Much navigation? i just click Forum.

Apart from a slightly wide left ad strip, it looks/feels just like PM. Hey, maybe just make HSM a sub forum of PM!

John Stevenson
07-19-2012, 09:31 PM
JT likes a bit of theater :D

Mike Burdick
07-19-2012, 09:35 PM
Just change the old bookmark to http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forum.php

oldtiffie
07-19-2012, 09:37 PM
You mean that JT is a closet thespian? Grease paint and all that goes with it and all?

Hmmm-m-m-m-m


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespian

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=5&gs_id=k&xhr=t&q=thespian&pf=p&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=thesp&gs_l=&pbx=1&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=47ce6756e0d9c48b&biw=1920&bih=818

Mcgyver
07-19-2012, 09:59 PM
13,000 posts and your affinity toward it is only as thick as the colour scheme ?

imo its all squarely in the 'who cares' department, use a week or two and you'll be fine

danlb
07-19-2012, 10:06 PM
Change bookmark to http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/forums/3-General for general. No biggie

Dan

aostling
07-19-2012, 11:42 PM
use a week or two and you'll be fine

No way. Not if those big envelope icons don't get eliminated. They overwhelm the view of any of the thread titles, and they serve no useful purpose.

justanengineer
07-19-2012, 11:55 PM
Maybe Im too focused on other things, but many of these "differences" others are seeing I am not. This reminds me of those times when she "got her hair done," or has two "different" colors.

The navigation still looks the same to me. A few slight changes to the appearance, but its still Vbulletin underneath...

Mcgyver
07-20-2012, 12:07 AM
No way. Not if those big envelope icons don't get eliminated. They overwhelm the view of any of the thread titles, and they serve no useful purpose.

cripiess, you guys need a hobby :)

tdmidget
07-20-2012, 12:27 AM
The new forum sucks. The print is microscopic and the color contrast is awful. If these can be changed, I haven't found a way. What purpose was served by this change?

rohamm
07-20-2012, 12:45 AM
There's a lot to dislike, but what I miss most is the 'first unread' feature.

Elninio
07-20-2012, 12:53 AM
The adds on the side are annoying, the new layout accomodates more addspace and more profit (why does he need the money anyway). With the old system, you could have skipped it by nagivating down with spacebar or down-arrow keys. With this new system, you can't escape the Weekly Dell Desktop Deals, and other fantastic savings that are more desireable than jesus christ himself. Praise you Dell computers, you are my salvation!

Elninio
07-20-2012, 12:56 AM
You have like 5 top of the line machine tools but yet you're here giving us attention who are bickering between us. There was a crippled gentlemen who showed his shop once (god bless him, no one deserves to be crippled), and he had a chair for the lathe. If you're tired you could just get a chair.

morehelium
07-20-2012, 12:57 AM
If the text is too small, hold down the "ctrl" key and either use the plus/minus keys or if you have a scroll wheel mouse you can use it to make the text size change.

dp
07-20-2012, 12:59 AM
For grins I disabled my proxy and let the full page load. Then I turned on the Firefox debuger (Firebug). I then selected the division on the left that holds the advertisements. This I saved to a text file (130kB) and converted it to a PDF (46 pages). This does not include any images - just java script and html. That is a huge section of code. With the proxy enabled it is reduced to about 20 lines of text.

It doesn't pass the w3.org test:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fbbs.homeshopmachinist.net%2 F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.3

Elninio
07-20-2012, 01:05 AM
As a suggestion, you can configure your browser to run a custom styles.css for this website that hides things, changes layouts, increases fonts in certain areas, whatever you want this website to do.

danlb
07-20-2012, 01:12 AM
There's a lot to dislike, but what I miss most is the 'first unread' feature.


It is still there. Right hand side of the top post on the page. You have to be signed in for it to work.

Dan

dp
07-20-2012, 01:18 AM
As a suggestion, you can configure your browser to run a custom styles.css

How do you limit it to just this site?

aostling
07-20-2012, 01:28 AM
No way. Not if those big envelope icons don't get eliminated.


