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RussZHC
11-11-2012, 08:56 PM
60 Minutes had a piece tonight (Nov 11/12) focused on skilled jobs going unfilled. Wish it would have been longer and more in-depth.

Previous generation companies would hire and train. Now companies will hire but don't want to train, with expectations someone who is hired will be ready to go. Their logic, they interviewed both company owners as well as current employees (many of whom had been retrained) and potential future employees, was they are a company, not a school. Estimating it would take between 2 and 4 years to develop that skilled employee.

One recent (I assume since the piece was first taped) retrained employee was hired based on where they were at in terms of being able to do specific work (manufacturing and skilled) and that the employer hires them based on having reduced the amount of training needed by the company. The quote was for $12 an hour plus benefits. Now I am not sure of how it is in the U.S. but are benefits another say 50% in terms of value of the wage? Are benefits a 100% more in terms of value? Asking because I just don't understand how someone can survive on $12 per hour.

An interesting bit was how a company out of state, a ways out IIRC, was to purchase a particular type of used machine for manufacturing/machining and they found locally that there was not enough skilled labor. Their solution: buy the entire company who currently owned the machines, keep that factory open where it was (Conn.?) so they can make their parts and not have to wonder about finding a new labor force.

sasquatch
11-11-2012, 09:09 PM
Russ, i just heard an interview about a new Chromite mine opening up in N. Ont,, but NOT untill 2016.

They are going to hire 450 guys,,,, BUT,,, as of this date they have 1700 applications already in!!

1700!!! That to me is amazing, being that this mine will not be opening untill 2016!!

Mining in N. Ontario is at a BIG boom time!!

My son is a mechanic at a gold mine that is still not open yet, (it opens in January,) and there are 1600 guys on site,, 1200 building the operation, and another 400 working for private contractors who have built their own shops up there on site.

Wow,, $12.00 per hour, that is pathetic!!
Mines up there are paying starting wages for trades of 35-45 bucks per hour,, they work 12 hour days, go 14 days straight , then come out for 7 days.
A great place to go for young guys !!

Grind Hard
11-11-2012, 09:21 PM
People are not going to go to school run up thousands in loan-debt, graduate and earn $10.50 an hour. That's $10.50 an hour plus probationary time and all that jazz before the employer starts sucking money out for the new High Deductible cut-throat off-brand insurance and other benefits. Then after probation they decide if they want to keep you on permanently or not.

No one does around here, it's the same 20 companies looking for "entry level" CNC every four weeks. The pattern is very obvious. One group graduates from the local programs, the ads go up "JOBS JOBS JOBS ENTRY LEVEL CNC".

Companies do not believe in training or investing 2-4 years in an employee because very simply... they do not intent to retain those employees and let them earn higher wages as they gain experience.

My brother Liger Zero went through this for years before he saw the light.

The shop I "retired" from started doing that and it showed in the quality of what we made.

Between that and other issues I am glad I left and started my own shop. I can train people the right way and retain the ones who want to make a career.

Not going to be a slave to "corporate think" ever again.

oldtiffie
11-11-2012, 09:33 PM
Here is the "60 Minutes" item/article referred to:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57547342/three-million-open-jobs-in-u.s-but-whos-qualified/?tag=strip

danlb
11-11-2012, 09:47 PM
The same thing happens in the tech industry. Working for places like eBay, they would rather hire imported workers with an unverified diploma from a foreign university and no experience instead of a local with work experience.

The sad part is that both will need training. I would say that 3/4 of the imported workers I worked with were unable to to the job when hired. Most of them had resumes so padded that they could be used for seat cushions.

When I entered the corporate world in the early 1970s, the plan was to hire people with aptitude and attitude and train them to do the job. The benefits were tailored to keep people at the company. They trained and promoted from within. 40 years of work guaranteed a nice retirement for life.

Modern companies want to hire people for the current project and don't expect them to stay around. The emphasis is on short term rewards. The training program is to hire talent from their competitors.

I'd love to see a shift back to the old ways. My sons would sure benefit from it.

Dan

oldtiffie
11-11-2012, 10:08 PM
That's a problem for "manufacturing" I guess, but any time I need skilled help (car, plumbing, electrical, building, concreting, engineering etc. etc.) I expect them to be fully trained and equipted ready to go when they arrive. Trainees/apprentices are OK as the Contractor (hired on a job or hourly basis) has his trainees factored into his quote/bid for the job.

