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The Artful Bodger
09-06-2012, 12:39 AM
I was listening to someone today who wants to buy a vintage aircraft from some remote location in Arizona and he told me how expensive it will be because American transport companies will not drop a shipping container on the ground to be loaded? Presumably all container loading is done at dockways?

Someone should start making side lift trucks (no doubt they do but where are they?).

Ian B
09-06-2012, 12:50 AM
Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp2BU6SS_dg

Ian

wierdscience
09-06-2012, 12:55 AM
There are numerous machines to load and unload a container from a dolley,but most of them maybe unavailible out in remote locations away from freight terminals.Truck cranes are the simplest solution,but even they are pricey when there is travel time just getting to the lift.

One company I do work for has a fleet of these Taylor container lifts-
http://www.forkliftamerica.com/taylor-ty555rr-60-000-pound-triple-pneumatic-diesel-55-000-mast-sideshift-fork-positioner.html

The $225k is the used price,so they cost a bit too.

The Artful Bodger
09-06-2012, 01:03 AM
Ian B. That's it exactly, we have those all around the country (New Zealand).

We shifted house, the container was dropped off and the packers filled it then the side lift truck took it to the rail yards and put it on the wagon, two days later another side lift picked it off there and delivered it to the new house, lifting it over the back fence as it did so.

BTW, the 'condo' in that video, the gray multi story 'house' is about 1 mile from the house we left.

So why cant they lift a loaded container from the ground in Arizona?

wierdscience
09-06-2012, 01:05 AM
We have those here too,but many parts of the western US are like many parts of Antarctica.You can find them on the map,but that doesn't mean getting there will be easy or cheap.

macona
09-06-2012, 01:41 AM
There is a service here called Pods. They are kind of a mini container that they can drop off, you load, and they pick up and move to another location or someplace to store the stuff.

http://www.pods.com

Looks like about 5000lbs max.

jhe.1973
09-06-2012, 02:36 AM
The Artful Bodger,

Maybe your friend should contact these people:

http://flagstaff.craigslist.org/for/3239059474.html

I just saw them on craigslist yesterday and they say 'throughout Arizona' in the ad. They also appear to be familiar with using low tech methods to load & move containers & buildings.

Another option:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/jhe-1973/3-18-11b.jpg

This is my 20 footer being delivered last year. The trailer's rear axle assembly is hydraulically moved forward until the bed almost contacts the ground. The container just slides off then. Seems to me that they should be able to load one the same way with their winch.

On edit: Just remembered I had a higher resolution photo so here is the contact info:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/jhe-1973/3-18-11b1.jpg

The Artful Bodger
09-06-2012, 03:13 AM
Thanks Jim, I might not see him again as he was just someone who was visiting our museum today. I will keep that email (shown on the Craigslist) on hand just in case.

justanengineer
09-06-2012, 08:21 AM
So why cant they lift a loaded container from the ground in Arizona?

We can easily do so in this country. Someone was very likely just talking out of their backside or not wanting to do a bit of work. I know a farmer who ships his hay to the Southwest every year in 40' containers. Not sure how they unload it at their end, but at his they normally grab his with either a Landoll or hydraulic bob-tail to take to the railroad siding.

As shown in the video, there are countless ways to do it. My personal favorites that Ive personally driven are 1. load handling system, ie the "hook n drag" truck, and 2. the Landoll (tho Ive never personally used one for containers, just equipment).

Mcgyver
09-06-2012, 09:58 AM
I was listening to someone today who wants to buy a vintage aircraft from some remote location in Arizona and he told me how expensive it will be because American transport companies will not drop a shipping container on the ground to be loaded? .

big continent, lots of companies....but I would say its true that its not common among those who regularly work with containers. That doesn't mean if you started up a side lift truck business your phone would ring off the hook; we just have a different infrastructure. Overhead cranes is how we load them for example in our plant.

Also, Canada/US/Mexico is one big honkin' continental economy. You just don't use sea cans unless it's going overseas (trucks and rail are what's used) and given the size of the economy, most commerce is done within it.

Based on use of shipping doors in the Toronto area for example, which is an industrial market the size of Chicago's, ( a subject I have deep expertise in), 95% would be truck level loading of vans set up with adequate turning radius for 53' vans + tractor, 4% flatbeds and <1% would be lifting whole containers. Almost every industrial building of any size would have 1 truck door per 5-10,000 sq ft.