The envelope icons are gone. Much nicer – thanks George.

legendboy
07-20-2012, 01:30 AM
http://adsense.blogspot.ca/2011/03/new-in-ads-notice-label-and-icon.html

legendboy
07-20-2012, 01:36 AM
at least it resizes the page properly for me. might put a piece of duct tape over my screen

i think i am going to go test drive a ford focus tomorrow and possibly take a flight with westjet

lynnl
07-20-2012, 04:37 AM
The envelope icons are gone. Much nicer – thanks George.

My envelope icons are still there.

aostling
07-20-2012, 04:52 AM
My envelope icons are still there.

My envelope icons are absent in Firefox, but visible in Google Chrome. Both browsers have ABP (Ad Block Plus) installed.

Black_Moons
07-20-2012, 05:41 AM
Agreed, I hate the big icons, they make it look like some kiddy forum. This forum used to look serious now it looks like every other craptastic forum that only ever got 10 threads.

oldtiffie
07-20-2012, 07:16 AM
If the text is too small, hold down the "ctrl" key and either use the plus/minus keys or if you have a scroll wheel mouse you can use it to make the text size change.

Well I'll be damned - so it does - many thanks - appreciated

oldtiffie
07-20-2012, 07:22 AM
George will or may get around to what I see as trivial issues - when he can - if he can - if and when he chosses to for his own good reasons.

If you seriously don't like it and can get by without logging into this forum then perhaps you should do it.

Other than that you are going to get used to it even if you don't like it if you want to use it.

Easy choice.

garagemark
07-20-2012, 07:51 AM
You guys waste an awful lot of energy bitcching about something you cannot control. This is it boys and girls; like it, tolerate it, or leave it. George has told us time and time again that this new setup isn't going away, and that they are tweaking on it to make it better... but that it will take time.

If you guys are on any other forums, you are likely to be disappointed over and over. New software comes out, new viruses are born, and cost go up to fund these sites. Forums must upgrade or die. Your choice.

So put on your big boy pants and start posting about something interesting. Or just call it a day and hit the shop for a while. Work off some of that excess energy.

MrSleepy
07-20-2012, 08:28 AM
Well you have a simple choice..I cant see George and Co going back.

The icons issue can be somewhat cured by using the zoom text only feature in firefox.

The adverts and tracking can be cured with the "hosts" file , adblock n ghostery.

And I know that defeating the adverts doesnt help VPs revenue..but there's no point showing me a car advert until you start driving on the proper side of the road:).

Rob

davidh
07-20-2012, 08:44 AM
You guys waste an awful lot of energy bitcching about something you cannot control. This is it boys and girls; like it, tolerate it, or leave it. George has told us time and time again that this new setup isn't going away, and that they are tweaking on it to make it better... but that it will take time.

If you guys are on any other forums, you are likely to be disappointed over and over. New software comes out, new viruses are born, and cost go up to fund these sites. Forums must upgrade or die. Your choice.

So put on your big boy pants and start posting about something interesting. Or just call it a day and hit the shop for a while. Work off some of that excess energy.

"oh no, your not gonna use a new rope too ?"

George Bulliss
07-20-2012, 08:47 AM
Well you have a simple choice..I cant see George and Co going back.

And I know that defeating the adverts doesnt help VPs revenue..but there's no point showing me a car advert until you start driving on the proper side of the road:).

Rob

Rob,

You are correct, we can't go back. This change was not driven by a desire to change the look, but rather by the need to get some software that worked. It was getting to the point where over 3/4 of those registering had probems and had to be entered by Daron or myself.

The ads in the vertical banner will, with luck, be replaced in the future with more specific ads. I'm also going to reduce the size of the banner a bit. I'm also working on color and text changes and just about everything else that has been brought up.

