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adatesman
01-06-2013, 11:56 AM
Howdy Folks,

Long story short, I've got to redo the French drain and rather than rent an undersized backhoe/loader I kept an eye on Craigslist and picked up this 1957 Case 310 for only a couple hundred more than what I'd be pay for the rental ($2600, or more amusingly $0.35 per pound). Runs pretty good and fairly well cared for, so a bit of a gloat I suppose. :)

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe1.jpg

Unfortunately on the way home an old repair on the lower swivel on the hoe snapped.

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe3.jpg

adatesman
01-06-2013, 12:06 PM
Obviously grinding it out and welding it up is the answer, but I have two options: my Lincoln 135 or this Century buzzbox that was abandoned in the garage when we bought the place:

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/welder.jpg

I'm thinking the 135 is way too small and not only have poor penetration, but would require hundreds of passes (not to mention renting a gas bottle to avoid the flux core porosity and dirty weld issues). Unfortunately I know nothing about the buzz-box, so that's a bit of a question mark as well. Should've easy enough to open up and clean out any mouse nests, then wire up and give it a try, but what type of stick to use for this and which setting? It'll do smooth AC, force AC, straight DC and reverse DC (quite a nice looking unit, and surprisingly heavy with a 100% duty cycle up to 130 amps). Oh, and looks like it'll handle rods up to 5/32".

Sorry for all the questions; been 20+ years since I touched a buzzbox.

Thx!

adatesman
01-06-2013, 12:12 PM
Oh, and only power here is in the house, so I'll need to wire up a 220V 30A circuit to run it. Unfortunately the panel's at the far side of the house, so that means a 60 foot run for it. Suggestions for wire size? It'll only be temporary, so I could splice into the stove circuit I suppose... That would knock 30 feet off the run, but no idea what size they used for it.


Btw, machining content will come this Spring when I start making all the new pins and bushings to tighten things up. :-)

adatesman
01-06-2013, 12:15 PM
Hmm... Looking at the plate on the buzzbox it says "PRI Volts 208/230. PRI Amps 80/76"

Guess the 30A circuit it was wired into was quite undersized.

Suggestions what to do? House has 100A service, stove is on a 30A breaker.

lakeside53
01-06-2013, 12:21 PM
Buy a 70 amp breaker and put it in your panel, even temporarily. You won't draw the full power unless you have the welder cranked up so it may work fine with less. Make sure it's not a three phase only welder...

If you intend to tie into the stove circuit, don't change the breaker to more than 30 without verifying the stove feed wiring size!

Mains extension cable? Probably 8 or 6awg will do it. Again, depends on what power you intend to draw. If you simply extend the stove circuit then a 10-3 will do it.

winchman
01-06-2013, 12:27 PM
I'd suggest doing the prep work yourself, and then taking it to a good welding shop to have it done with a properly rated MIG welder.

Jon Heron
01-06-2013, 01:20 PM
If it were me, I would use the buzz box with 1/8" 6011 rods.
30a may be all you need, you wont really know until you start welding and see how much current your going to need to get a good weld. I have a 40a breaker on my buzz box and I had no problems welding up my biodiesel processor and boiler (http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?t=743) with it which was a significant amount of welding...

Cheers,
Jon

Black Forest
01-06-2013, 01:27 PM
I would stick weld it with 7018 as would most welding shops. There is a reason it broke the first time. You better find the reason or it will happen again and tear up something that will cost a bunch to fix. That is if it hasn't already.

brian Rupnow
01-06-2013, 01:30 PM
Long as it will do D.C. I agree with Black Forest 7018 rod.

camdigger
01-06-2013, 01:30 PM
I'd suggest doing the prep work yourself, and then taking it to a good welding shop to have it done with a properly rated MIG welder.

Personally, I would never do that repair with mig.

Regardless of who does this repair or what process is used. Joint prep and cleanliness will be the order of the day. Almost every proces I can think of will need some kind of preheat and multipass welds.

If it were me....

I'd disassemble if at all possible. Position welds are done every day with fantastic results, but not by weekend DIYers without a lot of practice. Because you are most likely faced with a multipass weld, it makes little difference if 4 or 7 passes, so I would hook up the welder to the stove circuit as is and set the welder to 1/2 the output cuurent and try a bead on some scrap. Rated primary current is a function of max output current. 3/32" 7018, for example should be just under half the rated max output and hence half the input current (plus a few percent for inefficiencies).

Based on the above, I'd remove the part, take it to a bench, prep it, preheat it with a torch or BBQ or ..., and weld it up with a multipass weld with 3/32" 7018 keeping the welds in the flat position.

My 0.02$

Boostinjdm
01-06-2013, 01:32 PM
You're going to need two things for that fix. A power washer, and somebody that knows what they are doing.

macona
01-06-2013, 01:35 PM
MIG is fine but it should be done with something like Dual shield wire. I know a guy that does mobile heavy equipment repair and I dont think he uses stick at all. He has a 500amp diesel lincoln and a LN25 feeder.

Call someone with a mobile rig to come out and weld it up. You dont have enough power. Probably cost you a couple hundred at most. Let him do everything.

Weston Bye
01-06-2013, 01:41 PM
See if your welder has a duty cycle rating also. Cleaned, prepped and multiple passes with good penetration on each pass. You might have to let undersized supply wiring cool down between every X number of passes. If you keep an eye on all the above you can get through it and have a good weld.

brian Rupnow
01-06-2013, 01:42 PM
You're going to need two things for that fix. A power washer, and somebody that knows what they are doing.
Somebody told me that about my first girlfriend!!

rollin45
01-06-2013, 02:22 PM
Prep it properly, if you have to... read up on this, then use reverse polarity DC. For the first couple of passes use 6010. Grind these until you get clean metal again, ( don't grind the weld clear out, but grind the flux and slag out of the weld passes you have placed, then use 7018 to fill . Once you start keep going, don't quit welding until you are through. I would use 1/8" 6010, and 3/32 7018 as you don't have a lot of horsepower available.


rollin'

LKeithR
01-06-2013, 02:35 PM
Given all the things you've mentioned, my first choice would be to hire someone to do it. If you insist on fixing it yourself then you're going to have to get the buzz box working and get some decent power to it. Disassembling and bench repairing would be ideal but I suspect that's not going to happen--it would be a lot of extra work. Proper prep is going to be your friend here; get it clean, including removing all the paint; vee it out well and then preheat. I have been doing this kind of work for 40 years and my first choice of rod would probably be 7018 but 6011 would be a close second. In the end you should pick the rod that works best for you on that machine. Sounds like you haven't done much stick welding in the past 20 years so you're going to need some practice. Try both rods and see which one you're more comfortable with and which one actually gives you a better weld. We have no idea what your experience level is but you're going to need to lay down some decent vertical welds if you want the thing to hold together. That is a high stress point on the machine.

914Wilhelm
01-06-2013, 02:39 PM
Don't know about that model of backhoe but my Kubota has pins I slip in for transport that prevent the boom from swing right or left or bouncing up and down to help prevent breaking stuff. If your breaker box is near a window you can just get a breaker of the appropriate size and make an extension cord of the right size, wired right into the breaker, and drop it out he window to where you want to weld. Of course it may just be time to bite the bullet and get into the crawl space or attic and run some appropriate wire to the garage to save yourself future grief. God knows I've spent more time rigging up temporary wiring and plumbing when a permanent fix would have saved time in the long term. And I think #6 wire should be good for 80 amps at 70 feet with a 2% voltage drop but if you have to run up and down walls you may have to add another 10-20 feet and may want to got to #4.

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 03:22 PM
I'm thinking the 135 is way too small and not only have poor penetration, but would require hundreds of passes (not to mention renting a gas bottle to avoid the flux core porosity and dirty weld issues).

Odd, since flux core is OK for structural...... if you use decent wire you shouldn't get porosity etc..... it can happen with stick too.

Dunno about hundreds of passes....... how thick IS it? Looks like maybe 3/8 or a half.... but no way I'd ever try the little 135 unless maybe the joint were heated up pretty well with a torch first..... I doubt you'd even get the metal hot with that 90A.... at 15% or so duty.... At an amp per thou, roughly, you wouldn't be close. You need something that will get it hot so the weld metal isn't frozen and brittle, laying on the surface.

