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EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 04:53 PM
My neighbors across the street built a cyclotron. They plan to get into making
isotopes for medical use.

Do cyclotrons only consume power to operate or can they generate power as well ?
If they only consume power, how much are we talking for this kind of application?

What about cooling: media, volume, special considerations ...?

.

RLWP
09-27-2012, 05:20 PM
Your neighbours plan to build a particle accelerator???

Your neighbours are nutcases

In the nicest possible way of course

Richard

EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 05:31 PM
Your neighbours plan to build a particle accelerator???Not future tense. They are pretty far along on the project.


U of A may fill void in isotopes (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/fill+void+isotopes/6761921/story.html)
By Gemma Karstens Smith,
Edmonton Journal 2012.06.11

"To meet that goal, a powerful cyclotron will be
installed in the old Balmoral Curling Club this month."

The nearest detached single family homes are a bit less than 500' away
from the facility. I am a little further afield, but still only "across the street".

.

The Artful Bodger
09-27-2012, 05:31 PM
Cyclatrons require strong magnetic and radio frequency fields both of which would make your electricity meter spin! (Maybe permanent magnets could be used, I dont know.)

MotorradMike
09-27-2012, 05:34 PM
I got to do some radiation testing at TRIUMF in BC a few times.
The cyclotron there was the largest accelerator in the world at that time.
It got protons going at 3/4 light speed.
It consumed enormous amounts of power and didn't generate any.
http://www.triumf.ca/

Your neighbours are probably crazy unless they are pulling your leg.
if the latter is true, report back and we'll figure out how to get them back.

MotorradMike
09-27-2012, 05:38 PM
HaHa:

You said "neighbours" and led us to believe they were rednecks building a cyclotron out of plywood and 2x4s in the hopes of using it to power itself and the homes nearby.

OK boys, now we have to figure out how to get EddyCurr back. :mad:

RLWP
09-27-2012, 05:41 PM
So your neighbours are a university?

In which case, I wouldn't worry too much. They will have been through enormous steps to prove the safety of what they have, and they can afford to pay the electric bill

Richard

EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 05:43 PM
Medical isotope quality mimicked without reactor (http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/2012/06/11/isotope-medical-cyclotron.html)
CBC News 2012.06.11

"The Alberta team was able to produce viable quantities of high-quality
technetium-99m using a 19-mega-electron-volt cyclotron, a circular
particle accelerator, said Dr. Sandy McEwan, a researcher with the
University of Alberta and medical director with Alberta Health Services'
Cross Cancer Institute in Edmonton.

...

The next step is to scale up production from the clinical trial stage to
make the 500 doses of isotopes that are used daily by hospitals and clinics
in the Edmonton area, McEwan said.

Mcgyver
09-27-2012, 05:49 PM
I worked on a deal once involving medical isotopes. as I recall there is an issue in that some half lives are short enough that being Toronto getting much of theirs from a facility in Buffalo (1.5 hours away) is a problem. Ideally you want them in the same building that uses the isotopes. iirc there are cyclotrons that you buy and install in a medical building in dense urban areas...although granted I have no knowledge if these are the same products U of A is creating. Just a tidbit I happened to know about the medical isotope biz

EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 05:51 PM
Hold up with that there rope, partner.
I'm not done yet.

Is the statement, 'A cyclotron only consumes power' correct?
And if so, how much power does one like this need: a little or a
lot.

Where I'm going with this is that the same neighbor is also setting
about building a combined use community (residential, academic,
research and 'mixed use') adjacent to the cyclotron. Daily site
population anticipated to be 20,000.

Curious minds want to know how & where the energy to operate
all this is going to come from. A guiding principal is to use alternative,
non-fossil fuel sources.

.

RLWP
09-27-2012, 05:53 PM
OK, clearly you know a lot more about this than the rest of us. You tell us

Richard

EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 05:59 PM
... as I recall there is an issue in that some half lives are short enough that being
Toronto getting much of theirs from a facility in Buffalo (1.5 hours away) is a problem...
A limitation of deriving them via fission:


Backgrounder: Producing medical isotopes using X-rays (http://www.lightsource.ca/medicalisotopes/)

"In the case of Tc-99m, Mo-99 is collected from the by-products of
splitting the uranium atoms, packaged into nuclear pharmaceuticals and
shipped to hospitals around the world. The Mo-99, with a half-life of
66 hours, decays into Tc-99m, which has a half-life of 6 hours."

EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 06:31 PM
...you know a lot more about this ...Only what I've read.

The overall site comprises two islands amounting to just over 600 acres
of essentially undeveloped farm land in the center of a very mature urban
residential area.

One doesn't just tap the existing adjacent infrastructure for energy (or anything
else) for a project like this.

