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Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 10:30 AM
Hi Folks,
I got myself a lathe milling attachment, being the dope that I am though, its about half the size of what I wanted.... Should have read the fine print in the add... :o
In any event I am going to make a plate to adapt it to my King/grizzly 10x22 cross slide so I can play with it while I hunt for one thats the proper size.
Here is what I am planning on doing, any advice or suggestions would be appreciated:
1) Buy a piece of 5" diameter x 1" thick round stock for the plate
2) machine the bottom face of the plate so its true
3) I need a 1/2" tall nipple to extend into the recess in the bottom of the milling attachment, I plan on machining the plate down leaving the nipple in the centre to connect to the attachment.
4) Drill the holes in base plate to mate with the T-bolts in the cross slide
Thats about it!
Here is what the bottom of the milling attachment looks like, it has 2 set screws that secure it to the nipple on the adapter plate. Does anybody have a baseplate that this vice is from? Perhaps you could measure it or send me a pic of it if so? I am thinking I will leave an 1/8" ridge around the top of the nipple so the vise wont fall off when the set screws are loose?
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121205-00008.jpg
Here is what my cross slide looks like, just a plate with T-slots in it:
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121205-00009.jpg
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121205-00010.jpg

Am I going about this the right way? Or is there a better way to mount it?
My other idea was to use a piece of the 5/8" plate that I have here for the base plate and then make the nipple out of some bar stock and thread it into the base plate, I figured this would not be as rigid as making it out of one piece of steel though...
Any advice or input for this rookie would be appreciated!
Cheers,
Jon

JCHannum
12-06-2012, 10:46 AM
The spigot on the Atlas cross slide is an inverted sort of round dovetail. The mounting grub screws bear on hardened steel pieces with a mating angle to draw the vise down as it is tightened. You might have the proper pieces with the vise.

Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 11:00 AM
The spigot on the Atlas cross slide is an inverted sort of round dovetail. The mounting grub screws bear on hardened steel pieces with a mating angle to draw the vise down as it is tightened. You might have the proper pieces with the vise.
I see, that makes sense... I have tried to search for the dimensions of the spigot unsuccessfully. I will take apart the vise later and see if the fitting is the same, thanks for the tip!
Cheers,
Jon

Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 11:06 AM
Would hardening that piece be something that's feasible at the home shop?
I seem to remember reading about some simple hardening methods in my old Foxfire books that were pretty strait forward with the use of an open forge... I dont have a forge but I do have oxy/acetylene torches... :)
Cheers,
Jon

achtanelion
12-06-2012, 12:03 PM
That looks like it's from an atlas 618. If so, I can confirm that the spigot for the vise on the milling attachment is the same as the spigot on the cross slide that the milling attachment attaches to. (is it just me or does that sentence sound clumsy?) I'd suggest getting a piece of durabar to make your adapter with. I found it quite easy to make the spigot in durabar, since the swarf is like dust and it cuts smoothly and easily.

I can't tell if the little locking pins are in there or not. Try running the grub screws all the way in and see if they push them out. If not, I'd just make replacements out of drill rod. Turn to the minor diameter of the grub screws (can't remember off the top of my head what it is), torch harden(heat to non magnetic and quench), then grind the angle in on a bench grinder. A pin vise will hold them well for grinding.

HTH,

J

Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 12:50 PM
Thanks!
If there were pins for the set screws they are gone now...
I just called the local metal supermarket and they don't have any Durabar. They do have something called "01 brown stock"? He said its tool steel and it would cost me 22 bucks for a 5"x1" thick slice of it. Would this be OK to use, and harden?
Cheers,
Jon

JCHannum
12-06-2012, 01:01 PM
Here's a link to a cross slide on eBay that shows the spigot. It is the diameter and height of the recess in the base of the milling attachment. The "dovetail" starts at the bottom of the tapped hole and is probably at a 60* angle.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-ATLAS-10-LATHE-CROSS-SLIDE-ASSEMBLY-AND-SHIM-NICE-SHAPE-10-301-/170947497851?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cd43cf7b

Cast iron is a good material for the spigot, the pins are hardened.

George Bulliss
12-06-2012, 01:12 PM
For help in finding cast iron: This is a quote from Michael Ward’s scraping article that ran in The Home Shop Machinist magazine, starting in the May/June 2011 issue. Michael lives in the Toronto area and this quote describes his solution for a local source of cast iron.

