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View Full Version : Need a trailer to carry 3000 lb Gorton 9J mill



katou
11-06-2012, 07:09 PM
Hello all, I have become the owner of my first mill, a Gorton 9J.

Now I just have to transport it from Warsaw Ont. to the East end of Toronto.

I have a pickup on loan, and the seller will load it onto a trailer.

I just need a trailer.

Uhaul trailers will take 3000 but in their case, 2000 of that is the trailer itself!

Anybody know someone who might want to lend me a trailer for a case of beer?

And failing that, rent one?

Thanks,

Katou

KiddZimaHater
11-06-2012, 07:21 PM
I'm sure there are several different rental places in Toronto.
Check with a couple. Most have low-bed, Hydraulic lift trailers with 7000Lb. capacity.
I found this rental place here in Texas, that rents trailers for $64.
Just a thought.
http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/Equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0240150&catid=s421

BigJohnT
11-06-2012, 07:23 PM
You can borrow one of mine but the fuel cost might be prohibitive.... in any case I have grossly over loaded trailers and used good judgment on speeds and managed to get home.

http://gnipsel.com/shop/unload-308/images/unload-308-02.jpg

John

owl
11-06-2012, 07:27 PM
Some time back I was looking to rent a skidsteer. (Actually wound up buying a backhoe!!) The deck of trailer the skidsteer was on was about 6" off the ground. The skidsteer must have been at least 3K. Rent the skidsteer, park it for the day and move your mill.

randyjaco
11-06-2012, 07:44 PM
You might an ad in your local Craig's List. You might find someone willing to rent you his.

Randy

sophijo
11-06-2012, 08:15 PM
The "drop-deck" trailer is a really great idea! Roll it on and off.

HSS
11-06-2012, 08:17 PM
Katou, I weighed my Gorton 9J on a commercial truck scale and it weighed in at 3660 lbs. We loaded it with a very large skid steer loader and unloaded it with a 4000 lb fork truck. It was still a JOB loading and unloading.
Patrick

katou
11-06-2012, 09:22 PM
Thanks all, good ideas. I especially like the one about renting a skid steer and then just using the trailer! That gave me a laugh.

I keep hoping that one of the locals on the board will chime in with a nearby solution...

I also thought about trying to rent a roofer's trailer, you know the ones that they use to dispose of old shingles? I figure a paltry 50 bundles of shingles = 3000 lbs.

The more places I have to call, the better my chance of finding one to rent.

Katou

customcutter
11-06-2012, 09:43 PM
Try to find a "drop" trailer like Kiddz recommended. It'll be the easiest/safest to unload. Also make sure that your load is "centered" over the axles, but slightly tongue heavy.

If you rent the skid steer, it might come in handy for unloading. 3000# is a lot weight to take off of a trailer. Do you have any experience rigging???

Ken

flylo
11-06-2012, 11:20 PM
This is like I want to build.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Anderson-HGL10612-Hydraulic-Drop-Deck-Scissor-Lift-Trailer-6-x-12-/290749182941?pt=Trailers&hash=item43b20073dd

justanengineer
11-06-2012, 11:42 PM
I would highly suggest renting a Uhaul or other fleet trailer vs borrowing for liability's sake. FYI - I brought my Bport (1500 lbs) home on a single axle Uhaul utility (open flat deck), and was at ~50% of its rated capacity. I think it cost ~$20 for 24 hrs.

katou
11-07-2012, 07:54 AM
I hear you on the Uhaul, but the biggest they have is 3000 lbs, and the trailer itself is 2000 lbs!

I brought my lathe home, it was 5500 lbs. That's about the extent of my rigging experience.

But I have read MANY articles on the internet. I've even watched Youtube videos of people moving machines!

I'm going to do this, one way or another, as long as I can get a trailer that is.

I'm awfully tempted to rent the Uhaul trailer and give it a go. Those things are built like tanks!

Katou

justanengineer
11-07-2012, 11:21 AM
I hear you on the Uhaul, but the biggest they have is 3000 lbs, and the trailer itself is 2000 lbs!


Is there a 3000 lb limit on what your tow vehicle can haul? Trailers are heavy, but typically the rating does not include weight of the trailer itself. I suspect youre mistaking GVW (gross vehicle weight) with capacity. Or...does the local store simply stock only teensy tiny trailers?

http://www.uhaul.com/Trailers/

I rented one of these lil utility trailers in the middle, but the rating they give online doesnt seem accurate IIRC from what I rented. From what I see online, it appears they do rent trailers rated to at least 2200 lbs if you go with a tandem axle utility.