Photovoltaics, biomass cogeneration and other catch words are bandied about
as alternatives to fossil fuels. However, it would take a pretty sizable array of
panels to heat the coffee pots for the Starbucks outlets that will appear, not
to mention servicing all the rest of the demand from 20K people/day.

.

Fasttrack
09-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Berkley National Laboratory estimates that a typical 30 MeV cyclotron requires about 400 kW to run. Supposing that it was running at full capacity for 1 hour, it would need 400 kW-hrs. Total operational cost for said cyclotron (including salaries for technicians, research scientists, etc): ~1 million USD per year.

There are quite a few cost-benefit analysis reports floating around for various cyclotrons. They're pretty old technology and very much "plug and play" type equipment. Many universities purchase cyclotrons for research, isotope production, even student labs.



As far as I know, TRIUMF is still the world's largest cyclotron. 500 MeV is pretty ridiculous for a cyclotron. Here at IU we have a 137 MeV cyclotron that is considered big. These values are, of course, small compared to synchrotrons. The LHC is a super conducting synchrotron and accelerates particles to about 7 TeV, which is 14,000 times higher energy than TRIUMF.


(EDIT: the 400 kW includes all the peripherals, from vacuum pumps, to chillers, to lights, to coffee pots ... well maybe not coffee pots ;) Also, it would be reasonable to subtract about 120 kW from that figure since we are only talking about a 17 MeV machine. Most of the power usage goes to the RF amplifiers and the magnets. Both of those would scale down by about half, which equates to a reduction of about 120 kW)

To put this in perspective, I just read an article online about how Kellog's "Eggo" plant had reduced their energy consumption by 675,000 kW-hrs by implementing a compressed air system. So, I would guess that any major industrial areas draw significantly more power from the grid than the cyclotron will...

Forestgnome
09-27-2012, 06:54 PM
Cyclotrons are only energy consumers. They're basically a high power transmitter with a chamber instead of an antenna. I suspect you could build a small one on the order of 20-100kw.

bob_s
09-27-2012, 06:57 PM
Okay, so they are re-purposing the University farm. There is most likely sufficient space available to put in a power generation facility also.
So are you going to start up a NIMBY petition to stop the whole thing?

EddyCurr
09-27-2012, 07:28 PM
Berkley National Laboratory estimates that a typical 30 MeV cyclotron requires about 400 kW
to run. ... at full capacity for 1 hour, it would need 400 kW-hrs ... Also, it would be reasonable
to subtract about 120 kW from that figure since we are only talking about a 17 MeV machine.That's not so bad, there are stationary fuel cells that can handle 400kWh. Mind, fuel cells
are still fossil fuel-based energy sources.


So are you going to start up a NIMBY petition to stop the whole thing?Phffft- who'd sign?

.

macona
09-27-2012, 10:04 PM
There is a guy in Alaska that is putting this cyclotron together is over on PM, or at least used to be. I think he went by the name Cyclotronguy. From what I remember he had everyone around getting into a hissy-fit because they have so clue what it is.

There have been people working on small ones using big rare earth magnets. And I think there is even a high school student who set one up. Not terribly complex but the magnetic fields make it somewhat dangerous, though not nearly as bad as a MRI.

Evan
09-28-2012, 12:53 AM
A cyclotron emits radiation as its primary direct byproduct of operation. A bit of noise from some cooling fans and vacuum pumps and that's about it. Radiation is easily stopped by big chunks of concrete. There is a lot of money in medical isotopes. The primary reason for building a local cyclotron is that many of the preferred radioisotopes have very short half lives which is why they are preferred. Short half life radionuclides do less harm to patients. They are used for mapping of organs such as the thyroid with radioactive iodine and for cancer treatment such as radioactive pellets inserted in the prostate. The problem with short half life isotopes is they have no shelf life and can't be shipped far. They need to be made close to place of use.

I have always wanted to build a linear accelerator.

http://ixian.ca/pics9/accel.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics9/accel2.jpg

I already have the globe which is the hard part.

Fasttrack
09-28-2012, 01:10 AM
I have always wanted to build a linear accelerator.



I've built two now. Unfortunately, they were intended strictly for research as they were built with University resources. I always wanted to build one in my basement, so to speak, also. I suppose you are familiar with "electron trees", but for those who are not, just Google "lichtenberg figures"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Po35g23fYI&feature=fvwrel

Evan
09-28-2012, 01:16 AM
Some pretty fantastic shapes that look a lot like neurons for some odd reason.

J Tiers
09-28-2012, 01:37 AM
OK.... Washington University used to have a cyclotron on the main campus, perhaps 200-400 feet from residences across Forest Park Parkway....... no problems, no dimming the lights, fuggetaboutit. The residents in question are the biggest NIMBY's you can imagine, also..... maybe they never knew about it.

