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KiloBravo
11-24-2012, 07:53 PM
Hi Guys,

Been a while since I posted doing the work, wife and kids thing.
I need a little advice. I busted the shaft on a hydraulic motor that powers my hyrda bagger.
AKA a glorified leaf collection system. They do not sell the shaft only the motor. $825.
I paid $800 for the used tractor with hydra-bagger, so that is out of my price range.

Anyone turn a shaft for something like this ? Is 12L14 OK to use or do I need something stiffer ?
It does not look that hard to make about 6 inches long with two key slots one woodruff and one square.
I have a SB Heavy 10 that should be up for the task. Anyone know what kind of tolerance I would need ?

Also, anyone know what kind of bolts are holding the hydra motor together ? The bolt heads look like they are a spline.

pretty good pics of a similar unit
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ingersoll-Hydrabagger-Hydracart-AHVFB-AHVFC-Hydraulic-Motor-/130795113122

If you can take a look page 14 and 15 of the pdf my motor is the cc33108.
www.rottmansales.com/ingersoll/8-3082.pdf

Thanks,
Kevin

achtanelion
11-24-2012, 09:23 PM
No ideas about the shaft, but the screws look like external torx.

J

kd4gij
11-24-2012, 11:03 PM
The bolts are star head. Your local auto parts should have the sockets.

duckman
11-25-2012, 12:10 AM
I personally would use a 43** type steel you want high impact, the tolerance's want to be really close and the seal surface wants to be polished. You might want to try and find out why it broke, look at the break carefully and see if you can figure why it broke, there may be enough wear on the rotor to make unbalanced.

wierdscience
11-25-2012, 01:04 AM
Those shafts are usually induction hardened 1050 or 1095 steel,not exactly something that can be done in the homeshop.Once you have the motor apart you may find they have neelde or roller bearings running right on the hardened shaft further complicating the situation.

Is there any way to modify the machine so the rotor rides on it's own set of bearings and could be driven by an off the self Hyd motor through a coupling?That would eliminate the need for the special motor shaft and $$$ motor.

KiloBravo
11-25-2012, 09:25 AM
I personally would use a 43** type steel you want high impact, the tolerance's want to be really close and the seal surface wants to be polished. You might want to try and find out why it broke, look at the break carefully and see if you can figure why it broke, there may be enough wear on the rotor to make unbalanced.

The reason it broke was I sucked up a large branch under the leaves and it jammed the impellor.

KiloBravo
11-25-2012, 09:27 AM
Yes, it has two sets of roller bearings riding right on the shaft.

A guy posted on a tractor forum that his broke the same way and he had a machine shop make him one and it was still going strong 3 years later. He did not give any details on how it was made just that he disassembled the motor and took the shaft to the machine shop.

KiloBravo
11-25-2012, 09:29 AM
This is it.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8060/8217361754_d0c1fa2157_h.jpg

KiloBravo
11-25-2012, 09:41 AM
I do not have the motor apart yet, but I think it broke right where the number 9 arrow is pointing on the picture.
I talked to a dealer and he said it was steel, but I swear it looks like cast iron on the break. It almost looks like the shaft from the motor has an insert over top of it and that part goes in the impellor. I have not seen any shaft failure so I really have no clue but that's what it looks like.

wierdscience
11-25-2012, 10:44 AM
I do not have the motor apart yet, but I think it broke right where the number 9 arrow is pointing on the picture.
I talked to a dealer and he said it was steel, but I swear it looks like cast iron on the break. It almost looks like the shaft from the motor has an insert over top of it and that part goes in the impellor. I have not seen any shaft failure so I really have no clue but that's what it looks like.

That sounds like a typical induction hardened shaft break.The outer 1/8" or so will be hard and show a finer grain appearance while the center will appear coarse and grainy like cast ion.
The fact they have the roller bearings running right on the shaft is also a dead giveaway.

Any chance we can get a picture once it's apart?

amateur
11-25-2012, 10:53 AM
Would regular hydraulic chrome plated shaft work in this application ?

radkins
11-25-2012, 11:03 AM
What's the brand of that motor? Hydro motors are almost always just an "off the shelf" item and several brands of motors may make a direct replacement for a fraction of the quoted price from a dealer. I build various types of farm equipment and I buy most of my motors from Surplus Center and I have gotten some real d(s)teals from E-Bay. Unless that thing has some kind of odd-ball shaft it can most likely be replaced for much lower cost than buying from an equipment dealer.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/error.asp


Apparently the site is down for maintenance today but check these guys out they may have what you need at substantial savings, they have a really good tech dept that is just a phone call away and they can often answer questions about non-standard applications or even parts they may not have listed on the site or their printed catalog.

Willy
11-25-2012, 02:45 PM
I believe the point that makes your Ingersoll hyd. motor unique is that it appears to have a longer than standard threaded shaft.