I ask for some patience with the changes though. I can't access all areas of the admin panel and need to go through the IT department for many of the changes, which takes time. We are working on things and are not trying pull a fast one on anybody, but with two guys responsible for three magazines, I only have so much time to give to this project. We'll get there.

MrSleepy
07-20-2012, 09:15 AM
I come here for the content....not the colours.

This is just an update... HMEM ex members have left because they feel betrayed and used..not because of the change of software..


Thanks to George and co for all the effort.

Rob

vpt
07-20-2012, 09:37 AM
George will or may get around to what I see as trivial issues - when he can - if he can - if and when he chosses to for his own good reasons.

If you seriously don't like it and can get by without logging into this forum then perhaps you should do it.

Other than that you are going to get used to it even if you don't like it if you want to use it.

Easy choice.



I agree. Your doing a great job George! Keep it up! Are you going to be assigning any mods to help out?

BigMike782
07-20-2012, 10:25 AM
George,don't pay the nay sayers any never mind,their knitting needles are chaffing their fingers.
I think it looks fine.......for a FREE forum.

J Tiers
07-20-2012, 10:27 AM
George has other things to do, this forum is a back burner thing for VP, and even more so for him. He has to deal with whatever mess it creates just like everyone else, in his spare time (as if he has any).

Yes, I HAVE found the buttons to at least get the forum view, although I have not bothered to reset the link......yet. But, the initial view bringing it up had NO obvious button to get away from the "latest post only" type of "conversational" view that it defaulted to. Just a sea of pastel buttons most of which didn't do anything that needed to be done.

I KNOW OF FORUMS THAT USE THAT almost exclusively.... they LIKE the "conversational model", so it was at least credible that the IT folks had decided to go that route..... Management folks take the path of least resistance, and it could have been easier to leave it there..

CAN a person work with this? Yes, of course...... people are built to get used to things..... And once you find all the buttons, and re-register, it works.

As for the "You knew this was coming, put on your big boy pants"...... comments of that sort should embarrass the ones who write them much more than anybody else............

ANYONE who has a forum is basically held hostage by the folks who WRITE THE FORUM SOFTWARE..... whatever the WRITERS think is good, or whatever they did to change it because they were bored and had to justify their existence........ well, THAT is what you have to use, you don't get any choices, unless you want to try to port the entire history over to another software package. You may have to do that post by post, so it isn't practical.

You DO usually get some choices as to the format..............

Some site owners handle the transition seamlessly, making sure that it is defaulted to a view as similar as possible to the old version. They have the attitude that the forum is for and about the users, and has no existence without users, so it is a poor idea to make using the forum any harder than it has to be.

Others just HAVE to change it, but proviide some instruction as to how to get back some semblance of the most popular settings....

Some just let the users figure it out......... "it's a free service, let 'em eat cake"....

And others persist in telling their users "you are just an idiot, it's really easy, and if you can't figure it out, take up knitting", forgetting that they randomly set many folks to a different default view from everyone else.....

Probably some have such clueless IT folks that they can't set it up right, and just accept whatever the default is.

I will let YOU figure out which category this, or any other particular forum owner, falls into. I have no comment.
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Loyalty/liking/willingness to stay with the forum? Irrelevant..... users decide what happens

Look at history......

The Chaski forum was THE place at one time........ then the owners changed the software to a version most users thought was less-friendly, and one user started a new forum....(PM) NOW, Chaski is little-used... it has a loyal base who WILL NOT come here, but most folks moved on to PM, and later to this one. Chaski may go days with no posts in many areas..... Most folks voted with their feet (or mouse). It DOES happen.

In this case, many/most others already went to this software version, and already have the super-safe and non-offensive pastel "new mothers forum"/"nursery forum" look. So it's just more of the same instead of the only one. As long as the forum is reasonably similar to the old one, and basically usable, most folks will use it, even if they don't prefer it......

What other choice does anyone have anyhow?

