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john buck
11-23-2012, 11:38 AM
Looks like windows 8 is not selling as expected. Bought it at London Drugs for $ 69.00.

If I like it i'll get another one. Sure came down from $ 300.00.

Stuart Br
11-23-2012, 12:15 PM
Not tried it myself, but work colleagues have told me that it is not good. It tries to be both a desktop and tablet OS. The result is a mess, not doing either very well. MS have decided for you which features are available on which platform and you can't pick and choose.

lakeside53
11-23-2012, 01:02 PM
$300? lol... The Win 8-pro version sells for $55-70 around here and has done from day one.


It works very well, but....if you don't have a touch screen... IMHO... it is a pita. I'll be staying on with 7 on my current hardware.

I did get to play with a Surface running Win 8 last night. Very nice, but I'll wait for the "pro" version due next month that has both the x86 and arm procs.

GadgetBuilder
11-23-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm still running XP so I've been looking at Win8 too. As a cheapskate I've been considering the introductory deal where you can download a Win8 Pro update for $40:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_WOL_DIS_ShopHP_FPP_Light
For a few dollars more they'll send a DVD -- but there are directions on the net to copy the download to a DVD, thus making your own DVD.

Desktop users commonly hate the new interface (because it works best with a touch screen). Since MS doesn't include an easy way to revert Win8 to the regular Win interface, several sources provide what is needed to do this. One that is free and getting good press is:
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

The MS intro offer includes the necessary key so those (like the OP) needing a second copy of Win8 have the option to use their original disk and get the second license for $40.

This seems to provide a version of Win8 that will work like an updated Win7 for an attractive price. Seems too good to be true so I'm wondering if anyone here has tried this and can say how it worked out.

John

caveBob
11-23-2012, 01:52 PM
The MS intro offer includes the necessary key so those (like the OP) needing a second copy of Win8 have the option to use their original disk and get the second license for $40.

This seems to provide a version of Win8 that will work like an updated Win7 for an attractive price. Seems too good to be true so I'm wondering if anyone here has tried this and can say how it worked out.

John

Ya, I'm happy on Win7 atm, maybe when they iron things out we'll see how it works on the wife's comp.

For now... a poignant youtube vid that accurately shows the present kerfuffle:

How Real People Will Use Windows 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v4boTbv9_nU

:)

Mcgyver
11-23-2012, 02:06 PM
I've become content with W7. Last thing i want is more microslop change for the sake of change :(

reviews if W8 seem dismal - mostly around ungainly combining of a tablet and computer interface. I use the two very differently; the ipad has to be a touch screen interface where as on a lap top or desktop it isn't feasible or desired (pending redefining what a desk top is/looks like)


I like one quote I read

"Welcome to Windows 7! The operating system the fixes all the sh1t wrong with Windows 8"

:D

tyrone shewlaces
11-23-2012, 02:58 PM
Unfortunately (I think) Ubuntu is kind of trying to do the same thing regarding making future versions look and act like a tablet to some degree. Although I've taken a short look at it and they may be doing a better job with that.

wierdscience
11-23-2012, 03:17 PM
For now... a poignant youtube vid that accurately shows the present kerfuffle:

How Real People Will Use Windows 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v4boTbv9_nU

:)

ROTFLAMO! As a Vista abuser I'm following the once bitten twice shy rule this go around.I noticed after going from XP to Vista I suddenly started saying F--- a lot more often:D

bhowden
11-23-2012, 04:22 PM
Windows 8 pro upgrade is available directly from Microsoft in electronic form for $49.95 until (I think) Jan 31. I have installed it on my main machine and will buy another copy for my wife's machine at some point. Unfortunately the upgrade must be run from the machine you are upgrading so it is a bit of a fiddle to buy and save for a future upgrade. (it can be done, just a bit of a fiddle) It is definitely a shift from what windows users are used to and takes a couple of days of an open mind and uttering "This is nuts. They can't be serious. Oh, I get it. OK, this is useable but I wonder why they changed it. Hey this is kind of cool." A lot. It seems to run acceptably on a 6 year old laptop that was not a fire breather with XP (1 GB of memory). To really come into it's own it really requires a multi touch screen which means I probably wouldn't recommend anybody happy with what they have bother to upgrade or buying one of the first generation Win 8 machines that are really non touch Windows 7 models rushed out the door for Christmas.

To step back a bit, I think most of the more thoughtful industry comentators are coming to the conclusion that any study of the sales figures left Microsoft with no alternative. The current windows interface is a long slow glide path to obsolesence and that if we want to keep using windows we are going to have to adapt along with it. I find a Mac just fine for email and browsing the web but not suitable for most of what I use my PC for so I figured I better get on board and make the most of it.

Brian

Evan
11-23-2012, 04:25 PM
It is looking as though Win 7 is the last of the decent Microsoft desktop operating systems. That market is diminishing greatly in comparison to the entire operating system market. Microsoft is faced with competition they have never had before and they do not yet know how to deal with it. Firstly, nobody actually buys an operating system for a tablet or "superphone". It is included and people buy the device for reasons other than functionality. As long as functionality meets a reasonable and fairly low standard things like speed, battery life, appearance and price are much more important.

The world of computing is changing around Microsoft and so must Microsoft in order to survive. Times change.

Win 7 will do what I want for the rest of my life and that is good enough for me.

Mcgyver
11-23-2012, 04:37 PM
Win 7 will do what I want for the rest of my life and that is good enough for me.

I'd agree with that....the pisser is when down the road you can't get a driver or hardware or software that'll work with it. The big step up with it was memory beyond 8 gigs....what if tomorrows software needs _____and only widows 8,9,10,11 supports it?

this is pretty funny - turn on subtitles by hitting CC at the bottom right of the screen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=69RllXjCL6o&NR=1

Evan
11-23-2012, 04:46 PM
Win 7 pro and up supports 192 gigs of physical ram. That will be enough. Virtual ram is one terabyte. With a SSD that is more than enough.

Mcgyver
11-23-2012, 04:53 PM
Win 7 pro and up supports 192 gigs of physical ram. That will be enough. Virtual ram is one terabyte. With a SSD that is more than enough.

it was simply a "for instance", ram is not the point. Could Ram, drivers, hardware, software or something else. The industry works on a lack of backward compatibility and limited support horizons. The industry works against the hope of "this will do me forever"

danlb
11-23-2012, 04:54 PM
Doesn't it look like the last three Windows OS releases were done solely for purposes of forced obsolescence?

