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Abner
09-20-2012, 03:31 PM
Hi again,
So I have 2 shafts with worn and rough areas where the oil seals will rub. Is it speedi sleves or is there another method?

Thanks,
Abner

ogre
09-20-2012, 03:56 PM
Dont know if your limited but ive heard of welding it up and returning it to a new surface.

michigan doug
09-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Is this an emergency thing, or is there time to fiddle around and restore it to like new?

How much wear and tear is going to be put on the shafts in the future?

Is this a mission critical piece of machinery, or a model engine that leaks too much?

The emergency out on the road repair might be J&B weld and some judicious sandpaper...

Finest regards,

doug

tdmidget
09-20-2012, 05:38 PM
Well , that IS what speedi-sleeves are made for.

alanganes
09-20-2012, 08:02 PM
Second on the speedi-sleeves. We used them all the time (water and vacuum pumps) at the last place I worked. No need for anything more elaborate for many applications.

firbikrhd1
09-20-2012, 09:11 PM
In the past I have turned the shaft undersize by 30 or 40 thousandths, made my own sleeve to press fit on the turned area and then turned the pressed on piece to size. One example is a counter balancer/oil pump/ water pump drive shaft for a Polaris 4 wheeler. The original shaft was worn and rusted badly where the seal for the water pump ran. I turned that shaft undersize, made a stainless sleeve to press on and turned that sleeve to size between centers after it was pressed on. That was over 10 years ago and the Polaris is still working well.

lakeside53
09-20-2012, 10:26 PM
Put on the speedie sleeve. it's a permanent repair often better than the orginal shaft.

oldtiffie
09-21-2012, 02:58 AM
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=1&cp=8&gs_id=w&xhr=t&q=speedi+sleeve&pf=p&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&sclient=psy-ab&oq=speedi+s&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=25b3e54dee689702&biw=1920&bih=851

or "hard-chrome" and re-grind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=1&cp=9&gs_id=2m&xhr=t&q=hard+chrome&pf=p&rlz=1W1IRFC_enAU360&sclient=psy-ab&oq=hard+chro&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=25b3e54dee689702&biw=1920&bih=851

Abner
09-21-2012, 08:01 AM
Mich.Doug & others,

Speedi sleve- at NAPA $48.00. each. I know time vs. money.

The shafts are out of a Braden 2 speed 'carrier bearing'(gear box) for a 20-30 ton winch. My application is a tractor hydraulic winch, so not heavy or regular use. The 2 speed gear box has normal wear, but that shaft seal area will require something. The ends are keyed for sprockets.

I read a recommendation about stick welding with 6012 or 6013 and then cutting this down. I have a tool post grinder so I can get the required finish. I have used speedy sleve's before and was happy. I would like to try the building up method. comments?

michigan doug
09-29-2012, 09:44 PM
The worst case scenario, if you weld it up and turn it down to a good finish, is you warp or bow the shaft and you need a whole new shaft. How irreplaceable is the shaft?

Best case scenario, you learn a new skill and save some money.

Keep us posted how you come out.

doug

LKeithR
09-29-2012, 11:35 PM
The best (?) way to deal with a damaged shaft is to replace it. However, due either to cost or inability to find a replacement, it's often necessary to do some kind of a repair. If all you've got is bit of oil leakage a speedi-sleeve will be just fine. I don't use them very often now but in my earlier years I probably installed hundreds in all kinds of applications. They're often the only fix you'll need but, worst case scenario, if one wears out, simply pop another one on. As has been stated earlier, they are made specifically for this kind of situation.

We used to reserve build-up welding type repairs for situations where there was serious damage to a shaft--usually caused by a loose hub, bushing or bearing--and no replacement was readily available. There is a fairly high risk of warping the shaft and once that happens getting it straight can be a challenge. If a shaft was simple it was often easier just to make a new one. Something more complicated; especially if it had splines, was a good candidate for a build up. Also consider that it's a lot easier to build up the end of a short, stubby shaft and keep it straight than it is to weld right in the middle of a three or four foot long one...