Many trainees are "pre-trained" here and ready to start at a basic level with basic skills which they are expected to improve on as they work their way through their traineeship/s.

goose
11-11-2012, 10:33 PM
Let's see.............. 2 years of vocational training after high school, with accompanying tuition debt and time consumed for $12 an hour job versus 2 weeks at Starbucks barista training course, company paid, for about the same amount of wages. Hmmm................



But anyways, many of the vocational schools of yesteryear were originally founded as company run/paid classrooms way back in the halcyon days, when men were men and steel was steel.

Regnar
11-12-2012, 12:29 AM
Where to start.......... Lets just say we did this to ourselves by pumping the ideal that everyone must go to college. We took away any type of vocational learning out of public schools are replace it with Trig and expect everyone to become engineers, architects and rocket scientist. Just they have no clue what a wrench is, never swung a hammer or how to bend metal.

I work in the Aviation Industry and for some of these kids coming out of school its the first time they have ever turned a wrench in their lifes. All of them know how to jailbreak thier Iphones, get free movies and beat Halo 4 in a few minutes but not a single one changes the oil in thier own vehicles.

But on a side note my Brother-inlaw (computer geek) needed a plumber to come out and replace a toilet in his house. Plumber was able to charge $200 in labor plus parts. Got him for $325 after everything was said and done. Spent 2 hours there. Pretty soon a Plumber will make more than a doctor.

macona
11-12-2012, 12:58 AM
I have been seeing this while looking for work. Employers want 2 and 4 year degrees for nothing and have such a long list of specific requirements that I dont think they can ever be filled. And I have seen these same positions open for almost a year. Heck, from what I understand, Intel pretty much wants a masters just to get in the door.

Juergenwt
11-12-2012, 01:50 AM
The big question is: "Where will the trainer's come from? All this short vision planing by the bean counters will get you exactly what you are asking for: quick savings for a short time. After that ... I don't give a da...
The government needs to step up because the country's survival is at stake - and never mind the idiots who constantly scream about "getting government out of my business". Greed rules and training costs money. There are no boats coming from other countries where training programs are in place. Only boats from third world countries with people who are hungry to operate the next "Seven-Eleven". Not much training needed.
The good part is that these people are hungry and are willing to send the children to schools - but not to learn a trade. There is no national plan to supply industry with the skilled help that is needed and industry is not willing to provide for it's own survival.
Our country should realize that a highly skilled workforce is absolutely essential for our survival and some things can not be achieved by having a market that is set up to run free without assuming the responsibility of providing for the future.

Guido
11-12-2012, 02:03 AM
Oldest Grandkid--------Senior at UCDavis, 3.8X gpa studying pathology. Learned to drive the London DDeck for student operated bus system, working 20 hours per week to help Dad. Now a route trainer paying $21/hour. UCDavis is the original California A & M.

Not having enough fun so's going for a minor in enviro-geology which will take an extra quarter. Kid is bullet proof-------

--G

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/Guido_album/391965_311810248837592_379432195_n.jpg

tyrone shewlaces
11-12-2012, 02:47 AM
Yea I heard about the 60 Minutes article from my Mom earlier this evening.

Cry me a river...

Wages have been stagnant for over a decade and there's a bit of culture lag going on in the minds of typical employers. I hear it all the time these days - machinists, mechanics, welders positions just can't be filled because for example, "today's tech worker needs to be a scientist" since "today's" welders need to know metallurgy so they know what metals and welding rod are needed to attach specific types of metal together. Oh yea. :p And that is different than yesteryear only because the reporter and employer both seem to have absolutely no idea that yesterday's welder knew that stuff too - that hasn't changed whatsoever. The truth is they are offering $12 to $14 per hour and a skilled worker who knows his craft is already working somewhere else for at least a couple to ten bucks more per hour and won't waste his/her time even applying for that pathetic wage. The employers are out of touch as much as the bureaucrats. $12 or so an hour was almost enough to pay the bills about 15 or 20 years ago. Today that would fill your gas tank so you could get to work and back home I guess. Pathetic.

