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1200rpm
12-25-2012, 03:33 PM
first of all...Merry Christmas!

i`m going to be using turcite on a lathe saddle to bring it back to original height following a bed re-grind.

is there any reason why i can`t use little fixtures like the guys using Moglice make to locate the saddle on the bedways to maintain perpendicularity of the cross-slide ways to the spindle axis?

ie- if i use the little fixtures on the ends of the saddle will the bond strength of the adhesive be compromised due to slight shrinkage of the adhesive while it cures?

hopefully this question makes sense to you guys... :)

TexasTurnado
12-25-2012, 04:42 PM
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll168/TexasTurnado/P8040040-1_zpsa846a5a0.jpg

You may do this, but you should still machine accurately for the Turcite plus adhesive thickness so the adhesive thickness is not excessive. If you use the special 3m adhesive as recommended for the Turcite, be aware it has .003 glass beads in it so the the bond layer must be at least that thick and probably should not be greater than about .005 in.

I added lock nuts to the brass screws and put scraps of Turcite under the ends of the ways along with a scrap of .003 shim stock and then adjusted the screws to just touch the ways (this was before I learned the adhesive had .003 glass beads in it). Then I checked the alignment and tweaked the screws just slightly higher to bring the saddle into perfect alignment. These scraps were then removed and the real Turcite and adhesive applied.

1200rpm
12-25-2012, 05:35 PM
thanks TT!
that`s it exactly!
FWIW, i`m using the turcite/waylock adhesive as supplied from Devitt

Richard King
12-25-2012, 09:40 PM
I would also cut it a little larger the what you need as it will creep if not captured. I have also seen where they pin it with a 1/16" nylon plug or flat head brass screw. I usually just cut the Rulon a little bigger. I use Rulon as it is the same product and is cheaper. I buy it from TriStar . You will still need to scrape it as both Rulon and Turcite only guarantee it to be +/- .003" flatness. Be sure to glue the dark and I usually scratch up the cart iron so the glue bond to it better. I have had better luck using acid-tone to degrease it then alcohol. Be sure to mark where the oil holes are. If your area is cool, you cn shine a heat lamp on it too. PM or call me if you need any other help 651-338-8141
PS: Be sure to spray some release agent on the the ways your gluing too. Some use masking tape,wax paper, plastic wrap or newspaper.

lazlo
12-25-2012, 11:23 PM
PS: Be sure to spray some release agent on the the ways your gluing too.

Important safety tip!

Merry Christmas Rich and John (and everyone else!) :) ;)

Mcgyver
12-26-2012, 12:15 AM
hopefully this question makes sense to you guys... :)

need some help there :)

The moglice works as TT showed because its soft and then sets up.....is the turcite not in solid form to start with? If so how is holding the carriage as such going to work? my understanding is moglice is 'castable' where as turcite is scraped to fit.

lazlo
12-26-2012, 12:42 AM
The glue settles out and levels the Turcite.

Not as much as a castable like Moglice, which is why Rich and John are saying that you have to machine the mating surface level before you apply the glue.

Richard King
12-26-2012, 01:51 AM
I used to sell Moglice and use it, I am very familiar with it. I use Rulon / Turcite all the time and have been applying it for over 30 yrs. Both have advantages. If your going to use the Turcite with the Moglice method of alignment I would make a dry run or 2 to get your technique down pat.

Do everything accept the glue, slide in the turcite and set it down, mae sure there is no binding, mark the locations with a Magic Marker, if your lowering it with a hoist mark the links of your chains. Have your glue and spoons ready on a clean area where your going to mix it. One for the Epoxy one for the hardener. In classes I use plastic, in the real world I use metal ones. I wear surgical gloves as the epoxy gets under your nails and a pain to clean up. I also use a clean piece of sheet metal or Plex-e-glass as a mixing board. I also use the fast dry electrical cleaner or brake cleaner to clean the metal and turcite. Be sure to clean the saddle really good, especially where the oil holes are before gluing. When the saddle or part being glued is really dirty I use a propane torch to heat the metal to wick out the oil soaked iron. Have to be careful not to get it to hot. You will see the oil come bubble out. Might take a couple of try's to get it clean.

After you apply the glue to the metal (be sure to wet the dark side of the Turcite too) I use kitchen tablespoons and putty knife to measure the glue exactly instead of eyeballing it. Rulon sends along a serrated putty knife that lets the glue disperse more evenly (same as a tile trowel) Lazlo is correct the glue has the glass beads, but lets say the V way is ground 45 deg's. but the bottom of saddle was machined 43 degree's so the gap you need to fill may be tight at one side touching the glass beads, but isn't at the other side, say it is open .007", well the glue squeezes out and dries and saves time in the scraping.