If XP is working fine for you, there is no reason to update to Win 7. If Win 7 works for you, there is no real reason to go to 8. In my opinion, XP was the first version of windows that was as usable as my UNIX workstation, in that it did not crash randomly and frequently.

The only reason that I have upgraded any of my older Windows installations is that Microsoft left them with security holes that they will no longer patch.

I'm finding that using Linux and Android works for 100% of my daily experience. I boot up my windows systems only to pull the latest updates in case I need to do remote desktop support for my elderly parents. It really helps to walk them through a procedure when I have the same OS installed on my end. :) They run Windows OSes because that's the only way for them to get help locally. Sigh.

I'll look at Win 8, and may familiarize myself with it, but see no reason to proceed along that path.

Dan

laddy
11-23-2012, 04:58 PM
Just updated my computer to stay with win 7 They say win 8 is a horror story. I don't do good with change so went with win 7 They say win 8 is goo for touch screen lap top Good luck Fred

Evan
11-23-2012, 05:02 PM
Forever is a very long time. I will not live that long.

grumpygator
11-23-2012, 05:45 PM
I think I will stay with my XP.I still get updates from ms but wait a week or so to insal them.
There are people that tell me that ms will stop suporting XP all the time.I just look at them and ask "When was the last time you went to a hospital"
I had to take swmbo to the local one last week {Nothing serious in and out in a mear nine hours} and as I cant sit that long I started to walk the halls.On one floor I counted over 80 pc's all runing XP.So my thinking is ms will keep on suporting XP till the cows come home.If it ain't broke don't fix it.
If you want more bells and whistles buy a new pc and keep your old one.
Myself I dont like being a beta tes monkey.
*******Just Saying******************Gator********************* ****

goose
11-23-2012, 06:32 PM
I agree Microsoft is clueless in this case. Nothing new to them, consider their Surface tablet, -- overpriced and late to the game. Might as well called it “Zune II”
I’ve got Windows 7 on my system, which comes with $15 upgrade to Win 8, but I’ll stick with Win 7 for free before I screw up my system with their diseased upgrade.
If MS were smart, (and they’re not, their success is only a function of their bigness, not their smartness) they would have released their operating systems free as open source a long time ago and positioned themselves to dominate the tablet market.

loose nut
11-23-2012, 07:11 PM
I can't speak to the "wrongness" of 8 but my son has it and he says it is just different, not necessarily crap. It has one good feature though. It is extremely fast.

Jimmer12
11-23-2012, 07:32 PM
My mom just bought a new notebook with windows 8, she doesn't handle change well, so I added the "classic shell" mentioned earlier, and now it functions essentially the same as Windows 7, but moves faster.

atty
11-23-2012, 09:16 PM
For those that may be wondering what it's like without wrecking an existing computer install, I recommend VMWare Player, which will allow you to create a virtual drive on your existing computer.....about 60G required. Can be far less if you don't load it with programs. Anyway, you can play with it in "sandbox" mode just as if you really had it installed. When you come to the conclusion that it is not built for desktops, a simple "Delete", and it all goes away. Then you can say that you've seen, ran it, and......no thanks.

danlb
11-23-2012, 09:25 PM
I'm pretty sure that to install win8 in a VM LEGALLY you have to pay for it first, and I can't see them refunding your money once it's installed.

A cute trick for all the recent MS operating systems; they require newer, faster hardware so they run faster. Any fresh install always runs a bit faster, so they always get good reviews for speed.


Dan

atty
11-23-2012, 10:43 PM
I'm pretty sure that to install win8 in a VM LEGALLY you have to pay for it first, and I can't see them refunding your money once it's installed.
Dan

Legally, I would assumed means Activation. If you would like to borrow your friend's disk to install it on a trial basis, it is perfectly legal, and that will be all you will need to determine if you want to continue. VM provides that option in a virtual world, and I would suggest that's all the demonstration you will require to make a decision if you really want to buy it.

I seriously doubt many will take that leap.

The Artful Bodger
11-23-2012, 11:49 PM
OK, I have just ordered an ASUS all in one desktop with a touch screen and Windows 7.
http://www.asus.com/Allinone_PCs/22_inch/ET2210INTS/#specifications

If W8 is so good for touch screen I wonder if I should be getting the W8 upgrade, hmmm, maybe I can resist the temptation!;)

kendall
11-24-2012, 12:29 AM
OK, I have just ordered an ASUS all in one desktop with a touch screen and Windows 7.
http://www.asus.com/Allinone_PCs/22_inch/ET2210INTS/#specifications

If W8 is so good for touch screen I wonder if I should be getting the W8 upgrade, hmmm, maybe I can resist the temptation!;)

I tried the W8 pre release, and and it is noticeably faster, and seems to have better memory management, but I simply don't care for the interface. It's one of the few OSs that I've tried that didn't eventually get moved to it's own drive for real testing, it stayed in a VM. If it had the conventional desktop interface, I'd have installed it and possibly purchased a retail copy.
I'll have to try classic shell now to see if I like that.

If that is the way MS is going though, I'll run W7 till drivers are no longer available, then migrate full time to linux.

I've used touch screens on point of sale systems, and they worked fine, but for my desktop I simply don't sit close enough to use a touch screen. If I crowd up close to the keyboard, the monitor is still not reachable without leaning forward. With all the computers I've serviced, I have only seen a few that were reached comfortably while sitting at a desk, point of sales installations where they're operated mostly while standing at a counter, like the touch screens I've used were could benefit.
One might work in the shop where I'm often just doing a quick look up though.

dp
11-24-2012, 12:45 AM
I suspect Win8 is the MSFT equivalent of the Apple managed computer model. With the new Apple stuff you have to join the AppStore and give up a credit card number. That kind of vertical lockin should be illegal in my opinion. You no longer get a copy of the OS and even if you had it you still have to connect to the apple store to install it. The application vendors are all but held at gunpoint to put their apps on the AppStore or to lose market share to those who do. You now have a heinous problem because the AppStore EULA states you will not uses AppStore applications COMMERCIALLY! And you are committed to the app vendor's EULA as well as the AppStore EULA. Apple is making a killing because they get a piece of every sale without adding any added value.

