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View Full Version : Much Machining here-Big engine:



sasquatch
10-28-2012, 09:39 AM
The first V8 engine over 1000 Cu. In.


www.sonnysracingengines.com/engines/sar-1005-2150-hp-new-for-2012

Forrest Addy
10-28-2012, 12:02 PM
Must be a hell of an engine lots of authentic billet parts.

I can't see this thing in a car because it's plain too big for anthing but a show car or a tractor pull rig. Maybe in a boat. But who wants the fire hazard and low fuel economy of a gasoline engine when great well-tested diesel engines abound?

Airplane? What's the Llb/hp? Will it qualify for approvals? Looks like it has dual ignition.

Cool project though. Be interesting to follow news of its acceptance and succes

Bob Fisher
10-28-2012, 12:38 PM
If you build it, they will come! Bob.

LKeithR
10-28-2012, 01:19 PM
...lots of authentic billet parts.

So what exactly is an "authentic billet part?" Especially in the context of a on-off, hand made item...

justanengineer
10-28-2012, 01:28 PM
Sonny's been fairly successful, but unfortunately many of his claims of being the "first" are rather exaggerated as this one is.

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2012, 02:37 PM
I expect the first 1000cid V8 was made about 1910.....

EddyCurr
10-28-2012, 02:37 PM
The Sonny's 932ci model has a 5.75 stroke, so this means the pistons are about 5.08".

With bore centers of 5.30, the block for that 932 engine doesn't have a lot of
meat left in the walls for enlargement.

Increasing the stroke to raise the displacement to 1005ci seems impractical on
its own, too. With the 5.08 pistons, stroke needs to be 6.20 for 1005ci, quite a
jump of 0.45" over 5.75 which is already a sizable stroke.

With 5.219 (5-7/32) pistons and a stroke of 5.875, displacement becomes 1005ci.
Not sure how such pistons would be accomodated in a block based on 5.30 bore
spacing - I believe 5.125" dia pistons have been pretty much the limit that would
still accomodate sufficient wall thickness between cylinders.

Whatever the stroke, resulting piston speed means that RPM must be a lot lower
than one usually associates with a race engine. With 5.75" of stroke, at just
5,000 RPM, those pistons will travel over 4,790 FPM. That is fast.

(For comparison: 2006 F1 V8's at 18k had piston speeds of about 5,025 FPM,
Cup engine were just a little slower at 4,875 FPM.)

Bob Fisher
10-28-2012, 05:08 PM
I expect the first 1000cid V8 was made about 1910.....
But I doubt it cranked out 2150 HP.. A lot of early engines were huge, but ran at very low RPM's compared to modern engines. What rpm was the 2150 measured at? Bob.

sasquatch
10-28-2012, 05:20 PM
No mention of Dyno RPM, but on his site i posted, the Ft Lbs of torque are posted as 1550.

Think there is a video on his site of it running on the dyno, be interesting to hear it run,, still a "Fine" piece of workmanship.
Custom engines like this are kinda the ultimate in maching , as everything is built .

sasquatch
10-28-2012, 06:19 PM
If you click on Sonny's site i posted,, then look up in the RH corner of his home page and click on "Shop Tour", interesting stuff.

bob ward
10-28-2012, 07:16 PM
Reading their web, site Sonny don't claim its the first ever V8 of over 1000 cu in but it is THEIR first. Its an interesting design and manufacturing accomplishment. What market(s) are these engines aimed at?

sasquatch
10-28-2012, 07:31 PM
Bob, from what i read, it appears these engines will be used for drag racing and truck pulls.

The first engine has already been sold to a drag racer.

dave5605
10-28-2012, 11:53 PM
Those are mainly for drag racing where there is an unlimited class with very few engine rules. I haven't checked his site lately but I remember his high HP drag racing motors commanding $70-80,000 a pop.

If you want to run with the big boys be prepared to pay.

As to bore/stroke. It doesn't matter when the block is custom made too. You don't have the limits of some previous manufacturers parts. Just cast, forge your own.

Oh, oh, I just checked. Looks like he has a couple of high end motors for a mere $90,000. Has a nice street version, 1000 HP for $31,000

MrFluffy
10-29-2012, 09:54 AM
He has it listed in his drag racing engines section, so I agree with Dave.
In that category you basically only stick with stock parts for budget reasons, you almost always hit strength/size limitations when you step up to the next level, and quite a lot of xyz engines are anything but. And some of the professional teams have serious budgets. Rules say it must be a certain type usually, but clones with adjusted dimensions are accepted by the sanctioning bodies usually.