I once borrowed my brother's single axle motorcycle trailer and Sierra to tow my 4000 lb truck. It held the weight without issue, but was a royal PITA to load. I then bought a 7k lb rated tandem axle used but gave up on that project pretty quickly as it needed everything. Now I happily rent and dont worry about maintenance.

dave5605
11-07-2012, 11:44 AM
Can you just put the mill in the bed of the pickup and tie it down real well? You can get it off with a wrecker that has a boom on it. Call up your local wrecker service. Might cost $50-75.

Of course if your friend's pickup is pristine he probably won't like that idea. I own my own pickup so pristine isn't in my vocabulary.:o

Mcgyver
11-07-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm sure there are several different rental places in Toronto.
Check with a couple. Most have low-bed, Hydraulic lift trailers with 7000Lb. capacity.
I found this rental place here in Texas, that rents trailers for $64.
Just a thought.

I've look extensively and no luck....would love to hear what info you have on these being available in TO....I sure would like to able to rent one! They are a magnificent design


Hi Katou, gotta get that mill home!

they are a challenge given the height, weight and being top heavy. dissassembly would be a pita, but might reduce some of the challenges. take a cherry picker with you sort of thing.

katou
11-07-2012, 07:03 PM
Dang McGyver, you were one of those I was REALLY hoping had a solution for me!! How have you moved things around in the past then?

If you've not found a good way out, then I feel my task is considerable. If time and wisdom haven't nailed it...

To Justanaengineer, I am indeed referring to the large 6x12 that they list as having a 2,100 lb rating. I think the office told me 3000 gvw, and I subtracted the weight of the trailer, to come up with my 1000 lb limit. Not the wrong way to go, but the GVW isn't 3000, it's 4000, which makes a considerable difference.

With a 2,100 lb limit, I think I'd risk loading it up to 3600.

On the little 4x6, it has a line that is to be used as a limit when filling with gravel. I filled it with sand, and easily trebled the volume I was supposed to have in there. No issues.

The truck was sluggish as hell, and the tires looked a little low on air, but otherwise it held up with nary a complaint.

I may have found my solution. Hey, only $40 to rent too!

So, what do I do if he puts it down, and then the suspension bottoms out...

Take some stuff off and put it into the back of the pickup I guess.

Or go into Peterborough and start looking for something stouter I suppose.

Katou

Mcgyver
11-07-2012, 08:00 PM
I've three mills, and each was moved with some level of heavy equipment. they're big machines and top heavy. First one, when a newb was by machinery movers. vertical xlo. 3 guys with a drop deck and forklift. Expensive, but they show up and i watch enjoying a strong french roast. they manhandled or 'walked it' to where i wanted in the garage. civilized machinery moving.

Next one i phoned around until i got a good deal on a crane truck, $75/hour. Still, it could be a 6 or 8 hour proposition for you...they charge from when leaving their shop until the return. One guy and i directed all the rigging, he didn't know how to lift a machine. A good way to move if you have basic rigging knowledge (depending on the machine its farily simple)

Last one i called a favour from a friend who makes very large offroad forklifts (construction, mines etc) biggest forklift i've ever seen on a 50' drop make the ellion horizontal look tinsey. forks extended it right into the garage.

that's my mill moving experience. You have the benefit of offloading at your end (assuming you can call on that again). I would network/phone around and get a flat deck axle truck....I know where i can get one for $50/hour in Niagara...too far for where yours is but the point is deals are out there. Heck I've called businesses who's trucks I've seen on the road - they don't have to be trucking firms to like making a few hundred cash when things are slow.

I've also used tilt and load tow trucks....but I'm not so sure I like that idea for mills which are top heavy.

I did spend a ton of time trying find a drop deck trailer for rent. no luck. Even phoned the manufactures to ask who they've sold to here.

If its you and a pick up.....I'd be thinking take it apart and borrow/buy/rent an egnine hoist and maybe even two trips

there's just a cost to get equipment out and covering long distances....wish I had silver bullet (or a drop deck lol)

katou
11-07-2012, 08:02 PM
Speaking of which, what would be easy to take off, assuming I need to shed some weight?

The motor will probably have to come off just to get it into my shop.

Can anybody point me to a picture of a similar sized mill on a skid?

I can make a skid up, but I'm not sure what size/orientation would be best.

Hmm, I wonder, can I get that Uhaul up in Peterborough, then do a one-way trip thing? That would save $20 or so on gas for sure.

Katou

customcutter
11-07-2012, 09:13 PM
What size pickup are you going to be using, to tow the mill. A full size 1/2 ton would be minimal, and a 3/4 or 1 ton much better.