As for the buzzbox...... if it does DC it ain't a buzzbox...... A buzzbox, as I know and dislike them, only does AC, so it doesn't penetrate well , just basically lays down metal on the surface. wouldn't be real good.

The DC would be OK, looks like a fair current rating...maybe 250A? Duty might be an issue, you are going to run it at max. Still might be good to pre-heat it so the weld metal isn't chilled fast by all that cold metal around it. ( I did listen a bit in class)

As for the wire, you are allowed to over-rate welder supply wire, and breaker it at up to 300% of normal, based on the duty rating of the welder, for a dedicated circuit, which you will have. But the breaker has to be up there so it won't open. 8 ga wire may well be good for it with the duty rating adjustment. It's in the code, if you know the duty rating of the stick welder.

Fasttrack
01-06-2013, 03:41 PM
I've done a number of similar repairs on modern earth-moving equipment. I don't know about the old equipment, but modern equipment is made from alloy steel and the weldments are often highly constrained. This requires careful preheat and sometimes post-weld peening. I use low hydrogen 7018 rods, which means you need to bake them before use. On the advice of a welding engineer, I avoid the use of 6011 for root pass on high strength steel or highly constrained weldments. We noticed a large number of track hoes that had mild steel stiffener plates welded to the alloy steel stick were cracking after a few years of use. The were welded with 6011 root passes. By switching to low-hy rods throughout and paying careful attention to preheat and inter-pass temperature, that problem seems to have disappeared.

Pay careful attention to weld prep as well. If you don't have experience stick welding, I suggest calling a pro.

By the way, JT - 6011 were made for use on AC buzz boxes to help solve the problem of insufficient penetration. Put a 6011 on DC and now you've got a gouging/cutting rod! ;)

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 03:52 PM
By the way, JT - 6011 were made for use on AC buzz boxes to help solve the problem of insufficient penetration. Put a 6011 on DC and now you've got a gouging/cutting rod! ;)

Used it in class, it was ...."OK"...... I wasn't impressed when we sectioned the weld..... Didn't look at all like DC and 7018 even.

Used on DC, burns through anything.....

flylo
01-06-2013, 03:55 PM
I agree DC with 7018. I had a 310, it will do the job but it's no heavy weight.

Forrest Addy
01-06-2013, 04:04 PM
I've read the whole thread and I don't see much emphasis on joint cleanliness, preheat. or weld chemistry.

No matter what the hay hands and shade tree technicians tell you you can't make clean reliable welds over dirt, oil, rust, or paint. Good quality welds start with clean bright basemetal. Clean off all paint and oil including what ever looks likely to drip or ooze into the HAZ. Assume the worst about preceding epairs grind off all previous weld and grind to make a good weld prep. If its necessary to excavate to the point that an impossible to weld gap remains weld repair.build up 'til a suitable fit-up is attained. Is the back side acessible? You may need to consider a back up strip or plate or whether back gouging is possible. Regardless, it looks like the work is in a difficult position. Elevate the work zone to knee height or better. You will produce welds of better quality if you can weld from a comfortable position.

Even though the base material is most likely to be a low carbon structrual steel you will get greater HAZ ductilituy and penetration if you preheat to 300-400 degrees F prior to welding. Are you in practice? I was once a pretty good welder but I found my "touch" faded over a few months of other things. My welding was usually better quality if I first ran a few practice welds particularly with a strange machine. Manual skills do need refreshing.

Weld chemistry bothers me. I've heard too many horror stories. I hate stabbing in the dark, Welding should be like machine work where everythng is dull and predictable. I hate to be in the clean-up phase sweeping and hear a tiny little "tink!" come from the cooling weld. Material analysis is ideal but often expensive or impossible. Read up on "sparkology" the art of identifying steel from grinding sparks. If you can perform side by side tests with known materials with a clean grinder or sanding disk you can identify the material with remarkable precision.

As for your MIG 135 Vs the BAW (big a$$ welder) use the big one. That said, with care, the right filler metal, shielding gas, and preheat you can make high quality welds in massy parts with a weenie short arc machine but it goes so slow.

The big machine will draw primary Amps in rough proportion to the welding amps. If its a 300 Amp machine and you're welding with 100 Amps the demand from the electrical service will be roughly 1/3 the name plate figure. You electrical nit pickers out there but me no buts: I said "roughly" glossing over high falutin technicalities in the interest of simplicity and clarity.

Cleanliness, completely remove all flux and grind out all interpass flaws (laps, porosity) before proceding. Consider run-out tabs.

Filler metal: That is dictated by the base metal; they absolutely have to be compatible. If the base material is the usual structural steel I would suggest 7018 because of as-deposited ductility. But the flux is hygroscopic and adsorbs water the rod is left in open air. Bake the rod in a warm (250 degree F) oven for several hours before use.

Time aside, if you pay attention to the preheat and other factors, which welder you use will be a coin toss.

R W
01-06-2013, 04:23 PM
Most of its already been said. Have you considered hiring/borrowing an engine driven DC welder for a day.
Looking at the photos I'd say it would need to be taken off the tractor and properly positoned for both preparation and welding, someone
with a lot of experience may manage it on there.
The original repair may have been done without taking it off and this helped lead to the weld failure.
A 7018 rod with some peheat should be OK.
Saw a lot of welding done on older Cat machines with a 7014 (no preheat) can't remember to many failures.

adatesman
01-06-2013, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the help, Folks... Just back from an hour or two of grinding (4" disk is now 3"), and it's clear it broke due to a bad repair. The original side plate is 1" and cracked sometime in the past 50+ years, and some numbskull decided the proper fix was to simply MIG a piece of 1/4" angle over it without V-ing out the crack and laying new weld. Poking though the grime the other side's in bad shape too, but holding.

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe4.jpg

I'm no stranger to multi-pass welds (grew up in a custom CNC maching/fab shop), so provided that buzzbox works the recommendation for 7018 gets me headed in the right direction. The chart on the machine for 1" thick and 7018 says 100-170 amps, so easy enough to work backwards to the needed breaker. Any way you cut it, a dozen or three passes with 5/32" stick is preferable to 15% duty cycle with .035" MIG, so I'll find a way to get the big machine running. Surprisingly the case was completely empty of mouse nests, and all it took to get the variable amperage mechanism working was a couple gentle taps with a hammer. Will head to Homer's presently for wire and grinding wheels, and will hopefully be good to go tomorrow afternoon.

Thx!

Stepside
01-06-2013, 04:28 PM
Having worked on Case 310's through Case580ks I would start out differently. Somewhere in a Junkyard there is the sister machine without the break. Unless it is "gold" buy the part and start your new pin and bushing routine. It most probably broke because of the wear on the pins and bushings.
If no parts, then tear it down and weld it where you can work on it. If a little out of practice pay a pro to prep and weld. A "patch job" will bite you in the backside at the least convienient time.

Black Forest
01-06-2013, 04:29 PM
Forest he didn't ask how to weld or do the repair. He just asked which of his machines and what rod to use. So if you are referring to me as a hay hand you might be surprised at what my background in welding might be. But you gave a very good dissertation on welding. Good on you.

adatesman
01-06-2013, 04:49 PM
Just finished up catching up with the tread, and yup, pulling the part isn't an option. It's the lower bracket the hoe swivels on, which means not only removing it, but draining the hydraulics and finding a bench capable of holding a literal ton or so. Following from that is the only equipment I have here to move that kind of weight is the FEL/backhoe, so it's basically a non-starter. It has to be repaired in situ, wether with the equipment on hand or rented gas-powered. And given MIG has an additional shielding gas cost and I have a ~295 amp DC welder available, I'd rather go stick. Last I welded stick was a semester-long welding course at Penn College of Technology (now part of Penn State, and after finishinge Engineering degree) as an elective in their Automated Manufacturing curriculum, and it included out-of-position MIG, TIG and Stick. Been a long while, but between rereading the text, a couple practice welds and a childhood in the machining/fab shop I have no worries about DIY on this repair. My only real question was equipment selection and what stick, and really the 135 wasn't seriously considered other than tacking the freshly V-ground repair in place.