In markets separated by water (new zeland) or areas with less space allotted to truck movements (Europe) it would make sense for this to be a different, different dynamic. otoh, where you've got the space and infrastructure, side loaders would be slow and expensive in comparison

demerrill
09-06-2012, 10:19 AM
Using Google Images to see what a 'Landoll' was, I chanced on this link to an Arizona based company.

http://www.storageaz.com/transport.htm

David Merrill

jhe.1973
09-06-2012, 11:08 AM
Using Google Images to see what a 'Landoll' was, I chanced on this link to an Arizona based company.

http://www.storageaz.com/transport.htm

David Merrill

Thanks for the link Dave. I see their site has a lot of info & ideas for accessories to customize a container. I've saved it for future reference.

tdmidget
09-06-2012, 12:53 PM
I was listening to someone today who wants to buy a vintage aircraft from some remote location in Arizona and he told me how expensive it will be because American transport companies will not drop a shipping container on the ground to be loaded? Presumably all container loading is done at dockways?

Someone should start making side lift trucks (no doubt they do but where are they?).

I could be done with the Landoll equipment but these are primarily intended for transporting vehicles and equipment. The operator will likely not meet the insurance and interchange requirements for ocean containers. I doubt you will ever see that side lift trailer in this country. We have limits on the weight that can be carried and the truck in the picture is limited to about 90,000 lbs gross wgt. He's got over 20,000 lbs of lifting equipment that might be used once a year and reduces his payload by 20,000 lbs and requires fuel to carry it around.
If he's looking a a vintage aircraft in Arizona it is probably within 20 miles of my house. It is unlikely to fit in such a container and would have to be disassembled if it will.
PM me the location and contact and I will take a look, maybe pix and see what can be done.

Dr Stan
09-06-2012, 01:25 PM
I'd check with ABF http://www.upack.com/lp/abfupackmoving.asp?r=b0150&r=b0250&refnum=googleabf&c=G%2FBRAND%2FUS&g=B%2Fabf+moving&m=broad&k=abf+moving&ad=14749803916&ap=1t1&gclid=COvykpC8obICFTN0MgodByIAfw If you have a way to load and unload the plane from an enclosed trailer they are one of the cheapest ways to move.

The Artful Bodger
09-06-2012, 04:10 PM
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, I will keep this information on hand in case I get to see this man again which I hope I do as he promised some other bits for our museum.

Yes, I can well imagine the domestic freight practices in North America are quite different to here in NZ. For example, I counted 122 shipping containers and one tarped flat deck on a freight train running through town. This is hardly suprising as much of what is moving is for export or is imports. We really are at the end of the line and old containers tend to accumulate here so it stands to reason we have the tools to moved them around.

+ or - Zero
09-06-2012, 04:23 PM
Some one was just blowin smoke at you. So far as planes in the Arizona desert take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_boneyard

A place I've been many times --the notion that in rural AZ you can't get a conex box (or an entire B52) moved from or to anywhere on the planet is just ridiculous --so long as you can physically get a truck and forklift to the area you're good to go. Cost is always another question.

I own three 40' conex boxes and have had them moved many times to many places --in really remote areas of the US, as well as having had occasion to have one shipped internationally and then shipped back to me with other product in it --to and from a really remote location in the Nevada desert.

The conex box is the most ubiquitous shipping container on earth, millions upon millions of them are on the move every day. And many of them are headed for or coming from the back of beyond in one place or another.

Ries
09-08-2012, 07:43 PM
I have never seen one of those sidelift container trucks in the USA- which is not to say there arent a few of em around, but they sure arent common.

I used to own a 40' conex, and I could find plenty of guys with Landoll type of tilting flatbeds who would transport it empty- but none who would be able to get it up on their flatbed full, at 40,000lbs plus.
I understand Landoll does make trucks that will do it, and I am sure there are some out there- but they are hard to find, and not easily available in most US towns.

+or - Zero, of course you can get a container loaded with a forklift- but the OP is talking about trucks that self load containers, without cranes or forklifts- these trucks are very common in many other countries.

I see probably a hundred containers an hour go by on the interstate by my house, and virtually everyone of em is on a trailer chassis. They load em and unload em off the trailers at big yards, with giant cranes, or with 50,000lb plus forklifts. So its easy to get a container delivered empty, or delivered on wheels. But where I live anyway, its expensive and complicated to get a full one loaded on a flatbed.
I have hired cranes to do it- once had a guy use a 35 ton RT crane, and another time the crane company refused to send out anything smaller than a 250 ton crane. They claimed the computer in their crane told them that at the angle required by my property, thats what it would take.
Where I live, renting a 50,000lb forklift for a day, and having it delivered and picked up, would easily run over 2 grand. It costs me 300 plus for a 3500lb model, which can be delivered on a little 16 foot flatbed pulled by a pickup. A forklift big enough to lift a full 40' conex is a bit more work to transport.