A single axle trailer with 5 lugs is a 3500# axle (less the weight of the trailer itself). A tandem axle trailer should be capable of carrying it.

A single axle trailer with 6 lugs is a 5000# axle (less the weight of the trailer). A tandem axle trailer will definitely carry it.

Some vehicles are only rated at 300# bumper load.

There is no way you are going to carry a +3000# mill in the bed of a pickup truck, even a 1 ton.

Make sure you secure the top and bottom of the mill, when you load it on the trailer. They are extremely top heavy, in an emergency stop situation there will be a lot of momentum if not secured properly.

It sounds like you need professional help or a lot more research.

Ken

katou
11-07-2012, 11:00 PM
Well, I never suggested putting it in a pickup, that was another poster.

I really appreciate your info on the types of axles, that is very, very useful! Thankyou!

Here's my plan, you tell me if I missed anything.

Mill on a skid, approx 4ft wide, 6 ft long.

Skid made of 4x4 clear hardwood lumber half-lapped and bolted on with 5/8" carriage bolts. (I'm a woodshop teacher)

When in trailer, nail/screw on pieces of wood between skid and sides of trailer. This will lock the base in position.

Top is secured using ratcheting load straps from trailer top rails, one pulling front, one pulling back, one left, one right. This will lock the top in position.

No tarp, tarps rip, flap, shred, then put teeny pieces of plastic all over and through the tables.

That's my best shot, so don't be gentle. If I'm missing something, I'd much rather know now.

Oh, it's a 1/2 ton truck. I tried to get my buddy to upgrade, but did he listen? Nope. You try to help people...

Katou

BigJohnT
11-08-2012, 07:51 AM
Bring a roll of stretch wrap to bind up any loose items etc.

John

justanengineer
11-08-2012, 08:06 AM
To Justanaengineer, I am indeed referring to the large 6x12 that they list as having a 2,100 lb rating. I think the office told me 3000 gvw, and I subtracted the weight of the trailer, to come up with my 1000 lb limit. Not the wrong way to go, but the GVW isn't 3000, it's 4000, which makes a considerable difference.


Dam, I was hoping it was gonna be something simple. Sorry I couldnt give a good solution. Around here every redneck and his sister either have trailers or the "need" to rent them every other weekend. I always get a giggle whenever I see a single lawnmower on a trailer 4x its size being pulled by a long bed diesel dually.

dave5605
11-08-2012, 11:37 AM
Be sure that 1/2 ton is rated to handle the load. The first thing to be overloaded will be the brakes. Not fun when you can't stop. Second don't try it with a short wheelbase truck unless you have lots of hauling experience. The tail will wag the dog.

Be sure the rating of the trailer tires handles the load. Lastly as someone else mentioned, axle ratings should be paid attention to. Overload it too much and the wrong kind of bouncing may just snap the axle flange off the axle and you will lose the wheel.

As to hauling things in the bed of a pickup. As long as the tire, brake, and axle ratings can handle it, it's no big deal. Of course you need to be able to secure the load too. I've had upwards of 4000# in heavy duty 3/4 tons with no problem and close to 6000#in 1 ton crew cab duallys without a problem. That dually had a 10,000# rated rear axle. Of course a loaded down truck drives and stops a lot different from a empty one.

Also with an empty truck and a heavily loaded trailer behind it you better make sure you have the tongue weight figured out or you will find the trailer driving the truck and you praying for a ascending grade to help you pull it under control. BTDT.

BTW,I don't advocate overloading tires, brakes or suspension when hauling things.

katou
11-08-2012, 06:06 PM
Check rating of axles on trailer

Check rating of tires on trailer

Check rating of hitch on truck

Check rating of brakes on truck

Check rating of axle on truck

Check tongue weight of hitch on truck

I think thats everything?

If I just check the rating on the hitch, won't that tell me also what the brakes/tires can handle?

I believe that tongue weight is supposed to be 10-15% of trailer plus load?

Assuming mill is 3660 and trailer is 2000 = 5660

10% of 5660 is 566 lbs tongue weight correct?

Holy Joe, 566 lbs seems like a lot!

Katou

dave5605
11-08-2012, 10:18 PM
No way are the brakes on a 1/2 ton pickup going to be able to stop 10,000+# in any reasonable distance. The trailer needs its own surge brake mechanism (that works).

The hitch has its own rating. Typically based on things like how it's mounted, ball size, etc. it's independent of the vehicle although should be compatible. The hitch should have a label stating max tongue weight and trailer weight, for the hitch. Yes, probably somewhere in the 10-15% range.