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If I might make a suggestion...... for ANY forum owners...... for future upgrades

If the install is PLANNED...... with a trial version used in-house to work out the details ahead of time (not something IT departments do very well, as I have noticed.... they don't typically understand why ANYONE needs any notice or instructions).

As far as possible in advance of the roll-out, do an update document. Should take maybe a half hour at most to put it together..

1) Screen shot the main new screens.

2) use something ("MSPaint" will work) to circle or arrow or whatever to point out the location of the most used relevant buttons for using the new "look"....

3) provide the new address that will be used for the forum view most similar to the old one.

4) Post the document well in advance of the roll-out as a heads-up and help. You can put the usual disclaimers of "we had to do this, and we are sorry the format has to change this way..... etc, etc" ... if you want.

As far as I know this is very rare, I know of one forum that did it.... but it shouldn't be, it is simply good sense to do it.

<added> It isn't hard to do..... I commonly have to write reports, assembly instructions, "how to navigate the software" documents, etc as a part of my job, and it takes very little time to do a basic "here is where the controls are" document.

gnm109
07-20-2012, 10:48 AM
It's still free. (shrug)

legendboy
07-20-2012, 01:09 PM
^ I have never seen a forum where you have to pay to be a member

Arcane
07-20-2012, 02:05 PM
You guys waste an awful lot of energy bitcching about something you cannot control. This is it boys and girls; like it, tolerate it, or leave it. George has told us time and time again that this new setup isn't going away, and that they are tweaking on it to make it better... but that it will take time.

If you guys are on any other forums, you are likely to be disappointed over and over. New software comes out, new viruses are born, and cost go up to fund these sites. Forums must upgrade or die. Your choice.

So put on your big boy pants and start posting about something interesting. Or just call it a day and hit the shop for a while. Work off some of that excess energy.The irony of your post...

gnm109
07-20-2012, 02:29 PM
^ I have never seen a forum where you have to pay to be a member

There are a number of sites to which I belong that require payment in order to have full privileges such as viewing pictures and illustrations and some where you have to pay to have an avator. Beyond that there are some sites, particularly with regard to medical topics, in which you must pay to read the technical papers posted there by doctors and nurses.

Obviously, you and I don't go to porno sites, but many of those are pay to view.

Google is your friend. I don't feel like looking them up, except to say that they are out there.


EDIT: I would just like to add, that the site looks fine in it's new layout. It's going to be a lot more fun lurking in the future. LOL.

Dr Stan
07-20-2012, 02:39 PM
Much navigation? i just click Forum.

Apart from a slightly wide left ad strip, it looks/feels just like PM. Hey, maybe just make HSM a sub forum of PM!

Absolutely NOT!

Dr Stan
07-20-2012, 02:48 PM
As to the layout/format of the forum my view is simply "whatever". I'm adaptable and the price (free) fits my meager budget. There is one issue previously mentioned that I believe should be addressed and that is the contrast, or lack thereof. Everyone on the plus side of 40 begins to loose their ability to see as well as one in say their 20's due to the decline/loss of the cones in their eyes. Consequently they need sharper contrast between text & the background along with larger fonts. With the current color scheme of various shades of brown it makes the forum muddy. Nice sharp black & white would be much better for the threads.

gwilson
07-20-2012, 03:05 PM
I see no kind of notation that I responded to a thread. Is there going to be any notation?????

Evan
07-20-2012, 03:07 PM
The little round and currently blue icon on the very left goes away when you view a thread or respond to it. I am suggesting that it be made a contrasting colour for better visibility.

See the Change thread.

dp
07-20-2012, 03:13 PM
I see no kind of notation that I responded to a thread. Is there going to be any notation?????

If you are logged in you should see a green ball with a check mark in it at every thread you've posted in since the upgrade.