Dr Stan
09-29-2012, 11:45 PM
When I was in the Navy we would weld up and plate worn shafts. We usually spray welded when the damage was .025"/side or more and we had to take precautions to try to prevent warping such as leaving the shaft spinning in the lathe to cool, or wrapping it in an asbestos blanket. Brush electroplating when the repair was less than .025". I've also made, pressed on, and finished machined sleeves. Interestingly enough we only used that method for bearing housings when I was in the service.

tdmidget
09-30-2012, 01:32 AM
When I was in the Navy we would weld up and plate worn shafts. We usually spray welded when the damage was .025"/side or more and we had to take precautions to try to prevent warping such as leaving the shaft spinning in the lathe to cool, or wrapping it in an asbestos blanket. Brush electroplating when the repair was less than .025". I've also made, pressed on, and finished machined sleeves. Interestingly enough we only used that method for bearing housings when I was in the service.
Well I wasn't in the Navy and I wasn't a machinery repairman. But I did work in FAA repair shops and on titanium journals the max removal for flame spray was .010. How would you use a sleeve on a bearing housing?

oldtiffie
09-30-2012, 01:46 AM
If the OP is considering "stick" welding why not (re-?)consider MIG welding as John Stevenson has become a local expert on restoring keyed and plain shafts by MIG.

But as John is pretty well the "go to" person here as regards pics and posts why not ask him for some advice re links to posts and pics.

If it were me I'd be using "Speedie Sleeves" as the default unless there were really compelling reasons why I should hard-chrome and grind or metal-spray and grind/turn the part to sizet.

John Stevenson
09-30-2012, 06:28 AM
Can't comment much on this as I'm not allowed to use speedie sleeves.
Believe it or not the three main motor repairers I work for will not cut corners so speedie sleeves are out as is loctiting bearing into housings.
Everything has to be an original fit.

Grooves in shafts caused by seal wear can be addressed two ways, some if just a light groove with no deep pitting can be carefully polished out with emery cloth to get a smooth area. it's the smooth but that counts. Oil seals are very obliging on shaft tolerance, a 1" seal will handle an undersize of 10 to 15 thou with no problem and that's enough to get light grooves polished out.

Heavy grooves or grooves with bad pitting have to be re machined.
One way is to turn the whole diameter undersize and press a tube on, then machine this back to size. This can be advantageous in that if it's a pump application you can use a stainless sleeve which works better.
Now if welding comes into it then you are going to get distortion, no two ways about this and the only way to combat this is to turn undersize so the transition line of the weld is under the new diameter and weld up everything from the last good diameter you can use a staedy on to the end of the shaft even though some of the other diameters are not damaged.

Again in a pump application you can use stainless weld to give a more durable surface.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/shaft1.jpg

This is a shaft where the bearing diameter was badly damaged, in fact it was less than the output diameter so a sleeve could not be used. Only the left had side bearing diameter was bad, the rest was good but there is no way you can stop this bending so why waste time even trying.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/shaft3.jpg

Finished shaft but what was unusual on this job was the extent of the welding in that no usable diameters were left for a steady and the shaft had to be held in a rotating 4 jaw in the tailstock so the rotor could be dialled in and a clean surface turn onto the shaft, then transferred to a steady so the end could be machined and new centres machines in.

Abner
10-01-2012, 09:27 AM
update - I welded it up with 3/32 6012 rod. My biggest headaches were low spots. I turned it back down and then polished it with sandpaper- it is just a seal surface right. There is the faintest warp in the shaft which is @ 8" long held by tapered roller bearings, sprocket drive in and out. I think what I have done will work for my somewhat limited application of holding back 90w gear oil.
6012 machines nice.

michigan doug
10-01-2012, 12:23 PM
Glad to hear this is a win.

doug