Since business people are supposed to be the ones who know about supply and demand, why are they so baffled that they can't get applicants for terrible wages? I gurantee they could get better applicants even if they offered $19 or $20 per hour. Maybe not wizards, but it would certainly broaden their choices of potential employees. Just a realistic inflation rate of 3% (and there have been spikes of much higher than that over the last 15 years) equates a $12/hr job of 15 years ago near $20/hr today and $15/hr back then equates to around $23/hr today. $12 to $15 per hour was an entry level wage 15 years ago, so today they should be starting at least $20 minimum. In fact, I was making entry level pay of $12 or $14 about 20 years ago, so that is no doubt conservative.

Tip for job searchers. the term "competitive wage" means the least amount they can possibly pay without looking like Scrooge compared to all the other bean counters in town. Don't even apply for jobs that use that term in their description.

danlb
11-12-2012, 02:58 AM
My favorite;

My boss complained after spending 4 weeks trying to hire a guy to help manage the phone company's web servers and other internet facing systems. It was a fairly esoteric and demanding job at the time. The 3rd person had turned down his job offer.

He said in all seriousness "I just don't understand why no one is willing to accept market rate for this job."

A year later I learned why when I got an easier job paying 50% more outside the phone system.

Dan

Grind Hard
11-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Oldest Grandkid--------Senior at UCDavis, 3.8X gpa studying pathology. Learned to drive the London DDeck for student operated bus system, working 20 hours per week to help Dad. Now a route trainer paying $21/hour. UCDavis is the original California A & M.



Around here similar position would pay $8.50-9.75 an hour and be fulfilled on a rotating basis by a staffing agency, no joke.

Black_Moons
11-12-2012, 06:39 AM
60 Minutes had a piece tonight (Nov 11/12) focused on skilled jobs going unfilled. Wish it would have been longer and more in-depth.

Previous generation companies would hire and train. Now companies will hire but don't want to train, with expectations someone who is hired will be ready to go. Their logic, they interviewed both company owners as well as current employees (many of whom had been retrained) and potential future employees, was they are a company, not a school. Estimating it would take between 2 and 4 years to develop that skilled employee.

One recent (I assume since the piece was first taped) retrained employee was hired based on where they were at in terms of being able to do specific work (manufacturing and skilled) and that the employer hires them based on having reduced the amount of training needed by the company. The quote was for $12 an hour plus benefits. Now I am not sure of how it is in the U.S. but are benefits another say 50% in terms of value of the wage? Are benefits a 100% more in terms of value? Asking because I just don't understand how someone can survive on $12 per hour.

An interesting bit was how a company out of state, a ways out IIRC, was to purchase a particular type of used machine for manufacturing/machining and they found locally that there was not enough skilled labor. Their solution: buy the entire company who currently owned the machines, keep that factory open where it was (Conn.?) so they can make their parts and not have to wonder about finding a new labor force.

Simple: Its either they survive on $12 an hour or they survive on $7/hr at a min wage job or surive on $0/hr with no job. thats there choice.
Benifits in the USA are only thousands of dollars per month when they include *good* health insurance. Not likey to happen at a $12/hr job.

Nobody wants to train anyone. You should see programming jobs. "Must have at least 5 years experiance in each of: 19 diffrent languages, platforms and applications. Must have at least 10 years experiance writing enterprise level applications in an API/language that was released 4 years ago. Must be willing to relocate to nowhere and be willing to compete with indian outsource teams for wages"


No idea how anyone is supposed to get experiance when nobody wants anyone with less then 5 years 'on the job' and still pay them like they are fresh outta school.

Thousands of dollars Grind Hard? More like tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, Kids todays won't be able to make enough money to pay off the intrest on there student loans, let alone ever be able to buy a house.

Its a sad, sad prospect. Very easy to become a slave for life to debt by picking the wrong school/subject.

JohnAlex141r
11-12-2012, 07:18 AM
Hey Regnar;


... Spent 2 hours there. Pretty soon a Plumber will make more than a doctor.

My father was a doctor up here in Canada (Ontario) and, hour for hour, I took home more than he did when working for my first high-tech job. His 80+ hours/week brought in lots of money, but his office expenses (paying staff, supplies, building) took away lots of it.

Not sure what it is like in the USA, but we have a hard time here getting doctors to set up offices and become "family doctors" simply because the money is not there, unless you live the job.

Wages sure are interesting!

Another JohnS.

MrFluffy
11-12-2012, 08:02 AM
Tip for job searchers. the term "competitive wage" means the least amount they can possibly pay without looking like Scrooge compared to all the other bean counters in town. Don't even apply for jobs that use that term in their description.