Anyway, my point is that, yes, literally millions of conex containers are shipped by truck, train, and ship every day in the USA, and 99.99% of em are loaded and unloaded either by really really big forklifts, or by cranes. So if you want one unloaded or loaded where there arent already big forklifts or cranes, you pay a lot for the privledge.

tdmidget
09-08-2012, 08:15 PM
Some one was just blowin smoke at you. So far as planes in the Arizona desert take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_boneyard

A place I've been many times --the notion that in rural AZ you can't get a conex box (or an entire B52) moved from or to anywhere on the planet is just ridiculous --so long as you can physically get a truck and forklift to the area you're good to go. Cost is always another question.

I own three 40' conex boxes and have had them moved many times to many places --in really remote areas of the US, as well as having had occasion to have one shipped internationally and then shipped back to me with other product in it --to and from a really remote location in the Nevada desert.

The conex box is the most ubiquitous shipping container on earth, millions upon millions of them are on the move every day. And many of them are headed for or coming from the back of beyond in one place or another.

Speaking of blowing smoke, what size container do you need for a B52, not shredded and in a condition suitable for a museum?

+ or - Zero
09-08-2012, 08:30 PM
Speaking of blowing smoke, what size container do you need for a B52, not shredded and in a condition suitable for a museum?

A very large one, of course. ;)

I did not say you could ship a B52 in a container, I said you can get an entire B52, or a conex box, moved from or to anywhere on the planet. Did you think it was not possible to do so? It's all about reading skills, you know?

+ or - Zero
09-08-2012, 08:39 PM
I have never seen one of those sidelift container trucks in the USA- which is not to say there arent a few of em around, but they sure arent common.

I used to own a 40' conex, and I could find plenty of guys with Landoll type of tilting flatbeds who would transport it empty- but none who would be able to get it up on their flatbed full, at 40,000lbs plus.
I understand Landoll does make trucks that will do it, and I am sure there are some out there- but they are hard to find, and not easily available in most US towns.

+or - Zero, of course you can get a container loaded with a forklift- but the OP is talking about trucks that self load containers, without cranes or forklifts- these trucks are very common in many other countries.

I see probably a hundred containers an hour go by on the interstate by my house, and virtually everyone of em is on a trailer chassis. They load em and unload em off the trailers at big yards, with giant cranes, or with 50,000lb plus forklifts. So its easy to get a container delivered empty, or delivered on wheels. But where I live anyway, its expensive and complicated to get a full one loaded on a flatbed.
I have hired cranes to do it- once had a guy use a 35 ton RT crane, and another time the crane company refused to send out anything smaller than a 250 ton crane. They claimed the computer in their crane told them that at the angle required by my property, thats what it would take.
Where I live, renting a 50,000lb forklift for a day, and having it delivered and picked up, would easily run over 2 grand. It costs me 300 plus for a 3500lb model, which can be delivered on a little 16 foot flatbed pulled by a pickup. A forklift big enough to lift a full 40' conex is a bit more work to transport.

Anyway, my point is that, yes, literally millions of conex containers are shipped by truck, train, and ship every day in the USA, and 99.99% of em are loaded and unloaded either by really really big forklifts, or by cranes. So if you want one unloaded or loaded where there arent already big forklifts or cranes, you pay a lot for the privledge.

Yes you are quite correct, please note in my post I said "Cost is always another question."

Mcgyver
09-08-2012, 08:42 PM
A place I've been many times --the notion that in rural AZ you can't get a conex box (or an entire B52) moved from or to anywhere on the planet is just ridiculous --so long as you can physically get a truck and forklift to the area you're good to go.

in its entirety. how would you propose that is accomplished...to anywhere in the world? or is this another macro quantum fallacy; just wait until the plane pops up where ever you want it to :D

+ or - Zero
09-08-2012, 08:50 PM
in its entirety. how would you propose that is accomplished...to anywhere in the world? or is this another macro quantum fallacy; just wait until the plane pops up where ever you want it to :D

Reading and comprehension count; something may be moved in it's entirety, yet be moved as individual parts.

Mcgyver
09-08-2012, 09:09 PM
but there is no wit to the remark if you are allowed to grind it into dust; obviously anything can be moved via some form of dissassembly. If you could move one sea can from A to B even the dullest could see you could move 1000.

+ or - Zero
09-08-2012, 09:27 PM
but there is no wit to the remark if you are allowed to grind it into dust; obviously anything can be moved via some form of dissassembly. If you could move one sea can from A to B even the dullest could see you could move 1000.

The problem you have with this is that you made the classic error in assuming that "the entire thing" is equal to "the entire unbroken unit". The entire thing is built by assembling smaller parts to begin with --surely you do not think B52's spring from the factory without having been built from sub units that are often the sum of even smaller sub units (we call them 'parts')?

