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Sun God
12-10-2012, 07:50 AM
I'm fixin' to replace the out of square 4" chicom, non hold-down milling vise I have. After finally getting my (atrocious) RF45 clone relatively accurately trammed, I have realised it's the biggest thing stopping me from making accurate parts on the mill, because no matter how much mallet is applied, the part still rises.

Kurt or Glacern, while at the top of my list, aren't options. The local prices on Kurt are extortion, and the shipping price to the antipodes for a Glacern vise is the same as the vise itself.

I think, my two real options are
a) take another gamble on a chicom 6" Kurt clone off ebay
b) get a 4" screwless/toolmakers vise for half the cost of the Kurt clone.

I'm generally not concerned about vise capacity, I only really need a 4" vise.

So what do you guys think? Is there any reason to avoid the screwless type vises for milling?

J Tiers
12-10-2012, 08:08 AM
Not for every application, but a piece of round stock between the offending jaw and the part will allow the jaw to rise while the part stays down. It is best if the round stock and part are hard enough that there are no indents produced.

Ian B
12-10-2012, 08:16 AM
A rising travelling jaw is indeed a pita. Is the fixed jaw square? If so, as a stop-gap until you get a better vise, try a loose plate between the travelling jaw and the work. A flat strip, almost horizontal, one edge on the work, the other on the travelling jaw, the jaw contact line a little higher than the work contact line. Then, even when the jaw rises, the plate still clamps the work, and also gives some downforce.

Ian

Mcgyver
12-10-2012, 08:18 AM
So what do you guys think? Is there any reason to avoid the screwless type vises for milling?

by that do you mean a grinding vise? like this http://www.abmtools.com/images/Vices_and_Clamps/Precision_Grinding_VIse.jpg

they don't have the same holding power and imo would be very frustrating to use - adjustment is a pita and the mill vise gets used all the time.

If you can't get a good one, make good with what you have. Using hold downs takes away much of the advantage of the kurt style and if its out of square, make it square. Ginder if you've got it or lapping or shims. It's not ideal but thats what we do; figuring out how to make the less than ideal work.

what part of the globe are you at?

Jaakko Fagerlund
12-10-2012, 08:56 AM
Out of square in what direction? If it is the fixed jaw, well, mill it straight.

And use a piece of round bar between the part and the moving jaw as suggested, then the jaw raising up doesn't lift the part or at least the mallet works. And this way the part really rests against the fixed jaw, making it possible to produce square workpieces as per intented.

bob308
12-10-2012, 09:05 AM
sometimes in life you have to bellyup to the bar and pay the price. i have 2 enco lock down vises one a 4" the other a 5". they were good then i ground them and now they a real good. they get used on my enco 9x42 mill and my big burke harazonal mill. i picked up a brown and sharp 4" that i use on my clausing 8520.

Ian B
12-10-2012, 09:40 AM
Bob's probably right - but before you do hand the cash over, is there anything that you can do to find why the jaw is lifting, such as refit the gib strips? A bit of milling & fitting might get you a long way.

Ian

mygrizzly1022
12-10-2012, 10:46 AM
Hi All


Some good info here ...may be of some use

Regards....... Bert

http://www.docsmachine.com/projects/4vise/4vise-01.html

Sun God
12-10-2012, 06:29 PM
Out of square in what direction? If it is the fixed jaw, well, mill it straight.

And use a piece of round bar between the part and the moving jaw as suggested, then the jaw raising up doesn't lift the part or at least the mallet works. And this way the part really rests against the fixed jaw, making it possible to produce square workpieces as per intented.

The fixed jaw is square to the vise ways, but the bottom of the vise is not square to the ways. It is off, left to right (parallel to the jaw) at least a thou over the 4 inches. Don't know if i'm being overly pedantic there but it is irritating.


Hi All


Some good info here ...may be of some use

Regards....... Bert

http://www.docsmachine.com/projects/4vise/4vise-01.html

Exactly the kind of stuff I was worrying about when thinking of buying a chicom Kurt clone. And typifies all the stuff wrong with chinese tools. Scary. I'd prefer not to have to spend hours fixing a vise if I buy one, the idea is to use it to get work done, not it generate work. Thanks for sharing the link.


sometimes in life you have to bellyup to the bar and pay the price. i have 2 enco lock down vises one a 4" the other a 5". they were good then i ground them and now they a real good. they get used on my enco 9x42 mill and my big burke harazonal mill. i picked up a brown and sharp 4" that i use on my clausing 8520.

I would gladly buy the Glacern, or even the Kurt, if the prices here were fair. The local price for the Kurt 4" is close to double the US retail, and to ship a $220 Glacern 4-inch here, as best I could tell, was going to cost $220 to ship to Sydney.


Bob's probably right - but before you do hand the cash over, is there anything that you can do to find why the jaw is lifting, such as refit the gib strips? A bit of milling & fitting might get you a long way.