In europe, competitive rate means they are prepared to offer more than what they consider the others would pay for the same people. i.e. in competition for you as a resource. I've found the rates offered during process reflect this. Usually they're agencies recruiting for a client who's said "find me better candidates this time round" so generally the company isn't completely useless.

To the original subject, unable to fill a job always means one thing, they're not paying enough. Every year the h1b visa people bleat to the us gov that there's a shortfall of tech workers in a certain sector and to allow a increase in number granted. Ditto the same in the uk. Meanwhile there's a large glut of that resource unemployed in both markets. The shortfall is they offer offshore level rates, none of the people in country want to accept as they have in country costs, taxes, housing etc. The companies then lobby congress with the ammunition that 500 (cut rate) jobs went unfilled.
We're just sacks of meat, the bottom line for them is keeping the max profit. What's been lost is a culture of building businesses in a sustainable long term manner rather than the quick kill. That would rely on actual experienced people rather than fresh new mba's, which once again, cost more. Bing, full circle.

alanganes
11-12-2012, 08:18 AM
Cry me a river... and a skilled worker who knows his craft is already working somewhere else for at least a couple to ten bucks more per hour and won't waste his/her time even applying for that pathetic wage.



Second that. I'm always suspicious of these sorts of "investigative" reports that come up with stuff like this. Things are never that simple. No matter how hard you try, that whole supply & demand thing finds a way to work. Companies that offer decent wages and benefits will find and keep whatever talent they want if they manage well. Those that offer crummy pay, bennies, and work environment will not. At times the scales will tip one way or the other in any given area, but over the longer term, ya gets whats ya pays for. There are always places that pay well and treat their workers well, but at some times they are harder to find than others and they can afford to be choosey about who they hire and keep.

justanengineer
11-12-2012, 08:30 AM
I'd be curious to hear more about the realistic duties of a $12/hr "skilled" employee. Around here the button pusher/forklift operator/spoon and fork operator starts at $15 with very good benefits and absolutely zero skill required. Maybe at $12/hr I could find a "machinist" to push the start button on a turning center, a "weldor" to push the start button on a robot, or other "skilled tradesman" to push a different kind of button....but I'd probably have to wait a few months then show them which button....

OTOH, I do think its sad that we have lost out apprenticeship programs in this country, but with the number of community colleges today giving "degrees" in this field its little wonder that companies got rid of them, tho they shot themself in the foot by doing so as now they have little means of developing any real talent. I see it almost daily when I send out RFQs....one shop in ten has the talent to do real complex surfacing and make a truly challenging part. Heaven help us if this was 1930 and we still had some truly complex mechanisms in use....

rws
11-12-2012, 08:43 AM
[QUOTE=Regnar;808112]Where to start.......... Lets just say we did this to ourselves by pumping the ideal that everyone must go to college. We took away any type of vocational learning out of public schools are replace it with Trig and expect everyone to become engineers, architects and rocket scientist. Just they have no clue what a wrench is, never swung a hammer or how to bend metal.

Here it is. Vocational schools are non-existent anymore. How are we going to have skilled labor without teaching it? The hypocrisy of the Govt is amazing. On one hand they spout off about all the jobs to be made, yet not one thing is done in the Govt programed school system to train for such jobs. It is a 100% BS!

Abner
11-12-2012, 09:06 AM
The root of the problem started long ago with off shoring that did not account for wage/hour/labor laws or environmental rules, marketed by politicians as free trade. The 'service economy' the 'information economy' might as well be the coffee cup economy. "Most" common Joe's wanted a deal on the latest HF tool, huffy bicycle, or import microwave. First company to get cheaper manufacturing had the advantage, the other had to follow suit or more than likely die. We have become shallow and greedy, the more I see the less I like.

I hear the Ra,Ra buy American, but how do you know(if fact you don't) if the John Deere tractor is American made; draw bar arms from Italy, motor from Japan, etc, etc.

The easy answer, which is what everyone wants does not exist. Collectively we cooked or goose and then mortgaged the oven. The answer is we have a political (leadership) problem. Until we remove special interests funding of campaigns we are going to be subject to the financial powers that be. Right now I think the bankers are the source of the toughest of our problems. The current politicians are prostitutes and the funders of campaigns like it that way, and we vote for them like a bunch of brain dead cattle.

