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brian Rupnow
09-15-2012, 09:00 AM
This week I had a visit from an 87 year old gentleman who has a 98 year old, 5 HP Leister gasoline engine. This engine had a combination fuel and oil piston style pump which has two 0.640 diameter brass pistons sliding in brass cylinders and driven by cams on the engine. Each cylinder has a reduced diameter section which he informs me his father used to pack with butchers cord soaked in grease to provide a good seal to make the pump work well. He said that of course this didn't last very long, and he wanted to know if I could suggest an alternative solution. Since the pistons are two peice construction, I can machine an aluminum ring to fill the gap which they originally packed with string and grease and machine an o-ring groove in the aluminum. I know that o-rings are made for both static and dynamic applications, and this seems to me to be a reasonable solution. I just don't know how well a standard Buna N type o-ring stands up to gasoline. Any suggestions?---Brian

Peter S
09-15-2012, 10:37 AM
Brian,
That would be Lister, right? I have a 1917 2 1/2 hp, my father rebuilt the plunger pumps once, I think the only repairs this engine required over many years use.

brian Rupnow
09-15-2012, 11:06 AM
Brian,
That would be Lister, right? I have a 1917 2 1/2 hp, my father rebuilt the plunger pumps once, I think the only repairs this engine required over many years use.
Could well be a Lister. He didn't bring the whole engine over, just the pump.

J Tiers
09-15-2012, 04:48 PM
The Lister is a Diesel...... so if it is a "Lister", that may be a high pressure injection pump..... I'd be surprised if "mop cord and soap" would work very well. Of course, a Lister may have a LP pump to bring up fuel, and that could be it.....

But "gasoline" was mentioned, which a Lister could use for nothing but a cleaning solvent.

The Artful Bodger
09-15-2012, 05:00 PM
Not all Lister engines are Diesels.

Willy
09-15-2012, 06:28 PM
I believe Lister did make petrol or gasoline engines.
I have seen a Lister model B 5 HP engine, this is likely what you are working on. Sorry Brian but I don't have more details than that. Perhaps do a quick search on the model B lister to see what come up with.

The Buna N O-rings should be fine for gasoline. Check the link below for compatibility.

http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm

sasquatch
09-15-2012, 07:16 PM
yup, there are a number of "LISTER" gas engines around.

J. R. Williams
09-15-2012, 10:27 PM
You should be able to locate some leather pump cups for the two piece piston or the later style molded rubber cups. Anything else might score the brass liners.
JRW

J. R. Williams
09-15-2012, 10:36 PM
I mis-read the message and thought the piston was 6+" not 0.640". In that case an automotive brake cylinder cup could be used by cutting a central mounting hole.
JRW

J Tiers
09-16-2012, 12:52 AM
yup, there are a number of "LISTER" gas engines around.

nevah seen nor heard of one..... news to me.

Lister diesels are all over the world, kilotons of them.

The Artful Bodger
09-16-2012, 01:07 AM
Well maybe, nonetheless Lister's 'D' petrol engines were made in the hundreds of thousands and were their most popular engine.

Willy
09-16-2012, 03:00 AM
I mis-read the message and thought the piston was 6+" not 0.640". In that case an automotive brake cylinder cup could be used by cutting a central mounting hole.
JRW

The cup size might be the right size but a conventional brake cup will be only compatible with non-petroleum based fluids. You know what happens what happens when petroleum based fluids are introduced into a hydraulic brake fluid system.

J. R. Williams
09-16-2012, 11:52 AM
Willy
That used to be a problem with the old British natural rubber parts used in brake systems.

Willy
09-16-2012, 02:40 PM
Nothing has changed that I'm am aware of.
Petroleum fluid contamination of a brake system is still a very real concern.
The most common brake system seal material is EPDR (ethylene propylene diene rubber) and it is not compatible with petroleum based products.


http://importnut.net/brakefluid.htm


As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major automotive brake system supplier.............