Ian

It's worth a look, but I don't think I can cure the tilt.


by that do you mean a grinding vise? like this http://www.abmtools.com/images/Vices_and_Clamps/Precision_Grinding_VIse.jpg

they don't have the same holding power and imo would be very frustrating to use - adjustment is a pita and the mill vise gets used all the time.

If you can't get a good one, make good with what you have. Using hold downs takes away much of the advantage of the kurt style and if its out of square, make it square. Ginder if you've got it or lapping or shims. It's not ideal but thats what we do; figuring out how to make the less than ideal work.

what part of the globe are you at?

In Australia. Basically the only local machine tool supplier of note (Hare and Forbes) only stocks their in-house brand chinese manufactured everything. Every time I buy from them I am disappointed by the quality of the product, for the price they charge. I try to avoid buying from them on principle, but for some items, they are the only horse in town.


Not for every application, but a piece of round stock between the offending jaw and the part will allow the jaw to rise while the part stays down. It is best if the round stock and part are hard enough that there are no indents produced.

Have used this before, and it does help, but thanks for the suggestion. I have avoided the problem mostly by doing just that but recently have had to do some work supported by parallels where there just isnt enough clamping space on the jaw to fit a bar between.


A rising travelling jaw is indeed a pita. Is the fixed jaw square? If so, as a stop-gap until you get a better vise, try a loose plate between the travelling jaw and the work. A flat strip, almost horizontal, one edge on the work, the other on the travelling jaw, the jaw contact line a little higher than the work contact line. Then, even when the jaw rises, the plate still clamps the work, and also gives some downforce.

Ian

Think I get what you're getting at, thanks for the advice.

MasterMaker
12-10-2012, 07:01 PM
You can disassemble it and clamp it upside down to re-machine the underside to square up the vise ways relative to the table movement but "non hold down" can be quite a few vise designs, a picture of the kind of vise you have would help.

Is it a design that has the clamp plate underneath the center line or is a box way with gib and side plates.

If its the first then either making a longer moving jaw or/and a clamp plate that is much longer(further forward of the moving jaw face) could help quite a bit(you can do this with a sturdy drill press vise and make a quite serviceable milling vise), if it is the later then re machining the sides and underneath the sides of the ways and possibly making new clamp plates to make all mating/moving surfaces as perfect as possible could give you some improvement.
Carbide routerbits work quite well on cast iron and a large diameter grooving or keyhole bit could possibly reach without any need for "creative" clamping, provided you can remove the fixed jaw.

Sun God
12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
This is it: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-100mm-Precision-Swivel-Milling-Machine-Vise-Free-Postage-/380527067653?pt=AU_Hardware&hash=item58992e4205

Not sure what category that puts me in. Although I should have been warned off before purchase by the blanchard grinding on the ways that looks like it was done with a housebrick.

BigJohnT
12-10-2012, 07:37 PM
You might be able to remove a bit off of the bottom of the movable jaw and reduce the slop...

John

rustamd
12-10-2012, 07:42 PM
You can make some soft jaws and machine a step once bolted down. This will create accurate position until vise is moved.

MasterMaker
12-11-2012, 12:38 PM
Ouch, I actually have the same vise.

I came to the conclusion that it was somewhat of a lost cause, needing the sides/undersides of the ways re machined, new clamp plates and a new moving jaw with an adjustable side gib(not enough material to re machine the original for it)as well to make it serviceable.

I actually opted for converting a drill press vise(it was actually ok for light milling with nothing more than a re-machine underneath/inside and a much longer clamp plate) instead of trying to fix it, which served me well until I got a chinese kurt clone that only needed some minor tweaking to make serviceable.
Something like what you find a bit less than halfway down in this link
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3654.0

Or you could always make something like this http://homews.co.uk/LrgHighProEndC02.jpg
(not mine)
or thishttp://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44784/two-piece-vice-1.jpg

flylo
12-11-2012, 02:35 PM
Consider it a "casting vice kit" take it apart & machine it into a perfect working vise. You'll feel a sense of accomplishment & $$$ in your pocket.

Mike Hunter
12-15-2012, 07:18 AM
Sun God

I personally would stay away from the cheep Kurt clones, I had 3 chineese vises here in the shop, bought them thinking that I would save money. After spending quite a few hours “fixing” all the issues, I still managed to break two of them, the castings cracked.

Looking at the link to Doc’s Machine, now I know why…. No matter what you do to them… the castings are crap, paint and bondo do not make for a good vise.

Couple of thoughts; look on AU EBay for a used Kurt, or an older Bridgeport or B&S vise. Oftentimes they can be had inexpensively. Even if you have to do a little work to them, at least you know the base casting is decent.

I have a Parlec mill vise, made in Taiwan, so far very decent.