Off to Homers for a bunch of wire, a plug or two and more grinding wheels.

Thx!

adatesman
01-06-2013, 04:56 PM
And apologies for referring to a 5 way transformer based stick machine as a buzz box. It's big and red and old habits die hard.

Forrest Addy
01-06-2013, 05:45 PM
Take no offense Black Forest. By "hay hand" and "shade tree etc" I refer to presumptuous fools full of bad advise for the other guy. The very people full of "you shoulda..." for the people who followed their bad advise.

I say this having known a good many thoughtful responsible hay hands and shade tree technicians and found in them high levels of competence in a number of fields. My comtempt is therefore seletive and specific to particular hay hands and shade tree technicians Darwin has not yet eliminated from the gene pool most likely because they suborn others to take their foolish risks

adatesman
01-06-2013, 06:12 PM
I say this having known a good many thoughtful responsible hay hands and shade tree technicians and found in them high levels of competence in a number of fields. My comtempt is therefore seletive and specific to particular hay hands and shade tree technicians Darwin has not yet eliminated from the gene pool most likely because they suborn others to take their foolish risks

I'm afraid to ask, Forrest, but which group would you, knowing nothing of me, would group me in? Near as I can tell I phrased my question intelligently and conveyed at least a passing familiarity with the subject matter, so am a bit bewildered by some of the responses here. I'm going to chalk it up to the sour tone the forum's taken the past couple months, but frankly I'm certain I would have gotten a quick and correct answer on PM without all the attitude.

Either way I picked up a 60 amp breaker, some plugs and #6 wire this evening, and will track down the 7018 sticks in the morning. Thanks to those who were helpful.

Edit to fix 7016 typo... Should have been 7018.

mike4
01-06-2013, 06:44 PM
From looking at the pictures you will have a lot of prep work to do to get the previous "repair" out of the way and then get as much of the fatigued metal cleaned up as oil and grease will soak into cracks.
As others have said you may be better off with the stick and preheat both the metal and rods or it will bite you later.
I also agree with you as to the "tone "of the forum lately , there are many who think that they are the only person qualified or experienced enough to take a job on .
I and several others here on this forum dont go around making remarks as to the abilities or otherwise of members we just get on with the task at hand and move on to the next .
I have found from painful experience that many who make a big deal of their qualifications can not always do the task at hand in the field, they can quote all of the theory , but when it comes to a greasy machine sitting in mud with a broken part , they will fail to perform.
My 02c
Michael

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 07:17 PM
The 60A may limit you, with 1" material to weld on, you may want everything you can get.

Since you got the #6 wire.... 75C rating (which may apply to all your connections) is 65A.... if the welder is rated 50% duty, you COULD, per NEC, breaker that wire at up to 90A, if you use it for the welder, and don't leave it in place afterwards..... 50% duty is a "multiplier" of 0.71, for 91A. A 1 hour rating is a multiplier of 0.75, or 86A, and the "next larger breaker" rule could probably be applied.

Either will give you close to the maximum output of the welder, although they don't satisfy the 0.8 continuous current. Most welding isn't continuous, especially stick, and I doubt you will go for a really long time for that repair anyhow.

Above is from an older copy of code I had here..... I don't think that got changed much if any since.

adatesman
01-06-2013, 07:49 PM
Mike4- yeah, forum's been unpleasant of late. Don't care for it, so haven't been posting much. You're also spot on wrt the theory vs actually getting it to work. Ugly/improper as this repair was, I have no doubt it worked well enough for as long as they had the machine. Leaves me a mess to repair propery, but given how ugly patching on top would be I'd rather cut it all out and do it right since it'll pay off when I flip the machine in a couple months.

JTiers- machine says 100% duty to ~130 amps or so, tapering to 20% (no scale given for how fast) up to 295 amps. It's literally going to be drop the breaker in, run the wire, weld it up, and then break it all down. Once I get the drainage fixed I'll be ripping out all of the house wiring anyway, so definitely not leaving it hooked up. Thx for the numbers, btw. Good to know I'll be in the ballpark for temporary use.

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 08:30 PM
If it's 20% at full pop, which you may be using, you could just about wire it to the main breaker output and go, never mind the 60A one.... It's about 0.45 "multiplier" for low duty like that. not 100% kosher, but it should be OK for your temporary use, and lets you use the "whole rating". I'm assuming the welder has some internal protection.

Mostly, that duty is the time in any 10 min time that you can weld at that current..... so 2 min on, 8 off for 295A.

adatesman
01-06-2013, 08:36 PM
Considered that JTiers, but not so comfortable wiring into the mains since I don't knot how to disconnect at the meter. Safer to go with the 60A beaker and hope it works well enough.

JRouche
01-06-2013, 09:08 PM
Im just having fun reading this stuff :) JR

wierdscience
01-06-2013, 09:41 PM
OA torch,burn the grease out and back bevel the edges,clean up with a chipping hammer,pull it into alignment,tack and weld with 1/8 7018 full penetration weld.

It's a backhoe guys,no need to over think this,it doesn't fly in space.

J Tiers
01-06-2013, 09:55 PM
Considered that JTiers, but not so comfortable wiring into the mains since I don't knot how to disconnect at the meter. Safer to go with the 60A beaker and hope it works well enough.

I DO mean AFTER the main breaker, not right at the service.... that would NOT be a good idea in several ways, so I am happy you don't like it..... IIRC the main is 100A, and you will have 240V, so it's even good by the 80% rule given your listed amp draw.

The only issue is that the main breaker is not quite the same response as a branch circuit breaker, but it will be OK for this, as a temporary deal. i just hate to see you walking back and forth resetting the 60A, when you can go higher for welding service.

loggerhogger
01-06-2013, 10:37 PM
I would like to point out a little something without raining on anybody's parade. we used to have Case backhoes at work, and they had cast into the boom the words; "Ductile Iron Do Not Weld" Ductile iron is cast iron that is formulated to bend without breaking. the problem is that once it has been welded, the heat changes it right back to ordinary grey iron which might be why the repair failed in the first place. I would recomend either getting a part from a junk backhoe as was previously suggested, or get some thick plate steel and fabricate a new piece. If you re-weld the old one, it more than likely will fail again, and it might do so at the least convenient time possible.

mike4
01-07-2013, 12:01 AM
That would change the whole approach < couldnt tell from the photos of the machine.
Michael

dneufell
01-07-2013, 01:38 AM
Ask these guys :) :) :)

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?10538-Welding-boom-cracks-Case-580D-backhoe-HELP!

Dean

camdigger
01-07-2013, 01:47 AM
Adatesman

Unless you intend to use larger rods than 1/8", you will not need more than 150 amps on the output. Ideally and more realistically, you will be around 130 - 140 amps for 1/8" 7018.

3/32" rods will reduce the maximum amperage down to about 110 amps and again, more realistically around 85 - 95 amps. Check amperage ranges for these rods on Lincoln, Miler, or Esab sites....

It is extremely unlikely you will need all 300 amps on the output for a vertical weld.

Bigger machines are better not just for the higher output, but also for duty cycle, etc including the phenomenon of simply working better at 50% of rated output rather than 100%.

As far as metallurgy, you could well be dealing with ductile iron down where the break is. The telltale signs are 1) rounded edges, 2) obviously machined flat bearing surfaces 3) is there an obvious parting line from a mold? 4) as cast surface texture. It is possible to get those features from forgings as well, but there is apparently a history of ductile iron use in Case machines.

I highly doubt the boom and dipper of your hoe are ductile iron as the components appear to be machine flame cut out of flat sheet - likely structural steel, but possibly a low alloy.

LKeithR
01-07-2013, 02:21 AM
OA torch,burn the grease out and back bevel the edges,clean up with a chipping hammer,pull it into alignment,tack and weld with 1/8 7018 full penetration weld.

It's a backhoe guys,no need to over think this,it doesn't fly in space.