Linux is being abandoned by all but the opensource vendors which remains to be largely crap. I make a lot of money working on Linux powered servers but the workstation support is getting worse. What I've become aware of is that the general purpose computer, which includes every desktop OS since the beginning of personal computing, is ending the way cell phones began - with the vendor owning all aspects of the software installation process. Apple has shown the way and Windows, the only other viable vendor, is playing me too.

john buck
11-24-2012, 09:41 AM
I installed the windows8 Pro on my PC on a seperate partition, it's awful. Yes, having to buy Apps should be outlawed. Had a look at the latest Ubuntu and it's the same crap.

ironmonger
11-24-2012, 11:40 AM
I purchased a new ASUS laptop for my wife which was supposed to be delivered with WIN7. It came with win 8 instead. I figgered I'll try it and decide if I like it, since I am my wife's IT department. If I don't like it I don't' think she will...

To my surprise, before you can even see the new controversial desktop, you are asked to create an MS account so that you will be able to buy apps... even got past that...

As it happens, I am perfectly happy with my pop server based email accounts. Microsoft is not. What's more I could not even download Firefox or Thunderbird without getting said MS account.

While I thought that the interface, although different, would be manageable, the intrusion on the part of MS regarding personal information and restructuring my email accounts was too much. Everything was wiped from the drive, and the laptop was returned the next morning.

My wife decided that she would be just as happy with my Samsung notebook so that problem is solved. Took the cash and purchased some new toys for me.

paul


I installed the windows8 Pro on my PC on a seperate partition, it's awful. Yes, having to buy Apps should be outlawed. Had a look at the latest Ubuntu and it's the same crap.

gcude
11-24-2012, 12:19 PM
I purchased a new ASUS laptop for my wife which was supposed to be delivered with WIN7. It came with win 8 instead. I figgered I'll try it and decide if I like it, since I am my wife's IT department. If I don't like it I don't' think she will...

To my surprise, before you can even see the new controversial desktop, you are asked to create an MS account so that you will be able to buy apps... even got past that...

As it happens, I am perfectly happy with my pop server based email accounts. Microsoft is not. What's more I could not even download Firefox or Thunderbird without getting said MS account.

While I thought that the interface, although different, would be manageable, the intrusion on the part of MS regarding personal information and restructuring my email accounts was too much. Everything was wiped from the drive, and the laptop was returned the next morning.

My wife decided that she would be just as happy with my Samsung notebook so that problem is solved. Took the cash and purchased some new toys for me.

paul

My wife is also looking to get new Win laptop because she is frustrated with the Apple limits on what she can choose to install on HER equipment. I'm sad to hear of Microsoft's new tactics to mimic Apple and restrict freedom of choice in apps and requiring logged allegiance to the big M.

lakeside53
11-24-2012, 12:36 PM
Unlike Apple, MS allows the installation of apps that don't come via a "store". Yes, they are moving in the direction of "cloud based apps" but you don't HAVE to go there in the forseeable future.

As for all you Win 8 early adopters lol... I live in MS back yard and get their stuff pretty much for free, but I'm waiting a while even on the tablet :) My legacy gear will stay on Win 7 (which is still available).

As for giving them "personal information? lol get over it. Make up anything, give nothing relevant. It works just fine. It's not like they are asking for your credit card and SS number (yet!)..

ironmonger
11-24-2012, 12:56 PM
Which only leaves my archaic pop servers. I use multiple email addresses to sort replies into folders. I don't want to change. :mad:
You have to give them an viable email address to enable downloading in IE. If you don't enter the emailed code or reply to the link you got nada. Short of loading Firefox from a disk I didn't see a way to do it that didn't require more effort than just taking it back. I own 4 copies of WIN7 two XP and have 5 boxes on mint. Gonna stay that way...

paul


Unlike Apple, MS allows the installation of apps that don't come via a "store". Yes, they are moving in the direction of "cloud based apps" but you don't HAVE to go there in the forseeable future.

As for all you Win 8 early adopters lol... I live in MS back yard and get their stuff pretty much for free, but I'm waiting a while even on the tablet :) My legacy gear will stay on Win 7 (which is still available).

As for giving them "personal information? lol get over it. Make up anything, give nothing relevant. It works just fine. It's not like they are asking for your credit card and SS number (yet!)..

alanganes
11-24-2012, 02:50 PM
I still don't get the theory that my desktop or laptop should work like a touch pad. It's not a touch pad, it is a desktop (or laptop). It does not have a touch screen, and I don't think I want it to. I like using a mouse.

I work on the road a lot for my job, the company IT guy decided that we would be better off having IPADS instead of laptops. I whined and kicked, but was not given the option. Have several tablets around at home (ipad and a couple of others) as well as an iphone. Love my iphone. I used to like the tablets. Now that I am forced to use the ipad in place of my laptop for work, I hate the thing. The more I use it, the less i like it. I can't stand not having a mouse when composing emails. I hate the whole "poke and hold" to clip and paste. I hate the lack of precise placement of the cursor that you get poking at a touch screen. I hate having to open a different app to do almost anything. I hate having my stuff stuck in the cloud when wifi is not available. He keeps repeating Apple advertising slogans like "it just works" but then we are forbidden from updating to the current ipad OS, as it renders our VPN and several other key apps inoperative. The ipad is a cool gadget, but it is not a laptop. They serve different roles, I think.

Too bad the MS, for all it's flaws, is following the same thinking. I almost bought a copy of win8 just to test drive it. Seven has worked just fine for me, since it came out. Sounds like I should just stick with it for a while yet.

Black_Moons
11-24-2012, 03:23 PM
Windows 8 gets worse the more I read about it.. Some things I have learned:
You can't develope a metro application without registering as a developer (and paying?) microsoft. It won't even run.
You can't use a LOT of api's in a metro application. Windows scans your application for them and won't allow it to run, even if your a developer.
DirectX11.1+ won't be released on windows 7, Result is DirectX11.1 won't be seen in any games for at LEAST 5 years, Just like how DX10/11 got majorly held back because it was not avilable in XP, Still today most games are DX9 with many offering a DX10/11 mode, but thats twice the work for the game developer, DX9 is NOTHING like DX10/11

You can't sell a metro application ANYWHERE but windows store. It won't run unless it has been sold through MS store.
Want a friend/beta tester to run your application? Not allowed unless you give him the source and hes a registered developer.
There is no 'Jailbreak' for windows 8 and theres lockin from boot preventing it, similar to consoles/iphone.
Want to distribute an application you made in your own company? have to buy a bulk (100 lisence pack) of windows and deal with the MS lisencing devision.