Barnes/Jewish Hospital has at least one in the basement, because some of their imaging, etc isotopes have half lives of minutes, and have to be made right there.

A cyclotron can be pretty small..... the size of an MRI machine, perhaps, and can consume about the same power or less. Not some sort of atomic bomb that will suck you all into a black hole. They are straightforward machines, and do what they do nicely.

Y'all need to worry about something important instead.

Evan
09-28-2012, 03:25 AM
What makes me laugh when I think about it is that right in the middle of Berkeley, California, one of the only towns in North America to have a communist government and the centre of everything that is anti-everything, there is, at the University a nuclear reactor in the basement of one of the halls. It's a small research reactor that can even run under remote control but is still a reactor. I wonder how many of the professional protesters know about it?

alanganes
09-28-2012, 07:38 AM
OK....
Barnes/Jewish Hospital has at least one in the basement, because some of their imaging, etc isotopes have half lives of minutes, and have to be made right there.


As a point of interest, Barnes/Jewish is getting another one for proton beam cancer treatment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9-kA3alMl0

I work for the company that developed this. It is a 250 MeV synchrocyclotron built using a superconducting magnet to get the size down to a manageable size (in relative terms). It's been producing beam for a while now and is very close to coming on line.

Rustybolt
09-28-2012, 09:25 AM
My neighbor already has one, but he had to build a nuclear reactor to supply the electricity. When he runs it, it interrupts every one elses electric power.

EddyCurr
09-28-2012, 03:19 PM
I think your neighbor's might be bigger than my neighbor's.

It seems as though Advanced Cyclotron Systems Inc (http://www.advancedcyclotron.com/). may be the vendor on this
build. If so, their product range operates in the 14 to 30 MeV spectrum.


Y'all need to worry about something important instead.It's the bigger picture I'm interested in. T'aint the cyclotron that riles me.

Mind you, wondered early on about the process associated with locating it up the road
in the heart of a residential district. If you can imagine, in May 2011 two plans for the
site were presented to an adjacent community: A) vehicle maintenance pool; B) medical
research and prod'n facility. Oil changes or isotopes - decisions, decisions.

In October 2011, Plan B was announced and the tender process was begun.

Now less than a year later, the site work is nearing completion ? Howzat possible?
There are modest home renovations underway around here that are running past 14 mo.

With 600 acres to build up and 20k people to accomodate, there is a lot that can happen.
However it shakes out, there will be a vast change to the landscape.

.

wierdscience
09-28-2012, 04:05 PM
A cyclotron can be pretty small..... the size of an MRI machine, perhaps, and can consume about the same power or less. Not some sort of atomic bomb that will suck you all into a black hole. They are straightforward machines, and do what they do nicely.

Y'all need to worry about something important instead.

Yep,one of the guys at work used to moonlight as a curier for the finished products.The company had three or four units in different locations.They were no bigger than an MRI.

Evan
09-28-2012, 06:02 PM
Natural gas is dirt cheap and will stay that way for quite a while now. I suspect they may be enlarging the Gas generating plant down by the river.

Yep, I was right. In 2008 and 2009 they commissioned 243 megawatts of gas powered capacity at the Clover Bar Energy Centre.

http://www.capitalpower.com/generationportfolio/merchantcommercial/Pages/CloverBarEnergyCentre.aspx

bob_s
09-28-2012, 07:03 PM
Natural gas is dirt cheap and will stay that way for quite a while now. I suspect they may be enlarging the Gas generating plant down by the river.

Yep, I was right. In 2008 and 2009 they commissioned 243 megawatts of gas powered capacity at the Clover Bar Energy Centre.

http://www.capitalpower.com/generationportfolio/merchantcommercial/Pages/CloverBarEnergyCentre.aspx

The main U of A campus has its own power plant. I don't doubt that the new facility would have its own also.

gearedloco
09-29-2012, 01:07 AM
What makes me laugh when I think about it is that right in the middle of Berkeley, California, one of the only towns in North America to have a communist government and the centre of everything that is anti-everything, there is, at the University a nuclear reactor in the basement of one of the halls. It's a small research reactor that can even run under remote control but is still a reactor. I wonder how many of the professional protesters know about it?

Nope - it's long gone . Not enough Nuclear Engineering students to justify it's existence, given the usual background level noise from the
Bird and Bunny people. The attached office/class room building is now used by the Computer Science people. I don't know what was done
with the space occupied by the reactor. Probably some college or other is growing organic mushrooms in it. Or maybe it was just filled in.

As far as I know, the only cyclotron still operating at UC/LBNL is the 88" machine on the Hill, and maybe it's gone since I retired. The 184"
machine building is now occupied by the Advanced Light Source. The Bevatron is gone - all of the measurably "hot" bits were hauled to Washington and buried somewhere on the Hanford reservation. I forget what the building planned for the site is to be used for.