“Terra Nova Cast Iron and Steel in Mississauga Ontario has perhaps the best stock of this material in Canada and they will deal with individual’s orders. They are a good bunch to deal with but call ahead, they cater more to industry and aren't set up for walk in traffic.”

Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 01:28 PM
Thanks!
So the "01 brown stock" is no good then eh... I found a place I can get Durabar at (http://www.goldentrianglesteel.com) and its only about 15 minutes from me, they want 23 bucks for a 5x1" slice. Can I machine that stuff with HSS?
So am I correct in my understanding that just the pins are hardened and the durabar cast iron is hard enough as is for the base plate / spigot?
Cheers,
Jon

achtanelion
12-06-2012, 01:30 PM
Hmm... can't help you on the durabar, since I buy mine from metals supermarket. My preference would be for cast iron, but O1 would be great for the pins. Try asking for cast iron bar maybe? That's what durabar is. It's just a trade name for continuous cast cast iron bar. I've got a bit of a love/hate thing going with it. It machines beautifully (comparable in my mind to C360 brass) but the swarf can be abrasive and gets everywhere.

J

Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 01:38 PM
Please keep in mind that if my questions seem retarded, its likely cause they are! I am lower then a machinist's first week apprentice when it comes to experience. :D
I am an electrician and am just getting into this whole machining/metal working thing....
A couple years ago I learned how to weld so I could make a biodiesel reactor, that was my very first foray into metal working and now it continues :D
Here are some pics of my biodiesel plant where I cut my teeth on welding/fabrication if anybody is interested...
http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?t=743

Cheers,
Jon

Jon Heron
12-06-2012, 01:40 PM
Hmm... can't help you on the durabar, since I buy mine from metals supermarket. My preference would be for cast iron, but O1 would be great for the pins. Try asking for cast iron bar maybe? That's what durabar is. It's just a trade name for continuous cast cast iron bar. I've got a bit of a love/hate thing going with it. It machines beautifully (comparable in my mind to C360 brass) but the swarf can be abrasive and gets everywhere.

J
OK, I found durabar, so I should be careful to clean up the swarf ASAP when I am done then?
Cheers,
Jon

smudgemo
12-06-2012, 03:33 PM
Jon,

My milling attachment didn't come with the necessary pins either. If yours is the same piece as mine, it should be labeled 10-501 on the back. If not, these dimensions may not apply. My lathe is a 12x36.
My locking screws are 3/8"-16 and the pins are 5/16". Mine came with one short pin and two shorter screws than were in the compound, so initially I had to swap the one useful set back and forth when switching attachments. So I simply bought a length of 5/16" drill rod and cut/ground a second set that were long enough to work with the shorter screws. If you don't have some suitable way to hold the drill rod, grind the tip, then cut off your length.
You can see a picture of one here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/smudgemo/8250893880/
The second photo in the stream shows the back end of the pin and why you don't want the screw pushing up against the spigot.

If the sizes for mine are not the same as yours, the general design looks to be.

-Ryan

achtanelion
12-06-2012, 05:10 PM
I knew I knew your handle from somewhere. Don't worry about experience, I got most of mine from making mistakes.

Durabar machines great with HSS, but you might need to sharpen again after you get through the crust on it.

Lay a cloth on your ways before you start machining (old sheets from value village work great). I usually moisten it with way lube first so the swarf sticks better. Use your 4 jaw if you can, it's good practice indicating in odd shapes (and some durabar can get pretty odd) and it's a LOT easier to take apart the 4 jaw and clean the swarf out after you're done turning.

Check with the supplier how much it'll be for 2", 3" etc. Sometimes there's a significant component of the price that's a cut fee. Their saw cuts are almost guaranteed not to be straight, so you'll lose a little to facing, and if you're anything like me a little more when screw up the spigot the first time and have to re-do. It's also really handy to have a piece that's just there for the chuck to hold on to.

The way I'd approach this is:

1) Chuck up the piece, face and clean up the OD.

2) Coat the OD with layout fluid, then scribe (or turn) the length (+ a bit) of the spigot. (BTW, a sharpie makes great hobo layout fluid, but you'll want some dykem or something eventually.)

3) Turn the spigot to diameter and a little over length by pointing your cutting tool slightly towards the headstock, feed the length then feed outwards the full depth.

4) Use a parting tool to cut a relief just ahead the shoulder of the spigot for your cutting tool to go into.

5) Use the compound to feed in at the correct angle for the spigot (I believe it's 60deg, but measure yourself please, I'm just going by my too falliable memory).