YUP, I agree. Time to get on with the job. The OP wants to use the machine for one job and then sell it. It's been a while since I worked on one of those so I couldn't say for sure what the swing yoke is made of--based on the pictures, if I had to guess I'd say it's a weldment, not a casting. In any case, even if it is ductile iron, with proper prep, some preheat and a decent weld it should last long enough to get the job done; probably a lot longer. It's really the only choice since I don't think that finding used parts or making a new one is in the budget...

MrFluffy
01-07-2013, 04:03 AM
I would follow all the good advice on welding and prep and cleanliness in here and I'd remove any previous work in that area as I've seen some "field repairs" that would make your toes curl, but I'd also add some extra material in to increase the area of weldment & material holding the repair. I know it didn't have it originally but originally it didnt have a weak weld repair in that area and 20 years of fatigue. And I agree with the other poster who suggested the pins being loose has caused extra stress on the machine and the shock loads in use tends to break things.
I use my 375amp dc set for heavy work on my (40+ year old) jcb backhoe. I think you need all the amps you can get when dealing with this kind of repair as there's so much steel around the area to wick away the heat. I have repairs on the chassis, the FEL and backhoe, in fact anywhere you look its scarred with years and years of repairs. We just use it & when it breaks we steam it, vee it out and fix it then plate over the area if I feel it needs it.
Good luck, it still beats using a spade even when you have to fix it first :)

J Tiers
01-07-2013, 08:10 AM
I use my 375amp dc set for heavy work on my (40+ year old) jcb backhoe. I think you need all the amps you can get when dealing with this kind of repair as there's so much steel around the area to wick away the heat.

That's what my admittedly limited experience tells me too..... Otherwise the pool is small and freezes so fast it barely "sticks"... never spreads out, never gets a good penetration, doesn't "lay down", etc, etc, etc. Extreme example being the "home shop bird-crap weld".

For sure, at some point there is "enough", based on the heat conductivity of steel.... your input is "hot enough" that you get a good pool and penetration just because the heat can't "get away" fast enough through the steel. But with pieces of 1" thick steel around it, it seems likely to be at more than the 85A that another poster mentioned....

Dunno.... was taught that within limits, more heat beats less, you can deal with more heat by manipulation, but "too little" just isn't enough no matter what you do, unless maybe you pre-heat the part.

winchman
01-07-2013, 08:20 AM
I would like to point out a little something without raining on anybody's parade. we used to have Case backhoes at work, and they had cast into the boom the words; "Ductile Iron Do Not Weld" Ductile iron is cast iron that is formulated to bend without breaking. the problem is that once it has been welded, the heat changes it right back to ordinary grey iron which might be why the repair failed in the first place. I would recomend either getting a part from a junk backhoe as was previously suggested, or get some thick plate steel and fabricate a new piece. If you re-weld the old one, it more than likely will fail again, and it might do so at the least convenient time possible.

That's a good point that's been overlooked until you brought it up. Is it really something that can be welded successfully?

adatesman
01-07-2013, 10:34 AM
Howdy Folks,

Just got back from the welding shop, having picked up 5 pounds each of 6011 and 7018 in 5/32 (size per the chart on the machine). The cables look good but the holder and ground clamp are shot, so will be replacing them.

As for the part I'll be welding on, it's definitely a weldment and not cast/forged. Here's a pic of the top swivel that shows the construction quite clearly:

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe5.jpg

And it's actually only 1/2" plate, not the 1" I was seeing on the bottom. Apparently it cracked, a 1/4" plate was grafted on then it cracked again and another 1/4" plate added. Crazy...

Anyway I'll be cutting this all out, laying a 6011 root and then fill with 7018. Will update as things progress...

R. Dan
01-07-2013, 11:13 AM
I have to weigh in on this. This is a critical part of your machine. As others have already pointed out, finding a donor machine would be my number one choice, and if the part is found, a careful overview of the part to ensure that it is sound. Many times, particular machines exhibit the same weakness between them and it may be that your model hoe has a historical issue in this weldment. It appears to be a somewhat common machine, but they may all have a problem with those pivots. For example: try finding a head for a Super MTA that doesn't have cracks or has never been repaired.


Next, no matter what you do, I would take the weldment off. Even it you have to find a tree to rig that hoe to in order to get the pivot off, that's what I would do. I would not try to repair that nasty, dirty, broken down, out-of alignment weldment in situ unless absolutely necessary, and I know I have the chops to do so if I had to. If you can move it around, roll it over, get up real close to it, the work will go much better.

Welding: if it is a weldment from `57, it is likely to be A-36 plate. No real biggy, but preperation is what is important. Make sure it is clean, and get rid of all the fish plates that have been goobered on in the past. No paint, no dirt, and above all, no grease. Use a bit of heat and use your grinder generously. If it doesn't look right, take it back out. If you have the weldment off the machine, you will be able to manipulate it properly for in position welding which is your best option. Personally, I would forego the 6011 and use all lo-hy, but that's just me and my personal preference. There is not that much difference in the tensile strength of the 2 types of rod; what it really boils down to is the flux. As for your 7018 - buy it out of a new can and keep it warm. It doesn't have to be smoking hot, just warm enough to disallow moisture absorption. I used to have an old small refigerator that I rigged a light bulb in. It kept the lo-hy warm enough to keep it in good shape. If you leave it out cold, it will absorb moisture. Old welders have told me you can dry it back out once, but after that the flux gets pretty shaky, so keep it warm from the git-go.

Oh, did I mention? Take the hoe apart and work on the pivot under ideaql conditions.

camdigger
01-07-2013, 01:22 PM
Howdy Folks,

Just got back from the welding shop, having picked up 5 pounds each of 6011 and 7018 in 5/32 (size per the chart on the machine). The cables look good but the holder and ground clamp are shot, so will be replacing them.

As for the part I'll be welding on, it's definitely a weldment and not cast/forged. Here's a pic of the top swivel that shows the construction quite clearly:

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe5.jpg

And it's actually only 1/2" plate, not the 1" I was seeing on the bottom. Apparently it cracked, a 1/4" plate was grafted on then it cracked again and another 1/4" plate added. Crazy...

Anyway I'll be cutting this all out, laying a 6011 root and then fill with 7018. Will update as things progress...

IMHO, 5/32" is too much rod, but I'll be curious to see how this goes. Personally, I don't own a rod bigger than 1/8" in 6010, 6011, 6013, 70 24, or my favorite 7018. I've done fab and repairs on material up to at least 3.4" plate (incluing 6" x 5.8" AR cutting edge material) with nothing bigger than those.

LKeithR
01-07-2013, 01:30 PM
...Just got back from the welding shop, having picked up 5 pounds each of 6011 and 7018 in 5/32 (size per the chart on the machine).

I think you might regret going with 5/32 instead of 1/8 rod. The larger rod will require more current and be more difficult to control. With proper preheat 1/8 is all you need for that repair.


As for the part I'll be welding on, it's definitely a weldment and not cast/forged...And it's actually only 1/2" plate, not the 1" I was seeing on the bottom. Apparently it cracked, a 1/4" plate was grafted on then it cracked again and another 1/4" plate added.

That's a good thing--the plate part, at least. While ductile iron can be welded it would be fussier. Only having to deal with plate ensures a much higher chance of success. Looking at the top of that frame, I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's actually a replacement part. Something about it just doesn't look factory to me. If it is in fact a replacement the builder might have made it out of 1/2", discovered--the hard way--that it was too light, and proceeded to cobble some repair plates on to the original piece. Been there, done that when time and money were short...


Anyway I'll be cutting this all out, laying a 6011 root and then fill with 7018. Will update as things progress...

If the 6011 goes in good and you're comfortable welding with it there's no need to switch to 7018. Better to have a good weld done with a rod that's working well than a crappy weld with a rod you have to fight all the way...

adatesman
01-07-2013, 02:27 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it likely broke due to the series of really bad repairs, slapped one on to of the other. Here's what I found under that piece of angle:

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe6.jpg

I mean, jeez is that ugly. And no matter how you look at it, any repair I do that involves cutting all that out and starting from scratch will be far better than what's there. Sure, talking it in to be professionally fixed or tracking down a replacement is the 'right' thing to do, but there is neither time nor funds to do that. Plus it's not really worth sinking much money into, given decent ones go for maybe triple scrap price.