China has one of Jimmy Carters solar panels on display in a museum and we are getting mocked for our foolishness. Think about that, a white house solar panel in a Chinese museum. We need-to-get-bitch-slapped about energy. What we really need in this country is a mandatory 10 year course in critical thinking.

The seemingly unadmitable problem is that we Americans have had a higher standard of living than the rest of the world. The "3rd world" saw this and wanted the same for them selves- how can you possibly blame them with out looking like a f-ing hypocrite? Whining about it makes you look selfish, lazy, and greedy. My son hires foreign computer programers. They get 1/3 of an American programmer and in their country that makes them rich - they can buy a second house and actually own a car.

saltmine
11-12-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't watch 60 minutes anymore. I think the final straw was when they were staging accidents with hermetically sealed fuel tanks on Chevy trucks, and for better "journalistic effect" setting off strategically placed blasting caps by radio control. This episode was all about the NHTSA's demand for GM to recall a large number of Chevrolet and GMC trucks that were manufactured with their fuel tanks mounted on the outside of the frame rails. Truth be known, not very many of these trucks ever burst into flames or had a fuel tank rupture in a side-on collision. Needless to say, 60 minutes got caught, red handed. And was ordered to reimburse GM and the NHTSA for the chaos they caused. They also had to appologize to the network for the attempted scam...Trust is like a mirror...once it's broken the image is never the same.

Optics Curmudgeon
11-12-2012, 10:21 AM
Not to pick nits or stick up for 60 Minutes, but you stopped watching the wrong show. The Chevrolet pickup story that faked the footage was on Dateline NBC, a different show on a different network.

Willy
11-12-2012, 10:44 AM
Truth be known, not very many of these trucks ever burst into flames or had a fuel tank rupture in a side-on collision.

Sorry but my BS meter just went to tilt!
From:
http://www.autosafety.org/history-gm-side-saddle-gas-tank-defect

"Data updated through 2009 from NHTSA's Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), show that over 2,000 people have been killed in fire crashes in the U.S. in 1973-87 GM C/K pickups and cab-chassis trucks with the defective outside-the-frame-rail sidesaddle fuel tank design."

"The total amount in settlements paid out by GM in C/K pickup fire crashes is over $500 million."

Grind Hard
11-12-2012, 11:40 AM
Either way, these news-mag shows tend to sensationalize things to the hilt.

Few years back one of them did a piece on a rubber-molder... an automotive supplier hard hit by the troubles with impending bankrupts and all that.

#) The company used to make rubber widgets across all markets.
#) They decided to ultra-specialize in just automotive widgets.
#) All of their equipment was "old" and "obsolete" but it was great for making the same auto-widgets day in day out.
#) They said on camera that they had no sales force, that 100% of their work came from the auto companies via force of habit. "We've always ordered from them.."
#) Company was suddenly unable to make payroll because of "the troubles" with the auto-makers.
#) Many of the workers facing layoff were unwilling to leave not because of an inability to find work, but because of Loss of Seniority.
#) Two memorable quotes involved workers lamenting the fact that they would basically have to touch ground and toil with the rest of humanity because of the loss of seniority.
#) The rest of the segment was about how the Government bailout should extend to individual suppliers hit hard by "the troubles."

These segments crack me up. Here we have a dying company that admits that they were in this position because they never planed for the end of the good times. The one we saw last night... Basically a manager lamenting the fact he can't get minimum wage workers to run progressive forming machines. I'll bet you hundreds, thousands of managers watched that segment last night and said "$12 for entry level is too high, I can hire temps for $8.50."

In the end these segments are great comic relief. End of it all, I'll go back out to my shop and crank out a couple of widgets and know I'm doing my part to keep the country above water.

oldtiffie
11-12-2012, 05:48 PM
Perhaps there are people really desperate enough to take those "$12/hour" jobs (which at $12/hour may be on a "take it or leave it" basis)- if they can pass the "skill/calability/qualification test/s" (if they actually exist in some cases).

If that factory needed to get going and keep going and if the skill level to operate the machine (machines?) was not too high it it possible that they have determined that there are enough "machinists" "out there" to keep the factory going at $12/hour (or less?).