6) Face to length and chamfer the end of the spigot.

Don't forget to measure and test fit along the way.

Don't rely too much on what I say, I'm an amateur too. Look at the job, the setup, and the tool and figure out if it's going to work or need adjustment.

HTH, and welcome to a great hobby. It'll spend up everything your save using bio and more. :-)

J

sasquatch
12-06-2012, 05:17 PM
Jon, nice work on your'e biodiesel tank. Looks good!

RussZHC
12-06-2012, 05:26 PM
then make the nipple out of some bar stock and thread it into the base plate,

I've never spent the time to really inspect but I think my Sheldon maybe some degree of press fit or perhaps press and pin? Just sayin', certainly not one piece, not only can you see the edge but the "grain" goes about 90 degrees opposite. Given the shape of that spigot (though round, sort of wedge in profile) I have wondered if one could put enough pressure on it through the pins to get it to move [I doubt it but if I had another beat up one, would just be interested to see if...]

Jon Heron
12-07-2012, 09:37 AM
Great stuff guy's, much appreciated!
Ryan, your vise is the size I was trying to get, after I bid on the 6" version on ebay I realized it was half the size I wanted.... DOH!
I think I have a line on the proper sized one now but I am still going to make the adapter plate for this one, it will be good practice for the plate I will need to make for the bigger one anyways... :D
Thanks yeti! I put allot of thought and work into that beast! Now I can brew 1425 litres at a time which gives me more free time for other things... like machining and tinkering! ;)
Cheers,
Jon

smudgemo
12-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Be sure to post photos of your adapter plate. I had thought about making one for a project floating around my mind.

Jon Heron
12-19-2012, 04:35 PM
OK, I picked up a couple slabs of 5"x1.25" Durabar cast iron.
The stuff looks pretty rough on the outside, must have been sitting in the yard for awhile...
I am going to try and machine this over the holidays and I thought I would ask a couple newb questions first. :p

achtanelion, I just need to clear up a couple things I am not understanding from your post.
For point 3)- are you saying I should start at the OD of the spigot and machine towards the OD of the plate, instead of feeding from the OD of the plate to the OD of the spigot? If so, what is the reason for this?
4) I am not quite understanding what your saying there. Do I need to make a groove at the base of the spigot?
Here is how I have the process laid out in my head, please shoot holes in it at will :D
1) chuck up piece and get it as square to the ways as I can.
2) turn the OD down as close to the chuck jaws as I can to clean it up, then face it
3) mark the depth of the spigot on the OD so I know where to stop machining.
4) Find the centre of the piece and mark the OD of the spigot so I know where to stop machining.
5) Figure out the taper on the spigot, if it is 60 degrees then I assume I should set the compound at 30 and cut the taper... this is where things get fuzzy... what is the procedure for properly cutting this? Here is what I am thinking, based on no experience whatsoever:
Lock the saddle in place with the tool at the start of the outer edge of the taper and feed the tool in with the compound to the bottom of the spigot, then feed in with the cross slide and repeat until I get to the correct depth? How does that sound? I plan on grinding a HSS bit for this as I don't think any of my carbide tipped tools are the right shape....
Any advice would be appreciated!
OH ya, What RPM should I run the spindle at? I have it set pretty slow right now, 150rpm I think, will that be fine?
Cheers,
Jon
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/pucks.jpg

achtanelion
12-19-2012, 05:44 PM
achtanelion, I just need to clear up a couple things I am not understanding from your post.
For point 3)- are you saying I should start at the OD of the spigot and machine towards the OD of the plate, instead of feeding from the OD of the plate to the OD of the spigot? If so, what is the reason for this?

If you cant your tool in the toolpost with the tip slightly towards the headstock you can feed towards the headstock while turning down the diameter of the spigot and then feed outwards in a facing operation until your tool is clear of the workpiece. It's just a cheat I'd use to get a nice finish on both the spigot and the face at right angles to it. I have no idea whether it's accepted practice or not. but it works for me.


4) I am not quite understanding what your saying there. Do I need to make a groove at the base of the spigot?

That's right. When you're turning the taper it's always easier to have a groove for the tool to run into rather than having to get it dead on everytime. You might want to face the bottom of the groove after you've turned the taper, for neatness sakes, but I don't believe it's critical.


Here is how I have the process laid out in my head, please shoot holes in it at will :D
1) chuck up piece and get it as square to the ways as I can.
2) turn the OD down as close to the chuck jaws as I can to clean it up, then face it
3) mark the depth of the spigot on the OD so I know where to stop machining.