Either on the trucks drivers door jamb or the drivers side door opening you will find the gross load rating of the vehicle. If you have the equivalent of passenger tires you are probably not close to what is required. Pay attention to what is the max loading as stated on the tire sidewall. Be sure to have them pumped up to the max indicated on the tire too.

If a 6000# trailer gets away from you, you will not be able to recover. It's important to have enough tongue weight to maintain control of the tow vehicle and the trailer. Braking is typically where the problem occurs. The rear axle of the tow vehicle unloads and all heck breaks loose.

One last point, here in the states we have the DOT, dept of transportation, that regulates loads on highways. Our license plates have to at least match the combined load or you run the chance of serious fines. They also do truck inspections. It's not a problem until you get stopped for some reason then it can be get expensive quickly. Even to the point of you cand move the vehicle as loaded or $1/pound overweight fine.

Just be aware if you have something similar and act accordingly.

flylo
11-08-2012, 11:14 PM
Katou, Not to be disrespectful but if you don't have the proper equipment or knowledge please find someone who does even if you have to pay them. It sounds like you have to borrow the truck then rent the trailer & are unsure of what it takes or how it's done. Find the right person with the right equipment then learn so you'll be ready next time, and yes you can haul a mill in the right truck, lower the table, lay the head on plywood on the table to keep the CG as low as possible. My Cummins/Dodge has a 11,000# GVW. If you were here all it would take is fuel & food. Good luck!
LOL! Ask Cuemaker as we hauled 3-mills, 1-Johnson bandsaw, 1 3-headed drill press, & misc in the bed & on a 12' tilt trailer & had no problems & still got better than 20MPG.

katou
11-09-2012, 12:36 AM
Dave 5605, could you tell me about an example of this:

"Braking is typically where the problem occurs. The rear axle of the tow vehicle unloads and all heck breaks loose."

Maybe an example of a time when a friend, or job you were helping on went south? It would help me out quite a bit.

Thank you for the info on how fines COULD be calculated, I did not know that. I'm unlikely to run into problems until I end up on on the local 6 lane highway.

I will see what I can find out on the truck, I will check all of those things you recommended checking. I've carried heavy loads before, but never any that pushed the limits like this.

Any chance you would like to visit Toronto FlyLo? I know some nice people that would put you up. :-)

Katou

flylo
11-09-2012, 12:53 AM
Been there on 2 wheels & once to get a plane & really enjoyed it!

Charles P
11-09-2012, 11:30 AM
And whatever you do, make sure that you have a trolley jack and wooden blocks that will lift the trailer to change a blow out. Oh yes, and a wheel brace that fits the trailer is handy.
Don't ask me how I know these useful tips. It would only be embarassing

Charles

flylo
11-09-2012, 11:41 AM
If it's a tandem trailer carry a chunk of 6x6 beveled on one end & just drive the good tire up on it to change a flat, beats fiddling with a jack & the 6x6 can be used as chocks also.

flylo
11-09-2012, 12:48 PM
One more thought, if you get a truck & trailer it's money well spent to get a hitch head with stabilizer bars such as this. It makes a world of difference & can be had for $20-$50 at sales. http://www.ebay.com/itm/REESE-Towing-System-5000-lb-Trailer-Hitch-Sway-control-Bar-1000-lb-Stabilizers-/150940609785?pt=Motors_RV_Trailer_Camper_Parts_Acc essories&hash=item2324c2ecf9&vxp=mtr

dave5605
11-09-2012, 05:49 PM
Dave 5605, could you tell me about an example of this:

"Braking is typically where the problem occurs. The rear axle of the tow vehicle unloads and all heck breaks loose."

Maybe an example of a time when a friend, or job you were helping on went south? It would help me out quite a bit.

Katou

Since you asked... I've been hauling a few loads a year for the last 40 or so years. Where I really got my indoctrination was hauling race cars on trailers about 6 times a year back in the late 70's. Both short and long haul. Anywhere from 100 to 1000 miles one way.

With no rear axle weight other than the truck itself ( no trailer either)the truck will naturally nose dive when you step firmly on the brakes. That's because there is more weight on the front axle under normal travel when the truck is empty.

Not much but it will go down in front and up in back. That transfers weight to the front axle and the stopping experience can start to get get exciting. No big deal normally. If you drive a pickup you know these things by experience real quick if you stop stupid fast.

Now add a trailer that has little tongue weight and no brakes and the trailer is going to start pushing on the tongue and trying to help lift the back of the truck up even more. The problem grows exponentially real fast.

Hence the need for trailer brakes. Either a electric box on the brake pedal arm that energizes the trailer brakes or a surge brake system that every time the trailer exerts forward force on the truck it starts to energize the trailer brakes.