I quite agree that even the dullest *should* notice that an entire thing may be moved as smaller parts. And yes, grinding it into dust would make it smaller, but the reassembly would be rather more difficult then simply reassembling some parts from the more intelligently disassembled thing, what ever it may be. ;)

Mcgyver
09-08-2012, 09:35 PM
what was it you said about comprehension? my meaning wasn't clear enough I suppose, but there is little point in continuing this discussion about nothing

justanengineer
09-08-2012, 09:37 PM
I used to own a 40' conex, and I could find plenty of guys with Landoll type of tilting flatbeds who would transport it empty- but none who would be able to get it up on their flatbed full, at 40,000lbs plus.


As with many other things in life, the trick is in knowing how to do it. The landolls I have pulled were all done so with tractors also used for older heavy equipment non-hydraulic "drop deck" style trailers and coincidentally had ~40 ton IIRC of winch behind the cab. Even if someone had to pay an extra few hundred to get one of these relatively common rigs or even a large wrecker to assist with loading, its probably a small expense compared to the total shipping bill. Personally, I would have a difficult time believing a container of airplane assemblies/parts could reach anything close to 40k lbs without making very tiny pieces of the aircraft, certainly not something that would be disassembled and reassembled without major work and significantly more expense involved.

The Artful Bodger
09-08-2012, 09:43 PM
While we are talking about comprehension I should draw attention again to my opening post. The point is the extra expense incurred because few American transport companies have trucks that can lift a loaded container from the ground.


I was listening to someone today who wants to buy a vintage aircraft from some remote location in Arizona and he told me how expensive it will be because American transport companies will not drop a shipping container on the ground to be loaded? Presumably all container loading is done at dockways?

Someone should start making side lift trucks (no doubt they do but where are they?).

+ or - Zero
09-08-2012, 09:57 PM
what was it you said about comprehension? my meaning wasn't clear enough I suppose, but there is little point in continuing this discussion about nothing

I agree, one of us does not want to understand the other, so we should stop wasting the time on it.

+ or - Zero
09-08-2012, 10:02 PM
While we are talking about comprehension I should draw attention again to my opening post. The point is the extra expense incurred because few American transport companies have trucks that can lift a loaded container from the ground.

Yes, as you point out; "The point is the extra expense incurred", not the impossibility of doing it.

Yow Ling
09-08-2012, 10:50 PM
Is it a trade union thing? Are truck drivers allowed to load their own trucks.
Seems Hiab truck cranes are scarce in the US too, common as mud down here. Truck turns up picks up lathe, drive to my house puts lathe in shed one man one truck , easy as !
Surely it is more expensive to send a truck and a forklift to load the truck , a truck may do 4 or 5 containers a day 6 days a week , the extra expense is nothing compared to the real expense of having a forklift.

tdmidget
09-09-2012, 12:29 AM
Nope. Trucking companies here do not want to pay for fuel to tote a crane that is rarely used. Additionally there is the liability incurred in loading the item and use of the crane. "Crane" is a major red flag to insurance companies these days.

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 01:18 AM
Whatever ever the reason it appears my imformant was not blowing smoke and it is indeed true that American trucking companies are not, usually, equipped to pick up loaded containters from ground level out in the boonies.

wierdscience
09-09-2012, 02:58 AM
Is it a trade union thing? Are truck drivers allowed to load their own trucks.
Seems Hiab truck cranes are scarce in the US too, common as mud down here. Truck turns up picks up lathe, drive to my house puts lathe in shed one man one truck , easy as !
Surely it is more expensive to send a truck and a forklift to load the truck , a truck may do 4 or 5 containers a day 6 days a week , the extra expense is nothing compared to the real expense of having a forklift.

Very few containers here are loaded ground level.Typically every one that uses them have loading docks so no time is wasted loading and unloading the contents.Also a lot of companies use these-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZPRw6xf3h8&feature=related

The same modules are loaded onto over the road trucks for transport to the final destination which saves on fuel.

"Knuckle boom" trucks,same as a HIAB,popular with lumber yards and steel erectors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqnd-tXYUMU

Then there are the hitch-hiker forklifts,these are much more common than HIAB's.Mostly because they can unload and then run all over a jobsite in close quarters something the trucks can't do.I had one deliver and set a vertical mill and lathe once.Took about 15 minutes to unload both and drive them around back of the buyers shop and set them inside.Plus no dicking around with rigging.

http://youtu.be/CcWbyvFF41k?t=49s

justanengineer
09-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Is it a trade union thing? Are truck drivers allowed to load their own trucks.
Seems Hiab truck cranes are scarce in the US too, common as mud down here.