The Moglice makes a exact duplication of the surface and all you need to do is 1/2 moon it and scrape the middle low. With the Turcite you need to scrape it with bluing to get the fit after it dries, but I say it's more forgiving because if you have the alignments off you can re-scrape it. If you don't get the alignment perfect before you pour or putty with the Moglice you need to chip it off and do it again.

Good night..

Mcgyver
12-26-2012, 10:44 AM
Richard's explanation is as I thought, thanks.

I'm still left wondering how 1200's is going to use TT's moglice set up for turcite. Can't see it. Robert, you're suggesting the glue has enough gap filling ability that somehoe glue and turcite will accurately fill the void? What then holds the turcite firmly against the mating bearing surface? Have you used turcite and had success that way?

1200, if you want to go that route, and I agree it has appeal, why wouldn't you go moglice instead of turcite?

lazlo
12-26-2012, 12:36 PM
Robert, you're suggesting the glue has enough gap filling ability that somehoe glue and turcite will accurately fill the void?

Re-read Rich's explaination :)


"Lazlo is correct the glue has the glass beads, but lets say the V way is ground 45 deg's. but the bottom of saddle was machined 43 degree's so the gap you need to fill may be tight at one side touching the glass beads, but isn't at the other side, say it is open .007", well the glue squeezes out and dries and saves time in the scraping."

That's why John was jigged-up the saddle while the glue on the Turcite dried.

1200rpm
12-26-2012, 04:32 PM
sorry i didn`t answer earlier-just got home.
to answer why i didn`t choose Moglice - my understanding is the minimum thickness for Moglice is .032"(IIRC) and the minimum for Turcite is about half that...i would have to remove more cast iron to make room for the Moglice.

Mcgyver
12-26-2012, 04:52 PM
I see, thanks.

I think key to Rich's description is that it saves time in scraping....doesn't skip the scraping part like the pourable moglice. In the example given it seems the glue is pliable and gap filling but you're still not going to have a guarantee its in solid contact hence the need to scrape to finish the fit.

makes sense now.

Richard King
12-26-2012, 08:49 PM
You can buy the thin Turcite but in my 40 years of using it the thinnest I have ever used was .025" because that was the thickness Okuma Howa put on their machine. The majority of factory built machines use .047". That is why I suggest you machine some material off the bottom of the saddle so you can use the thicker material. You can use the thinner stuff, but by the time you cut in some oil grooves and scrape it it is almost worn away.

Remember when you cut in the oil grooves both Turcite and Rulon warn you not to cut through the material as this increases the chance the epoxy will fail as your exposing it to coolants and oils. I suggest you cut the groove 2/3 the thickness of the material. So if you use .015 your only going .010. Not good. To let the glue squeeze out faster I set a chuck or some heavy bars of steel on the top of the saddle. Some C-Clamp it down, but if you do, use several all over. I prefer the weights. When you scrape turcite the normal depth is .002" so no need to 1/2 moon flake it.

It's Teflon and self lubricating, but will last a long time if it's oiled and kept clean. When you scrape it you need to sharpen your blade at a steeper angle and rounder tip. Say a 20mm rad. tip and a - 12 to 20 degrees neg angle on the blade. The normal 5 deg is good for cast but bad for Turcite / Rulon.

One more note my DVD will be available to download off the internet in a few months.

TexasTurnado
12-26-2012, 10:54 PM
In the discussion above, I have not seen the importance of aligning the saddle (with apron) to the leadscrew - on both saddles I have done, the front prismatic way was not worn equally on each side. The back side tends to wear more because of the force holding the cutting tool against the work.

This means the prismatic way will probably be ground more on the backside to make it straight again and the matching backside on the saddle will also be worn more - so noticeably less needs to machined off the backside of the saddle way compared to the front. On the ones I have done, the end of the saddle way closest to the chuck is also worn more than the opposite end, resulting in the saddle actually being misaligned in both planes compared to where it should be.

The goal should be to not only machine the saddle to put it back in correct alignment wrt the ways, but to also position it correctly wrt to leadscrew. I use an alignment method that involves measuring the apron carefully for leadscrew position wrt to its front surfaces, and then transferring these to the saddle so I can determine where the saddle needs to be wrt the ways.