Anyway, back to grinding all that out...

BigMike782
01-07-2013, 04:32 PM
Ask these guys :) :) :)

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/showthread.php?10538-Welding-boom-cracks-Case-580D-backhoe-HELP!

Dean
Dean,I take this post as sarcasm:) speaking of starting a S&@! storm.

This is a very interesting thread and I will be following it.....I wish you good luck.

winchman
01-07-2013, 04:34 PM
The cruddy repairs explain why it broke this time. I'd like to know what happened to make it break the first time.

The job reminds me of the repairs I made to a dirt box last August. Fortunately, nobody had tried to 'fix' it before I got to it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/winchman/MiscellaneousJuly2012on034.jpg

BigMike782
01-07-2013, 04:37 PM
Was that made by Gannon?

winchman
01-07-2013, 06:04 PM
Yes, I believe it was an Economy Mover made by Gannon. Is that good or bad?

dneufell
01-07-2013, 06:31 PM
BigMike782.......No it was not sarcasm....These guys weld for a living and have done it all. I read a few similar posts about backhoe weld fixes.
Adatesman said in his post it has been 20 years since he touched a buzzbox and the one in the garage was questionable. Everyone has a different idea of what to do at every skill level. This is why you get different opinions. As soon as saw the ear broken off i was thinking a used boom from a junk yard or a crazy PRO welder! :)

(end of year side note... I just bought a 300 amp Lincoln mig welder and 135 amp Hypertherm plasma cutter) Dean

adatesman
01-07-2013, 07:52 PM
Adatesman said in his post it has been 20 years since he touched a buzzbox and the one in the garage was questionable.

FWIW I don't recall saying it was questionable, but rather I know nothing about it and therefore it is a bit of a question mark. It was left in the garage of the house I'm working on, and while it looks a bit ugly on the outside the internals look just fine. Will be powering it up tomorrow, and see no reason it won't work correctly (especially now that it has a new electrode holder and ground clamp, and all the connections have been cleaned. Just isn't all that much that can go wrong with a transformer-based welder).

And yes, it's been quite a while since I've done stick. But it isn't exactly rocket science and I do other types of welding rather frequently. A couple practice beads and I should be good to go...

duckman
01-07-2013, 08:08 PM
It probably broke by the idiot running it , not using it for digging but banging the bucket onto the ground , slamming the bucket into the ground puts a lot of stress on the lower pivot assembly , back hoes are made for digging period

BigMike782
01-07-2013, 08:54 PM
Gannon made a fairly rare attachment for garden tractors called an Earthcavator and it looks a lot like you bigger unit.

My comment about the welding forum came from seeing guys get BBQd for asking questions about projects similar to this.

dneufell
01-07-2013, 09:57 PM
Adatesman...yes you did...."Unfortunately I know nothing about the buzz-box, so that's a bit of a question mark as well"

then you said......"Sorry for all the questions; been 20+ years since I touched a buzzbox."

then you said...."any way you cut it, a dozen or three passes with 5/32" stick is preferable to 15% duty cycle with .035" MIG"

All 3 of these statements sets off flags.

I will not say that you do not have a clue ( I do not mean this observation maliciously).....but i am a betting man and i will wait so see if you weld it up.......Dean

adatesman
01-08-2013, 10:16 AM
Adatesman...yes you did...."Unfortunately I know nothing about the buzz-box, so that's a bit of a question mark as well"

then you said......"Sorry for all the questions; been 20+ years since I touched a buzzbox."

then you said...."any way you cut it, a dozen or three passes with 5/32" stick is preferable to 15% duty cycle with .035" MIG"

All 3 of these statements sets off flags.

I will not say that you do not have a clue ( I do not mean this observation maliciously).....but i am a betting man and i will wait so see if you weld it up.......Dean

I know full well what I said, Dean, and have no desire whatsoever to argue semantics with you.

Bet all you like, but if you're going to be an unhelpful ass, kindly keep it to yourself. This is exactly the sort of unpleasantness people here complain about happening on PM, so perhaps you're on the wrong site?

dneufell
01-08-2013, 11:17 AM
Adatesman....(said in a straight tone). No i do not want to argue at all.....I seldom post here and you can research my other threads. I try to reply to posts that i have direct knowledge and field experience, Unhelpfull?.....No.....If you were in my neck of the woods i would try to help you. I belong to PM also.......:) Dean

adatesman
01-08-2013, 06:51 PM
Sorry for being snippy, Dean. Overly tired and my filter's not working right. Thanks for not taking it personal. :)

Anyway, update from today...

Finished grinding out all the mess, including gouging any cracks/old weld undercuts and gouging/hitting with the Fluxcore MIG/re-gouging of anything that weeped oil when heated (best way I had available to put a lot of heat into the crack to burn the goo out).

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe7.jpg

Then a combination of weighting and pulling on the extended boom to close the gap, grinding the gap parallel, followed by a bit more pulling and a quick tack with the MIG to hold it in place. Looks dirtier than it is; I just finished grinding and did not brush it for the pix.

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe8.jpg

Turns out that old AC/DC welder works just fine (for DC Reverse, at least) and won't blow the 60A 240V breaker even when turned up to 180A. That's the good news. Bad news is the combination of too big a gap, too much heat and too large a rod made the root weld crappy, so had to grind it all out. And naturally that's when the battery cable terminal started acting up, which lead to it breaking and me calling it a day. While out getting replacement battery terminal clamps I picked up some 1/8" E6011 and thinner grinding wheels, so hopefully that solves the burn through problem. Once this is all in place I'll cut/scab in a new piece to replace the vertical one that's missing on the back. The crack through that crappy weld had completely detached it, and the only thing holding it in was that grafted-on plate.

Looks like my wife's gotten hooked on Downton Abbey and has several seasons to catch up on, so I'm off to snuggle up with "New Lessons in Arc Welding" and my class notes from ages ago.

rollin45
01-08-2013, 07:07 PM
Prep don't look too bad, I'd use 6010 to fill that gap/root. This is the rod used on pressure piping when stick welded for root passes, I used it for 35 years doing x-ray pipe welds for the root. Get the root in , grind back to clean metal and then run your 7018. Good luck

rollin'

Machine
01-08-2013, 07:39 PM
Why again must you use 6010 or 6011 to fill the gap/root? And why is a regular AC buzzbox (like a Lincoln 220VAC tombstone welder) not good for this type of welding? I know with Tig AC is used for welding Aluminum and DC is used for steel. But I always thought the old AC buzz boxes would stick weld thick steel just fine...won't they?

rollin45
01-08-2013, 09:40 PM
Several questions there, 6010 and 11 are fast freeze rods, the puddle solidifies very quickly lessening the chance of slag inclusions, and also makes more precise placement of the weld bead possible. AC Tig on aluminum is used to break the oxidation surface of the puddle, and yes AC buzz boxes will weld some things just fine, but for strength and superior quality of welds (stick) DC is preferrred. DC gives more penetration and a smoother running therefore easier to control arc.
With an open gap, or butt like the above prep, one wants to tie both sides together and fill the gap seamlessly, that is, no un-fused edges and no slag inclusions. Impurities can cause porosity as the impurity goes to a gas, it leaves bubbles in the steel, looks like a sponge... so clean preps are necessary, and a fast freezing rod is used to fill the gap. Then this first pass is cleaned (ground down to clean metal, care must be used here so you don't grind to thin resulting in burn through... it's perfectly acceptable to run two passes of 6010 cleaning each pass) and you can then go to the 7018 or low hydrogen type rod.

hth
rollin'
rollin'

adatesman
01-08-2013, 10:04 PM
Forgot how much I hated how "New Lessons in Arc Welding" was formatted, but sifting through it there's lots of good info and mistakes in the previous attempts at repair are obvious... Poor weld prep/contamination, undersized machine/not enough heat, wrong wire/electrodes. While grinding through the mess I'd often find a spot that would quickly discolor and peel up, only to show contamination or underbead cracking. Apparently my childhood spent shadowing the weldors in the fab shop was well spent....