Truck drivers commonly load their own trucks here. Even among the unionized ones working out of a terminal, its not uncommon for a driver to take a "break" from the road and work as a forklift/pallet jack operator loading trailers. I think if you ask many of them, they would prefer to be the one to load any awkward, oversized, or open loads that they have to drive.

Common as mud here too, but not container capable ones, and certainly not on long haul trucks but I doubt theyre common on those down there either. Here dang near every lumberyard, stone cutter, and quite a few other folks dealing with short hauls and heavy crap have them for quck loading/unloading of pallets and other smaller loads. Again, its not the majority of trucks, but finding one available isnt too difficult if you know who has them and how to ask.

Unfortunately, in this country today I see more and more of the "cant possibly do" attitude vs the "can do" attitude. The sad part is that the former is more often seen amongst the middle aged folks that are actually running things.


I was listening to someone today who wants to buy a vintage aircraft from some remote location in Arizona and he told me how expensive it will be because American transport companies will not drop a shipping container on the ground to be loaded?

Not to beat a point to death, but to use the word comprehension - My limited comprehension of this sentence was twofold.

1. US transport companies wont drop a container on the ground....except they do so every day and quite often in remote areas.

2. Getting a container from ground level in AZ to NZ is ridiculously expensive due to the cost of initially loading the containers....the point remains, what is $500-1k on top of a $10-12k shipping bill? Peanuts, thats what. Even at several times my estimate of what it could be done for, its still peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

The guy is blowing smoke. My experience with folks who own planes (via a sibling and sis in law who are owners/builders/EAA members) has been they have quite a bit of excess money, its not a "cheap" hobby compared to most and there are many "wanna be hangers on" who are all talk. Assuming the plane price is on the low end at ~$50k, I would doubt that initial "loading fee" would be much to stop someone who truly wanted it after purchase price + teardown + shipping + reassembly are considered acceptable.

+ or - Zero
09-09-2012, 12:44 PM
There is another reason things are different here then some other places --I'll use New Zealand as one example, simply because that's the location of the OP.

Area of New Zealand == total land area of 268,021 square kilometres (103,483 sq mi)
Arizona == 113,998 square miles (295,000 km2)

Population of New Zealand == approximately 4.4 million
Population of Arizona == 6,392,017 (2010 census)

New Zealand == predominantly urban country, with 72 percent of the population living in 16 main urban areas and 53 percent living in the four largest cities of Auckland, Christchurch, Wellington, and Hamilton.

Arizona == As of January 2012, the population of the Phoenix area is estimated to be over 4.3 million. Phoenix is by far the largest city in Arizona, Tucson is second at 520,116, so it's mostly rural, except for Phoenix.

Now Arizona is just one, probably more or less average size state in the USA.

The point here is that most of the USA is going to look at shipping things as a distance based endeavor --as one moves east (or to southern California) the distances get shorter and the availability of things like self loading trucks becomes more common, but it never reaches truly common as dirt status --the economy of short distance trucking of largish things is less important to the industry as a whole, and so more expensive for those places farther away from large distribution centers.

The average long distance trucker here travels more in roughly 20 hours of driving then the entire length of New Zealand, and it's not unusual for loads to be hauled 3000 or more miles (when possible containers travel by rail and are put on trucks closer to final delivery point --this is not always possible, however).

So what all this comes down to is simply that each place (USA and New Zealand, in this example) have radically differing logistics, so the method of transport in each place is the one best suited to that place.

But in either place any thing can be shipped from place to place, in New Zealand the economy of transport is in trucks that do short hauls and can easily pick up a container, in the USA that would be economic craziness, much cheaper to do long distance large volume transport for the majority of shipping, and then let the few that need 'remote service' pay the extra freight.

So all this issue is, is one of how money is extracted for shipping, based on the nature of the most efficient delivery systems for each place. You know, apples to oranges.

Lest you think I'm down talking New Zealand, I only used it because that is where the OP is. I've been to New Zealand, it's a gorgeous place and one of my personal 'hero's' was born, lived, and died there (Burt Monro).

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 04:03 PM
Common as mud here too, but not container capable ones, and certainly not on long haul trucks but I doubt theyre common on those down there either. Here dang near every lumberyard, stone cutter, and quite a few other folks dealing with short hauls and heavy crap have them for quck loading/unloading of pallets and other smaller loads. Again, its not the majority of trucks, but finding one available isnt too difficult if you know who has them and how to ask.

