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George Bulliss
10-12-2012, 10:23 AM
For those that missed my rant last week in the “Shop Made Tools” thread, I’ll give a brief recap.

I had three members contact me, upset that a site (HomeMadeTools.net) was pulling their material and displaying it on their site without permission. The site had links to a for-profit site, Hotrodders.com and the members were unsure as to what their posts were going to be used for.

I have since been in touch with the owner and here is what I know about the situation: HomeMadeTools is intended to serve as an index of home built tools across the net. The owner claims that there is no commercial intent. The owner remains the administrator on Hotrodder.com, but no longer owns it.

As I had mentioned in my original post/rant, Village Press has no say in the second use of our member’s material and we don’t plan to do anything about this. I’ve contacted the owner only to help out members that may not want their material used. It’s your material to do with as you wish.

Should you not want your material displayed on www.homemadetools.net, contact me via a PM or email (gbulliss[at]villagepress[dot]com) and I’ll pass his email address on to you. He has stated that if you want him to remove your material, he will be happy to do so.

oldtiffie
10-12-2012, 06:39 PM
That was well handled George, but in many cases once an item is "on the net" it could be read or ignored on the one hand or be used for what-ever purpose by others - or it could go "viral" - and provided it was not re-posted who would know?.

If anyone was going to use a post/pic for personal gain there seems to be little or nothing that can be done about it without some cost.

Nobody would ever know if any items were "lifted" from here - either in posts generally or the "Shop Made Tools" thread directly - at:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/39202-Shop-Made-Tools

To some extent it is a risk that exhibitors take when they display a model etc. at a "show". Who is to know what a photographer is going to use the pics for? And how do you stop it - or can you? Some get it easier by using pics of a "show" posted on a "Show" web site?

And who here has taken pics of other peoples work for their own personal or "for gain" use? And who has not?

RussZHC
10-12-2012, 07:01 PM
IMO: George, whatever that was it was pretty far from a rant...concern, well reasoned thought, clarity of situation defined are usually not involved with a rant :cool:

Dr Stan
10-12-2012, 07:02 PM
I have yet to post to the shop made tools, but probably will at some point. I can certainly see how the OP's would be highly upset about their intellectual property being poached. In academia it is called plagiarism, a.k.a. theft.

George you did the right thing and if you catch anyone else poaching they should be held accountable. I do have one difference of opinion. The OP should not have to tell the poacher to remove his/her material. Instead a site like Home Made Tools should be required to request permission from the OP.

Just my $0.02 worth.

danlb
10-12-2012, 07:47 PM
Just my personal opinion:

I post to a forum to share information and viewpoints. I do not to it to enrich the forum. If someone takes my post and provides wider circulation there is no harm as I am not seeking benefit from the post in the first place. Increasing the number of viewers would seem to be a good thing. I view my intentional posts to a forum as donations to the public discourse.

OTOH, I do like this forum, and would not like to see it wither because someone is siphoning off viewers.

:) It looks like none of my shop made tool posts made it to homemadetools.net. I guess it is a moot point for me. haha

Dan

oldtiffie
10-12-2012, 07:52 PM
Nice sentiments Stan.

But how could "accountabilty" be enforced and if it can are the expenses, inconvenience and possible legal costs worth it?


Instead a site like Home Made Tools should be required to request permission from the OP.

How would you make that stick?

Some items here go pretty close to the wind as regards plagiarism - and if academia has lots of costs in even getting some - and certainly not all of it - how would the author or agent detect and take action against it here?

I think that in reality we just have to in large part just accept things as they are on the web and get on with life.

As I see it, in case of a pic that was copied from "Shop Made Tools" (here) to another site and given that as I understand it, ownership/copy right is vested in the creator of the original work/pic and that George/VP is only providing a platform for showing it here that the issue really is between the originator and who-ever copied it either for their own use or to another site. In short it is the responsibilty of the"owner" to take issue with the "offender".

My guess is that most here appreciate the risks and post anyway.

Dr Stan
10-12-2012, 08:27 PM
how could "accountabilty" be enforced and if it can are the expenses, inconvenience and possible legal costs worth it?

That's the tough part. When I've had manuscripts published by peer reviewed journals I had to assign the copyright to the publisher. They were then on the hook for any and all costs arising from legal issues, including plagiarism.