On my kz engined drag bike, the only stock unmodified part left inside the motor is the camchain.
My crankcases & head is heavily modified but on a base of standard kawasaki castings.
The guys stateside taking the same base faster again make new crankcases completely from raw material stage (racecase) and run custom made heads. The same applies to harley dragbikes, the final product has no parts left from Harley themselves or any relationship to the bike of the same name apart from the two cylinders and the name on the tank.

Expensive game, and a lot of bespoke machining... Its why Im interested in it :)

tdkkart
10-29-2012, 11:28 AM
I see he lists a 75mm dia camshaft, off the top of my head that's close to 1" larger than your garden variety Chevy cam, which means he can get another .500" of cam lift.
I don't doubt that he's well over 1" of lift at the valve, which is what it would take to feed 125cu/in per cylinder with 2 valve heads.

Sonny Leonard has been the top dog in big inch motors for many years, wasn't so long ago that 700 inch motors were the big deal, now old hat and garden variety.

I see a couple of his motors list priced at $75,000, +$2500 to add EFI instead of carbs, which is a bargain for a top notch EFI system.

Paul Alciatore
10-29-2012, 12:11 PM
What puzzles me is that he appears to be bragging about using "billet" for parts like the crankshaft and tie rods. Wouldn't forged parts be a lot stronger and possibly lighter too? And yes, I know that forging such parts in small quantities would be really expensive. It is just that he seems to be bragging about them. I would put a warning on them.

Arcane
10-29-2012, 01:12 PM
Odds are he is using the word "billet" to appeal to his customer base who you'd think would know the difference considering the money they spend on the engines, but often people with a lot of money aren't always the most knowledgeable.

Willy
10-29-2012, 01:47 PM
Sonny Leonard has been a VERY successful high performance engine builder for over forty years.
I would think that at this juncture and with the number of records his customers have earned...he probably has a pretty good handle of what works and what doesn't.

Just because we at this board have taken a somewhat jaded connotation to the word "billet" because of it's often silly over-use, does not mean that these parts are automatically inferior.
Metallurgy is a very broad and intricate field and to automatically lump anything with the word "billet" attached into the dumpster solely because of the word "billet" is misguided.

I'm sure if an engine builder with 40+ years history in a very flourishing business recommends a certain component or type...he has a much better understanding of that component than most arm chair pundits.

A little food for thought on crankshaft material selection as it applies to racing engines from Engine Builder Magazine.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/1440/drag_racing_crankshafts.aspx



Forgings generally produce a flowed grain structure, which is stronger than a casting. Even so, the forging process stretches, pulls and deforms the grain structure, and subsequent machining cuts through the grain structure. The strength of the forging also depends on the metallurgy of the alloy used, and the heat treatment that is applied to it after it has been shaped. Forgings require a die to shape the metal. Dies and forging presses are expensive (which adds to the cost of the crankshaft), so the availability of forgings for various applications depends on their popularity and how much people are willing to pay for a forged crank.

Billet crankshafts, by comparison, are CNC machined from a solid chunk of forged steel. The grain structure is not stretched or deformed, and machining leaves fewer residual stresses in the metal. Consequently, some crank manufacturers say billet cranks are the strongest cranks available. Most Top Fuel drag racers run billet cranks, as do many circle track racers. ..............................................

Forestgnome
10-29-2012, 03:01 PM
The Sonny's 932ci model has a 5.75 stroke, so this means the pistons are about 5.08".

With bore centers of 5.30, the block for that 932 engine doesn't have a lot of
meat left in the walls for enlargement.

Increasing the stroke to raise the displacement to 1005ci seems impractical on
its own, too. With the 5.08 pistons, stroke needs to be 6.20 for 1005ci, quite a
jump of 0.45" over 5.75 which is already a sizable stroke.

With 5.219 (5-7/32) pistons and a stroke of 5.875, displacement becomes 1005ci.
Not sure how such pistons would be accomodated in a block based on 5.30 bore
spacing - I believe 5.125" dia pistons have been pretty much the limit that would
still accomodate sufficient wall thickness between cylinders.

Whatever the stroke, resulting piston speed means that RPM must be a lot lower
than one usually associates with a race engine. With 5.75" of stroke, at just
5,000 RPM, those pistons will travel over 4,790 FPM. That is fast.

(For comparison: 2006 F1 V8's at 18k had piston speeds of about 5,025 FPM,
Cup engine were just a little slower at 4,875 FPM.)