Once supply of labour meets the demand for it at say $12/hour there is no need to increase it - especially in high unemployment ("disadvantaged"??) areas.

chorne27983
11-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Here is my dilemma with what I have read so far. Everyone feels that they should start at the top of the pay scale nowadays. The problem is no one wants to invest the time to learn the trades but want to make mechanic/journeyman pay. The cold reality of it is that with nothing other than classroom experience you are going to start at the bottom as you should. I've busted my ass and went through an apprenticeship and learn all I can about all aspects of the trades. I have sacrificed time with family and friends to be an indispensable asset to my employer. If you all think that things are ****ed up for the young people(I'm. 34 btw) then do something about it other than pat them on the butt and tell them good job for just being adequate. All of us here started somewhere close to the bottom in our field. I've made it on $11/hr and I still make it at $20/hr. Standard of living hasn't changed a bit. Think of all the unnecessary things that we pay for like cell phones, cable, internet, soda, etc. If you can't make it, it is your own damn fault.

Grind Hard
11-12-2012, 07:15 PM
I had no problem starting out at the bottom.

When I left I made close to $30 an hour.

To compare, offers I've had since I left range from $9.50 to $14 an hour for the same position doing the same tasks.

That's setup and program a turret-punch. The $14 job wanted me to participate in cost-reduction analysis and job quoting on top of programming for FOUR machines and tooling upkeep. That shop told me $14 take it or leave it, I told them $18 minimum they showed me the door. Funny part is they are STILL looking for someone. :)

I am NOT entry-level. My skills are NOT common, especially when it comes to tooling upkeep and mechanical setup of some of the more exotic punches. It basically boils down to a business-person making cost-driven decisions based on cost-reduction not actual reality.

chorne27983
11-12-2012, 07:42 PM
I had no problem starting out at the bottom.

When I left I made close to $30 an hour.

To compare, offers I've had since I left range from $9.50 to $14 an hour for the same position doing the same tasks.

That's setup and program a turret-punch. The $14 job wanted me to participate in cost-reduction analysis and job quoting on top of programming for FOUR machines and tooling upkeep. That shop told me $14 take it or leave it, I told them $18 minimum they showed me the door. Funny part is they are STILL looking for someone. :)

I am NOT entry-level. My skills are NOT common, especially when it comes to tooling upkeep and mechanical setup of some of the more exotic punches. It basically boils down to a business-person making cost-driven decisions based on cost-reduction not actual reality.

I know what you mean about people low balling when trying to find work. Unfortunately that is the way things are now due to so many people talking a good game in the interview and then not knowing the basics when they start work. Once they KNOW what you can do then usually the money will follow.

oldtiffie
11-12-2012, 07:45 PM
Its not always a matter of what you think your skills and levels are but what others think they are and what they are worth to them in the current labour (meat?) market that counts more often then not.

Any sizeable town with a single substantial employer could tell you that.

Just as a matter of interest, were those $12/hour jobs, permanent, temporary, hourly-rate or "contract"? etc. and what "notice"(for "firing") were they on? Day-work, shift-work, "at call"?

2ManyHobbies
11-12-2012, 08:02 PM
I work in IT and see it all the time. Employers oscillate between wanting a small group of sharp people with vast abilities to do it all and wanting bunches of small teams focused on a single widget. The transition one or another can be an unpalatable sell. Virtually speaking, one is engineering and one is line work.

Good technical training for what I do can cost $5k/wk plus any travel expenses. The courses require specific knowledge and proficiencies, uninterrupted time, and a student that is dedicated to learning the material. Employers that understand this pick the right folks to spend $20k/yr and 4 work weeks on. In an average situation, the employer saves twice as many weeks and dollars with the results than what they invested. In a good one with skilled employees, the payoff can be several times better. Not all employers manage training (or compensation) wisely though and wind up losing valuable time, money, and employees.

On the lesser skilled side of the coin, some employers go for the 100% documented and managed route. They may have created their own courses or "truck in" training that is only specific to the job function and not part of a broader skill set. It means that the minimum requirement for an employee is ability to use a computer and communicate in a given language. When there are no problems, this is a much cheaper world to run because it requires a minimum of effort (and wages) to run. An employee can be truly replaced in under a month if not a few weeks. When things go badly though, the workers are often not equipped to deal with problems not in the book and twice as many people can be required to keep the world from imploding making the "easy" model the more expensive one.

How does all of the above translate into a skilled labor shortage? The heavily skilled job/employee can range from $35-$125/hr where the unskilled can range from $8-$65/hr. The difference is the same as somebody that loads stock in the CNC machine and somebody that designs a part and programs it. Both have something akin to CNC on a resume, but one won't work as a parts loader for $12/hr and the other lacks the skill set to design and code parts. 100 submitted resumes later neither position has a "skilled" applicant and lesser skilled headhunters frequently compound the problem trying to make a quota.