Hiab (knuckle boom etc) trucks are common here too but it is very rare that I see one able to self load a shipping container even a 20'. All manner of merchants and farmers etc have Hiabs. Trucks that delivery palleted goods to building sites etc have clip on forklifts that hitch a ride on the back of the truck. But we are talking about picking up a loaded shipping container from a rural or remote site.





1. US transport companies wont drop a container on the ground....except they do so every day and quite often in remote areas.
But my sentence was more than dropping it on the ground, I said "to be loaded". The issue is how is the loaded container to be put on the truck at the remote or rural location?



2. Getting a container from ground level in AZ to NZ is ridiculously expensive due to the cost of initially loading the containers....the point remains, what is $500-1k on top of a $10-12k shipping bill? Peanuts, thats what. Even at several times my estimate of what it could be done for, its still peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

Obviously he did not think the loading cost would be peanuts and I suspect he would be right if it involved a container-capable forklift bouncing across the state on a 200mile round trip.




The guy is blowing smoke.
Maybe..


My experience with folks who own planes (via a sibling and sis in law who are owners/builders/EAA members) has been they have quite a bit of excess money, its not a "cheap" hobby compared to most and there are many "wanna be hangers on" who are all talk. Assuming the plane price is on the low end at ~$50k, I would doubt that initial "loading fee" would be much to stop someone who truly wanted it after purchase price + teardown + shipping + reassembly are considered acceptable.

People get to have 'excess money' by various means and watching the cost of everything they do is one of them.

I doubt he is all talk as he is a significant donor to our aviation museum.

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 04:40 PM
So what all this comes down to is simply that each place (USA and New Zealand, in this example) have radically differing logistics, so the method of transport in each place is the one best suited to that place.

It is not just things like population distribution. Much of what NZ produces is exported and much of what we consume is imported which all goes in shipping containers.


But in either place any thing can be shipped from place to place, in New Zealand the economy of transport is in trucks that do short hauls and can easily pick up a container, in the USA that would be economic craziness, much cheaper to do long distance large volume transport for the majority of shipping, and then let the few that need 'remote service' pay the extra freight.


But it still remains that someone wanting to ship a container from remote AZ was not offered a solution that included a reasonably priced option for lifting the box onto a truck. I find that somewhat suprising especially if the population of AZ is more rural than NZ, except of course maybe they dont use shipping containers so much.

tdmidget
09-09-2012, 04:59 PM
I doubt that it is a remote location. Again Bodger if you wish ro tell me where it is I will take a look and advise what resources are available.

+ or - Zero
09-09-2012, 05:18 PM
It is not just things like population distribution. Much of what NZ produces is exported and much of what we consume is imported which all goes in shipping containers.

But it still remains that someone wanting to ship a container from remote AZ was not offered a solution that included a reasonably priced option for lifting the box onto a truck. I find that somewhat suprising especially if the population of AZ is more rural than NZ, except of course maybe they dont use shipping containers so much.

In New Zealand even moving containers to the dock hardly compares to moving one from say Wyoming to a shipping dock at the Port of Los Angles, California. The USA is simply quite large compared to New Zealand. So virtually all shipping in the USA is distance related, not so much loading related, or orientated.

Is there some law in New Zealand that shipping costs must match what the customer finds reasonable? Possibly that is why you are having a problem with some one not getting a quote he thought was 'reasonable'?

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 05:23 PM
I doubt that it is a remote location. Again Bodger if you wish ro tell me where it is I will take a look and advise what resources are available.

Thanks, I dont know where it is and I likely wont see this person for some time but I will bear your offer in mind.

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 05:28 PM
Is there some law in New Zealand that shipping costs must match what the customer finds reasonable? Possibly that is why you are having a problem with some one not getting a quote he thought was 'reasonable'?

Yes, we do have such laws but they are unwritten laws and are all to do with operating a viable business. If I only offer my services at prices that potential clients find unreasonable then I dont get any business. If someone else comes along with tools and equipment that allows him to offer the same service at prices the clients find reasonable he takes my business.

John Stevenson
09-09-2012, 05:30 PM
Nope. Trucking companies here do not want to pay for fuel to tote a crane that is rarely used. Additionally there is the liability incurred in loading the item and use of the crane. "Crane" is a major red flag to insurance companies these days.

Opposite here in that health and safety look for more favourably on a crane than a pulled back.
When I first started on trucks back in 1969 you would kill to get a drop where they even had a fork truck, virtually all out loads, about 19/22 tons in 112lb [ 1 hundredweight ] bags would be hand balled off.

Now even the smallest builders merchants have Hiab cranes. They are called Hiab's here as a generic term like Hoover.

Another thing very common to the Uk are Skip tucks that lift, well skips.