The 1000ci block isn't the same one used in the 932ci.

sasquatch
10-29-2012, 04:08 PM
Excellent post Willy!

Anyone that reads his 40 year history of the number of record holders running his engines will notice that this guy is not the average engine builder.
A shop tour of his place would certainly be quite informative.

EddyCurr
10-29-2012, 08:18 PM
EddyCurr View Post
The Sonny's 932ci model has a 5.75 stroke, so this means the pistons are about 5.08".

With bore centers of 5.30, the block for that 932 engine doesn't have a lot of
meat left in the walls for enlargement.

Increasing the stroke to raise the displacement to 1005ci seems impractical on
its own, too. With the 5.08 pistons, stroke needs to be 6.20 for 1005ci, quite a
jump of 0.45" over 5.75 which is already a sizable stroke.

With 5.219 (5-7/32) pistons and a stroke of 5.875, displacement becomes 1005ci.
Not sure how such pistons would be accomodated in a block based on 5.30 bore
spacing - I believe 5.125" dia pistons have been pretty much the limit that would
still accomodate sufficient wall thickness between cylinders.

Whatever the stroke, resulting piston speed means that RPM must be a lot lower
than one usually associates with a race engine. With 5.75" of stroke, at just
5,000 RPM, those pistons will travel over 4,790 FPM. That is fast.

(For comparison: 2006 F1 V8's at 18k had piston speeds of about 5,025 FPM,
Cup engine were just a little slower at 4,875 FPM.)The 1000ci block isn't the same one used in the 932ci.Then neither are the heads, crank, intake or numerous other parts that are
affected by the basic bore spacing measurement.

I'll be interested to read more about the block used for the 1005 engine if
you have a link.

.

Doozer
10-29-2012, 08:55 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-finished_casting_products


Billet-
For the colloquial use of the term, see Bar stock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_stock).

A billet is a length of metal that has a round or square cross-section, with an area less than 36 sq in (230 cm2). Billets are created directly via continuous casting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_casting) or extrusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrusion) or indirectly via rolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling) an ingot.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-finished_casting_products#cite_note-arcelormittal-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-finished_casting_products#cite_note-summit-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-finished_casting_products#cite_note-2) Billets are further processed via profile rolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profile_rolling) and drawing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawing_%28manufacturing%29). Final products include bar stock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_stock) and wire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-finished_casting_products#cite_note-degarmo-3)


There you go. Live it up.
--Doozer

Willy
10-29-2012, 10:09 PM
Then neither are the heads, crank, intake or numerous other parts that are
affected by the basic bore spacing measurement.

I'll be interested to read more about the block used for the 1005 engine if
you have a link.

.

The 1005 is a completely new motor sharing little if anything with the 932.
Below are two links with more details and photos of the 1005 engine.

http://bangshift.com/blog/mountain-motor-a-closer-look-at-the-1005ci-2100hp-naturally-aspirated-monster-from-sonny-leonard.html

http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/magazine-articles/sonnys-1005ci-giant

justanengineer
10-29-2012, 11:30 PM
A little food for thought on crankshaft material selection as it applies to racing engines from Engine Builder Magazine.


Not to be disagreeable, but Ive somehow been under a 12 month free "trial" subscription to Engine Builder for about 5(?) years now, and honestly its like a lot of the hobby auto rags - interesting articles, good ideas, but quite often terrible science. I wrote in to them once when they made a claim about increasing compression ALWAYS yielding higher power, and they politely disagreed which is frankly comical. Then again, they also post pics of "modern" dyno cells being run via a warm body and joystick.

Sorry I cant comment much about "billet" vs forged cranks as Im not a crank designer nor a metallurgist. One thing I can say that is related, is that when asked my favorite crank guy gets a really good laugh out of this one and then recommends a forging if at all possible. I suspect in reality its more a matter of cost vs durability while taking into account who and how the cranks are made.

Willy
10-30-2012, 12:37 AM
[QUOTE=justanengineer;]Not to be disagreeable, but Ive somehow been under a 12 month free "trial" subscription to Engine Builder for about 5(?) years now, and honestly its like a lot of the hobby auto rags - interesting articles, good ideas, but quite often terrible science. I wrote in to them once when they made a claim about increasing compression ALWAYS yielding higher power, and they politely disagreed which is frankly comical. Then again, they also post pics of "modern" dyno cells being run via a warm body and joystick. .................
................
........