Now back to reality. Would VP be willing and able economically to take on this role? I seriously doubt it and I certainly wouldn't expect VP to jeopardize its profits and possibly its working capital to take on a plagiarizer as most if not all of us understand just how expensive a court fight can become.

Probably the most that can be done is to:

1) restrict the Shop Made Tools sub-forum to registered members

2) Post in BIG RED LETTERS Thou Shalt Not Steal This Content

and

3) ban anyone who violates this rule

Again, just my $0.02 worth.

John Stevenson
10-12-2012, 08:41 PM
At least he has assigned the articles to the original owners unlike some blogs / web sites that trawl round, post what they can and offer no accreditation at all, even hinting it's their own work.

sasquatch
10-12-2012, 08:49 PM
I,m not sure what to think of this situation, i have been through part of the Homemade Tools site, and noticed quite a few names on each project posted there.

oldtiffie
10-12-2012, 09:08 PM
And as it is the originator of the "work" that holds copy-right - unless it has been assigned previously - it would or may be encumbent on the "originator" to prove that it is in fact an/his original work and is not in part or in total a work that has been done by others. If he did not it may turn out that he is in breech of copy-right of another - even if unknowingly and unwittingly. And how might he find out?

Some things are best left alone.

Harvey Melvin Richards
10-12-2012, 10:33 PM
I have several tools on the site and one that's been credited to me, but wasn't made by me. I don't mind the posting of my work. I originally posted it here so that others would be inspired by it. None of my tools are worthy of any sort of patent protection.

I like that this new site has made it easy to search for work by a specific individuals name. Some toolmakers have their own sites like Frank Ford, others like me, just throw their work onto a few forums.

J Tiers
10-12-2012, 11:11 PM
Copyright no longer means much...... outside the US, at least.....

If you do not like the "lifting", you are free to go to your original picture source (you DO link from "the bucket" or other host, and do not embed*, right?) and replace them with a "homemadetools,net stole this posting" notice.

Otherwise, let it be. Basically you released it into the wild by posting it here.

* I don't know if embedding is possible here, I would never do it. It is possible elsewhere.

wierdscience
10-13-2012, 12:27 AM
The stuff I post here is free for anybody to use since it was posted to be a benifit to someone in need.

That said there is a lot of stuff that I wish I could post but won't because I know my compitition might be watching.

It's the Internet folks,think before you unzip your fly:cool:

Evan
10-13-2012, 01:39 AM
You can threaten to have the site taken off Google if you find your content on the site without permission. All you have to do is file a takedown notice and the site in question has a short time to either defend the appearance of the material or take it off line. While the forum owner is not responsible or liable for infringing posts made by forum users they are required to respond to a takedown notice. That is Google policy and is based on US law.

http://support.google.com/bin/static.py?hl=en&ts=1114905&page=ts.cs

What Weird said: You are free to use my posted material. I ask that you credit me if you do use it in public.

Evan
10-13-2012, 01:50 AM
I don't know if embedding is possible here, I would never do it. It is possible elsewhere.

Otherwise known as "hot-linking". It is possible although a lot of sites will detect it and not allow it to work. Hot linking to other content is about as stupid as it gets. It isn't the same as stealing the content since it also steals the bandwidth of the content server. That I do enforce by scanning my server logs from time to time. I will replace the image with a warning and leave that up for a few weeks. If they don't take action then I replace it with something a little bit less friendly to remind them how foolish it is.

oldtiffie
10-13-2012, 02:26 AM
You can threaten to have the site taken off Google if you find your content on the site without permission. All you have to do is file a takedown notice and the site in question has a short time to either defend the appearance of the material or take it off line. While the forum owner is not responsible or liable for infringing posts made by forum users they are required to respond to a takedown notice. That is Google policy and is based on US law.

http://support.google.com/bin/static.py?hl=en&ts=1114905&page=ts.cs

What Weird said: You are free to use my posted material. I ask that you credit me if you do use it in public.

I would think that there would be very few here who would take that action as it is really going to pi$$-off those that want to use of keep using that site. Who ever does it - if it is done - would not be too well thought of if they did it and bragged about it here.

The big "plus" for the Hand Made Tools site is its excellent indexing - but it has images only - no explanatory text/discussion as is the case on the "Shop Made Tools" thread here.