Want to get your application on the windows store? Good luck!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/26/windows_store_submission_headaches/
"Microsoft rejected his app no less than six times without ever providing a clear explanation of what was wrong or what he could do to resolve the problem."
"At the App Excellence event, Harmon and a Microsoft Field Engineer went over a 60-point checklist to ensure that his app met Redmond's design guidelines and was ready for submission to the Windows Store. All seemed well.

No such luck, though. When Harmon finally submitted his app in August, he received a rejection notice a day later. Memorylage crashed, he was told, though the notice didn't specify when or how. He was told it had performance problems, but not what kind. He was told it failed a Direct 3D test, which seemed strange since it wasn't a 3D app and it only used standard controls. Furthermore, the notice said, his website wasn't finished."

So, Even with a field engineer, paid to go over your program with a 60 point checklist (Holy restrictive!), Still no go at being allowed in and no idea why. All that work and his application may never get sold, Why? Nobody knows!

Enjoy playing russian roulette with your time if you want to submit to the windows store.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx List of restrictions for metro applications. 12 pages long!

"3.2 Your app must not stop responding, end unexpectedly, or contain programming errors"

So windows itself isent allowed, Nore is... Any software on earth, really.

3.5 Your app must fully support touch input, and fully support keyboard and mouse input
Your app must provide visual feedback when users touch interactive elements.
3.8 Your app must meet the basic performance criteria on a low-power computer
•The app must launch in 5 seconds or less
•The app must suspend in 2 seconds or less
3.10 Direct3D apps must support a minimum feature level
This requirement applies if you depend on specific 3D graphics hardware features.
If your app includes an ARM or a Neutral package it must support Direct3D feature level 9_1.

So, All games must also run on DX9 if you want to make them for DX10/11. Joy, twice the work.

•Video streams, which include download-only and two-way video messaging, must use an adaptive bit-rate technology and limit the transfer rate to no more than 256 Kbps.
•Audio streams, which include voice over IP (VOIP), must limit the data rate to no more than 64KBps

Yes, MS is telling you how much bandwidth to use now too.

5.1 Your app must not contain adult content, and metadata must be appropriate for everyone
Apps with a rating over PEGI 16, ESRB MATURE, or that contain content that would warrant such a rating, are not allowed. Metadata and other content you submit to accompany your app may contain only content that would merit a rating of PEGI 12, ESRB EVERYONE, or Windows Store 12+, or lower.

So, No GTA, metal of honor, COD... Basiclly any major game that features a gun or killing of anything.

5.3 Your app must not contain content or functionality that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes illegal activity
Another strike against GTA. lol

5.6 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes excessive or irresponsible use of alcohol or tobacco products, drugs or weapons
5.7 Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes extreme or gratuitous violence, human rights violations, or the creation or use of weapons against a person or animal in the real world

Absolutely NO FUN GAMES WHATSOEVER.

6.1 Your app must have a unique name

Ah, Unique. Like.. 'Windows' or 'metro' or 'modren' or.. Oh wait... those are all common everyday words...

6.3 You must provide technical support info for your app
If your app requires authentication, such as a user or account name and password, you must provide a retrieval mechanism for account info—for example, through a secondary email account or phone support—and respond to customers within 24 hours.

You must not have security! You must support your $1 application that you only get 70% of the profits from.

Black_Moons
11-24-2012, 03:33 PM
Oh, Almost forgot this tidbit. Except more like an iceburg so lets give it its own post:

Lets say you buy your new windows 8 PC. Don't like it. Lets install... Linux!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/21/linux_foundation_secure_boot_fix_delays/
Oh... Turns out, theres security in the BIOS thats explicitly locking you out from loading another bootloader that would let you run linux.
Preprogramed with keys from the OEM manufacturers from microsoft, That apparently you can't change unless you have the origional keys. (Security, Dontch know. Of course, proper security wouldn't let a virus overwrite your boot loader, but lets ignore that GIANT ELEPHANT)
Result? you need to have your OS signed by microsoft if you want it to be able to run on any PC currently being sold with windows 8 today.
And suprise suprise, MS isent signing linux.

Black_Moons
11-24-2012, 04:04 PM
Unlike Apple, MS allows the installation of apps that don't come via a "store". Yes, they are moving in the direction of "cloud based apps" but you don't HAVE to go there in the forseeable future.

As for all you Win 8 early adopters lol... I live in MS back yard and get their stuff pretty much for free, but I'm waiting a while even on the tablet :) My legacy gear will stay on Win 7 (which is still available).

As for giving them "personal information? lol get over it. Make up anything, give nothing relevant. It works just fine. It's not like they are asking for your credit card and SS number (yet!)..

Only 'non metro' applications can be installed from anywhere but the windows store, And only on x86 windows 8, ARM (Surface, phones, etc) is metro only and 100% locked in.

Next you'll see ARM desktops. Poof! all your previous software is unusable and nothing you can install on them comes from outside MS store.
Or maybe windows 9 will drop support for 'standard' applications. Or a 'critical security update' will just 'break' support for them in windows 8 and they won't bother to fix it.

Oh, And they indeed are asking for your credit card number. How else would you buy anything on the app store?
You know with the 'cloud' they can remotely disable all your applications if they decide your account has 'invalid information'
Steam has done it to people for 'cheating'.. And others for accepting gifts from people using stolen CC's.

lakeside53
11-24-2012, 04:31 PM
I guess you are screwed then :)


So don't give them any cc info and don't buy from the store! The version of Surface coming In December has both ARM and x86. Yes, you will see ARM "desktops" and appliances, but X86 isn't going away.

Like all consumers you have a choice not to buy MS or Apple, or xxx products. lol...

danlb
11-24-2012, 04:44 PM
I guess you are screwed then :)

Like all consumers you have a choice not to buy MS or Apple, or xxx products. lol...

The problem comes when the product is DELL or Compaq, but MS has required that the BIOS be locked down (in the name of security) so that no other OS can be installed. If they are concerned about a yet another Windows virus overwriting the boot sector, then they can simply require that you push a button (that the BIOS can confirm) before overwriting the boot sector. Requiring a user to ask Microsoft's permission before upgrading the OS to someone else's software is very bad. I'm not sure it is even legal, considering the past lawsuits (and settlements) against their manipulation of the market.