QUOTE]

No argument here, In among the gems of info there I too have noticed that not all there is to be taken as gospel. They do however cater more to the professional engine building/rebuilding industry rather than the slack jawed crowd that most of the auto mags accommodate.

The only reason I selected them is that the article illustrated the fact that when it comes to, cost be damned, bleeding edge, crankshaft technology, the general consensus among top level race engine builders is to choose billet cranks vs forgings.
I could have picked another source, this one was handy and I thought perhaps a little more credible.

Costs for the various forgings needed to accommodated the multitude of differing crankshaft dimensions won't be cheap either. The efficiency of modern 5 axis cnc turn centers can recover a lot of the cost involved in the production of a billet crank.

Also, I wanted to distance the high end billet crankshaft industry from the billet belt buckle market.

As a side note the crankshafts that are used for the 1005 cu.in. engine are sourced from one of the leading crank builders in the motor sports industry. His past and current clientèle list reads as a who's who of the many facets of motor sports.
Below is a link to Bryant Crankshaft's production photos of their crank building process.

http://bryantracing.com/portfolio-post/production-photos/

Forestgnome
10-30-2012, 10:56 AM
You could probably say that without CNC machining a low production item such as this would never have been developed. Something to be thankful for.

MrFluffy
10-30-2012, 12:16 PM
Pete Davis of Puma race engine's work was all on manual machines. Larry McBride runs a Puma and has done for many years amongst other famous names and firsts in the motorcycling drag world.
http://www.britishdragracinghof.co.uk/members/pete-davies

jim davies
10-30-2012, 06:55 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine

sasquatch
10-30-2012, 07:26 PM
Much Thanks Willy for posting that Bangshift page of engine specs!! Very interesting.

Forestgnome
10-31-2012, 09:50 AM
Pete Davis of Puma race engine's work was all on manual machines. Larry McBride runs a Puma and has done for many years amongst other famous names and firsts in the motorcycling drag world.
http://www.britishdragracinghof.co.uk/members/pete-davies

I see your point. Casting lends itself to low production stuff. Casting technology has come a long way too. Wasn't always the case you could get the kind of strength from casting that you can now. I was looking up those Puma cases and found this "insider" view of a top fuel drag bike. What a rocket ride!

http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=251029

john hobdeclipe
10-31-2012, 11:01 AM
The 1000 cubic inch engine is listed as a drag race engine, as are many other somewhat smaller engines on the builder's site. Here's something I'm curious about:

How long does an engine like that last? How many 1/4 mile runs between rebuilds? How many total races can you run before the $110,000.00 engine is reduced to scrap? How much fuel does it burn in a 1/4 mile race?

EddyCurr
10-31-2012, 12:44 PM
The Hot Rod article on Sonny's site offered by Willy in post #23 mentions
aspirations for a detuned street version of the 1005ci engine. This varient
is projected to produce nearly 1,700 HP, but it is the redline that is the
eye-opener.

At the stated limit of 7,000 RPM, a stroke of 5.875" produces piston speeds
in the order of nearly 6,900 FPM. Anyone who is interested can pick some
other examples from the performance world, do the math and then draw your
own conclusions about engine durability under such operating conditions.

IMO, observing a redline of 4,000-4,400 RPM would result in near production
car durability, all other things equal.


How much fuel does it burn in a 1/4 mile race?A standing Rule-of-Thumb has been "a 1/2 lb fuel per Horsepower Hour". These
days, Brake Specific Fuel Consumption down in the order of 0.3-0.4 lb/HP/HR
is observed in some cases, but the R-o-T makes for easier calculations.

2,200 HP x 0.50 BSFC = 1,100 lbs fuel/hour x 6.07 lbs/USGal = 181.2 gal/hr

So, use 3 gal/minute and divide by the anticipated ET for a 1/4 mile
consumption estimate.

For comparison, a Top Fuel car on nitro might use up to 12 gal in the actual
race and around 23 gal in total for the entire run.

EddyCurr
10-31-2012, 12:57 PM
Keep in mind the challenge presented by the task of fitting four primaries
of nearly 3" dia each down both sides of the block, out to a pair of 5"
collectors and beyond. Snaking past suspension, steering, oil system,
cooling and ect.

Finding space for 2" primaries, 4" collectors, a transversely-mounted suitcase
-sized resonator and 3" tail pipes all under a domestic sedan was job enough
in a previous life.

sasquatch
10-31-2012, 06:34 PM
Interesting post Eddy, thanks for your'e response.