The big "minus" for the SMT is not having a good indexing feature perhaps on a seperate site which can be linked to from here as well. At the moment, trawling (crawling?) though the SMT is a good waste of time or a big PITA.

The content of the SMT thread really is excellent and better use of it should be provided/enabled - as was discussed and regarded as a "really good idea" in the earlier part of the SMT thread when these impediments were becoming more obvious by the day. Perhaps people here just gave up trying - perhaps not - who knows?

The sooner the SMT thread is well indexed the better.

If nothing else the HMT site has shown how it can be done very well.

mrriggs
10-13-2012, 03:48 AM
Otherwise known as "hot-linking". It is possible although a lot of sites will detect it and not allow it to work. Hot linking to other content is about as stupid as it gets. It isn't the same as stealing the content since it also steals the bandwidth of the content server. That I do enforce by scanning my server logs from time to time. I will replace the image with a warning and leave that up for a few weeks. If they don't take action then I replace it with something a little bit less friendly to remind them how foolish it is.

It does piss me off when people use the bandwidth that I'm paying for. I've caught people "hot-linking" from my web server and replaced the images with a PG-13 message.

As for people copying stuff I've posted, I couldn't care less. I put it out there to be read. It doesn't even bother me when they try to pass it off as their own. Eventually they will look at themselves and not like what they see. That is their problem, not mine.

mike4
10-13-2012, 05:21 AM
I beleive that if any person/corporation or business that does not want their product or design copied then do not post it on a public media.
How many of us have copied or changed someone elses design to make it more to our liking or to work how you want..
Michael

The Artful Bodger
10-13-2012, 05:32 AM
A few sites have posted my 'pampered tools' drawer liner project from my Shop Made Tools thread but the ones I have seen have asked my permission and/or given me full credit.

I am happy with this as I am happy for others to repeat anything I put 'out there'.

rohart
10-13-2012, 08:35 AM
At the risk of hijacking this thread towards a more constructive discussion - no offence, George, but the original topic seems to have run its course - I have to agree with oldtiffie about the difficulty of accessing the projects on the SMT.

I do accept that even if a sensible indexing system is established, which needs to allow a blogg-type discussion after each project, a lot of editing would be required to knock what's already there into shape.

I sometimes wonder if it would be easier to create a Shop-Made-Tools forum, one project per thread, with a sticky at the top of this forum that acted as an index into that forum, with a two or three line description of each project. The real project would have a full presentation and discussion thread in the SMT forum.

Readers could browse the forum in both ways - as a normal forum of threads, or through the sticky. The format of the sticky would have to be strictly controlled by George, if it was not to have special software written for it. The format of the threads in the SMT forum would be standard.

This solution would require no software. It would require the current SMT thread be broken down into individual project threads, and the creation of the sticky. From then on, it would require the addition or an entry into the sticky for each new project thread. Very little ongoing work for a much better method of accessing, and this work have to be done at some time inth e future if any publishing is envisaged.

Rosco-P
10-13-2012, 08:36 AM
The big "plus" for the Hand Made Tools site is its excellent indexing - but it has images only - no explanatory text/discussion as is the case on the "Shop Made Tools" thread here.

The big "minus" for the SMUT is not having a good indexing feature perhaps on a seperate site which can be linked to from here as well. At the moment, trawling (crawling?) though the SMT is a good waste of time or a big PITA.

The content of the SMT thread really is excellent and better use of it should be provided/enabled - as was discussed and regarded as a "really good idea" in the earlier part of the SMT thread when these impediments were becoming more obvious by the day. Perhaps people here just gave up trying - perhaps not - who knows?

The sooner the SMT thread is well indexed the better.

Another minus of SMT is all the off topic and slightly off-topic banter. The high-fives and unrelated discussions, one recent posting wasn't a tool at all, a technique and not a valid one. How about deleting any post that isn't a posting of a tool or a clarification of the tool posted? The thread would be back on it's original track, smaller and more readable.

Mcgyver
10-13-2012, 09:17 AM
At least he has assigned the articles to the original owners unlike some blogs / web sites that trawl round, post what they can and offer no accreditation at all, even hinting it's their own work.

seems like they just link back to where the content appeared originally...that doesn't bother me....at first I thought it was a another one of these rude ones who take the work and credit or no credit don't have the decency to ask permission.

vpt
10-13-2012, 11:01 AM
The stuff I post here is free for anybody to use since it was posted to be a benifit to someone in need.