The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing with mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short time.

brian Rupnow
09-17-2012, 02:05 PM
I found an hours spare time today to give some attention to this Leister or Lister engine.(I'm not sure what the old fellow called it). Basically, there are two plungers side by side in a brass housing that are moved up and down by a pair of cam lobes. The plungers were in really rough shape--lots of vice grip marks on them, and any packing material was long gone. They were bound up severely in their bores. I put the plungers in the lathe and cleaned them up with some fine emery cloth. The plungers are a two part affair, with the largest part being a diameter 0.640" with a 1/4" tail that passes down thru a seperate .640 diameter part . The "packing" whatever it was originally fit in the gap between these two peices. There is a compression spring and a 5/16" check ball in the bottom of the bores---the spring fits around the 1/4" tail and keeps a constant pressure on the ring to keep the packing in place. I machined up 2 aluminum rings 0.638" dia. with a groove for a 1/16" Buna N o-ring and a 1/4" reamed hole in the center. Will they work?---darned if I know, but the old fellow got them free so he can't complain too loudly.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/CONTINUATION%20OF%20MAIN%20ALBUM1/Listerengine003.jpg

The Artful Bodger
09-17-2012, 04:43 PM
I found an hours spare time today to give some attention to this Leister or Lister engine.(I'm not sure what the old fellow called it).

I am sure they are called "Leister" engines in parts of Australia! (Kiwi ducks for cover!);)

BTW, that looks like an excellent fix!

Peter S
09-17-2012, 10:45 PM
The first Listers were built in 1909 and used the plunger pumps. Prior to 1909, Lister sold Stover engines which also had a plunger fuel pump (vertical engines with fuel in the base).

Although the pumps seem to wear out every 50 years or so...the idea is quite good in my opinion. The carb has no float or needle valve, just a weir, so the pump continually over-supplies the carb and the surplus fuel runs over the weir and back to the fuel tank via a return pipe. So no problems with fine holes blocking in this system.

Likewise, the oil is pumped from the crankcase sump up to troughs or reservoirs where it makes its own way to the bearings. Once again no need for fine holes, metering etc. Also, the lube system takes care of itself, no wicks or oilers to fill or turn on and off and is fully enclosed.

There is a hand lever so you can pump up both fuel and oil before starting.

Lister diesels came later around 1929, they used quite a few of the petrol engine parts, even the double plunger pump, but with the fuel plunger idle.

brian Rupnow
09-27-2012, 09:42 AM
I got a phone call about 10 minutes ago fron the old fellow who owns the Leister or Lister engine. He has installed the pump with the new parts I made on the engine, and it is running very well. Nice end to a short story.---Brian

Forestgnome
09-27-2012, 09:53 AM
I suspect the o-rings won't last. They're not too good at resisting erosion while sliding unless the surface finish is really fine. Besides, packing is a tried and true method in this application, and there is a much wider variety of high tech packings now. http://palmettopackings.com/palmetto_packing.html

928gene928
09-27-2012, 10:01 AM
Brian,
Having worked for a company that made "O" rings, I can tell you that Viton is the best material for your application. Gasoline and oil's wont hurt this material. These are available from most sources, like McMaster-Carr.

camdigger
09-27-2012, 10:53 AM
yup, there are a number of "LISTER" gas engines around.

And even natural gas engines for pump jacks. Almost as many as Arrow engines.

Guido
09-27-2012, 11:15 AM
Every ocean going ship worth keeping will have one or more Listers, gasoline, propane, kerosene or diesel for standby emergency power. IF repair parts are ever required, check Yellow Pages of any seaport. DAMHIK. (Don't ask me how I know).

--G

EVguru
09-27-2012, 11:54 AM
This was one of my Lister engines

http://www.compton.vispa.com\lister\IMG_1844.jpg

This one IS a diesel, a CS (cold start) model. It's a 1.4 litre 6hp @650rpm derived from the earlier spark ignition engine and has the dual barrel oil/fuel pump fitted (fuel side blanked off).

The CS designation came from the high/low compression valve (knob on the right hand side of the head) that allowed fairly easy starting. They made them in 3/1, 5/1 and 10/2 versions initially (hp / cylinders) which were uprated to 3.5/1, 6/1 etc by raising the rpm. Later there was an 8/1 that ran at 800rpm and did away with the compression changover valve. I've modified a few blanking plugs to take a glowplug for easier starting on veg oil.

The engine continued in production till the 80's, the cancellation of a large order following the fall of the Shah of Iran finally killing it off. Copies of the engines are still made in India with varying degrees of faithfulness to the original design (a 20/1 engine running at 1200 rpm is quite a terrifying lump!). These are sometimes referred to as Listeroids, but none of them will run on Listerine!

My example came as part of a Start-O-Matic generator plant that was commonly used for supplying farms post war. It had a combined starter/generator and alternator. The control gear sent 24vDC through the house wiring and would auto-start if a load of more than 40Watts was turned on. All with electro-mechanical components.