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View Full Version : Grizzly 0727 Bench Top Horizontal Mill.



lilguy
11-19-2012, 02:46 PM
They have this new bench mill, has a 5/8 in bar. They offer a very limited selection of cutters. Is there a industry std selection that one can use with the horizontal mill? Any one have any experience with this machine.

Thanks all

uncle pete
11-19-2012, 03:11 PM
No experience, but that mill has at least two separate threads about it here that I know of. I'd guess going from MSC, Enco, KBC lists for standard horizontal type tooling, 1" would be the start for any real industry standard. Due to Seig's built in design decisions and outright design flaws, I don't personally expect that machine to be available for all that long. An Atlas MF, MFB, MFC horizontal could quite easily and far out perform that mill. It's just too bad really, starting with a blank piece of paper, Seig had the chance to do a far better job than they did. Someone made some more than poor design choices on that one. And IMHO any horizontal needs a proper built in multi speed power feed. That just doesn't seem optional to me. There's also not a hell of a lot of Z axis daylight available with that mill in vertical mode either.

Pete

EddyCurr
11-19-2012, 07:25 PM
Any one have any experience with this machine.

Grizzly's small bench top horizontal mill, the G0727 was the subject of
discussion here several weeks ago:


Grizzly: Benchtop Horizontal Mill w/ Vertical Head (G0727) (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/56138-Grizzly-Benchtop-Horizontal-Mill-w-Vertical-Head-%28G0727%29) (2012.10.03)

The pitchforks and torches came out once people began to fixate on the
Z-axis clearance when in vertical mode.

darryl
11-19-2012, 08:37 PM
The specs say it has a 1/2 hp main motor- must be a pretty light duty machine. I like the idea of having a horizontal milling capability ( I needed that today) but it would have to be rigid enough to be useful. Otherwise I can see breaking or prematurely dulling cutters, and generally having a frustrating experience with it.

lilguy
11-19-2012, 10:22 PM
There is a distinct lack of horizontal cutters. The shaft is 5/8 inch, not an industry standard. Called Grizzly, they said the LITTLEMACHINESHOP.com carried cutters. I called and they said no, did not know why Grizzly said so.

Arthur.Marks
11-20-2012, 12:08 AM
There is a distinct lack of horizontal cutters. The shaft is 5/8 inch...

You will not find a 'slab mill' with that bore. You can buy milling cutters up to 3/8" width with a 5/8" bore. They will be called "side tooth milling cutters (http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Side-Milling-Cutters/1630.html)" or just "side milling cutters (http://beta.mscdirect.com/browse/Milling/Milling-Cutters/Side-Milling-Cutters?navid=12106238+4289312637)." See also here (http://www.jtsmachine.com/jtswebshop/Pr_CuttingTools/C001.asp). It is worth noting that these cannot be placed adjoining each other to mill a wider dimensioned slot. To do that you need "staggered tooth side milling cutters," and, to my knowledge, those are not offered below a 7/8" bore. You can, though, space two "straight tooth side milling cutters (http://www.travers.com/skulist.asp?r=a&n=%7C%7CCutting%3A+H.S.S.+%26+Solid+Carbide%7C%7CM illing+Cutters%7C%7CSide+Milling+Cutters%7C%7CUser Search1%3Dblock+id+111972+and+class+level3+id+3019 2&AttribSel=Hole+Diameter=%275%2F8%22%27)" on the arbor to mill the outer edges of a feature parallel in one cutting operation.

For gear cutters with a standard 1" bore, you will need another arbor such as an "R8 stub length milling arbor (http://www.shars.com/product_categories/view/4081504/R8_Stub_Milling_Machine_Arbor)." With a horizontal machine like the Grizzly 0727, you can mount such an arbor with improved rigidity by using the machine's outer arbor support. Use a hardened, straight shank center mounted in the arbor support's bore and brought to bear against the center pip of the stub length arbor. Look in the photos under the above hyperlink (http://www.shars.com/products/gallery/888/202-5337B.jpg/); they illustrate the pip nicely which should be present on any brand arbor you choose.

Remember there are plenty of "slotting saws (http://www.travers.com/skulist.asp?r=s&n=%7C%7CCutting%3A+H.S.S.+%26+Solid+Carbide%7C%7CS litting%2C+Slotting%2C+Circular+Saw%7C%7CUserSearc h1%3D5%2F8&q=block+id+193690+and+class+level3+id+30231)" available with a 5/8" bore. These can not only be used to create precisely slotted screw heads but to act as a cut-off saw for thin-walled tubing.