Dan

JohnAlex141r
11-24-2012, 05:43 PM
Look, Microsoft has already hit the iceberg, and is sinking.

As always, look at what teenagers are using, and you will see the next trend in technology. You'll find most people 30 and younger don't really know what a "Microsoft" is.

Look at the computers in a coffee shop, or at University, or whatever, and you'll see a sea of glowing apples, or apple mobile or Android mobile.

Locking the BIOS will only be done by some HW companies, others will realize that there's a market segment just vacated by those implementing BIOS locking. (besides, I did read somewhere about a Linux "key" recently ?)

What I worry about is what all those Mach users are going to do about their CNC controllers; LinuxCNC while 100x better than Mach (my estimate) ;-) is not that easy to install and configure. Once it's running it's rock solid, it's just getting a machine there.

Another JohnS.

.RC.
11-24-2012, 05:56 PM
What I worry about is what all those Mach users are going to do about their CNC controllers; LinuxCNC while 100x better than Mach (my estimate) ;-) is not that easy to install and configure. Once it's running it's rock solid, it's just getting a machine there.

Another JohnS.

Upgrade to Mach4 I guess when it comes out...

Dunno why people love xp so much, It was massively unstable compared to even Vista.. I was forever crashing xp..

Evan
11-24-2012, 06:35 PM
As I said, Win 7 seems to be the last of the jack of all trades etc desktop operating system. Even then there is a raft of annoying background garbage going on. You cannot make it entirely independent of Microsoft, for instance. It has a built in "activation engine" that checks activation every six months and if it doesn't pass or doesn't have access it puts the machine in a heavily restricted mode that basically only allows you to reactivate.

The same applies to all MS software products since Office 2003. Off 2003 has one time activation but it was the last. Since then even corp product licenses require periodic activation checks along with the OS. The last truly independent OS is XP. Once activated it stays that way. It can be used as long as you wish without a network connection so if you need a CNC machine with Windows use XP.

I like Win 7 even though I had to go into the Group Policy editor and turn off a slew of MS background crap that I don't want running and phoning home every few hours, days or weeks. There are many, too many to list here. Win 7 has far better memory management and fewer limitations. It also works properly with multi core CPUs. Win 7 is the end of the line for a true multipurpose OS that will allow you to run whatever you want including your own software.

Other than the OS there is very little from Microsoft on my machine unless it directly supports the OS in some way. The only MS apps I run are from the Research Division which is an entirely separate part of MS and gives away their software with no limitations. They have some very cool stuff too.

Don't be put off by the items you see in the list. Much of it is pretty esoteric but it is interspersed with some really good stuff like MS ICE which is an excellent panorama creator.

http://research.microsoft.com/apps/catalog/default.aspx?t=downloads

bhowden
11-24-2012, 08:02 PM
>>>Win 7 is the end of the line for a true multipurpose OS

So far, Win 8 is all of Windows 7 Plus the locked down stuff. I am assuming it will be many more generations of windows before they actually take out the core Win32 stuff on X86. Even the old 16 bit windows stuff worked right up to the 64 bit versions of the OS. I think the "Developers must register" is only if you want to distribute your app through the app store (which is the only way to distribute a tiled app). If all you are doing is playing you can still use the Visual studio Express tools to build and run any kind of app on your own machine including tiled apps. Regular desktop apps are developed and distributed the same way they always were.

Brian

lakeside53
11-24-2012, 08:07 PM
Exactly...

Black_Moons
11-24-2012, 08:24 PM
>>>Win 7 is the end of the line for a true multipurpose OS

So far, Win 8 is all of Windows 7 Plus the locked down stuff. I am assuming it will be many more generations of windows before they actually take out the core Win32 stuff on X86. Even the old 16 bit windows stuff worked right up to the 64 bit versions of the OS. I think the "Developers must register" is only if you want to distribute your app through the app store (which is the only way to distribute a tiled app). If all you are doing is playing you can still use the Visual studio Express tools to build and run any kind of app on your own machine including tiled apps. Regular desktop apps are developed and distributed the same way they always were.

Brian

Incorrect, You must register to be able to even launch a metro application you have made yourself.
All metro applications *MUST* be signed or windows refuses to run them period, If you could run an application you made yourself without registering to be a developer and signing them as developer applications with your key, Nobody would have to use the windows store to distribute applications.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh974578.aspx
"A developer license for Windows 8 lets you install, develop, test, and evaluate Windows Store apps before the Windows Store tests and certifies them"

"Microsoft can detect fraudulent use of a developer license on a registered machine. If Microsoft detects fraudulent use or another violation of the software license terms, we might revoke your developer license. The monitoring process helps ensure the overall health of the app marketplace. "

So, even if you tried to distribute an application with your dev lisence, they would simpley revoke the lisence, Likey retroactivly making all computers with your application unable to run them anymore. (Something they might do to you at any time, for any reason they see fit (Including false posatives from verious antipiracy measures), meaning your unable to legaly write an application for windows metro UI anymore)

They may also start restricting dev lisences with huge fees, or only to large registered corperations due to 'software piracy/security/etc', if dev lisences are used to get around store controls.

lakeside53
11-24-2012, 08:35 PM
Hey Moons.. lots of "mights and coulds"" in your analysis. Let's see in 5 years if they did...

danlb
11-24-2012, 09:23 PM
As I said, Win 7 seems to be the last of the jack of all trades etc desktop operating system.


.....From Microsoft. There are still other OSes that do a fine job of general purpose desktop.

I could argue that Win 7 is not a jack of all trades desktop os, since there are 7 versions of Win 7 and you need the Professional version just to get the abilities that were in XP premium.

Of course, I'm an old Unix guy who is perfectly comfortable with using various Linux distributions.

Dan

winchman
11-25-2012, 02:39 AM
I was playing with a HP Pavilion all-in-one with a wired keyboard and mouse running W8 yesterday at the Office Depot. It really worked pretty well for me. An earlier experience with W8 on a laptop with touch pad was VERY frustrating.

One thing that surprised me was that the HP comes with Norton security software installed. If W8 has built-in security, it seems like MS wouldn't want a vendor to add on security software. That gives one the impression that the built-in system isn't adequate for average user.

Just how good are the built-in security features of W8?

I'm shopping for a new computer to replace the 9-year-old Dell with XP I've got. I'm really having a hard time deciding between W8 or getting one of the few remaining W7-equipped machines still available. Not having to deal with add-on security software would be a real plus for W8.