In the 2nd case, driving down the road with too little tongue weight the truck and trailer are normally going to go up/down based on road surface, condition of truck shock/springs,nets., etc. now you lose driving control as the trucks rear axle starts to unload. Swaying begins.

We have all seen cars/pickup trucks with trailers doing this. Typically because not enough tongue weight. Get away from them fast. Sometimes because of crosswinds acting on the trailer (not so much on the truck unless its a cube van of some kind. Braking will not stop this kind of sway. It will make it worse.

Picture 10 miles of flat interstate with very slight downhill areas and this starts to happen. The only thing that will fix it is pray like heck you hit a uphill area. Doesn't have to be much. A few degrees is enough. Then you let the trailer just drag you down so you can stop. Your other option is to drive even faster until you hit an upgrade. It gets real interesting if you have 20 miles of slight downgrade. Can you say going 90 mph to maintain trailer control and hope like heck no one gets in front of you?

So you may be thinking how did this dummy, with experience, get in this predicament? Well the one big pucker time was when we forgot we didn't have 1000# of spare motor sitting in the front of the trailer on a trip. No problem under 35 or so mph. Get going 75 on the interstate and whoa boy. Excitement time. Or another time we loaded the wrecked race car backwards on the trailer. Too little tongue weight again. Front of race car, heavy with motor, hanging near back of trailer rather than up front where it normally was.

Now last point, tires. Mushy tires get hot when they are loaded to capacity. I have real 8 ply tires on my 3/4 ton pickup. They are rated for probably 3000+# each when pumped up to 80 psi. To get good tire wear when running empty (90% of the time) I run them at 45psi. Everything is good. However if fully loaded down they would get hot and the sidewall is mush. Hence the need to pump them to their max (based on sidewall stamped specs).

Just be safe out there.
Whew!

HSS
11-09-2012, 11:25 PM
Katou, when you move the mil, loosen the nuts on the right side of the ram when looking from the front of the machine and rotate the center nut on the same side to move the ram all the way to the rear and then tighten the nuts back up, then lower the knee all the way down. The lifting eye on top of the machine is strong enough to lift the machine, assuming the eyebolt is still in yours. Good luck and be careful. Also you might want to drain the gearoil out of the gearbox. If it isn't lifted perfectly level it will spill oil. There is a drain plug in the bottom of the GB and is allen head.
Patrick

HSS
11-09-2012, 11:46 PM
if you decide to remove the motor, and it has the original 2 speed motor, mark the wires when you disconnect them from the motor. I don't have a wiring diagram for that motor. You can either remove the motor and leave the motor bracket or you can remove both the motor and bracket. If you decide to remove the bracket with the motor you will need to remove the belt tensioning crank, shaft, and the eyebolt. The crank is held into the shaft with a taper pin so be sure to drive it in the correct direction.

Patrick

katou
11-10-2012, 07:06 AM
Thank you Patrick, that's very thoughtful. I was going to move the knee down, but I had not considered moving the ram back.

I will remove the motor, but not the bracket (I'll try to avoid it). Thanks for the heads-up on the motor wires.

How hard would it be to remove the table? You ever do that? I'm thinking moving it into it's new home might be easier without the table attached.

Katou

HSS
11-10-2012, 08:31 AM
The table removal is doable but if you have a way to lift the machine now, with the table on, I wouldn't remove it. I didn't take anything off of mine when I moved it, except the vice. The motor will lift out of the bracket with out removing the pulley (or sheave if you prefer). Is the lifting eye still in the top of the ram? Also, if the oiler is still in the top of the head on the left side of the front sheave cover, remove it for the move. I put a new one on mine cause the old one leaked oil. Wish I could come up and help you move it. Be Careful!

Patrick

katou
11-10-2012, 06:38 PM
Wish I could come up and help you move it.

Nobody wishes that more than me!! I will heed your advice re: the oiler, and the removal of the table.

I don't want to take the table off, mostly because I don't have a way to lift it at this fella's shop.

I may be forced to on this end though, I may have to choose between removing part of the front wall of my shop, or the table, to get it in there.

All in all, I think I might prefer to modify the standard stud wall rather than the mill, which is an unknown quantity, requiring equipment I don't have.

I'm going tonight to see/inspect it, so I will have pictures in the next day or so. Speaking of which, damn, I forgot my dial indicator at school.

I'll just make do with a few blocks of wood and a bolt and listen to the scraping noises.

Sigh.

Off we go!

Katou

flylo
11-16-2012, 06:08 PM
Katou, give us an update. Did you move it or what? Silence is really not Golden. And don't forget the pics!