In the case of the Colchester, this was made easier by the fact there were small unworn portions of the original surfaces of the saddle ways left to indicate where it had been when manufactured. This allowed me to compare where the saddle should be for the leadscrew alignment to where the unworn areas indicated it was. Fortunately, the measurements agreed very well and validated the measurement method.

This proved critical on the SAG 12, as all indications of the original ways on the saddle had been worn away, and I had to rely on the measurements to calculate how much to take off each side of the prismatic way (taking into account the angle of these surfaces).

I tend to be cautious when approaching a problem like this, so I first machine off just enough metal to re-establish the saddle to be parallel to the ways in both planes, and then re-measure to decide how much more needs to be removed to put the saddle where it should be to align with the leadscrew while also being parallel to ways in both planes.

Aligning the saddle to leadscrew also aligns the pinion to the rack (presuming it was correct originally) that drives it back and forth, and thus should be carefully done to avoid having problems there at a later time....

lazlo
12-26-2012, 11:31 PM
When you scrape turcite the normal depth is .002" so no need to 1/2 moon flake it.

I'm sure you remember that, despite your warnings, I managed to mangle the Turcite using a half-moon bit on a scraper, even at the lowest setting :D

As you showed us, it's dirt simple with the half moon bit on a hand scraper...

TexasTurnado
12-26-2012, 11:55 PM
Richard's explanation is as I thought, thanks.

I'm still left wondering how 1200's is going to use TT's moglice set up for turcite. Can't see it. Robert, you're suggesting the glue has enough gap filling ability that somehoe glue and turcite will accurately fill the void? What then holds the turcite firmly against the mating bearing surface? Have you used turcite and had success that way?

1200, if you want to go that route, and I agree it has appeal, why wouldn't you go moglice instead of turcite?

Mine was not a Moglice setup - I used Turcite and it works because the gap is machined to the correct value to allow for the Turcite plus bond layer.....

TexasTurnado
12-27-2012, 12:10 AM
Instead of a push scraper, I use a pull scraper. This was made from a length of O-1, bent at 90°, and then fully hardened - it is honed to razor sharpness and, for me at least, gives much better control than a push scraper:

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll168/TexasTurnado/P8250070-1_zps83232f3e.jpg

The notches are there to give a better view of the scraping, and to clear the sharp edge of a dovetail.

Richard King
12-27-2012, 01:30 AM
Both methods work. I have used both and because I was taught to scrape forward, I push and lift out or stay in, depends on how tired I am.. As I say in my DVD, I don't care how you scrape..push, pull...as long as you can get the same results in the same amount of time...but I have a student teacher in Taiwan who can do both...he average 50 points. A lot better then needed. I would post a picture of it, but I have't figured out how on here yet.

lazlo
12-27-2012, 11:07 AM
I would post a picture of it, but I have't figured out how on here yet.

Rich, email me the picture and I'll post it.

John: the pull scraper sounds intriguing for Turcite. It tends to grab the blade and dig-in. I'll have to try that...

lazlo
12-27-2012, 07:47 PM
From Rich:

"We made one [a hook scraper] out of a round bar with a bike handle bar grip and drilled a hole in the end where we attached a 3/4" x 6" Biax power scraper blade."

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Hook%20Scraper/DSC00667_zps8298e8e5.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Hook%20Scraper/DSC00668_zps3bac43ae.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Hook%20Scraper/DSC00670_zpse9e6b977.jpg

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Hook%20Scraper/DSC00669_zps2fbb13e0.jpg

Richard King
12-27-2012, 08:47 PM
That is Ted one of my assistant teachers in Taichung Taiwan where I taught scraping classes at PMC, a Government and Machine Industry Research Center. Please note the tables we made for the class...They were adjustable height. I taught Ted to scrape using my methods, He had scraped the Japanese way prior. We used that length hook scraper and also made one with a 24" handle with worked pretty good too. We counted those points when he was down and he averaged 50 points. He scraped another and got 60 points. He also scraped some cast iron straight-edges with the Biax and got 60 points. He was a athlete too, he had played semi pro baseball so his eye hand coordination was amazing. If I ever figure out how to attach more pictures I can show you some machines PMC designed so we could teach scraping cast iron ways, Turcite coated ways and linear guide ways that each student scraped in the class. I had 2 assistant teachers (I taught to scrape) that helped me teach 12 students in a week. I taught 20 weeks of inside PMC classes and 8 weeks of plant tours were we worked as a process engineers to improve their machine building techniques. It was an amazing time. :-)

gcude
12-27-2012, 09:41 PM
Rich,

I can see the raised turcite burrs in the photos above. I don't remember how you removed the burrs in the class I attended. Did you just stone them like the cast iron or is there another method?