Skilled jobs are out there and skilled individuals are out there, but the broad overlap in definitions and unclear resumes and vague job postings the job market has become like speed dating at a dive bar for both employers and employees.

chorne27983
11-12-2012, 08:12 PM
I started in the company I am at now at $14/hr as a machinist to get my foot in the door. Within 2 months I was given a raise to $17. By the end of the 3rd month I was promoted to supervisor and given another raise to $20. By no means is this an ungodly amount of money but it is more than about 70% of the surrounding area makes. It also doesn't hurt(at the pump it does) that I live in a rural area where property values haven't been inflated by greedy tax assessments by the county yet either. I have however been strongly considering starting my own shop though because if the company charges $95/hr with a minimum of 2 hours labor then why should I settle for $20 when I am doing the work. The wife and I have already been in contact with the SBA and are considering taking out a loan to get started. I have an Uncle that is a planner/engineer for a government contractor and retired from the shipyard as a blacksmith/fabrication supervisor that could handle the sheetmetal work. The way things are going here I have to do something to secure a future for my children and my nephew.

oldtiffie
11-12-2012, 08:29 PM
How can you be confident of "permanency" now-a-days?

You are only secure until your next "pink slip" (notice) and "down-turn" or failure or sale or "rationalisation" (or any of the previous) of the enterprise you are working in/for?

Not all "out-sourcing" is to India or China either as your employer may move to a different town or State - in the USA - that you can afford to "move" to or travel to each day - assuming there is a job for you at the next employer location.

And what assured "benefits" are ther in those $12/hour and similar jobs? Do you get them when you leave -assuming your employer is solvent and not bankrupted - and if bankrupted - what then?

danlb
11-12-2012, 08:39 PM
Both have something akin to CNC on a resume, but one won't work as a parts loader for $12/hr and the other lacks the skill set to design and code parts. 100 submitted resumes later neither position has a "skilled" applicant and lesser skilled headhunters frequently compound the problem trying to make a quota.

Skilled jobs are out there and skilled individuals are out there, but the broad overlap in definitions and unclear resumes and vague job postings the job market has become like speed dating at a dive bar for both employers and employees.

I think 2manyhobbies hit the nail on the head for part of the problem. As I've stated before, the tendency of a hiring manager is to advertise a job opening in a way that it covers what the departing employee used to do instead of what the job position really entails. If the last guy did occasional welding along with running a forklift, the job posting turns into one for a forklift operator who welds.

I think the problem is we need smarter managers. :)

Dan

J. Randall
11-12-2012, 08:42 PM
Sorry but my BS meter just went to tilt!
From:
http://www.autosafety.org/history-gm-side-saddle-gas-tank-defect

"Data updated through 2009 from NHTSA's Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), show that over 2,000 people have been killed in fire crashes in the U.S. in 1973-87 GM C/K pickups and cab-chassis trucks with the defective outside-the-frame-rail sidesaddle fuel tank design."

"The total amount in settlements paid out by GM in C/K pickup fire crashes is over $500 million."

I would be interested to know how many other people were killed in fiery crashes in other makes and models that were not deemed defective in the same time period. You do realize that is not very many over a 15 yr. time span, considering the hundreds of thousands of those vehicles that were sold.
James

edit: Actually the 15 yrs. was just the span they were manufactured, I assume the time frame you are referring to is the 36 yr. one.

chorne27983
11-12-2012, 08:45 PM
How can you be confident of "permanency" now-a-days?

You are only secure until your next "pink slip" (notice) and "down-turn" or failure or sale or "rationalisation" (or any of the previous) of the enterprise you are working in/for?

Not all "out-sourcing" is to India or China either as your employer may move to a different town or State - in the USA - that you can afford to "move" to or travel to each day - assuming there is a job for you at the next employer location.