Edit: I just checked some older threads and it looks like the check mark is there even for legacy threads.

lakeside53
07-20-2012, 04:43 PM
As to the layout/format of the forum my view is simply "whatever". I'm adaptable and the price (free) fits my meager budget. There is one issue previously mentioned that I believe should be addressed and that is the contrast, or lack thereof. Everyone on the plus side of 40 begins to loose their ability to see as well as one in say their 20's due to the decline/loss of the cones in their eyes. Consequently they need sharper contrast between text & the background along with larger fonts. With the current color scheme of various shades of brown it makes the forum muddy. Nice sharp black & white would be much better for the threads.


Shades of brown? Mine's grays and blues...

lakeside53
07-20-2012, 04:46 PM
DP: green ball? I see no such thing... where is it? I see it over on PM on the bottom right side of the envelope, but not here now it's been removed. All I have is the blue ball (go to first post) that vanishes after reading.

I use IE9.

Dr Stan
07-20-2012, 05:13 PM
Shades of brown? Mine's grays and blues...

Interesting. Must have something to do with the settings on our monitors. In any case there is a serious lack of contrast blues, greys, browns, or whatever. Its still muddy.

lakeside53
07-20-2012, 05:37 PM
In my case it's too contrasty with the newly enhanced titles; IMO.. it was much nicer with the non-bold titles after reading.

dp
07-20-2012, 06:08 PM
DP: green ball? I see no such thing... where is it? I see it over on PM on the bottom right side of the envelope, but not here now it's been removed. All I have is the blue ball (go to first post) that vanishes after reading.

I use IE9.

The green checks show up at the forum level (General, for example). If you are not logged in you won't see these.

http://metalworkingathome.com/images/greenchecks.jpg

MrSleepy
07-20-2012, 06:25 PM
I can't see any green dots (in General) either...except for at the bottom left explaining what they represent.


http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac180/MrSleepy123/Capture3.jpg

Rob

tyrone shewlaces
07-20-2012, 06:28 PM
Looks much better today after the tweaks. I never would have liked the original settings as they just looked wonky and it was hard to mentally filter out the noise. The new look will be easy for me to get used to.

+1 thanks George.

dp
07-20-2012, 06:30 PM
I just did a quick check and chose to view only that green button. It is named "subscribed.png" and indicates I am subscribed to that thread. My account must be configured to auto-subscribe me to any thread I've posted in. I'll have a look at that.

Edit:

Ok - here's proof that no good deed goes unpunished. When the IT guys replaced all the status icons with the blue chevron ball they also defeated one of the status indicators which is the green ball that shows you have posted in the thread. It looks like this:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/images/statusicon/thread_dot_hot-30-right.png

No envelope, no posted status :)

CCWKen
07-20-2012, 07:39 PM
If you think this is bad, you should see the default mobile theme. :o

loose nut
07-20-2012, 08:56 PM
Before when you read a forum, like the general one, the threads with new posts where highlighted in black "ink" at the top of the page and those that haven't had any new post where lower down on the page but greyed out. Is there a function that does something like this now. If there is I can't find it.:mad:

lakeside53
07-20-2012, 11:55 PM
\
Ok - here's proof that no good deed goes unpunished. When the IT guys replaced all the status icons with the blue chevron ball they also defeated one of the status indicators which is the green ball that shows you have posted in the thread. It looks like this:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/images/statusicon/thread_dot_hot-30-right.png

No envelope, no posted status :)



Yep... That's what I figured. Sure would be nice to get it back somehow.

Evan
07-21-2012, 12:16 AM
The green ball with check mark shows up for me. It won't show if you aren't logged in.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/ball.gif

lakeside53
07-21-2012, 01:15 AM
Surely I'm logged in if I can post!

Browser dependency?

dp
07-21-2012, 03:18 AM
Surely I'm logged in if I can post!

Browser dependency?

This subscription option is set in your personal settings. Mine was set for the bbs default what ever that is, so I changed it to No Subscriptions which might mean I won't auto-subscribe to threads I post in. Or... ?

mike4
07-21-2012, 04:37 AM
The ads do take up a bit of page width , however the main thing is we can still post and read the posts .
Lets get on with some machining or similar instead of crying about a change .
Michael

Evan
07-21-2012, 04:50 AM
It isn't a matter of "crying about a change". If you cannot tell what threads you have posted to it makes it rather hard to carry on a conversation. I don't know about you but I don't have time to read every thread to figure out which ones I posted in and which have new postings.