For the traditional "slab milling" operation, it is likely you will be better served by a face mill mounted in the horizontal spindle position or---if the clearance will fit the work---the vertical spindle position. The work, in both instances, is likely to be mounted easier to the table with an angle plate or edge clamps rather than in a traditional vise. It is worth noting I have no first-hand experience with this particular machine.

EddyCurr
11-20-2012, 06:07 PM
The specs say it has a 1/2 hp main motor- must be a pretty light duty machine.Well, it is true this is not a #3 Huron.

Now, to put things in perspective ...


TAIG MicroLathe II: 1021W (1/4 HP 110VAC 1PH Motor)
Sieg X2 Mill: 250W (1/2 HP 110VAC 1PH Motor)
Emco Compact 8 Lathe: 650W (110VAC 1PH motor)
Sherline Lathe and Mill: 60 W (90VDC motor rectified from 110VAC 1PH)

FWIW, none of the benchtop MicroLux machines at MicroMark (http://www.micromark.com/machine-tools.html) are rated for more than 500W.

In short, the Grizzly G0727 has power in keeping with the machine class it belongs to.


(Edit - Taig's info claims 1024W, my estimate for a 1/4HP is more in the order of 190W.)

lilguy
11-20-2012, 07:10 PM
Thank you all, Grizzly was no help.

EddyCurr
11-20-2012, 07:55 PM
A 5/8" arbor is equivalent to 16mm.

An inexhaustive search shows there are several 16mm bore milling cutters and
gear cutters available on UK sites. (Some legwork may reveal the same in NA.)

Tap-Die (http://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-uk/d267_Cylindrical_Mill_Cutters_Metric.html) lists 1.25 (32mm), 2.00" (50mm) & 2.75" (70mm) cylindrical or slab mills
in 1.57" (40mm) dia for a 16mm arbor. They list several other styles of milling and
gear cutters, too.

Axminster lists a small selection of cutters (http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sieg-su1-universal-mill-prod854146/) for the Sieg SU1. What is noteworthy
is that the two gear cutters actually have a 20mm bore with a reducing sleeve
in each of them to mate to a 16mm arbor.

Observe that Axeminster also publishes a power feed for the table.

Mcgyver
11-20-2012, 08:35 PM
In short, the Grizzly G0727 has power in keeping with the machine class it belongs to.



If speed is electronically reduced, its only going to deliver a small fraction of the nominal HP at its slowest speeds....and in my experience that's where you tend to use a horizontal. End mills etc get used in the vertical....slow, larger diameter cutters get used in the horizontal.

not sure why the concern on the Z axis, its the Y that looks problematic ??

has anyone used one of these? I wonder if there is an aspect, sort of like (but not literally), nature not scaling very well. What I mean is that in using the horizontal we do not want to make overlapping cuts so width the cut is usually wide, 1-6" say. You want to make a decent chip; making dust just wears out the cutter and almost regardless of DOC (although there to we like to go full depth in one pass) i just can't see 1/20th of a hp and 5/8 arbor getting the job done.

Haven't used one so don't want to totally trash it....but pending some credible and impartial reviews and I'm a doubting Thomas

lilguy
12-09-2012, 11:27 AM
Just placed the mill in my small shop. Have room for power drive so that's on order. Specs say 200 rpm on low side, I timed 50 rpm with stop watch with enough power to take easy cuts I feel.I realize this is not a real test but I could not stall motor by holding arbor tight with work glove on, which was a pleasant surprise considering the dishing the machine has taken on the net. This machine appears to be what I need to do the small jobs when I need to. I would not begin to recommend it to the power cutters out there, but I think there is a place for a machine like this. A larger arbor and a more powerful drive might make some folks happier along with a spacer to raise the column a bit.

JohnAlex141r
12-09-2012, 11:51 AM
Lilguy;

Good for you. Please keep the reports coming. I think this is an interesting little machine.

Everything has its place; not everything in the workshop needs to be the size of a sherman tank.

Another JohnS.

Rosco-P
12-10-2012, 11:15 AM
I would not begin to recommend it to the power cutters out there, but I think there is a place for a machine like this.

And what place would that be? Those that need a horizontal mill light enough in weight to put on a closet shelf when not needed? A horizontal miller that can make a 0.05" d.o.c. using a cutter that can only be sourced from a specialty supplier like LMS? For half the price a: Burke #3; Sheldon; Vernon; B&S 0Y; Atlas; etc.; etc., would be head and shoulders a better horizontal mill, use more standard sized arbors and readily available milling cutters and be more capable.