If you make the spigot a little over-long, you can always face it to length in a later operation. If you make it under-long, things get a little trickier.


4) Find the centre of the piece and mark the OD of the spigot so I know where to stop machining.

Make sure to measure along the way. In fact if you scribe your layout line a little over-large, and then sneak up on the finished size a few thou at a time, measuring as you go, you're more likely to hit dead on size. Don't use carbide to sneak up, use HSS. Carbide (generally) likes a deeper cut.


5) Figure out the taper on the spigot, if it is 60 degrees then I assume I should set the compound at 30 and cut the taper... this is where things get fuzzy... what is the procedure for properly cutting this? Here is what I am thinking, based on no experience whatsoever:
Lock the saddle in place with the tool at the start of the outer edge of the taper and feed the tool in with the compound to the bottom of the spigot, then feed in with the cross slide and repeat until I get to the correct depth? How does that sound? I plan on grinding a HSS bit for this as I don't think any of my carbide tipped tools are the right shape....

I wouldn't use carbide for anything except ripping off the outer skin of the durabar, and that's just cause I have some cheap and not so cheerful inserts I don't mind using up. Cast iron in general machines so easily once you get past the skin that sharp HSS is the order of the day. The tool you grind will have to have a less than 60 degree angle for a 60 degree taper. This is where having some space for the bit to run in to (the groove from the parting tool) comes in handy.


Any advice would be appreciated!
OH ya, What RPM should I run the spindle at? I have it set pretty slow right now, 150rpm I think, will that be fine?
Cheers,
Jon
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/pucks.jpg

I have to admit I usually set speeds and feeds by feel. If I'm getting chatter, change something (often speeding up or increasing feed will help, which is somewhat counterintuitive).

If you have skype, PM me and I can show you some sketches that might explain what I'm talking about better than I can with words.

J

Jon Heron
12-19-2012, 10:13 PM
Thanks man! I think I get it now...
I got the OD faced, end faced, pattern laid out and started roughing it out when the fricken lathe motor died... :mad:
It was getting late anyways so I shut her down for tonight. Could be the motor has a thermal overload that croaked... I will figure it out tomorrow night...
Cheers,
Jon

achtanelion
12-19-2012, 10:56 PM
That's always a bummer, just when things are rolling along. Keep us updated on the build.

J

vpt
12-20-2012, 07:46 AM
Nice attachment! Looks like everyone chimed in on the atlas mount and your on your way. I'm just subscribing.

Jon Heron
12-22-2012, 10:32 AM
I made allot of progress last night. I got the taper done and the vise fits on very nicely, its even got a tighter tolerance then the original.

http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121221-00037.jpg

I took me awhile to get the bit ground properly but once I got it right, it cut like butter. I dont yet have a parting tool so I did it without the groove, I can certainly see now how this would help though. I set the compound at 60 degrees, put a c clamp on the ways to make sure I moved the saddle back to the same spot each time and then started cutting the taper by advancing the compound screw and moving the saddle towards the headstock. Is that the correct way, or is there a trick to this?
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121221-00042.jpg

It fits!!!
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121221-00044.jpg

I cut the reliefs to match the ones on the vice.
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121222-00046.jpg

I was so sure I was going to screw up the first attempt that I got the pucks cut way too thick, now its going to take ALLOT of machining to bring that base plate down to about a half an inch... The stuff is very dusty and hot chips fly everywhere, including one up my nose... lol
How deep of a cut should I be able to take? It seems I can only take about a 16th off at a time, and even then it really works hard as the cutter approaches the centre of the piece. Is that normal?
I am beginning to think I need to tear down the machine head and motor for a tune up and a facial...
Hopefully I will get a chance to make and harden the pins tonight.
I have learned allot already, especially the fact that I have an awful lot to learn! From bit grinding to proper angle measuring and set up, etc.... good stuff..
Cheers,
Jon

Toolguy
12-22-2012, 11:42 AM
That's a good looking project Jon!;) It looks like you are on track to be a pretty good machinist.
You might think about making a counter bore in the back side so when you are turning that down you don't have to go all the way to center.
I do that whenever I can using a carbide tool, with those if you go a little past center, the material is going up not down and can chip a piece out of the cutting edge.