Richard King
12-27-2012, 11:47 PM
First thing is we clean it with the glass cleaner or it plugs the sand paper, use the edge of the "Biax Control Gage or over in Taiwan they made there own gage, to gently slide along the part to get the majority of the fuzz burr, Finally we use the sharpening stone wrapped with 300 grit sand paper to gently sand off the fuzz burrs.

We were experimenting to see how close and how many PPI we could get (points per inch). On all machines we shoot for 20 PPI with 50% (POP) Percentage of contact. We measured the depth and it averaged .002" deep.

Gary did you attend the Dallas Class? I wonder if there would be any renewed interest in having another one next year?

.RC.
12-28-2012, 12:42 AM
Does the glue you use require a minimum thickness for maximum strength?

Putting the turcite directly on the part means the glue is less then optimum thickness and thus strength...

Richard King
12-28-2012, 01:40 AM
The epoxy has glass beads in it to maintain a minimum gap of .003" But I have used it to fill old oil grooves that were 1/16" deep. The secret to the glue is cleaning the iron, sweating out the oil, sand basting scratching the surface as the Moglice people say that when you look at it our eyeballs bleed. I use the epoxy that the company recommends.

.RC.
12-28-2012, 03:03 AM
Ahh OK we cannot get the waylock glue down here...

Richard King
12-28-2012, 12:12 PM
I have also used this product for years and it doesn't have the beads. I have always estimated it at .005" thick when making my calculations.
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UF6EVsSyXTtnxfcN8z6EVtQEVs6EVs 6EVs6E666666--

I also see : http://solutions.3m.com.au/wps/portal/3M/en_AU/CMD_Markets/Home/Product_Solutions/Maintenance/Repair/Epoxy/?PC_7_RJH9U5230OVN00ICB9AHDI10P2000000_assetType=M MM_Article&PC_7_RJH9U5230OVN00ICB9AHDI10P2000000_assetId=1258 562046069&PC_7_RJH9U5230OVN00ICB9AHDI10P2000000_univid=12585 62046069

I also talked with Tri-Star who sell Rulon and they told me , and I have hd good luck using this too

Loctite
#38050 - Black Max® Instant Adhesive 380™, 1 oz Bottle


For engineering information as far a shear strength contact:
Richard Cedrone Chemical and Apprication Engineer for Tri Star Plastics. I have talked to him several times and he goes to Japan, Korea and Taiwan to show mfg's how to use his products.

rcedrone@tstar.com

lazlo
12-28-2012, 05:58 PM
Gary did you attend the Dallas Class? I wonder if there would be any renewed interest in having another one next year?

Yes, Gary was in the Dallas class! :) Yes, we'd love to have an advanced class Rich!

Richard King
12-28-2012, 06:08 PM
Hard to remember everyone. I remember you, you're hard to forget.....lol
:rolleyes: in a good way...LOL

gcude
12-28-2012, 07:16 PM
Gary did you attend the Dallas Class? I wonder if there would be any renewed interest in having another one next year?

Yes, I attend the Dallas/Arlington Class. I would really like to attend an advanced class, if my schedule would allow it. Learning is life and your teaching is as good as it gets.

1200rpm
12-29-2012, 09:26 AM
thanks for the pics and desciption of the scrapers- i have not yet scraped anything other than cast iron, and i`m a beginner at that.

i`ll glue a piece down to some scrap and try scraping it before moving to the real thing- that way i can do it in the kitchen where it`s nice and warm...:)

also, i was planning to use the .015" turcite but if it`s an advantage i can use the .032" instead and just use the .015" stuff for practice - sounds like it might be the safer way to go.

appreciate the input!

lazlo
12-29-2012, 06:22 PM
Ahh OK we cannot get the waylock glue down here...

