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aostling
10-28-2012, 08:10 PM
If the incoming storm floods the subways, won't that take out most of the utilities for New York City? I waited for a downtown subway at 6 am on a Sunday in August, and took this photo. It looks like there are lots of cables on the roof at this station.

When I lived in Butte, Montana (1978-82) they said there were three thousand miles of tunnels under the hill. Once they let those tunnels flood it was never feasible to pump them out. I hope New York has more of a chance than Butte.


http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/subwaystation.jpg

dp
10-28-2012, 08:50 PM
If the incoming storm floods the subways, won't that take out most of the utilities for New York City? I waited for a downtown subway at 6 am on a Sunday in August, and took this photo. It looks like there are lots of cables on the roof at this station.

When I lived in Butte, Montana (1978-82) they said there were three thousand miles of tunnels under the hill. Once they let those tunnels flood it was never feasible to pump them out. I hope New York has more of a chance than Butte.

The same problem exists with the now flooded Berkeley Pit. There is no where to put that much polluted water and it is now leaching out into the water table. It really needs to be refilled with dirt.

I recall during the post 911 tower collapse there was a great deal of concern of a wall collapsing that would have allowed the East River to enter the pit and then enter the subway tunnels that were exposed. The result would be every tunnel in Manhattan would have filled with water and likely stayed that way for centuries (my opinion). A 10-hour storm surge could do a lot of damage. Those tunnels carry a lot of power and data, not to mention air circulation systems, escalators, elevators, etc., that would ensure an easy path to the very lowest levels quickly. Down there, there is nowhere else for the water to go, so there it will stay.

It reminds me of this disaster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNo-gEPWVnM

The Artful Bodger
10-28-2012, 11:27 PM
The London Underground has doors that can shut off the tunnels, presumably in case the Thames should ever enter the system. Maybe a relic of WWII concerns about German bombs.

wierdscience
10-28-2012, 11:42 PM
There was a show on just last week,only paid a little attention to it,but this very subject was discussed.

There are flood doors and pumps and IIRC they said worst case if the entire system flooded it would take 30-45 days to pump it out.

Of course the damage to the infrastructure would take longer to fix,but that's the price paid for putting it underground in the firstplace.

aostling
10-30-2012, 01:17 PM
I found an image on the internet showing damage to a store front which I had photographed on 5 August. Here is 111 South Street, as I saw it on that hot summer day

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/clams.jpg


and here it is on the day after Hurricane Sandy


http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/afterSandy.jpg


I know a couple who live two blocks from the boardwalk at Long Beach, NY. They decided to stay instead of evacuate, and they boarded up the windows of their house. I don't see how Home Depot in NYC had enough particle board in stock for everybody who must have wanted to buy it.

aostling
11-20-2012, 09:50 AM
This looks like a promising solution to the problem of blocking storm waters from entering the subway tunnels. From
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/science/creating-a-balloonlike-plug-to-hold-back-floodwaters.html?ref=science



http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/Screenshot2012-11-20at74334AM.png

bborr01
11-20-2012, 10:05 AM
Allan,

That looks like a good solution, as long as the power doesn't go out.

BTW, when I first saw your posting for the "BIG SANDY", I thought you were talking about the Big Sandy Wash up near Kingman. My Arizona property overlooks a big area of the big sandy wash.

Brian

aostling
11-20-2012, 11:27 AM
Allan,

BTW, when I first saw your posting for the "BIG SANDY", I thought you were talking about the Big Sandy Wash up near Kingman. My Arizona property overlooks a big area of the big sandy wash.
Brian

I was thinking of that wash when I chose the title. I regretted my choice afterwards, but glad you know about that place. Your Big Sandy can go from dry to flood in a flash, swallowing up cars or trucks thinking they can get across.

bborr01
11-20-2012, 12:17 PM
I was thinking of that wash when I chose the title. I regretted my choice afterwards, but glad you know about that place. Your Big Sandy can go from dry to flood in a flash, swallowing up cars or trucks thinking they can get across.

When it rains hard in monsoon season, the rule is stay back. Way back. A rancher's diesel pickup ended up going in the drink when the bank washed out. Totaled it. The residents of our ranch that live on the other side of the wash tell me they are on a first name basis with the hotel operators in Kingman. They spend a lot of time there during monsoon season.

Brian

oil mac
11-20-2012, 12:35 PM
The London Underground has doors that can shut off the tunnels, presumably in case the Thames should ever enter the system. Maybe a relic of WWII concerns about German bombs.

Yes Artful that is correct, These big doors were built just at the beginning of the last great war, by the Glenfield &Kennedy Co of Kilmarnock in Scotland , As a precaution in one part of the system where the river Thames could flood the tunnels, They are arranged to be cosed electrically or in the case of loss of power they can be very quickly closed by hand power

These doors i understand withstood a bomb blast on the river side, but held back the blast saving many lives

Guido
11-20-2012, 01:35 PM
It might be cutting it short, considering Herc Sandy's leadtime, but the plugging off of a tunnel has already been researched:

www.tamintl.com

and, www.baski.com

Could save feds reinventing the wheel, millions since 2007?

--G

oldtiffie
11-20-2012, 04:41 PM
These Thames Barriers (UK) would take some beating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&rlz=1R2IRFC_enAU360&sclient=psy-ab&q=thames+barrier+facts&rlz=1R2IRFC_enAU360&oq=thames+barrier&gs_l=hp.1.1.0l4.0.0.1.23257.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.l es%3B..0.0...1c.9E9Eif0S7PQ&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=584b092946b3f909&bpcl=38897761&biw=1920&bih=884