On a side note, I really miss having access to those big MIG setups. :-(

gda
01-08-2013, 10:11 PM
Looking almost ready for Bondo!

I pulled my machine apart when I was younger and did not have other machines to help - so it is possible.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/tool_collector/backhoe%20stabilizer%20repair/rearrebuild1.jpg

michigan doug
01-08-2013, 10:23 PM
Carry on. Keep us posted.

My dad has an old case similar to yours. It has a LOT of battle scars. He taught art and industrial art. Plus, we ran an old farm with old machinery. I thought all 15 year olds knew how to weld.

Finest regards,

doug

adatesman
01-08-2013, 10:32 PM
I thought all 15 year olds knew how to weld.

IMO they *should*. But cutbacks and liability, don't you know? :-(

Jon Heron
01-08-2013, 10:36 PM
It looks like you got it cleaned up pretty good there! What a fricken mess...
I only have an AC buzz box so I have never tried 6010's or 7018's but I have used 6011 and 6013 rods as well as mig. I prefer the 6011's, the bead is ugly compared to 6013's but they work excellent! The small 120v mig that I was lent was useless for any kind of welding on metal thicker then 1/8", I gave it back and never looked back, my old craftsman 350a buzzbox has done a decent job on anything I threw at it, not withstanding my lack of skill. :)
Like I mentioned earlier, if it were me I would use 1/8" 6011's and probably start out at around 100 ~ 120A. For welding vertically like that I find it easier to start at the bottom and weave my way to the top, going from the top down doesn't seem to work so well for me... Bear in mind I am just a self taught sparky with no formal training in welding whatsoever. :rolleyes:
Good luck!
Jon
PS: Here is a quick read about rod types I had in my links section from when I learned to weld a couple years back that some of you may find useful. http://www.thefabricator.com/article/consumables/examining-the-finer-points-of-6010-6011-and-7018

Jon Heron
01-08-2013, 11:30 PM
FWIW, I forgot to mention, keep a short and steady arc!
The biggest hurdle I had to overcome to lay down nice welds with the 6011 was to keep the arc very short. When I get ready to weld now, I always get as comfortable as I can and do a couple practice runs to make sure I can keep the same arc length till the end of the rod, that made a big difference in the quality of my welds.
Cheers,
Jon

winchman
01-09-2013, 12:02 AM
What if anything are you going to do about the attachment of the forging to the other side of the swivel?

dneufell
01-09-2013, 01:27 AM
Adatesman.....where do i send the cash/check/or S+H greenstamps to? Outstanding job! Great luck on the french drain....... :) Dean

914Wilhelm
01-09-2013, 02:31 AM
Guess I am concerned that if the boom is able to flex open this huge a space, then the metal on the other side of the boom is cracked as well. Are there any easy to use materials, suitable for home use, you can use for crack detection (other then eyeballs) for hidden cracks?

I had a similar repair on a smaller 3-point mounted hoe and fixed it with Mig, no fishplates and it is still working. That unit cracked as it was being pushed beyond its limits digging rocks and not soil. It went to a more soil friendly tree farm.

It is great you are just simply this getting done! Some time times there is too much perseveration around here.

Black Forest
01-09-2013, 06:03 AM
The way I look at many of the posts on this site is such. It is like the oil companies and Green Peace. They both go to extremes. Without the sometimes ridiculous over the top stance of Green Peace or Peta the other end of the spectrum wouldn't try so hard to do things better.

Same as on here. We have the resident naysayers that put down everything that isn't exactly by the book. And then we have the Bubba's that try to do everything in the easiest and quickest manner without thoughts to the future.

Sometimes on a farm or working piece of equipment you just need it to be good enough to get the job done and other times it has to be better than perfect.

So a balance must be reached. With the posts that tell how it should be done expertly the OP can be made aware of just that and then take from that what he can do practically and then "Git'er done"

I know I personally learn a lot from the over the top posts and it raises the bar on what I do even in the just get it done mode.

BigJohnT
01-09-2013, 06:27 AM
Black Forest, very true indeed!

John

Machine
01-09-2013, 07:04 AM
Hey that looks really cool. What did you do with your backhoe there? Looks like you might be redoing your pins and bushings or???


Looking almost ready for Bondo!

I pulled my machine apart when I was younger and did not have other machines to help - so it is possible.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/tool_collector/backhoe%20stabilizer%20repair/rearrebuild1.jpg

camdigger
01-09-2013, 01:25 PM
By 14, I was doing most of the repair work on our collection of antique farm equipment. I learned a lot just after we got a bigger tractor - we pulled most of the old stuff apart the first year we had it... By 16, I was working in a fab shop running a big solid wire MIG for the summer...

Lu47Dan
01-09-2013, 03:57 PM
adatesman, I have been in the middle of the where you are at right now also. This is the link to the thread that shows the rebuild of my bucket linkages on my Parsons Backhoe Attachment for my tractor.
http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30620
Once you get it tacked up good and solid, heat it up again to see if you have found all the cracks in the metal surrounding the joint. I had a repair that kept weeping grease and oil until I ground it out more and found that what I had thought was untouched base metal had been built up poorly.
Once you have insured that there are no more hidden fusion failures, weld it up with the 7018. I would have bought 3/32 rod instead of 5/32 the weld puddle would have been smaller and easier to manipulate. But the 5/32 will do the job if you can control the puddle. Keep the arc short as 7018 gets hotter the longer the arc you run. Get a knotted wire wheel and clean the weld well, grinding can expose porosity and included crap.
Good luck.
Dan (another Union Steamfitter)

adatesman
01-09-2013, 06:52 PM
Not as much progress as I'd like today, as I lost half of it to trying to get the thing started so I could position the boom to close up the gap. After no luck whatsoever it occurred to me that the plate on the back lines up perfectly with the gap left there, so tacked on a backing plate and got busy.

Here are the E6011 root welds after grinding back to check for penetration and contamination:

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe9.jpg

Then on to a whole lot of vertical E7018 beads (couldn't get it to behave going upwards for some reason). Not exactly stack of dimes, but not bad for not having done stick in 20 years... :-)

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe10.jpg

Every 2 or 3 beads I'd grind a bunch back to check the weld, and surprisingly didn't find a single issue.

Then a bunch of horizontal passes, since it seemed to build up faster. Probably was running a bit hot given the amount of droop, but I don't particularly care since I'll be grinding it flat anyway to check the welds and make fitting a reinforcing plate easier.

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe11.jpg

Pretty pleased with the results so far, and tomorrow will be spent fitting the piece on the back and cleaning it all up.

digr
01-09-2013, 07:28 PM
You are going to have to have a burning torch and a good side grinder with a hard wheels to clean up the area and then figure out how to get the pieces back together for tacking. once that is done you should be able to use the boom to position it for welding. But the 135 is kind of small for the job, you should be able to use 1/8" 7018 but I think the duty cycle would not handle it. Your best bet is to find a buddy with a mig or at least a larger welder to be able to pour the rod to it. A gas drive would be perfect. If it was here I would use .045 duel shield wire. Also a good preheat before welding. I don't know what your welding skills are. If you hire it out

goodscrap
01-09-2013, 07:30 PM
looks a good job to me, i'd be well happy with than having not done any for as long as you say, i did a bit last year and wouldn't be that good if i picked up the stick welder today.

as they say your side of the pond "get'er done" :D

gda
01-09-2013, 07:36 PM
adatsman: looks like better than when you got it. There is no reason to sell it, they come in handy.

Machine: yeah, I repinned and bushed most of the machine. Guys at the dealership were super cool. Cheap bushings I bought, expensive ones they let me measure since on a couple I modified dimensions to account for some pin wear. I did not have my shop 10 years ago so a buddy made the parts for me. Fast forward 10 years where I have equipment to help me work on my equipment.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/tool_collector/1974%20ford%20f250/cabonJPG_zpsafa22c3a.jpg

adatesman
01-09-2013, 08:06 PM
Not quite following you Digr.... The gap was mainly from the amount of material I had to cut out, so it actually was pretty well aligned the way I welded it up.