And what assured "benefits" are ther in those $12/hour and similar jobs? Do you get them when you leave -assuming your employer is solvent and not bankrupted - and if bankrupted - what then?
The past is the past, tomorrow isn't guaranteed, but today is a gift. Work is work and will always be work. Over here things aren't as bad as people make them out to be as far as the job market goes. Check out the link for Ameriforce. Plenty of jobs starting at low to mid 20s plus per diem. Work 3 weeks then home for a week. Good jobs are here but you have to keep your eyes peeled and/or make sacrifices. Nothing in this life is guaranteed and the job market is no different. If you want stability then get a government job but be prepared for all the regulations good and bad that come with it.

tyrone shewlaces
11-12-2012, 09:03 PM
Here is my dilemma with what I have read so far. Everyone feels that they should start at the top of the pay scale nowadays. ...I still make it at $20/hr. Standard of living hasn't changed a bit.

chorne, you're in a bit of lag too. If you're a journeyman, you should be making at least $30/hr. If that seems like a lot, then you're in the middle of the time lag and you're mind is stuck in the past about 15 years. $20/hr just doesn't purchase what it used to. $20/hr is decent entry-level apprenticeship wage or at least not much higher than it. If you were me, you'd look around a bit and see if you can do better. Then you're standard of living will finally raise up a bit.

chorne27983
11-12-2012, 09:29 PM
chorne, you're in a bit of lag too. If you're a journeyman, you should be making at least $30/hr. If that seems like a lot, then you're in the middle of the time lag and you're mind is stuck in the past about 15 years. $20/hr just doesn't purchase what it used to. $20/hr is decent entry-level apprenticeship wage or at least not much higher than it. If you were me, you'd look around a bit and see if you can do better. Then you're standard of living will finally raise up a bit.

Land is cheap where I live and $20 an hour is actually very competitive pay in my area for a machinist. My standard of living is just fine to be honest. I own a house in Fayetteville and just bought another on 4.5 acres of land in Gates County to build a house on and my shop. My wife drives a 2007 mazda 6 and I drive a 2009 Frontier. I don't live in an area where an apartment that is as big as a walk in closet costs $2500 a month. Hell, you can find 3 bedroom homes for rent here for 350-400 a month. It sounds like to me that y'all live in areas that have a high cost of living so the pay scale is higher. If I lived in an area like that then I would expect to be paid more as well.

Grind Hard
11-12-2012, 09:48 PM
To me the REAL problem is there are PLENTY of out of work machinists and skilled tradesmen. These folks can fill the positions that are open, however...! They are not going to take a 20+ dollar paycut to do so.

As was stated above the problem is unreasonable and unsustainable employer demands.

justanengineer
11-12-2012, 10:18 PM
Here is my dilemma with what I have read so far. Everyone feels that they should start at the top of the pay scale nowadays. The problem is no one wants to invest the time to learn the trades but want to make mechanic/journeyman pay. The cold reality of it is that with nothing other than classroom experience you are going to start at the bottom as you should. I've busted my ass and went through an apprenticeship and learn all I can about all aspects of the trades. I have sacrificed time with family and friends to be an indispensable asset to my employer. If you all think that things are ****ed up for the young people(I'm. 34 btw) then do something about it other than pat them on the butt and tell them good job for just being adequate. All of us here started somewhere close to the bottom in our field. I've made it on $11/hr and I still make it at $20/hr. Standard of living hasn't changed a bit. Think of all the unnecessary things that we pay for like cell phones, cable, internet, soda, etc. If you can't make it, it is your own damn fault.

Hallelujah! Someone else under the age of 40 that realizes this! Thank you!

The sad reality is that this is becoming more and more predominant in every profession these days. I see it in the trades I deal with, I see it in the engineering office, I see it in the "business" office....esp the "business" office....every freakin place, and its usually those that are the least useful that whine about money, layoffs, benefits, etc the most while wasting the most of both their own and company funds. The concept of independent personal learning is becoming foreign as is personal accountability and job preparedness, with most believing anything semi job related must be done entirely "on the clock."

oldtiffie
11-13-2012, 12:33 AM
To me the REAL problem is there are PLENTY of out of work machinists and skilled tradesmen. These folks can fill the positions that are open, however...! They are not going to take a 20+ dollar paycut to do so.

As was stated above the problem is unreasonable and unsustainable employer demands.

That's as it seems to be in the USA from here (Australia).

It rather begs the question of why stay in a trade - "Machinist" or any job - if you can't make a go of it and live reasonably - preferably where you are or where you want to be.

If it seems that its not going to improve well enough any time soon and you hang around "hoping" (your judgment) then why do it because if you do you are a substantial part of your own real/preceived or imagined problem.