That said there is a lot of stuff that I wish I could post but won't because I know my compitition might be watching.

It's the Internet folks,think before you unzip your fly:cool:


^ That. If you don't want people to see/use your pictures, simply don't post them on the internet. The internet is a highway, once out there it is pretty much free for the taking.

Don't buy a phone and then complain about people calling you.

bborr01
10-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Hello Everyone,

Just thought I would share a few thoughts that I have on the subject of the shop made tools thread that I started.

Early on in the thread I stated that my intention was to index the contents of the thread to make it more user friendly. I bought the domain name shopmadetools.com. Started to ask permission from others to use their posts. Got permission from several posters but many came with the stipulation that they could not be used in any commercial way.

I started to gather information on what would be needed to run a site like that. Hosting fees, web development fees, software at about $400 if I wanted to develop and host my own site. You get the idea. Lots of $$$$$ involved for something that cannot be used in a commercial setting to recoup some of the money spent. And that doesn't include a whole lot of time beyond what I have already spent on researching the subject.

I suppose that I could have started the site and paid for it with my own $$$. Then when/if it took off start selling advertising and let anyone who had a problem with it remove their content. But that is not how I roll. Also lately I have been running my own commercial shop and spare time is at a premium.

I also agree that there is WAY TOO MUCH patting each other on the back in the thread. One person in particular seems to always do this. I think they like to see their handle on the top of the page every time they log in. (yes, I have patted some posters on the back myself but try to keep it to a minimum)

As far as others lifting content or using the shop made tools thread for their endeavors, I have seen that PM has a shop made tool pics thread that seems to be modeled after the shop made tools thread from this site. Can't recall if they also lifted content from this site.

I also have looked at the homemadetools site and have not found it easy to search for things. I suppose that you need to join to use the search function so I don't know if any of my postings were used there.

edit: I just did a little more looking at the homemadetools site and found out that I am one of the top contributors with 21 postings. Also found it kind of odd how long their policy is regarding copyright.

Brian

Harvey Melvin Richards
10-13-2012, 06:19 PM
A few sites have posted my 'pampered tools' drawer liner project from my Shop Made Tools thread but the ones I have seen have asked my permission and/or given me full credit.

I am happy with this as I am happy for others to repeat anything I put 'out there'.
One of the tools that is credited to me on the site was actually your work.

Edit: Looks like its been fixed.

oldtiffie
10-13-2012, 07:05 PM
There are many excellent "tools" in various threads and posts here.

Some appear in "Shop Made Tools" - others not - but many should be. I don't know how it is done or whom - by George?

There is no way that (in most cases) a tool that you want to see again can be found by searching most threads as all to often once a thread gets to about one page or so it wanders off on its own in ways that bear no relationship to the title or intent of the thread.

The best way - to me anyway - is to search for posts by a poster (including OP's) that I recall contributed to the discussion on the tool in question and hope that the required thread turns up..

In that case - to me at least - that tool/thread/posting is lost and cannot (easily?) be retrieved - and so it is "lost" even though is is "still there".

Doubtless there will be some who have "book-marked" it and can retieve/resurrect it and others who have the depth of computer skills to find it in their own way.

But that leaves those who have not "book-marked" it or who don't have the skills to find it left stranded - but they should not be.

At this stage it seems that the quickest and most likely way to find a tool is to search the Hand Made Tools site and if it was not "selected" by HMT to go back and laboriously seach the Shop Made Tools thread - which is a shame - any many may just simply "give up" when with a bit more patience and time they might find it.

oldtiffie
10-13-2012, 07:25 PM
Hello Everyone,

...............................................

Early on in the thread I stated that my intention was to index the contents of the thread to make it more user friendly. I bought the domain name shopmadetools.com. Started to ask permission from others to use their posts. Got permission from several posters but many came with the stipulation that they could not be used in any commercial way.
..............................................

Brian

A very good reply and update on most matters regarding indexing the SMT site.

The part of your post that I have quoted effecfively stops it cold and/or severely restricts its scope as there is no way that I can see that the "restricted" posts could be restricted as the authors want, so I guess they would have to be left out.