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRybwOIPTLEjZgr8hLupQjZnTiwXKgrV LmhfhsitgTVYWjE_EHNnA

These are brilliant for moving machines as once they are lifted by the chains they can'y slip nowhere and once on the bed a few straps riound the arms will stop them going anywhere.

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 05:43 PM
Now this is interesting..



Containerising freight and transporting it anywhere throughout Queensland and the Northern Territory is thoroughly streamlined thanks to Nortrans and their fleet of side loaders.

Any ISO approved 20? – 40? container can be picked up, without the need of expensive cranes or forklifts, put on the truck and delivered to any designated drop-off point efficiently and economically.


http://www.nortrans.com.au/side_loader.htm


Although neither Queensland nor the Northern Territory are as large as Alaska they are each about twice as large as Texas.

Like I said in my opening post, maybe you guys should be buying some side loaders and filling the need. Use Nortrans as a model.

+ or - Zero
09-09-2012, 06:25 PM
Now this is interesting..




http://www.nortrans.com.au/side_loader.htm


Although neither Queensland nor the Northern Territory are as large as Alaska they are each about twice as large as Texas.

Like I said in my opening post, maybe you guys should be buying some side loaders and filling the need. Use Nortrans as a model.

Size wise yes, road distribution with smaller feeder highways that have reasonable, although not necessarily large population centers on them, then no they are still apples to oranges.

I was born in Alaska, I'm familiar with big open spaces --but it's also why I called Arizona an average size state --I was intentionally restricting my comments to the lower 48 adjacent states.

Also the infrastructure here is both quite large and well established, we have trains that transport containers long distances then break down centers where they get loaded on trucks, which generally go out to places that the contents of the container are then sent out from in yet smaller trucks. So the apple is that we would probably have a rail road already in place to make the same run that the Nortrans (oranges) make.

It's interesting indeed, but not very applicable to the infrastructure in the USA as established. And there would be little to no advantage when compared to rail freight.

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 06:45 PM
So the apple is that we would probably have a rail road already in place to make the same run that the Nortrans (oranges) make.


That is an excellent argument for the side lifter trucks (or any other trucks that can load and unload containers). If you have a rail network the side lifters are an excellent solution for the rail yard to customers yard, short distance as is frequently the job in NZ or long distance as in the case of Nortrans.

+ or - Zero
09-09-2012, 07:21 PM
That is an excellent argument for the side lifter trucks (or any other trucks that can load and unload containers). If you have a rail network the side lifters are an excellent solution for the rail yard to customers yard, short distance as is frequently the job in NZ or long distance as in the case of Nortrans.

Yes it is, however anywhere there is a rail break down center there is already in place systems for rapidly loading/unloading and moving containers in volume (usually quite large numbers of containers in a short time), so not much use for those type trucks. Here the containers are rarely taken off the truck at the destination, as they are emptied at the destination (and possibly loaded with other goods to go back to the station with).

Not that they (side lifters) would have no use, it is just that it would be nearly impossible to make an economic argument for them in any meaningful numbers, considering the already established infrastructure here. And they pretty much do exist here in numbers reflecting their economic viability, which should display the point that if there was any way for the feasible use in the manner you are espousing it would already be being done --and it is already being done here, just on the small sort of one off scale that makes it justifiable. Translate that as expensive. Which is why the person did not get a quote he liked.

This thread seems in many ways to be about some person that simply found something he wanted to do to be to expensive for him to do --I'm reasonably sure that happens to all of us sooner or later, or in my case continually --nothing is ever as cheap as I'd like it to be.

The Artful Bodger
09-09-2012, 08:32 PM
Yes it is, however anywhere there is a rail break down center there is already in place systems for rapidly loading/unloading and moving containers in volume (usually quite large numbers of containers in a short time), so not much use for those type trucks.

Yeabut, I am sure that not all America is big cities and huge freight transfer stations, there must be small towns too, like the one I live in. 15K population, 20K in the wider rural area, a rail stop with a forklift that can handle fully loaded 40' containers. But there is also one side lifter in town which picks up and delivers in about a 30 mile radius though I am sure they would go further if required.



Here the containers are rarely taken off the truck at the destination, as they are emptied at the destination (and possibly loaded with other goods to go back to the station with).
Transport operators here want to get that container off and dont want their trucks standing idle, maybe at places handling palleted loads in the container they would be more amenable to waiting around.




Not that they (side lifters) would have no use, it is just that it would be nearly impossible to make an economic argument for them in any meaningful numbers, considering the already established infrastructure here. And they pretty much do exist here in numbers reflecting their economic viability, which should display the point that if there was any way for the feasible use in the manner you are espousing it would already be being done --and it is already being done here, just on the small sort of one off scale that makes it justifiable. Translate that as expensive. Which is why the person did not get a quote he liked.