I suspect that turning off subscriptions has disabled the indicator. I have not changed that setting or any of the other default settings from what they were before the switch. In my case subscriptions are "on".

J Tiers
07-21-2012, 09:49 AM
I don't think you CAN turn off subscriptions....... I went looking, and didn't see any choice that was labeled as controlling that option. I can LOOK AT a list of subscribed threads, and I can clear it, but nothing seems to actually control the "subscribing process". Not that I care particularly, but I was curious.

bborr01
07-21-2012, 09:52 AM
George,

It took me all of about 2 minutes to figure out how to navigate the new site. I am sure that in a week or so it will seem like the same forum that I am used to visiting.

Brian

A.K. Boomer
07-21-2012, 10:44 AM
Boy howdy this is strange - I go up to score some sockeye on the Kenai and come back and it's like someone switched my breakfast cereal - I don't want the new and improved honey bunches of oats - they lack the initial crunch and get soggy faster - plus the new shape does not hold milk like it used too...:(
I don't even like the emoticons -------- who are these people?

took me 10 minutes to figure out how to post this - is it out there ?

where am I - I can't find my socks...

Ohio Mike
07-21-2012, 11:18 AM
It isn't a matter of "crying about a change". If you cannot tell what threads you have posted to it makes it rather hard to carry on a conversation. I don't know about you but I don't have time to read every thread to figure out which ones I posted in and which have new postings.

I agree, that was the one thing I was looking forward to in the new software. So far everything else I can deal with.

As a side note one danger of tweaking software is the more you do it the more likely something ugly is going to happen during the next upgrade cycle. Hopefully George and the VP crew doesn't let the upgrade process get away from them like it did before and we don't have such a drastic change again. I've spent better than 15 years doing Information Technology management (with 5 of those doing software integration and deployment) and I find it doesn't matter what the change is people just don't like it.

dp
07-21-2012, 12:16 PM
I don't think you CAN turn off subscriptions....... I went looking, and didn't see any choice that was labeled as controlling that option. I can LOOK AT a list of subscribed threads, and I can clear it, but nothing seems to actually control the "subscribing process". Not that I care particularly, but I was curious.

Subscriptions are a notification process. You choose the notification type when you select a forum to subscribe to. To empty your subscriptions list you use the Settings page --> Subscriptions --> Empty Folder option.

To subscribe to a forum you go to the top level where you see all the forums listed and click the green checkball. A page opens that lets you choose a notification type. If you choose any of the email selections you will be sent a personal email to what ever email address you included in your registration. If you choose Control Panel then your list will grow there.

This is not the same as having your active threads tracked for you. That was done with the envelope icons so many people were upset with. Rather than making them smaller (a simple edit in the style sheet) they were all replaced with the blue chevron ball which shows only a single status - new posts are found in the threads since your last visit.

Here is another problem with the status icons being removed - you can't see a thread is closed unless you stumble into it. A few whiners caused a lot of useful information to be taken away. Bad whiners - no cookie! :cool:

I'd put the envelopes back and tell people to pout quietly.

Evan
07-21-2012, 01:15 PM
It's hard to understand how the display of a image can be a browser dependency. It works for me in Chrome and I just tried it in IE8 and it works there too. There is a user setting that must be the cause.

dp
07-21-2012, 01:30 PM
I've just removed (emptied) my subscriptions folder and now all the green checkmark balls are gone. I also set up control-panel only for notifications. This is a test to see if this auto-subscribes me to this thread.

Edit: It did not, so my settings control whether I see the subscribed icon or not. To control this you open the General settings in your control panel and select appropriately the options shown in the image:

http://metalworkingathome.com/images/subscribe.jpg