You know Richard, Phil has a friend in the 'States, and they send stuff back and forth... :D

.RC.
12-29-2012, 07:42 PM
Ahh yes, but we use something else down here to glue Turcite/Bronze on.... ;)

Richard King
12-29-2012, 09:58 PM
Elmers?

gcude
12-29-2012, 10:03 PM
The udder brand? :)

lazlo
12-29-2012, 10:45 PM
Ahh yes, but we use something else down here to glue Turcite/Bronze on.... ;)

Yah, joking aside, I'm curious -- do you have your own version of Turcite/Rulon/Garlock... Down Under? What epoxy do you use?
Do you have to stir the epoxy counter-clockwise? :)

.RC.
12-29-2012, 11:11 PM
tsk tsk Lazlo, you never watched the video did you...

lazlo
12-29-2012, 11:34 PM
tsk tsk Lazlo, you never watched the video did you...

I did, and I still have it! It's been awhile... :)

ETA: Just watched it again: you used "Araldite" epoxy, which AFAIK, is an ordinary 2-part epoxy.

Using the boring head on a turret mill for a stirrer is classic! :D

Richard King
12-30-2012, 01:56 AM
I have a very interesting chat going on the other popular discussion group....lol under grinding ways ...it should be interesting reading for you...lol

Machtool
12-30-2012, 01:58 AM
ETA: Just watched it again: you used "Araldite" epoxy, which AFAIK, is an ordinary 2-part epoxy.
G’day Robert.

It’s not the regular hardware store variety. The one I use is Araldite K-134. Its an industrial version. Far stronger than the regular stuff.

Tech Sheet here. http://www.meury.com.au/uploads/44476809642.pdf

I think we were used K-138 at the scraping class. Its almost as good, a few N/mm lower in Tensile shear strength, but a lot cheaper. Either works. http://www.meury.com.au/uploads/300641072119.pdf

It has no fillers or spacer balls in it, I get around that by installing something an old guy in Sydney showed me about 20 years ago. An interface membrane. You and I would know that as fibre glass fly wire. The really thin one is about 6 thou bond thickness after its pressed into the Turcite somewhat.

I just took a look at the 3M Scotch Weld product that Richard linked too.

Page 3, point 8 of Directions for use.

Maximum shear strength is obtained with a 3-5 mil bond line.
I take it “mil” means thous? It seems that would benefit from having something to give it that bond / film thickness.

We did find that Industrial Araldite in the States some time ago, for someone on P.M. From memory, the agent wasn’t that responsive to dealing with a small order.


Regards Phil.

Machtool
12-30-2012, 02:53 AM
Yah, joking aside, I'm curious -- do you have your own version of Turcite/Rulon/Garlock... Down Under?
There’s a plastics company in Sydney called Unasco. They did / do a PTFE product called Unascite. Clearly a name ripped off from Turcite.

I haven’t used it in years, its like the old Turcite A. No bronze it it. I never liked it, and there was always a delay in getting it. They didn’t have it in sheet, They had to skive it off rolls. About 3 – 4 days minimum.

My mate Marko, has his own made by a plastic company in Canada. Its 60% bronze filled. Its seriously a golden / brown colour from the bronze.

But its a minimum order of about $10k to run a batch. That normally last a year or so. He brings it in wide, and cuts to order. In one thickness only 1.6mm.

We can still get fibre reinforced Bakelite. Lots of big East European machines used that. We can also get solid extra hard bronze bearing sheet. That works a treat in some applications.

There’s a new agent for Moglice. Or to be more precise, there’s a new agent for Diamant Plastics GmbH. They make a ****e load more products than just Moglice. When I spoke to them, they had nil stock and only half a clue.

Regards Phil.

I have a very interesting chat going on the other popular discussion group....lol under grinding ways ...it should be interesting reading for you...lol
P.S Richard, that’s a bit too cryptic. The boys won’t find it easily. I’d assume you mean the one over at the other place (P.M) in the Southbend forum? Someone has to stop those boys from frosting a freshly ground lathe bed.

Richard King
12-30-2012, 01:25 PM
I wrote my friend at Tristar.com and asked him if Rulon 142 can be purchased in Australia

I was afraid I would get booted if I put p.m. in a post.

beckley23
12-30-2012, 05:08 PM
I've put links in to PM, and haven't gotten the boot, yet.
Harry

Richard King
12-31-2012, 12:53 PM
Here is the info for the Australia Rulon 142 Rep.

Good morning Richard,

Please feel free to pass our representation in Australia to your customer.

Baden Prentice
General Manager
baden.p@supplyservices.co.nz

Leigh-Anne Bielby
Administration Manager
Email: leighanne@supplyservices.co.nz

Supply Services Ltd
67 Newton St
PO Box 4002
Mt Maunganui 3116
New Zealand


| Richard Cedrone | CEO | TriStar Plastics Corp. | 508.925.7450 |