Radkins brings up some good points about most of these motors being fairly standard off the shelf items but sometimes a proprietary application will be unique. Still have a look at his link when it's up again as these motors are not very expensive, and they are new.

Here are two other options to think about
You could use a standard motor by either fabricating an extension to a standard motor's shaft or by by using a Lovejoy coupling between a standard motor and the impeller. If you choose the last route you will of course need to fabricate an independent mount for the impeller itself so that it is supported by it's own bearings rather than those on the motor.

Black Forest
11-25-2012, 02:49 PM
If it was my machine I would change the design so there is something between the hydraulic motor shaft and the impeller that would give before breaking the shaft.

Good luck with fixing the shaft. These types of things can really get aggravating.

KiloBravo
11-25-2012, 03:44 PM
Here is a good picture of the unit from Ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ingersoll-Hydraulic-Motor-C33108-33108-/110933604361

Apparently it is made by Haldex Hydraulics from Rockford IL.

Yes, the shaft is long. The piece that broke off is 3.4 inches.

KiloBravo
11-26-2012, 08:12 PM
pic1
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8488/8222780908_1ea2c57e1f_z.jpg
pic2
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8341/8221705059_665a74fbec_z.jpg

KiloBravo
11-26-2012, 08:15 PM
pic3
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8339/8222780482_1df1891a70.jpg
pic4
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8202/8222780626_e45cd12afc.jpg

wierdscience
11-27-2012, 09:38 AM
Definately induction hardened,they also put no radius in the shoulder which didn't help any.

If it's a Haldex pump/motor,then it's got to be a small one and it's definately a custom length shaft.

It might be possible to use the standard length shaft pump which can be had for $200 or less and make a shrink on shaft adapter to mimic the extended section on yours.

Give me a chance to dig through some Haldex books at work and see what I can find,might be easier than we think.

mark61
11-27-2012, 04:17 PM
I make replacement hydro-motor shafts and other parts. We use 4340. Never know what the life span will be but it ussually is long enough in the industrial enviroment that they can order a replacement so go ahead and make it your self. At the worst going to cost you a little coin and time.

mark61

wierdscience
11-27-2012, 06:40 PM
Looking at Haldex's product line today,the GC series of pump/motors on this catalog page should be the same as yours,except for the shaft.They are about 2/3 the way down the page.

http://baileynet.com/hydraulics/bailey_hydraulics_other_products/?productcategory=1000008

No help from them on the shaft,but like I mentioned earlier it might be possible to buy a new pump and shrink fit an extension on it.

KiloBravo
12-17-2012, 01:44 PM
So, I have the rough shape of the shaft made out of 4340. I made a few minor mistakes but not on anything critical. I still have to cut the square key way and the woodruf key slot. But, I wanted to ask a question. What tolerance do I need for the part of the shaft that rides on the needle bearings ? What type of finish is needed on that ? My plan is to turn that between centers on my SB H10 lathe. The diamenter is 0.5030" right now. The best I can determine on the original shaft is 0.5000" +0.0000 / -0.0010. If I can hit 0.4990" is that close enough for this type of work ?

Thanks !

wierdscience
12-17-2012, 02:02 PM
So, I have the rough shape of the shaft made out of 4340. I made a few minor mistakes but not on anything critical. I still have to cut the square key way and the woodruf key slot. But, I wanted to ask a question. What tolerance do I need for the part of the shaft that rides on the needle bearings ? What type of finish is needed on that ? My plan is to turn that between centers on my SB H10 lathe. The diamenter is 0.5030" right now. The best I can determine on the original shaft is 0.5000" +0.0000 / -0.0010. If I can hit 0.4990" is that close enough for this type of work?

Thanks !

.500 -.000/+.5005 the finish needs to be just as high a polish as you can get.If your already at .503 I would suggest file and emery cloth to size.Finishing up with 320grit paper and oil.

KiloBravo
12-20-2012, 10:28 AM
Well with file and 400 and 600 grit paper, I hit 0.499 it feels a slight bit looser in the bearings than the original shaft. I think I went a 1/2 a thou to far.
I hope to cut the straight keyway and woodruff keyway tonight and reassemble it over the weekend.
As I said before it is for my leaf collection/shredder on my mower. If it lasts an hour that would be good.

If I get bored I will make another one over the winter.

Someone sent me a link to a company they use to make shafts so I may get a quote to compare. It has to be less than the $800 the dealer wants.

KiloBravo
12-24-2012, 09:40 AM
Made a few mistakes, hopefully nothing critical.

The woodruff key is misplaced by half the diameter of the key.

Also, if you see where the original shaft broke, I cut too deep for some reason.
That is right where the oil seal rides on the shaft, but I am pretty sure the seal will be above that. It should be OK.

I used 400 and 600 grit paper to try and polish where the needle bearings and oil seal ride on the shaft. Hopefully, I will get it assembled and working in the next few days.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8219/8304130752_0df4e050bb_b.jpg