Ed P
11-25-2012, 08:00 AM
One thing that surprised me was that the HP comes with Norton security software installed. If W8 has built-in security, it seems like MS wouldn't want a vendor to add on security software. That gives one the impression that the built-in system isn't adequate for average user.


I also have been looking at new computers. When ordering an HP almost all their machines have Norton as an option.

Ed P

lakeside53
11-25-2012, 11:18 AM
Just marketing... Norton pays for the privilege. I trash Norton on new devices and install MS Essentials, which is free and pretty much invisible unless it detects a problem.

DR
11-25-2012, 01:07 PM
I'm learning (actually, reading) more about W8 than I think I want to know.

What I really want to know is will my old software, 32 bit CAD/Cam, etc, etc, run on it? This software is currently running on my old XP desktop, a W7 shop computer and a W7 laptop. Eventually those computers will die so a replacement will be needed.

Evan
11-25-2012, 02:56 PM
Of course, I'm an old Unix guy who is perfectly comfortable with using various Linux distributions.

Me as well. I used Linux as a tool to repair broken Windows installations that wouldn't boot. Also, Xerox used (uses?) UNIX as the built in control system for their network connected devices. They gave us Windows laptops to act as a terminal emulator to provide a GUI for UNIX.

Evan
11-25-2012, 03:01 PM
I trash Norton on new devices and install MS Essentials, which is free and pretty much invisible unless it detects a problem.

+1. MSE works fine and consumes nearly zero resources. I set it up as a gatekeeper only since if the malware can't get on the machine there is no reason to check every file each time it is touched. Stupid.

I also have to keep it out of my utility directories where I keep the viruses. http://ixian.ca/pics9/biggrin.gif

Evan
11-25-2012, 03:15 PM
That reminds me. If you have JAVA on any of your web browsers make sure it is disabled fully. Not Javascript, but JAVA. A number of severe vulnerabilities have been found this year that allow malware to break out of the JAVA sandbox and take full control of the OS. The vulnerabilities are so called "zero day" issues which mean the black hats have found them first. That means when they use them there will be no way to stop them regardless of what anti-malware software you run. These issues are especially bad because they involve "drive-by-downloads" if JAVA is enabled. All you need to do is visit a compromised web site to become infected. That could be any website on the WWW.

Black_Moons
11-25-2012, 04:34 PM
That reminds me. If you have JAVA on any of your web browsers make sure it is disabled fully. Not Javascript, but JAVA. A number of severe vulnerabilities have been found this year that allow malware to break out of the JAVA sandbox and take full control of the OS. The vulnerabilities are so called "zero day" issues which mean the black hats have found them first. That means when they use them there will be no way to stop them regardless of what anti-malware software you run. These issues are especially bad because they involve "drive-by-downloads" if JAVA is enabled. All you need to do is visit a compromised web site to become infected. That could be any website on the WWW.

Its one of the reasons I disable java, and sometimes even activeX for all non trusted sites.
And why I really dislike when a website just signs up for some 3rd party ad service, thats how 0 day exploits usally get used.

Someone creates a exploit advertisement and uploads it to the ad networks... Ad service networks don't get paid to stop these, infact they get paid BY the malware creator to distribute it. (its an ad). They don't get much blowback when they infect hundreds/thousands of computers either. Iv never once heard anyone say "Im dumping XYZ ad network because they infected my <forum/website/company>'s customers!
Only "Its not our fault you got infected and google blacklisted our website! its haxsors fault for uploading exploits to ad network!" - site admin
Meanwhile, admin was the one who decided on the ad network.

lakeside53
11-25-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm learning (actually, reading) more about W8 than I think I want to know.

What I really want to know is will my old software, 32 bit CAD/Cam, etc, etc, run on it? This software is currently running on my old XP desktop, a W7 shop computer and a W7 laptop. Eventually those computers will die so a replacement will be needed.


If it runs on Win 7 it will run on Win 8.

winchman
11-26-2012, 04:44 PM
I've looked on my computer for JAVA, and it's not on the list that comes up when I click "All Programs".

In the list for "Add or Remove programs", I see "J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 6" which is rarely used.

There's also a JAVA icon on the control panel, but no obvious way to turn it on or off. The "About" page says "JAVA2 Platform Standard Edition".

Is any of that something I should be concerned about, and what can I do to disable it if it is?

Lew Hartswick
11-26-2012, 04:51 PM
I've looked on my computer for JAVA, and it's not on the list that comes up when I click "All Programs".

In the list for "Add or Remove programs", I see "J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Update 6" which is rarely used.

There's also a JAVA icon on the control panel, but no obvious way to turn it on or off. The "About" page says "JAVA2 Platform Standard Edition".

Is any of that something I should be concerned about, and what can I do to disable it if it is?
A big HOW and where should I look to see if it's "in there" . ???
...lew...

ulav8r
11-26-2012, 09:30 PM
I went to java.com (I think) and there was a link to check for updates. It reported that Java was not located and offered to download. I just closed that tab.

beanbag
11-27-2012, 08:12 AM
I set up my mom's new Dell computer with W8 over this Thanksgiving break. Thank you for mentioning classic shell, which restores a lot of W7 functionality. IMO, I like the "desktop" portion of W8 slightly better than W7, but the tiles and metro part cause me great anger for various reasons that others already know about and I don't need to repeat. However, my mom kind of likes that tiles stuff. Shrug.

Evan
11-27-2012, 11:02 AM
How to disable JAVA:

http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/08/30/how-turn-off-java-browser/

winchman
11-27-2012, 06:46 PM
Thanks for that^^.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to keep my banking info safe on my computer. I have Firefox, IE8, and Chrome browsers.

Would reserving one of the browsers SOLELY for banking-related activities provide any protection?

Would malware that came through the general-use browser be able to access info in the banking browser?

Would there be any advantage to using the In-Private setting of the browser for the banking-related activity?

Evan
11-27-2012, 07:11 PM
Would reserving one of the browsers SOLELY for banking-related activities provide any protection?

Yes. If possible don't use IE for banking as it is the most susceptible to attack. Use one of the lesser known browsers such as Opera. Turn off all possible features that the bank website doesn't use.