Those posts of those tools would have been posted as a normal pic in a thread here before it was moved/copied to the SMT thread and at that stage the image/s could be easily "lifted" without anyone knowing of it - so the "cat is out of the bag" and in the Public Domain from that point on.

Having you or the poster seek to restrict it probably won't have it happen.

Perhaps it would be best to ignore "restricted" posts and get on and only use those which the authour/s have given unrestricted permission to just publish for use by anyone for any purpose.

I am surprised that those that required their posts/tools to be restricted have seen fit to leave them on the SMT thread.

goose
10-13-2012, 07:42 PM
If you don't want people to see/use your pictures, simply don't post them on the internet. The internet is a highway, once out there it is pretty much free for the taking.

Don't buy a phone and then complain about people calling you.

Agree.

Copyright infringement and plagiarism are to the www as noodles are to Cambell’s chicken soup. Just eat around them junior if they bother you so much.

lazlo
10-13-2012, 08:57 PM
At least he has assigned the articles to the original owners unlike some blogs / web sites that trawl round, post what they can and offer no accreditation at all, even hinting it's their own work.

^^^^ What he said!

loose nut
10-14-2012, 05:10 PM
Copyright no longer means much...... outside the US, at least.....



Very true but not worth much in the US either. Once something has been digitized it can spread like the clap and there isn't much that can be done to stop it.

Before the Internet you had the Sneaker net. People passed tapes, CD's, and DVDs around and copied them. You can copy printed books even. There wasn't anyway of stopping that either.

Welcome to the WWW.

J Tiers
10-14-2012, 09:14 PM
More than it might, in the US.

Once you KNOW about it, you have things that can be done about it. I know of artists who got 6-7 figure settlements for egregious infringement of their work.

And it is pretty clear-cut..... I'd rather sue for copyright infringement than patent infringement any day. You can actually WIN with copyright infringement, and receive your damages.... Without spending several million to get there.

Evan
10-14-2012, 09:21 PM
I suppose that you need to join to use the search function so I don't know if any of my postings were used there.

You can use Google to search any public site online. search term site:placeontheinternet.com

Evan
10-14-2012, 09:26 PM
Incidentally, issuing a takedown notice does not take a site off line. It forces Google to delist it if it is upheld and not responded to. Nothing more, but if the site is commercial that is the kiss of death.

jkilroy
10-14-2012, 09:42 PM
Change the names of the photos and then post OFFENSIVE (think nasty gay porn) pics in place of the originals. THAT usually gets their attention! :D

Evan
10-14-2012, 10:22 PM
Which is why hot linking is so very stupid.

Rosco-P
10-23-2012, 07:32 PM
I had three members contact me, upset that a site (HomeMadeTools.net) was pulling their material and displaying it on their site without permission. The site had links to a for-profit site, Hotrodders.com and the members were unsure as to what their posts were going to be used for.


A slight update, I see Ken from home made tools is now lifting stuff from Chaski.

Black_Moons
10-23-2012, 09:49 PM
Well, I have posted a few home made tools. And all I can say is. Great. Index them. Id hope to at least get credit for it, but whatever. If my pictures get turned into more real tools, I have helped others at no cost to myself, Nothing I posted there I had planed to make money off of, or I wouldn't of posted it.

sasquatch
10-23-2012, 09:56 PM
I have to agree with blackmoons. I have nothing posted there, but i have gone through much of it and feel it is a great helpful site.

Just my opinion, but sharing info and helping others is a good thing.

Chester
10-24-2012, 08:30 AM
Have to agree with both BlackMoons and Sasquatch. A couple of my things are on there and that is just fine by me, as it is a very good clearing house for original ideas, that others may find useful. They always reference the source, which I find also helpful as sometimes it is an overlooked (by me) site. I say the more ideas in one place the better.....

Kinda like Facebook in a way, once posted it is out there. Don't post anything that you don't want to find on another's computer.

These past couple of days, it has been rainy, and I have been re-reading my issues of Projects in Metal, but this time instead of making notebook entries, I've scanned the interests on to my computer. Another source (for me) of ideas. Plan to do the same with the HSM issues. Very relaxing.....a few hours on the couch with the neighbour's dog (Beagle) with the stove going.