Evan
09-29-2012, 01:34 AM
I used to help out my father there on his experiments on fusion. He was in the first program to figure out confinement which of course failed miserably. He was running an axial solenoid confinement machine and it all leaked out the ends. Then they tried end mirrors and it leaked out around the edges of the mirrors. Then they extended the mirrors along the axis and the plasma went snaky and contacted the chamber walls and on and on... The Bevatron had just gone into operation then and I watched one run where the beam was directed into free air on the opposite side from the control room. It made a flashbulb like bar of solid blue/purple ionized nitrogen about 20 feet long. The 88" machine was one of the first ones there if I recall correctly.

J Tiers
09-29-2012, 01:56 AM
Natural gas is dirt cheap and will stay that way for quite a while now.


Maybe not...... one big way it is cheap is "fracking", and that is getting somewhat close to being regulated out of existence in some places at least.....

It's still "hot", because the hydrogen component obviously contributes only one of the more potent greenhouse gases around*, but NOT CO2..... so since NG has less CO2, even WITH the bad GG content, it's considered better, and is displacing coal..

*Water vapor... sorta hard to get away from, but still a potent GG.

Evan
09-29-2012, 02:32 AM
The new discoveries in Northeast BC ensure that gas will remain cheap in Canada for a long time. There is enough natural gas there to fill three 46" pipelines to the coast and still satisfy Canadian demand.

Forestgnome
09-29-2012, 11:47 AM
When I was a kid there was a science fair projects book in the library that showed how to make a linear accellerator. It looked like the one Evan posted. I can't seem to find the book online though.

Evan
09-29-2012, 12:15 PM
It's the collected columns of C L Stong who wrote the Amateur Scientist column in Scientific American. I am pretty sure you won't be buying it although it is available.

http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Americans-Amateur-Scientist-Science/dp/0970347626

Void
09-29-2012, 01:12 PM
What makes me laugh when I think about it is that right in the middle of Berkeley, California, one of the only towns in North America to have a communist government ...

Has never been true.


and the centre of everything that is anti-everything,...

Partially true ;)



there is, at the University a nuclear reactor in the basement of one of the halls. It's a small research reactor that can even run under remote control but is still a reactor. I wonder how many of the professional protesters know about it?

Has not been true for 25 years. It was shut down in 1987 and everyone knew about it (which is one of the main reasons it was shut down.)

-DU-

alanganes
09-29-2012, 02:03 PM
It's the collected columns of C L Stong who wrote the Amateur Scientist column in Scientific American. I am pretty sure you won't be buying it although it is available.

http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Americans-Amateur-Scientist-Science/dp/0970347626

That seems to be one of those moronic Amazon prices for stuff that is no longer in print but, still around if you look enough. I have a hard copy of the CL Stong book that I got on one of the on-line book sellers for 30 or so bucks maybe three years ago.

There was also the CD of the entire SA "Amateur Scientist" column in the above link that was available. I have an original of one of those as well that I bought when the Society for Amateur Scientists" first published it. There are downloadable copies of that floating around the web, and torrents of it as well, if one looks around enough.

I wanted a particle accelerator too. Not sure why, but why not? I get to run one at work now form time to time, and I climb all over one almost daily.

Evan
09-29-2012, 02:47 PM
Has never been true.

Other than city council financially supporting the local communist party and other similar activities, you are only partially correct. I was born in Berkeley and grew up there. Berkeley has a long history of socialism.


In the 1911 Berkeley elected a Socialist Party mayor, J. Stitt Wilson. A Socialist Party member was elected to the Berkeley City Council. About eight hundred people filled the Finnish Hall for a pre-election rally and later a victory celebration.

Wilson was a member of the Finnish Comrades' Association.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/finntown.htm

danlb
09-29-2012, 03:37 PM
Other than city council financially supporting the local communist party and other similar activities, you are only partially correct. I was born in Berkeley and grew up there. Berkeley has a long history of socialism.

Wilson was a member of the Finnish Comrades' Association.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/finntown.htm

I'm fairly certain that electing a member of a socialist party as Mayor in a democratic election does not change the political structure to being communist. If that were true our town would become a tribe if a Native American were elected Mayor. :) Berkeley politics do have a distinctly socialist lean, but that is within a normal city structure.

It seems there are a lot of reactors around. I can point out 2 "research reactors" within 15 miles of my house. Google maps give a good overview of one installation, but no street view. :( https://maps.google.com/?ll=37.608656,-121.837499&spn=0.013259,0.025663&t=h&z=16


Daniel

Evan
09-29-2012, 05:25 PM
Read up on the history of Berkeley. You may change your mind.


If that were true our town would become a tribe if a Native American were elected Mayor.

Bad analogy. It isn't applicable to civic politics.