If malware takes over the computer then it can access anything and everything. If it is able to gain admin level access then it can and most likely will install a keystroke monitor that tracks all keystrokes and sends them "home". That way it snags your passwords. You can avoid that threat in many cases by having your password readily available in written form in notepad or similar. Just don't name it "Passwords". http://ixian.ca/pics9/biggrin.gif Then copy and paste it into the password window and no keystrokes occur. It completely bypasses the keyboard buffer.

I don't know what IE does during an In-Private session so I cannot answer that question.

beanbag
11-29-2012, 01:48 AM
You can avoid that threat in many cases by having your password readily available in written form in notepad or similar. Just don't name it "Passwords". http://ixian.ca/pics9/biggrin.gif Then copy and paste it into the password window and no keystrokes occur. It completely bypasses the keyboard buffer.


At first I thought this was a good idea, but then I searched on this idea on the interweb. It turns out that security professionals don't recommend it because it is "trivially easy" to grab the contents of the windows clipboard.

Evan
11-29-2012, 04:06 AM
Of course it is. But keystroke loggers rarely do since most people don't know they can do that.

It can also cause major problems for a keystroke logger to pay attention to the clip board. It is trying to be stealthy but if tries to log clipboard activity it can easily get caught with very large quantities of data.

kendall
11-30-2012, 04:09 AM
Yes. If possible don't use IE for banking as it is the most susceptible to attack. Use one of the lesser known browsers such as Opera. Turn off all possible features that the bank website doesn't use.

If malware takes over the computer then it can access anything and everything. If it is able to gain admin level access then it can and most likely will install a keystroke monitor that tracks all keystrokes and sends them "home". That way it snags your passwords. You can avoid that threat in many cases by having your password readily available in written form in notepad or similar. Just don't name it "Passwords". http://ixian.ca/pics9/biggrin.gif Then copy and paste it into the password window and no keystrokes occur. It completely bypasses the keyboard buffer.

I don't know what IE does during an In-Private session so I cannot answer that question.


Give sandboxie a try.
As the name implies, it's a sandbox that isolates what you're running from the computer. It's much lighter and easier to setup than a VM, and will run programs that refuse to run in a VM.
No affiliation,it just works well for

Krunch
11-30-2012, 07:19 AM
Windows 8 http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/lol8.gif

lazlo
11-30-2012, 07:53 AM
Hey Moons.. lots of "mights and coulds"" in your analysis. Let's see in 5 years if they did...

He's right though Andy. Microsoft is emulating the Apple iTunes model, since that is roughly half of Apple's revenue. So like Apple's draconian iOS developer's model, you have to buy a license, submit your software for review, and Apple (Microsoft) gets a large portion of the royalties.

If you Google "Metro developer's model", there are a bunch of blogs from pissed-off developers... Like Apple/iOS, if Microsoft catches you trying to side-load your Metro app, they're going to come down on you like the wrath of God.

That said, that's strictly the distribution through the Metro (Microsoft iTunes) store. There's absolutely nothing that prevents you, or any other developer, from running software on your own machine.

Tuckerfan
11-30-2012, 11:08 PM
I wouldn't hold out much hope for Windows 9 to be any better. (http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/28/3693368/windows-blue-update-low-cost) Not mentioned in that article is the rumor that MS is planning on going for an annual subscription model for their OS, meaning that instead of paying for it once, you pay for it every year (or monthly).

Given that lots of businesses don't rush out and upgrade to the latest version of Windows because they can't afford to have critical software break due to incompatibilities with mission critical software, I can't see this as being a popular move on MS' part.

oldtiffie
11-30-2012, 11:14 PM
As a point of interest, how long is MS going to keep supporting W8 and IE9?

oldtiffie
11-30-2012, 11:18 PM
I wouldn't hold out much hope for Windows 9 to be any better. (http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/28/3693368/windows-blue-update-low-cost) Not mentioned in that article is the rumor that MS is planning on going for an annual subscription model for their OS, meaning that instead of paying for it once, you pay for it every year (or monthly).

Given that lots of businesses don't rush out and upgrade to the latest version of Windows because they can't afford to have critical software break due to incompatibilities with mission critical software, I can't see this as being a popular move on MS' part.

Annual subscriptions are not new - like it or not.

I'd guess that some have their CAD and similar software charging on that basis and even if they don't liker it they seem resigned to it..

I have some software on that basis.

My AV software is updated several times a day sometimes.

beanbag
12-01-2012, 03:08 AM
As a point of interest, how long is MS going to keep supporting W8 and IE9?

http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/default.aspx?LN=en-au&x=14&y=4&p1=16799

It might get extended (like with Windows XP) if it turns out businesses like it and refuse to upgrade.

kendall
12-01-2012, 08:16 AM
I wouldn't hold out much hope for Windows 9 to be any better. (http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/28/3693368/windows-blue-update-low-cost) Not mentioned in that article is the rumor that MS is planning on going for an annual subscription model for their OS, meaning that instead of paying for it once, you pay for it every year (or monthly).

Given that lots of businesses don't rush out and upgrade to the latest version of Windows because they can't afford to have critical software break due to incompatibilities with mission critical software, I can't see this as being a popular move on MS' part.

If that's the plan MS has, I see a lot of ads coming for computer techs and server admins with linux experience.

lazlo
12-01-2012, 10:51 AM
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/default.aspx?LN=en-au&x=14&y=4&p1=16799

It might get extended (like with Windows XP) if it turns out businesses like it and refuse to upgrade.

That didn't work for Vista. Most corporations, including Intel and Nvidia, refused to transition to Vista.

lakeside53
12-01-2012, 12:13 PM
Subscription for MS product isn't new for business. For at least 15 years (maybe much more) they don't go out and buy 50-500 copies of software ... they execute a bulk licensing deal with MS which give them unlimited updates for purchased seats for the duration of the license, which is renewed annually (typically). You own the product. Every year or so you report your usage and adjust your license if more.

Very few corporations transitioned to Vista because it was a power hogging POS. It pretty much required a massive hardware update for all users. A heck of a lot of business users are still on XP, but in reality it's a mixed bag - try to get a new laptop running on XP.

Don't believe every rumor that you hear about MS directions. They float ideas continuously and retract them just about as fast. I can hear different "proposed" directions on the same day from different mid level MS managers!

One thing that is coming (in stages) is that applications will be bought from 'the cloud" - no physical media. May as well anyhow, take Office for example. By the time you install the dvd/cd, it's out of date and the app goes out and gets 500M of updates before it works. It will be years before the media option disappears.