ML_Woy
12-22-2012, 12:05 PM
The part you have is made for an Atlas lathe and mounts on the compound. The dimensions of the mount are as follows:

Total height of mount: .594"
Diameter of mount: 1.49"
Depth ofUpper lip, before dove tail: .133
Depth of Lower Lip, below dove tail: 137"
Depth of Dovetail at bottom of cut: 1.15"
Kind of look at the picture of the base as posted and you can see how these dimensions lay out.
The dovetail accepts the 5/16" dowel pin.

Hope this helps.

achtanelion
12-22-2012, 04:16 PM
Looking good Jon! For cutting the taper, I'd have set over the compound, locked the carriage to the ways, and used the cross feed to control depth of cut. Basically set the compound back to minimum extension, and line up with where you want the final taper to start. Wind out the cross feed until you can extend the compound and have the bit touch the end of the workpiece that's perpendicular to the ways. Make a note of what the compound feed collar reads. Bring back the compound a touch, and move the cross feed in. Make a shallow cut on the taper using the compound, until the compound feed dial reads the number you made not of earlier. Back of cross feed a touch, bring back your compound, then move the cross feed a little further in than you did before. Cut again. Keep going till you're done. (it's bad practice to let your toolbit contact the work when returning from a cut)

I'd leave the base thick like that, and try it out (after facing the backside and drilling mounting holes etc). It's always easier to remove a little excess metal than to add back what you shouldn't have cut off in the first place. That's just me though.

J

Jon Heron
12-23-2012, 08:38 PM
Thanks folks!
I am almost done now, I made and hardened the pins and am now ready to make the finish cuts for the base. I ended up facing it till it was 1" thick, better looking at it then for it :D
I intend to cut some reliefs in the base to make it more stable, is there a best practice for this? I am thinking I will just mimic whats on the vice mount and leave a couple .5" wide rings for the mounting surface?
ML_Woy, Thanks! Those are the dimensions for the attachment that I would like to have... I mistakenly bid on this vice which is for a 6" Atlas lathe before I realized it was a size too small for my 10" lathe. :( These pins are 3/16"
I am making the adapter though anyways, it will give me something to play with while I search for the right size unit and besides I needed the practice!
Cheers,
Jon

RussZHC
12-23-2012, 09:11 PM
Nice!

Did you end up getting the Durabar as per post # 9? A local supplier is listed as having Durabar but often I have found its more that they can get it...who knows how long or at what actual cost.

Gotta love working with cast iron like that...only done it once or twice for back plates...find it odd how cast seems to find its way to upper body, "mystery" steel seems to aim for lower arms/hands ;)

Jon Heron
12-31-2012, 09:25 AM
Yep, 5" Durabar cast iron round stock. I got it at http://www.goldentrianglesteel.com/ in Cambridge Ontario. They had it in stock too, I gave them my credit card number over the phone and they had the 2 pucks cut and ready to go when I got there. I think each puck was around 20 bucks.The service was good!
In hind sight, when I build the base for the proper sized attachment (when I find one) I will use square stock so I can use 4 bolts to fasten it to the cross slide instead of 2.
I may end up getting the kit for the cross slide with the T slots in it that you posted in the other thread Russ (http://statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/MLA-5.html), I can see that being much more versatile for bolting up work....
The adapter for this little vise came out pretty good though, I just need to go buy, or make some longer T bolts so I can try it out...
Here is the plate with the 2 hardened pins I made sitting on their angled side.
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121230-00057.jpg
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121230-00058.jpg
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20121230-00059.jpg
Cheers,
Jon

achtanelion
12-31-2012, 12:54 PM
Looks great Jon!

Jon Heron
01-04-2013, 10:41 AM
I picked up some T-bolts and took it for a spin!
It is considerably more rigid then the compound slide, I am going to need to address that eventually and scrape/renew the cross slide and the compound, its pretty clapped out...
While machining the 5" puck the face was coming out convex about .002 over 2.5"... not good, but that's another story!
I am making flats!
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20130103-00073.jpg
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20130103-00077.jpg
I was given this insert style tool holder but it needs a 32nd taken off the bottom to get the insert on centre with my tool post. The insert holder must be hard as hell though as I only got about 3/4 of it done before the 4 flute HSS endmill got so dull it was polishing rather then cutting... Is there anyway to sharpen an endmill?
Also what speed should I be running the endmill's at? I have the spindle set to 300RPM now.
I think I will finish the insert holder on the grinder lol....
http://theherons.ca/downloads/pics/lathe/Centre%20Wellington-20130103-00079.jpg
Next project will be an ER40 collet chuck.
Cheers,
Jon