If guys would stop buying poorly designed and manufactured crap, maybe importers would stop bringing them in by the container load.

Gunsmithing
12-10-2012, 11:44 AM
I look at the mill and noted it need more power at the low end. I have found any tools from China needs work before it is a good tool. First this this mill is making a good speed reduction as less 1/2HP at 200 rpm. If you look back at mills made in 40's-60's they had 1/2 hp at lower speeds. I do not know why the China MFG does this I do like DC or VDF but try this if you need 1/2 hp at 200 RPM using a DC/VDF motor at 2000 RPM you need 5 hp for the same torque.
Best way to look this is China Make good casting for tools need to finish the work

Dave

Mcgyver
12-10-2012, 12:30 PM
I could not stall motor by holding arbor tight with work glove on, which was a pleasant surprise considering the dishing the machine has taken on the net. .

I'm not sure how that rates as a test; I probably couldn't stall my electric hand drill. Trying to stall an arbor, especially with a glove, seems a very bad idea....if it grabs and does have torque, well arms have been lost that way.

The general criticism is I think deserved, or at least I haven't heard anything to dismiss it. Most look for the performance over as a broad a range of characteristics as possible so the machine can do as much as possible. This one seems to have a lot issues, very small Y axis, small oddball arbor, drastically underpowered esp for a horizontal. A horizontal needs to be able to remove material....if its so light its a matter of multiple passes of light cuts, one would be better off using the versatile vertical mill

However if it works for you, that's all that matters and it was the right decision for you

Arthur.Marks
12-10-2012, 01:46 PM
As a point of comparison, I wonder how many of the detractors above would say the same for the horizontal Sherline or an Aciera F1? Just because a horizontal is small does not mean it doesn't have certain advantages for some work classes. That said, this particular machine can be orientated vertically as well, so you're not contrained to one orientation.

For power, the test I would be curious to try is with a gear cutter. That is an instance where one tries to take full depth at one go if at all possible. It is best not to unequally wear the end portion of the form by advancing with small DOC's. Unequal wear will ruin the specific shape of the tooth ground into the cutter. It is also a good test because the cutters are relatively large in OD so require lower speeds. Besides, who here hears, "horizontal" and doesn't think, "gear cutting" pretty quickly? ;)

The test I propose is to take a full depth cut for a number of different Diametrical Pitches---each successive tooth being larger than the last (lower DP). Eventually a point will be reached where the motor stalls rather than taking the cut. The auto feed the OP has ordered would level the playing field re: feed. Otherwise, it my be possible to take such a tiny DOC as to counteract the tendency for the motor to stall. Where the motor stalls, I think, would give a fairly useful indication of the power capabilities of this mill.

As a final, more philosophical point, there is one aspect which peaks my interest in this particular offering. How many times have you seen direct copies of Western machines come out of China? How many have you seen which cannot be directly identified with a single, originating machine? This is more of an original design than most. Sure, it exhibits design aspects of the Unimat, Aciera F1 (and F3, actually), Precise Micromill, the ubiquitous Asian mini-mill (Emco derived), maybe even to a small extent the Barker horizontals... Still, I see a fairly original combination of construction points from all those examples in this particular machine. This is no justification to purchase, of course, but a thought I feel worth mentioning.

lilguy
12-10-2012, 02:10 PM
I apprececiate all the input, even that from those still living in the past. The Far East is where hobbiest tooling, and much industrial, comes from now. A short story, I'm part of the Harig family by marriage. My father in law was a successful head of a Chicago Tool and Die firm and then a machine tool builder. In the 1950's he was asked to go on a trademission for the US government, to India. He saw so much potential that he personally financed an industrial start up, Harig India, that flourishes today. This from a man who would never drive an imported car. Some folks live in and long for the past, and then there are visionaries.
Many of us come hear for information not readily available elsewhere, having fingers wagged in our faces about bygone eras serves no purpose. I'm sorry the US is loosing it's status as the producer for the world, but that our weakness , not the fault of our competitors. There is always someone gaining on you.

JohnAlex141r
12-10-2012, 02:22 PM
lilguy - well said.

My old iron is a pain in the backside at times - british built, whitworth, BA, and all inch dials, non-standard belts and pulleys.

Certainly there are good "american iron" machines out there, but are getting harder and harder to come by. And, we are not all in this hobby to rebuild older machine tools - rather, we purchase machines to make things, not to make the machines themselves.

Yes, my preference is good machines lightly used, but that is a waiting game, and life is short.

Another JohnS