It's been in place for years. For example, download MS office "trial". You get the full product and 30 days to give it a vaild licence key. I could do this for my relatives in NZ. They could download from MS, I buy the product in the USA and email the key to them. But... I'd be breaking the end user licence agreement ;)

lazlo
12-01-2012, 12:27 PM
One thing that is coming (in stages) is that applications will be bought from 'the cloud" - no physical media.

Cloud computing -- sigh. IT has re-discovered the Network Appliance from early 2000's, which was rediscovered from "Client-Server" from the late 90's.

lakeside53
12-01-2012, 12:37 PM
Yes, but now we have the pipes to extend that to the home :-) In the mid 80's I was the neighborhood bandwidth-god with ISDN. 128k. Yippie! lol.. glad I wasn't paying.

Evan
12-01-2012, 02:28 PM
Yes, but now we have the pipes to extend that to the home...

Not everywhere we don't. My neighbours are still on dialup and I have a 425 megabyte per day limit except between 2:00 am and 7:00 am. Speed for download is .25 megabyte per second but upload is only about 2-3 times dialup at best and slower in prime time. There is no sign we will have any better any time soon. We don't even have cell phone service. Neither does the majority of the land area of BC. This is a very lumpy landscape. I detest cloud based anything.

gcude
12-01-2012, 02:45 PM
I have been a Microsoft subscriber to their Action Pack program for years. I'm subscribed with other vendors and the yearly and/or monthly renewal is a cost of doing business in my case. Businesses are more accustomed to maintenance fees that are required to stay current. The same type of renewal or maintenance fees for personal use are much more closely scrutinized by the end-user as it comes directly out of your after-tax pockets and leaves less money for other things like metalworking.

loose nut
12-01-2012, 07:45 PM
It doesn't matter what MS does because some smart cookie will find away to get around it and post it on the web.

J Tiers
12-01-2012, 09:01 PM
I detest cloud based anything.

I'll see that and raise it 100

lazlo
12-01-2012, 10:48 PM
I detest cloud based anything.

Likewise. I think most consumers do. There's just not even value to pay for someone else to have the real hardware, and sell you that upgraded hardware as a service.

There's a graphics card company :cool: who's making a big marketing push for virtual game servers. The idea is that you'd log in to a Far Cry server (or some other high-end game), and the graphics rendering would be done on a farm of beasty machines with high-end graphics cards, and feed to clients, for a fee.

Considering that a good mid-range graphics card runs $100 - $200, how much can you possibly make selling this service?? Then there's the issue of network lag: high end games want 60 FPS, not only because it's visually smoother, but because when playing head-to-head, the geometry/collision updates (i.e., getting shot) are resolved at frame rate.

Network Appliance/Cloud Computing is just a marketing wet dream. It'll die out and be re-discovered again in 5 years...

The bigger problem, as far as Microsoft is concerned, is how to continue making money, now that there's no more low hanging fruit for OS development. Apple is faced with a similar issue, but now 70% of Apple's revenues are from the iPhone, so they can really care less whether they sell MacOS.

Microsoft really wants to be in that position with the Surface, but from my experience playing with it, it ain't gonna happen.

Tuckerfan
12-01-2012, 11:17 PM
Not everywhere we don't. My neighbours are still on dialup and I have a 425 megabyte per day limit except between 2:00 am and 7:00 am. Speed for download is .25 megabyte per second but upload is only about 2-3 times dialup at best and slower in prime time. There is no sign we will have any better any time soon. We don't even have cell phone service. Neither does the majority of the land area of BC. This is a very lumpy landscape. I detest cloud based anything.

I don't completely hate the cloud, but I recognize that it has severe limitations. I've got cable internet, but because the cable company can't be bothered to rewire the complex I live in (since we were one of the first in the area to get cable, from what I'm told) my access to the internet isn't exactly what I'd call reliable. Wild swings in temperatures, such as often occur when the seasons change, are enough to slow, or completely kill my ability to access the web. Until high speed internet is as ubiquitous as the electricity in a major metropolitan area, and just as reliable, cloud based anything isn't going to be the norm for most people.

Furthermore, with processing power and prices falling, its unlikely that one's going to gain much advantage by shifting to the cloud. Estimates are that by 2045 (or so), the average laptop will have ten billion times the computing power that Google has in all its data centers! Some folks are even trying to find ways to shortcut the development time for that, and are trying to have such machines available by 2025! At that point, you don't really need the cloud for much of anything. Such a machine would be more powerful than the computers in Star Trek (or any other science fiction story you want to name).

Evan
12-02-2012, 12:27 AM
Playing a game with rendering done elsewhere is a sad delusion. Players of online action games fight to get connections with lag (ping times) just a few milliseconds better than the next guy. Even the fastest connections will have unacceptable and variable lags depending on everything including the phase of the moon. It will not work.

I really can't guess what Microsoft is going to do. They are facing a paradigm shift in the world of computing. They can't make a living off us diehards that want total control of their systems and know how to exercise it. They also can't sell operating systems for $300 for a device that costs $50 to build. That is how much it costs to build a tablet that retails for $199.

From what I read the Surface is very well equipped with hardware but it will never sell well at the current price. Since Win 8 was released PC sales are down something like 25% over last year. That is huge and is killing the big players in the desktop market such as Dell and HP. MS is still struggling to get business off XP. Over 50% of business is still using XP and they aren't even mildly interested in Win 8. Switching to a new OS in a large business has the potential to cost so much that it could put it under in tough times like now. It will require an entire hardware upgrade cycle as well as applications. It isn't like throwing a toggle switch.

Tuckerfan
12-02-2012, 01:15 AM
For some reason I'm reminded of this scene in Tomorrow Never Dies:

Elliot Carver: Mr. Jones, are we ready to release our new software?
Jones: Yes, sir. As requested, it's full of bugs, which means people will be forced to upgrade for years.
Elliot Carver: Outstanding.

danlb
12-02-2012, 01:20 AM
For some reason I'm reminded of this scene in Tomorrow Never Dies:

Elliot Carver: Mr. Jones, are we ready to release our new software?
Jones: Yes, sir. As requested, it's full of bugs, which means people will be forced to upgrade for years.
Elliot Carver: Outstanding.

My boss told the story of software (for a mainframe) that they were late delivering. Rather than admit that they blew the deadline they mailed blank tapes to the customers. Two weeks later they sent out an "update" tape that had the finished code on it. Not one customer complained.

Dan