Also I'm using the big Century box I mentioned early on, not the Lincoln 135. I'm running it at ~130A DC Reverse with 5/32" rods, and it's humming along nicely (and just within its 100% duty cycle range to boot).

Hope that clears things up for you.

adatesman
01-09-2013, 08:09 PM
looks like better than when you got it. There is no reason to sell it, they come in handy.


That it does. Time will tell if I gets sold... For how cheap I got it I'd like to keep it, but long term I think I'd get more use out of something smaller with a rear PTO and 3 point.

Deja Vu
01-09-2013, 08:48 PM
Waiting for tomorrow's visual!

bborr01
01-09-2013, 10:46 PM
Adatesman,

You may not get welder of the year for your efforts but they look pretty strong to me. I have over 40 years of part time welding and I wouldn't be afraid to put my name to that weld job.

Thanks for posting and sharing this with us.

Brian

winchman
01-10-2013, 12:44 AM
Looks like you could bend some pieces of 5/8" or 3/4" round bar around the whole thing to add reinforcement. Weld the ends solidly to the vertical part of the swivel, and chain-weld it to the forging. That would add a lot of strength without getting in the way of anything.

adatesman
01-10-2013, 08:59 AM
Actually, Winchman, I was thinking a pair of 1/4" or so fish plates (size depending on what scrap I have laying around) put on like this with a fully welded perimeter. Seems to me this would put material where it's needed and be a bit better looking. BTW, its entirely a cut plate weldment; no forgings or castings anywhere, which makes the repair easy enough for me to handle it. :)

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe12.jpg

BigJohnT
01-10-2013, 09:07 AM
Nice looking repair!

I'd bet it is as strong as the original or stronger but I wonder why it broke in the first place?

John

adatesman
01-10-2013, 09:22 AM
Thanks John. I think the reason it broke got touched on earlier... it's going on 60 years old and was likely subjected to a fair amount of abuse (like ramming the bucket into things). The old repair probably came apart for me either while trucking it home or while using the backhoe to lift the back end (bucket placed 3 feet out from the stabilizers) while evaluating the hydraulics. I do know it started flopping around a bit halfway through the drive even though the bucket was on the deck, at which point I stopped and lashed the top joint down.

camdigger
01-10-2013, 09:30 AM
Seems you're well on your way to digging again! Good job.

adatesman
01-10-2013, 02:22 PM
Finally got over here to work on it more, so figured I'd post a quick pic of the weld cleaned up a bit...

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe13.jpg

Needs a bit more fill in spots, which I'll rave care of once I get the piece in back fitted up (center of the pic, along the hoses). Very happy at the lack of contamination and porosity, for obvious reasons. At this point I'm not sure what all the take-it-to-a-professional talk was about, but whatever.

Oh, seems I did my math wrong about when I last used a stick welder... Would have been Spring of 1996 (welding class at Penn College of Technology), so 17 years, not 20. :)

adatesman
01-10-2013, 03:16 PM
Plate on the back is on with E6011 roots to bridge the significant gaps, now all ground out and ready for the E7018...

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe14.jpg

danlb
01-10-2013, 03:34 PM
Pretty impressive for being rusty and using an old 'found' welder on a 60 year old, well abused tractor.

I find that tasks like this have a way of working out. No mater how rusty you are at the beginning of the project, by the end of it you will have 'practiced' enough to be doing really nice work. It sure looks like it all came back to you.

Dan

MrFluffy
01-10-2013, 04:23 PM
Good repair, and even better, when it breaks somewhere else, you've got some good experience and practice in to do a proper job of that too. And it'll break again, backhoes broke even when they were new and being worked for a living by prof drivers, and now you have x years of fatigue on it too. On the plus side its unlikely you'll work it 1/10th as hard as a construction company would have with their focus on deadlines and penalty payments...

One query, did you manage to keep the heat away from those hoses near it? I noticed one missing its outer sheath in one of the shots, with the price of hydraulic oil here, I change them when they start to get like that in places they flex around parts and rub in. You may find it had some sort of plastic or rubber guide to stop the chaffing originally that the previous repairer has omitted, if so might be worth fabbing something to do the same job again.

adatesman
01-10-2013, 05:03 PM
Quick pic as the light's fading... I'm going to call this good enough for now. Still needs some fill on the inside of the plate on back, but rain's in the forecast for tomorrow and the only place I could get 60A 220V power is in the grass at the side of the house, so time to put everything away.

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe15.jpg

Missed the name of who just posted about now being in practice for the other side (been posting from my phone). <EDIT- Mr Fluffy>, but you're 100% spot on with that. The other side was "repaired" the same way, but hasn't broken yet. It'll go much smoother when I do that side, and I'll remember to protect the hoses that time. Although given the inferno that occurred several times there might not be a way to protect them short of removal. They're already well worn, so likely no need to worry about them until they fail.

Ok, gotta go see if this contemptible thing will start so I can move it into what would be considered a "garage" if it had a functional roof...

Edit- oops, I get you now on the hoses, Mr Fluffy... I read it as cost of the hoses, not cost (and mess!) if/when the hose breaks. Will look at them more closely tomorrow. I know I saw at least one flaming piece of the outer rubber sheath fall off, but there were big sections of it missing before I started working on it so I'm no worse off than when I started.

Edit x2- btw, for those who missed the old thread about the house I'm restoring (and need the backhoe for), it's a 1850's era schoolhouse outside Phildelphia, PA. The previous owner was a tinsmith/hvac guy and had a 30'x40' garage/workshop out back. He died ~15 years ago and the family kept piling junk back there, even after the flat roof partially failed (on the order of my having gone through 120 cubic yards of dumpster so far, as well as 12,000 pounds of scrap metal, but not counting the roof). I posted pics of a couple of the more interesting gems found in the mess, like a Canedy-Otto camelback drill press, a Buffalo drill press and a 1908-dated jump shear, but at the moment I'm thinking that big 5-way Century welder was the best find. Digging around the other day I saw that they still make a separate HF unit for it to do TIG, which would be SWEET.

Anyway, dark now and the damned thing won't start. Going to go cuss at it a while and see if that helps. What it really needs are new cap, points and rotor, but they won't ship until tomorrow (unavailable locally and 5 day special order).

adatesman
01-10-2013, 06:31 PM
Finally got the thing started and moved into the "garage", and figured I may as well try lifting the back end with the hoe. Worked much better than before, with the only movement coming from the pins. Going to give digging a try tomorrow, and hopefully both sides hold until it gets warm again.

Thanks for all the help, and hope someone found this interesting if not useful...

-Aric.

Btw, will likely pick this up again come Sping when I take a look at the pins. But right now I've got 250' of ditch to dig before it gets too cold...

Machine
01-10-2013, 11:11 PM
Looks fantastic! Truly proffesh looking job there. You keep fixing her up with great repairs like that and you're gonna fall in love with that machine and end up restoring her as a keeper.

RussZHC
01-10-2013, 11:16 PM
Sometimes the theoretical to practical is a big leap for me so, "Yes" I found this most interesting and useful.

Thank you.

Russ

Black Forest
01-11-2013, 01:38 AM
Great job on the repair. There ain't no way you will sell that backhoe! Tools are meant for buying not selling! I would sell my tractor before I would sell my excavator.

MrFluffy
01-11-2013, 07:10 AM
Btw, will likely pick this up again come Sping when I take a look at the pins. But right now I've got 250' of ditch to dig before it gets too cold...

Experience says that hose will let go at 5pm saturday when the people with the crimping equipment have just closed up :) When it does, resist the temptation to go look until youve shut the motor down etc. Once they've been working hard for a few hours, hydraulic oil leaks can burn and if you loose a hose end, they can whip about violently. And dont forget to think about your poor banksman if you have one helping too...

Are you new to backhoes or got a lot of stick time? seat time will fix dexterity if new, but if you get it bogged, you can walk it out on the front and rear buckets and test that repair properly with the machines weight. I've got pics of mine sank up past the axles walking out, first the front, then the rear bucket. Just makes a mess of the ground but you can backfill when it firms up later in the season or the drainage kicks in. And the other poster is right, too damn useful, you won't want to sell it after its done that ditch.