This thread seems in many ways to be about some person that simply found something he wanted to do to be to expensive for him to do --I'm reasonably sure that happens to all of us sooner or later, or in my case continually --nothing is ever as cheap as I'd like it to be.

Well, not exactly, the thread was intended to be about why self loading container trucks are viable in NZ, Australia and a lot of other countries but not in the US. So far all the reasons have been pretty much "Well that is the way it is." So I guess we can leave it at that.

kf2qd
09-09-2012, 09:06 PM
It all dates back to rules created to protect the unions. There were a number of ideas that have been presented, but when all is said and done, the union didn't like it so the got the rules they wanted to benefit their padding the job counts in container trucking.

RancherBill
09-09-2012, 09:50 PM
Bodger, your example is a 1 in a million type of situation.

In NA 99.99% of containers are dropped off at a facility that is dock level whether a real dock or a ramp that has been built. The.00999% are at locations where they use a combination of pallet jacks and fork lifts to get the material out of the container.

Twenty foot containers are routinely delivered and loaded for household moving or storage with Heavy Duty Tow Trucks.
http://www.resqtowing.ca/images/service2.jpg.

tdmidget
09-09-2012, 09:59 PM
In the US the maximum weight for a highway vehicle is 80,000 lbs. That side lift rig wastes about 20,000 lbs of that capacity. So the operator who pays out the ass for an aluminum cab, aluminum wheels, and aluminum fuel tanks ( Aluminum frames and axles have been tried) is not going to turn around and hang 20,000lbs of steel on a rig that would rarely be used.

John Stevenson
09-10-2012, 04:12 AM
In the US the maximum weight for a highway vehicle is 80,000 lbs.

That could be the problem.
US has 2000 pounds per ton so your 80,000 reads out to 40 tons.

UK and Europe has a limit at 44 metric tonnes but we have 2240 pounds to a metric tonne so our max weight in US speak is 98560#

I don't agree that it would be rarely used either. that's down to the transport manager to select jobs suited to this vehicle that can be charged out at higher costs than a non equipped vehicle.

The Artful Bodger
09-10-2012, 04:41 AM
The maximum weight for NZ trucks is 53 tonnes, 116,845 pounds. That probably ample for the swing lift kit and the driver's packed lunch.

twopintsplease
09-10-2012, 05:18 AM
I shipped a car from the U.S. to OZ in the late 1980’s and was surprised that side unloading container trucks were virtually unheard of, I had to use a loading dock, I assumed because it was available here in South Australia (a bit of a back water) , it would be really available in the U.S.

Here containers are used for interstate and overseas transport via rail, truck and sea

According to ever reliable Wiki here we are aloud up to 164 metric tons (361,558 lb) with out permits

B double combinations are common at 62.5 ton (137,788 lb)

from the web standard 20 foot container 21,640 kg (47,716 Ibs.) max and

40 footer 26,500 kg (58,433 Ibs.) max

your trucks are to small !

John Stevenson
09-10-2012, 06:45 AM
your trucks are to small !


That's why they always quote in pounds weight, more is bigger ;)

wierdscience
09-10-2012, 10:04 PM
That could be the problem.
US has 2000 pounds per ton so your 80,000 reads out to 40 tons.

UK and Europe has a limit at 44 metric tonnes but we have 2240 pounds to a metric tonne so our max weight in US speak is 98560#

I don't agree that it would be rarely used either. that's down to the transport manager to select jobs suited to this vehicle that can be charged out at higher costs than a non equipped vehicle.


If I'm not mistaken aren't most of the heavy truck trailers in the UK and EU tri-axle rears?We have axle weight limits and the vast majority of trucks and trailers will only run tandem axles.

My brother is an OTR trucker here so I asked him about the side load trailers.He said the tare weight on a container tote and empty 40' sea can is 16-17,000lbs .A 53 foot dry van on the other hand weighs 7,000-11,000lbs.Given the distances we have to run here it's just not practical from a fuel stand point to drag a container can and tote any distance since it's dead weight.

Most containers are broken down and repacked into dry vans and most out bound freight is packed into containers from dry vans.The link I posted earlier shows a inner dolley freight system where the entire load is pulled from the container in one shot.The dolley is emptied and the cargo loaded into a van via forklift.On medium weight cargo many times two container loads of cargo can be fit into one 53 foot van and meet legal weight to go anywhere in the lower 48 states and Canada.

He also said take a look and here you will rarely see any container freight very far from a rail head or port.It's all busted down and shipped in lighter trucks and trailers due to cost and efficiency.