BigJohnT
01-11-2013, 07:11 AM
Finally got the thing started and moved into the "garage", and figured I may as well try lifting the back end with the hoe. Worked much better than before, with the only movement coming from the pins. Going to give digging a try tomorrow, and hopefully both sides hold until it gets warm again.

Thanks for all the help, and hope someone found this interesting if not useful...

-Aric.

Btw, will likely pick this up again come Sping when I take a look at the pins. But right now I've got 250' of ditch to dig before it gets too cold...

I love it when a plan comes together. Nice job on the repair! and happy digging. At least with a gasser you can start it in the winter, I have to box up the engine and pull out the space heater if the temps are below 45F to get my JD310a to start. She does live a sheltered life now even if it is outside.

John

Jon Heron
01-11-2013, 08:43 AM
Nice job! I hope it holds together for you!
I had to replace my weepers and seal my foundation a few years back, it was a much bigger and time consuming job then I had anticipated and a machine breakdown would have really rained on my parade!
Good luck!
Jon

Langanobob
01-11-2013, 09:15 AM
... At this point I'm not sure what all the take-it-to-a-professional talk was about, but whatever...

It looks like we underestimated you. I don't think a pro would've done as good of a job as you did.

Ian B
01-11-2013, 09:40 AM
Ok, you've done the easy bit - the welding - now it needs painting yellow before you can use it.

Best to remove the arm from the machine and take it to a professional sprayshop - this isn't a job for an amateur...

Ian

adatesman
01-11-2013, 12:06 PM
Ok, you've done the easy bit - the welding - now it needs painting yellow before you can use it.

Best to remove the arm from the machine and take it to a professional sprayshop - this isn't a job for an amateur...

Ian

Ian, literally sitting here having a full on belly laugh. Pretty sure soda came out my nose too... :-)

BigMike782
01-11-2013, 12:41 PM
Aric,I have to admit I wondered how this was going to come out but I also felt it was best to say nothing if I did not have anything positive to add(other than my post about being BBQd on the welding forums).
You did a bang up job!
You have a very valuable tool that should serve you well......now you need a trailer to haul it on and a smallish dump truck to pull both with:D

mike4
01-11-2013, 07:06 PM
You did a better job than some "pro's "because you own the machine and want it to work for at least this job that you bought it for.
Good work and keep us posted as to how it holds up after you ad the paint .
Michael

Black Forest
01-12-2013, 03:16 AM
We want at least pictures of you digging with your hoe. A video would actually be called for but if not possible we will settle for pictures. Go dig something and take a picture.

adatesman
01-12-2013, 09:37 AM
Will do, Black Forest. Gotta go fix the power steering pump first... Air's getting in the system somewhere (oil reservoir turns to foam immediately upon startup) and the thing's impossible to steer with a load in the front bucket. No amount of purging fixed the problem yesterday, so going to drain the system and crack open the pump today.

adatesman
01-12-2013, 10:21 AM
Hmmm.... Pulled the intake line off the PS pump and nothing came out. Half a minute later the hose finally filled. Given the pump puts out 6GPM I may have found the problem.

adatesman
01-12-2013, 02:34 PM
Crap. Might be longer than expected for you to get a video of it digging, Black Forest... Just buttoned up the power steering (which is apparently still sucking air, so likely the NLA pump is shot) and took it outside to let the oil on the manifold burn off, only to notice this on the other side of the hoe...

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe16.jpg

Sigh. And I thought my '59 TR3 was a pain in the neck.... :-(

Jon Heron
01-12-2013, 02:54 PM
You have luck like me man... One step forward and 2 back...
Grin and bear it, and think of the money you saved. :D
Cheers,
Jon

Peter.
01-12-2013, 03:00 PM
Weld some quarter angle over it :D

Black Forest
01-12-2013, 03:02 PM
Crap. Might be longer than expected for you to get a video of it digging, Black Forest... Just buttoned up the power steering (which is apparently still sucking air, so likely the NLA pump is shot) and took it outside to let the oil on the manifold burn off, only to notice this on the other side of the hoe...

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/backhoe16.jpg

Sigh. And I thought my '59 TR3 was a pain in the neck.... :-(

That loooks like a walk in the park compared to the other side. I know a weldor in your area that can fix that in a jiffy. His name is Adatesman. When he gets done welding that up for you it will be better than new. Want his number?

michigan doug
01-12-2013, 03:33 PM
Keep after it. We know you will prevail. Well, I knew all along you would make it...

Welding is like riding a bicycle. If you were ever good at it, you will never really forget.

Finest regards,

doug

914Wilhelm
01-12-2013, 03:55 PM
Guess I am concerned that if the boom is able to flex open this huge a space, then the metal on the other side of the boom is cracked as well. Are there any easy to use materials, suitable for home use, you can use for crack detection (other then eyeballs) for hidden cracks?


Guess the eyeballs will be fine after all. :(

Guido
01-12-2013, 04:17 PM
Get busy and finish the job, same procedures. Then drill quarter inch through holes, every inch along the centerline of the original cracks. Guaranteed to prevent future cracking, either side.

Ever see toilet paper tear apart on it's perforations?

outlawspeeder
01-12-2013, 11:23 PM
Well now, now how di that get there.... Sorry for the bad find, but better now than after you start digging. The plus side is you know how to fix it and some of the parts are still clean. I would take a good look around and see what else could use your handy work.

adatesman
02-18-2013, 02:37 PM
We want at least pictures of you digging with your hoe. A video would actually be called for but if not possible we will settle for pictures. Go dig something and take a picture.

Sorry it's taken so long, Black Forest... Took ages to get the power steering sorted out (combination of the pump needing not putting out any pressure and the parts diagram having the hoses reversed), so I only got to start digging yesterday. The main hydraulics are a bit weak (won't lift the back with just the hoe), but still managed to cut through several inches of macadam with surprising ease.

Anyway, here ya go...

http://www.shariconglobal.com/misc/hsm/ditch.jpg

Edit- btw, the steering repair entailed remachining the pump housing for less clearance on the gerotor, sleeving a badly corroded end on the spool valve, making a new check valve with a smaller orifice and then reassembling everything with new seals. Would have been an easy fix had the parts diagram been correct for the hose routing... The way it's shown the check valve in the spool assembly is always open, which meant there was no way for it to ever build pressure. What a PITA.

MrFluffy
02-18-2013, 02:54 PM
Sorry it's taken so long, Black Forest... Took ages to get the power steering sorted out (combination of the pump needing not putting out any pressure and the parts diagram having the hoses reversed), so I only got to start digging yesterday. The main hydraulics are a bit weak (won't lift the back with just the hoe), but still managed to cut through several inches of macadam with surprising ease.

Anyway, here ya go...
If you come across any more challenging stuff, the trick is to get the edge of the bucket fingers under the edge and lift it upwards using the bucket as a pivot if you must. Its weaker in that plane than trying to push it into compacted ground and easier on the machine to use the craw to do the work.
Works great for pulling up heavy concrete slabs if you don't have a pecker.

adatesman
02-18-2013, 02:56 PM
Exactly how I did it, MrFluffy. :-)

Black Forest
02-18-2013, 03:53 PM
Great that you posted pictures. Not a bad ditch either.

BigMike782
07-24-2013, 09:20 AM
This will sound bad no matter how it is said.......how is your hoe repair holding up?

adatesman
07-24-2013, 11:10 AM
Holding up great, BigMike. Only trouble I've run into is finding somewhere to put all the dirt! :D

Well, that and having to cut apart/rebuild two of the hydraulic cylinders. For whatever reason they used ones that were crimped on the rod end. Total PITA, as to replace the seals I had to cut the outer sleeve off a couple inches from the end and weld on a tube I machined to allow it to be disassembled/reassembled should the need arise later. Worked well, but was a pain.

BigMike782
07-24-2013, 03:06 PM
Glad to hear it's holding up.......better than the rest of the machine it sounds like:D